Wexford says goodbye to 1 and 2 cent coins.

McLoughlin

Buy Buy the 1 and 2 cent coins and prepare for the rip off .

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/town-to-be-guinea-pig-in-trial-to-get-rid-of-small-change-29432169.html

deadybai

what a load of balony

NothingMan

This is what's done in Australia and it's a great idea. If your shopping comes to 65.37 you get back 65.35 if it's 65.38 you get back 65.40, it all works out in the scheme of things and you no longer have shrapnel you can't even use in a vending machine. My 1's and 2's usually gather until I buy something at a self service til in Tesco and can bung 'em all in in bulk and I have a heavy bulky wallet til then. Pain in the arse.

Bring it on I say.

bmaxi

NothingMan wrote: »

This is what's done in Australia and it's a great idea. If your shopping comes to 65.37 you get back 65.35 if it's 65.38 you get back 65.40, it all works out in the scheme of things and you no longer have shrapnel you can't even use in a vending machine. My 1's and 2's usually gather until I buy something at a self service til in Tesco and can bung 'em all in in bulk and I have a heavy bulky wallet til then. Pain in the arse.

Bring it on I say.

History does not suggest there will be any rounding down. I can remember two occasions in the last forty odd years when something similar happened, the introduction of decimal currency ( the biggest rip off of all time) and the withdrawal of the half pence coin, on both occasions prices went only one way.

stargazer 68

According to the news this morning - the way I understood it - was that prices will not be changed but the rounding down will be done at the till. So if your shopping comes to 20.24 you will pay 20.20

NothingMan

bmaxi wrote: »

History does not suggest there will be any rounding down. I can remember two occasions in the last forty odd years when something similar happened, the introduction of decimal currency ( the biggest rip off of all time) and the withdrawal of the half pence coin, on both occasions prices went only one way.

I think you're misunderstanding the proposal. Prices are not being rounded up or down to the nearest 5 cents. Prices remain the same old 99.99. It's only when you pay that it will be rounded up or down depending on whether your total lands on .01 or .02c (rounded down) or .03 or .04 (rounded up). So half the time you'll lose 2c and half the time you'll gain 2c. This will not effect the individual price of any item like the way it did during your examples or the Euro changeover when prices were hiked while people were confused.

NothingMan

Dovies wrote: »

So if your shopping comes to 20.24 you will pay 20.20

Well if it's 20.24 you'll pay 20.25, if it was 20.22 you'd pay 20.20. Sometimes you'll lose 1 or 2c sometimes gain. Long odds say you'll end up even.

bmaxi

Dovies wrote: »

According to the news this morning - the way I understood it - was that prices will not be changed but the rounding down will be done at the till. So if your shopping comes to 20.24 you will pay 20.20

Who's going to absorb that loss? 4c may not seem a lot but imagine 4c on a thousand transactions a day over a year, which is not impossible in the likes of Tesco, Dunnes or Pettitts. That's a tidy sum to write off so you can bet retailers will be compensating for that.

oldyouth

Nobody will lose out. What do you do with your 1c or 2c coins anyway. Possibly the only downturn will be in the collection boxes at tills

runawaybishop

Was the article really that hard to understand? No individual prices will be changed, only your bill total. The max you will lose or gain is 2 cent per transaction, not 4

NothingMan

bmaxi wrote: »

Who's going to absorb that loss? 4c may not seem a lot but imagine 4c on a thousand transactions a day over a year, which is not impossible in the likes of Tesco, Dunnes or Pettitts. That's a tidy sum to write off so you can bet retailers will be compensating for that.

You're really not reading anyones posts proerly. No one gets a loss. Sometimes we get 1 or 2c loss or gain, sometimes the Shop. It will all even out on the long run and no compensation will be needed.

McLoughlin

Wait till the confusion happens at a register in Town. Thank god I don't work in a shop

oldyouth

The one thing that people are not considering is that when a price, say €19.57, is rounded down to €19.55, the customer can still pay up to 50c in 1c coins. It is still legal tender

bmaxi

NothingMan wrote: »

You're really not reading anyones posts proerly. No one gets a loss. Sometimes we get 1 or 2c loss or gain, sometimes the Shop. It will all even out on the long run and no compensation will be needed.

My point is that retailers will preempt this so there will be no possibility of a loss, the consumer will pay on both ends. That's always been the way of things, you surely can't be naive enough to think that fair play is even in the vocabulary of the retailers.

TheChizler

oldyouth wrote: »

The one thing that people are not considering is that when a price, say €19.57, is rounded down to €19.55, the customer can still pay up to 50c in 1c coins. It is still legal tender

Ah but the shop won't be giving out 1 and 2 c coins so the customer's supply will run out!

DubTony

bmaxi wrote: »

My point is that retailers will preempt this so there will be no possibility of a loss, the consumer will pay on both ends. That's always been the way of things, you surely can't be naive enough to think that fair play is even in the vocabulary of the retailers.

As one of those greedy retailers you despise so much, I tried this in early 2003 a little over a year after the euro changeover. I was so disappointed at the crap my staff had to put up with that I dropped the idea. The guy who would come in at 9am was happy to take the extra 2c change, but when he came in at lunchtime, he complained he was being ripped off. People who never checked their change at all, suddenly became frugal consumer advocates threatening to report me to somebody or other despite the signs all over the shop explaining how it worked. The whole experiment lasted a week. What was most annoying was the number of moaners and complainers who later said it was a good idea. I'd say this can really only work on a regional or national basis, but definitely not individually.

oldyouth

TheChizler wrote: »

Ah but the shop won't be giving out 1 and 2 c coins so the customer's supply will run out!

You know that many shops in Wexford will still hand them out, as they are legally entitled to do

allthedoyles

Great idea , but as said earlier in thread , charities collection boxes may suffer.

Would have been better if Central Bank decided to abolish 1c coins completely , and maybe further down the line , abolish 2c coins .

Bank of Ireland do not take any coins in business lodgements ,so I welcome this initative .

As Dubtony said above , there will be moaners , and as it is limited to Wexford town alone , you will find some people will now argue is Drinagh in Wexford town or maybe Rocklands .

NothingMan

bmaxi wrote: »

My point is that retailers will preempt this so there will be no possibility of a loss, the consumer will pay on both ends. That's always been the way of things, you surely can't be naive enough to think that fair play is even in the vocabulary of the retailers.

I completely disagree and would not call it naivity either. It's a simple scheme to do away with pointless low value coins, nothing more. I wouldn't be surprised if a few (probably none) small independant retailers who mark their own prices round up product to the nearest 5c but chains and shops were prices are set at office level won't.

I would say it's cynical to think they will, in fact I doubt most even could if they wanted as price checks are rampant in these times.

bmaxi

NothingMan wrote: »

I completely disagree and would not call it naivity either. It's a simple scheme to do away with pointless low value coins, nothing more. I wouldn't be surprised if a few (probably none) small independant retailers who mark their own prices round up product to the nearest 5c but chains and shops were prices are set at office level won't.

I would say it's cynical to think they will, in fact I doubt most even could if they wanted as price checks are rampant in these times.

Nothing to do with whether or not they are low value coins, simply the fact that if and when this plan goes live, the system guarantees the retailer will not suffer a loss, the consumer is not in the position to adjust prices to their benefit. Yes I do consider it naive to suggest that multiples will not increase prices to head off any loss, whoever loses it will not be them.
Price checks on what, there are few, if any, controlled prices so who would be making these checks and on what?

bmaxi

DubTony wrote: »

As one of those greedy retailers you despise so much, I tried this in early 2003 a little over a year after the euro changeover. I was so disappointed at the crap my staff had to put up with that I dropped the idea. The guy who would come in at 9am was happy to take the extra 2c change, but when he came in at lunchtime, he complained he was being ripped off. People who never checked their change at all, suddenly became frugal consumer advocates threatening to report me to somebody or other despite the signs all over the shop explaining how it worked. The whole experiment lasted a week. What was most annoying was the number of moaners and complainers who later said it was a good idea. I'd say this can really only work on a regional or national basis, but definitely not individually.

It will work on a national or regional basis because we will have no choice. After the trial in Wexford the Central Bank will tell us that it was a success, there will be no data to support this because it is virtually impossible to collect. There will be a vox pop among major retailers who will say people were in favour, the trial will go nationwide with the same result, mission accomplished.

DubTony

Seriously, if anyone thinks this is going to cost them a fortune they're not living in the real world. Even if retailers did round up individual prices to the next 5 or zero, will it really make that much of a difference?

Lets say you spend €200 a week and the average cost of an item is €3. That's purchases of less than 70 items. So if its rounded up by an average of 3c on every item that's an increase of about €2.00 a week. That works out at about 1%. But retailers won't do it. Most single item purchases (packet of crisps, bar of chocolate, bottle of Coke) are already priced at the 5c or 10c price point anyway. Clothing and shoes havent had cents in their pricing for years. And petrol retailers get enough stick already without doing something as stupid as rounding up per litre.

When VAT was reduced from 13.5% to 9% there was a huge fuss about some businesses not reducing prices. If it was such a big issue, why is the Insomnia Coffee chain still in business? Because most people don't give a damn. I'd say the majority of people will be happy with this move, and don't think that all retailers are so stupid as to try to increase their margin by a tiny amount by pissing off some of their customers.

DubTony

bmaxi wrote: »

It will work on a national or regional basis because we will have no choice. After the trial in Wexford the Central Bank will tell us that it was a success, there will be no data to support this because it is virtually impossible to collect. There will be a vox pop among major retailers who will say people were in favour, the trial will go nationwide with the same result, mission accomplished.

After a few days of watching the recalculation on the till, most people will not even think about it anymore. I just spent €89.64 in Aldi. Would anyone be bothered getting €10.35 change instead of €10.36 out of the €100. Even a full jar of 1c and 2c coins isn't worth sorting and counting. Many people use the machine in the local shop and pay anything up to 12% for the privilege. So instead of taking the things home and dumping them in a jar we'd be financially better off leaving a penny or two behind in the shop.
Meanwhile the guy ahead of me in the supermarket would have gotten an extra 2c in his change. Whoop-de-doo for him. I'm sure he'd rush out to tell all his friends.

allthedoyles

Should we scrap 1 cent and 2 cent coins?

The journal are doing a poll on this and here are the results to date

bmaxi

DubTony wrote: »

Seriously, if anyone thinks this is going to cost them a fortune they're not living in the real world. Even if retailers did round up individual prices to the next 5 or zero, will it really make that much of a difference?

Lets say you spend €200 a week and the average cost of an item is €3. That's purchases of less than 70 items. So if its rounded up by an average of 3c on every item that's an increase of about €2.00 a week. That works out at about 1%. But retailers won't do it. Most single item purchases (packet of crisps, bar of chocolate, bottle of Coke) are already priced at the 5c or 10c price point anyway. Clothing and shoes havent had cents in their pricing for years. And petrol retailers get enough stick already without doing something as stupid as rounding up per litre.

When VAT was reduced from 13.5% to 9% there was a huge fuss about some businesses not reducing prices. If it was such a big issue, why is the Insomnia Coffee chain still in business? Because most people don't give a damn. I'd say the majority of people will be happy with this move, and don't think that all retailers are so stupid as to try to increase their margin by a tiny amount by pissing off some of their customers.

You can bet your sweet fanny that Insomnia don't return accounts showing them charging VAT at 13.5%, nor will they issue a receipt showing 13.5% VAT, these are just the sort of practices I was referring to, the taxpayer takes a hit on both counts.
It's not because people don't give a damn about prices, if people didn't give a damn about prices the internet would not be thriving while the High Street is struggling. People feel helpless to do anything about it, they are ill informed of their rights, those organisations which are supposed to provide assistance like the NCA, are big on talk small on action, people are ill informed as to where they can complain and yes, I agree, we don't complain enough.
If retailers are so committed to not pissing their customers off, why don't the members of RGDATA. along with the Vintners and other representatives of the retail industry, collectively state they will only round down prices as a goodwill gesture? If it's such small change, that can't be such a big deal, plus they can always sneak them up again when attention is off.

BarryD

Does it not depend to some extent on the type of retailer and to what extent they make sales of single items rather than multiple goods? A lot of stock these days is price pointed €0.99, €4.99 etc. etc. If the retailer tends to sell a lot of individual items like this, then clearly they will benefit to some extent. The producer will want to keep the stock price pointed at the .99 or whatever level -it's meaningless difference but effective psychologically. No producer will want to see their €4.99 products, priced at €5.00

DubTony

bmaxi wrote: »

You can bet your sweet fanny that Insomnia don't return accounts showing them charging VAT at 13.5%, nor will they issue a receipt showing 13.5% VAT, these are just the sort of practices I was referring to, the taxpayer takes a hit on both counts.
It's not because people don't give a damn about prices, if people didn't give a damn about prices the internet would not be thriving while the High Street is struggling. People feel helpless to do anything about it, they are ill informed of their rights, those organisations which are supposed to provide assistance like the NCA, are big on talk small on action, people are ill informed as to where they can complain and yes, I agree, we don't complain enough.
If retailers are so committed to not pissing their customers off, why don't the members of RGDATA. along with the Vintners and other representatives of the retail industry, collectively state they will only round down prices as a goodwill gesture? If it's such small change, that can't be such a big deal, plus they can always sneak them up again when attention is off.

Firstly Insomnia would be returning 9%, not 13.5% as per the vat reduction. They also aren't required to state VAT on retail receipts as per European legislation. You seem to think Insomnia is making false VAT returns. I doubt this is the case and is totally irrelevant to this topic. My point was that even though Bobby Kerr refused to reduce prices, the public (should that be taxpayer?) continued to give him their business despite the huge negative publicity his company received. Put it this way, the free market spoke and it wasn't bothered.

As for members of RGDATA and the vintners associations making a grand statement; I don't see how that can happen. (BTW this wont affect pubs as they've already adjusted their prices to do away with 1c and 2c coins). Members of these groups are all independent businesses and make decisions based on their businesses requirements. Having said that, some will try to get an edge by doing exactly what you've suggested, but will realise that it won't give them an advantage as most people don't care about whether they get that extra penny or 2c back.
And I've no idea why you've brought the NCA into the conversation. Who's going to complain about being short changed by a penny or 2?

Finally, I just mentioned to my wife that Wexford was the "experiment" town and what they are doing. Her reply was "Really! Are you putting the kids to bed or am I?". I think this kind of indifference will prevail.

Shelflife

Bmaxi , you're missing the point. The individual product pricing will remain the same . It's only the final bill that will be rounded up or down. So on the law of averages it will balance out.

As a retailer I would take issue with your disparaging remarks and the way that we all get tarred with the sane rip off brush.

bmaxi

Shelflife wrote: »

Bmaxi , you're missing the point. The individual product pricing will remain the same . It's only the final bill that will be rounded up or down. So on the law of averages it will balance out.

As a retailer I would take issue with your disparaging remarks and the way that we all get tarred with the sane rip off brush.

I'm not missing the point, I know what the plan is. My point is that, as usual retailers in a situation like this will take the opportunity to increase prices to counteract any possible loss to them, or as in the case of Insomnia, not lower them, there is a prime example of what happens in practice.
I don't really care if you take issue or not, there are ample anecdotal and recorded instances of this happening, if you are the exception then kudos to you.

bmaxi

DubTony wrote: »

Firstly Insomnia would be returning 9%, not 13.5% as per the vat reduction. They also aren't required to state VAT on retail receipts as per European legislation. You seem to think Insomnia is making false VAT returns. I doubt this is the case and is totally irrelevant to this topic. My point was that even though Bobby Kerr refused to reduce prices, the public (should that be taxpayer?) continued to give him their business despite the huge negative publicity his company received. Put it this way, the free market spoke and it wasn't bothered.

As for members of RGDATA and the vintners associations making a grand statement; I don't see how that can happen. (BTW this wont affect pubs as they've already adjusted their prices to do away with 1c and 2c coins). Members of these groups are all independent businesses and make decisions based on their businesses requirements. Having said that, some will try to get an edge by doing exactly what you've suggested, but will realise that it won't give them an advantage as most people don't care about whether they get that extra penny or 2c back.
And I've no idea why you've brought the NCA into the conversation. Who's going to complain about being short changed by a penny or 2?

Finally, I just mentioned to my wife that Wexford was the "experiment" town and what they are doing. Her reply was "Really! Are you putting the kids to bed or am I?". I think this kind of indifference will prevail.

They can make collective representations to Government on other issues, why have a representative body and not exert influenceor make collective decisions
From the outset my point has not been the shortchanging of anybody but the fact that the removal of the lower value coins will inevitably lead to higher prices prices because retailers will take the opportunity to increase prices.
Incidentally, I have on more than one occasion, been in a situation where I bought an item with a price ending in .99 and been told by the cashier that they had no pennies and could they owe me a penny, I have always suggested that they could give me 2p/c and I'd owe them a penny. Strangely enough this offer was never accepted and efforts were then made to find a penny, managers have even been called. It would appear then that some people care about being short changed.

hypersonic

sure why stop at 2c just round everything up or down to a euro, it all even out in the end.

it's just another way to hiding inflation/falling living standards.