fitting RCBO on 9.5kW pumped triton shower

.G.

cluelez wrote: »

Yep I confirm that on the top of an RCBO there is earth leakage protection installed. (I know for sure).

Thanks.

The RCBO does the earth leakage protection as well as the Overload and Short circuit protection.

blueterrier

superg wrote: »

Not sure what your point is and the new rules are discussed in a seperate thread.My point is about the argument in this thread about whether or not a 40a rcbo is suitable for this circuit.

You'll find my view on the pointless new legislation in the other thread.

I suppose my point is that the best thing to do is get a qualified person to undertake electrical work.

blueterrier

superg wrote: »

Not sure what your point is and the new rules are discussed in a seperate thread.My point is about the argument in this thread about whether or not a 40a rcbo is suitable for this circuit.

You'll find my view on the pointless new legislation in the other thread.

can you link the other thread please?

.G.

blueterrier wrote: »

can you link the other thread please?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056989062

Sleeper12

I trained in Triton UK. It was a 2 day course on electric shower repair and installation. They were very vague on cable & rcbo size. They say 45am. They also said you might need 16mm cable in certain circumstances (it'd want to be a pretty long run for that!).
They now are recommending 10mm cable on all 8.5kw showers.

tomdempsey200

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

They were very vague on cable & rcbo size.

no surprise there really

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

no surprise there really

No surprise at all.
They let the electrictricans argue it out.
The new regulations are great. No more diy chancers aloud work on a fusebox.
:-)

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

No surprise at all.
They let the electrictricans argue it out.
The new regulations are great. No more diy chancers aloud work on a fusebox.
:-)

You're not allowed speed on motorways either.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I trained in Triton UK. It was a 2 day course on electric shower repair and installation. They were very vague on cable & rcbo size. They say 45am. They also said you might need 16mm cable in certain circumstances (it'd want to be a pretty long run for that!).
They now are recommending 10mm cable on all 8.5kw showers.

Triton supervior fella out lookin at new shower fitted in parents house last year. It was fitted by bathroom installers.

Plumber had plumbed shower from pipe feeding immersion cylinder. Shower didnt work. It was main cutout gone in shower, which is a part that needs replacing. Clearly it was gone before shower even tested.

Triton fella said it was plumbers fault, and overheat link blew because shower needs supply direct from attic tank. Do you think he was correct? You would think he knew what he was talking about.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Triton supervior fella out lookin at new shower fitted in parents house last year. It was fitted by bathroom installers.

Plumber had plumbed shower from pipe feeding immersion cylinder. Shower didnt work. It was main cutout gone in shower, which is a part that needs replacing. Clearly it was gone before shower even tested.

Triton fella said it was plumbers fault, and overheat link blew because shower needs supply direct from attic tank. Do you think he was correct? You would think he knew what he was talking about.

I know how triton operate very well so I'm sure it was repaired under the warranty even though it was installed incorrectly. I'm guessing that you are talking about the Tco. I have taken new triton & Mira showers out of the box and the Tco is faulty at time of fitting. I would replace the Tco at my own expense, not because triton wouldn't replace it under warranty but because I want to get paid that day for my work.
Once I had a brand new shower, installed it & the solenoid & Tco needed replacing.
I have to stress it rarely happens. We'd fit / replace close to 1000 showers per year (all we do are showers now) & I might have to charge 10 parts at time of fitting.
In answer to your question, in my opinion the Tco is the most sensitive part in the shower & can blow at any time (sometimes while changing an element) & it could have blown after you installed shower or it could easily have been a faulty one from the factory floor.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I know how triton operate very well so I'm sure it was repaired under the warranty even though it was installed incorrectly. I'm guessing that you are talking about the Tco. I have taken new triton & Mira showers out of the box and the Tco is faulty at time of fitting. I would replace the Tco at my own expense, not because triton wouldn't replace it under warranty but because I want to get paid that day for my work.
Once I had a brand new shower, installed it & the solenoid & Tco needed replacing.
I have to stress it rarely happens. We'd fit / replace close to 1000 showers per year (all we do are showers now) & I might have to charge 10 parts at time of fitting.
In answer to your question, in my opinion the Tco is the most sensitive part in the shower & can blow at any time (sometimes while changing an element)

Yes the cut out. Even if the shower is switched on with no water connected, that wont blow the cut out, since the pressure switch wont switch in the elements. The pressure switch is what brings on the elements when the start switch opens the solenoid and switches on the pump. No water, no elements on.

The thermal cutout is last line of defence should the the pressure switch fail and bring on elements with no water pressure. The other thermal cutout will cut out its part of the element then, and also/or the main cutout will disconnect all.

And the shower will operate perfectly fine when connected from the 3/4 inch feed to the cylinder. I know some will say it wont, simply because they are told that. I connect them to the attic tank myself, but a 3/4 inch pipe reducing to a 1/2 inch not capable? Its over double the size of 1/2 inch. I know they will say the 3/4 is feeding other items. But the shower would be fine. Certainly wouldnt be blowing thermal devices.

& it could have blown after you installed shower or it could easily have been a faulty one from the factory floor.

I didnt install it.

In my opinion, these shower manufacturers should install a hold on relay into all their showers, so when there is a power cut, or for use with priority units, the shower wont restart when power returns. It only needs a small relay contact in series with the start button, and have a momentary start button, and a stop button.

Sleeper12

Bathroom installers took a feed of another pipe instead of running a separate feed from the tank in the attic? They are obviously cowboys. If they were that lazy I'd be getting an electrician out to check the wiring.

Again though I'll say it could have been a faulty Tco or it could have happened at the time of installation by careless installers. But either way Earthridge would have replaced it under warranty even though your warranty is void because it is piped wrong. You are so lucky it's a triton & not mira. Mira wouldn't honour a warranty on a shower that is incorrectly installed.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Bathroom installers took a feed of another pipe instead of running a separate feed from the tank in the attic? They are obviously cowboys. If they were that lazy I'd be getting an electrician out to check the wiring.

Maybe you can point out what the problem is doing it though? Just as a matter of interest.

Triton also recommend switching the isolator switch off after every use. Do you agree with that too, or do you have your own views independent of theirs?

Like I said, the hold on relay would again mean they dont have to recommend switching off isolator switch after every use, which in my independent opinion is not a good idea to switch on and off several times a day.

Again though I'll say it could have been a faulty Tco or it could have happened at the time of installation by careless installers.

Careless installers? Yea, a small thermal fuse failing due to careless installers. That would indicate a rubbish component, since such a device should survive falling from a skyscraper. Let alone mounting a unit on a wall.

But either way Earthridge would have replaced it under warranty even though your warranty is void because it is piped wrong. You are so lucky it's a triton & not mira. Mira wouldn't honour a warranty on a shower that is incorrectly installed.

Im so lucky? Perhaps a proper read of what im posting might be in order:)

Again, I would ask you now, what damage could piping it from the 3/4 inch pipe do, and a nice clear explanation of your opinion, instead of what triton would say.....

Sleeper12

Ok first off is simple: Isolator switch (pull cord switch) is there by law. It is there by law so that you can switch it off after each shower. This stops any power going to your shower & greatly reducing the risk of fire ( the same way you should turn off the cooker switch on the wall in your kitchen). Weather you use it is up to you but why else is it there? the string annoys everyone.

A triton T90 or mira elite are pumped electric showers. So they have pumps inside them. Pumps these pumps are designed to have constant pressure coming into them. A half inch pipe directly from the tank gives constant pressure. It never changes. Taking a feed from a 3/4" pipe that is feeding other things does not give constant pressure. This can damage the pump. It can also damage your heating can (element) & in rare instances cause the heating can to explode due to pressure fluctuations. This though rare is very dangerous. Imagine standing in your shower, shower running, shampoo in your hair. You hear this VERY loud bang & the water that was in your heating can is now all over the inside of your 8.5kw shower. At this stage I'd be wondering if the cowboy installer that made a lazy mistake with a half inch pipe (he had an instruction manual to follow but didn't) had made any lazy mistakes with my fusebox. Is this going to trip out as it should or am I going to smell like fried chicken when they bury me?
All makes of pumped electric showers insist on a half inch supply directly from the tank. This is not choose option 1 or option 2. They tell you exactly how to do it. They even give diagrams. All power showers must have a seperate cold from the tank.

If I were you I'd be annoyed with the bathroom installers who didn't do what you paid them to do and not with Triton who replaced the part even though the installer voided the warranty.

I do not work for Triton & never have. I trained at Triton UK, Aqualisa UK and Mira UK. I have nothing to do with these companies.

Bruthal

Now I know manufacturers have their recommendations, and in this instance its to pipe showers straight to the attic tank. That`s fair enough.

But remember, my point is, that will not blow a thermal fuse, like triton said it did. this thing about them fuses being highly sensitive sounds like either...

A: Fuses are rubbish

Or

B: They tell everyone that, to enable blaming everything on them failing.

I never once seen one fail on any showers I installed, once the shower actually ran on first switch on. So they cant be that tempermental. If they were, any limescaled shower would blow them, and we all know that doesnt happen. They simply run too hot, or cycle with the other thermal cutout operating on and off on half the element.

I once or twice disconnected the pump for commissioning. I bet you dont recommend that either, since they dont mention it in their book.

Sleeper12

I sell these parts (TCO) online and I have to test each one with a multi meter before posting because so many get damaged by the installer ( first thing everyone does is squeeze the bottom of it).
But look that is neither here or there. Were you not happy with the back up service Triton gave you? You had no warranty at all and yet they still repaired the shower for free. This is why Triton have over 3/4 of the Irish & UK market. Mira would have charged you €120 call out & about €25 for a new TCO

I just don't understand why you are not giving out about the installers? They voided the warranty. You are giving out about Triton & yet they repaired your shower for free.

My advice to anyone get qualified tradesmen for every job & insist on seeing their insurance. If you have to pay someone else an extra €20 and they have insurance then pay the extra. At least now it is illegal for anyone but electrician to work on the fusebox.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Ok first off is simple: Isolator switch (pull cord switch) is there by law. It is there by law so that you can switch it off after each shower. This stops any power going to your shower & greatly reducing the risk of fire ( the same way you should turn off the cooker switch on the wall in your kitchen). Weather you use it is up to you but why else is it there? the string annoys everyone.

An isolator is there to service the equipment, so it can not be energized while the person is working on it. That is the function of an isolator.

A triton T90 or mira elite are pumped electric showers. So they have pumps inside them. Pumps these pumps are designed to have constant pressure coming into them. A half inch pipe directly from the tank gives constant pressure. It never changes. Taking a feed from a 3/4" pipe that is feeding other things does not give constant pressure. This can damage the pump.

Constant pressure coming into them or else damaged? Interesting.

You understand about static and dynamic pressures then?

Since the temperature is governed purely by by flow rate for any given element status, the flow rate, and hence the dynamic pressure through the pump, can vary greatly during normal operation.

It can also damage your heating can (element) & in rare instances cause the heating can to explode due to pressure fluctuations. This though rare is very dangerous. Imagine standing in your shower, shower running, shampoo in your hair. You hear this VERY loud bang & the water that was in your heating can is now all over the inside of your 8.5kw shower. At this stage I'd be wondering if the cowboy installer that made a lazy mistake with a half inch pipe (he had an instruction manual to follow but didn't) had made any lazy mistakes with my fusebox. Is this going to trip out as it should or am I going to smell like fried chicken when they bury me?

A head of water from a tank a meter or 2 above the shower causing exploding metal heating cans? I call BS on that one:pac:

All makes of pumped electric showers insist on a half inch supply directly from the tank. This is not choose option 1 or option 2. They tell you exactly how to do it. They even give diagrams. All power showers must have a seperate cold from the tank.

Yes, and they tell you to switch off the isolator after every use, which is bad practice imo. They say it simply to cover themselves.
In this day with people using priority units etc, the hold on relay setup should be a must.

If I were you I'd be annoyed with the bathroom installers who didn't do what you paid them to do and not with Triton who replaced the part even though the installer voided the warranty.

If i were you, Id read my posts properly. If I needed a shower installed, Id install it myself, and connect to the tank. But I do, in my own common sense world, realise full well that connecting to the 3/4 pipe leaving the tank will cause no problems with blown thermal fuses, or exploding heating cans.

I do not work for Triton & never have. I trained at Triton UK, Aqualisa UK and Mira UK. I have nothing to do with these companies.

Yes you said. A 2 day course.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

But look that is neither here or there. Were you not happy with the back up service Triton gave you? You had no warranty at all and yet they still repaired the shower for free. This is why Triton have over 3/4 of the Irish & UK market.

I just dont know what you are reading. It was parents shower, not my one.

Mira would have charged you €120 call out & about €25 for a new TCO

Yes, charging for something that was clearly not caused by plumbing. Hence their market position compared to triton.

I just don't understand why you are not giving out about the installers? They voided the warranty. You are giving out about Triton & yet they repaired your shower for free.

I didnt give out about triton. I questioned their engineer supervisor claiming the plumbing caused the thermal fuse to go. Clearly that should not happen even with no water connected, so that was rubbish. That was my point, nothing about triton or plumbers. He didnt know the basics, yet was the supervisor. Just kept quoting triton policy.

My advice to anyone get qualified tradesmen for every job & insist on seeing their insurance. If you have to pay someone else an extra €20 and they have insurance then pay the extra. At least now it is illegal for anyone but electrician to work on the fusebox.

It is illegal for most electricians to work on the fusebox as well. Should I call an outside electrician to connect a cable into my own fuseboard?

Sleeper12

Please see photo below of heating can that exploded due to not having dedicated half inch pipe connected directly to the tank.

Bruthal

So, explain exactly, in technical terms how that happened due to not having a dedicated water supply.

Does this mean that if the attic tank stops filling, or the shower filter becomes blocked, that the can is going to explode? Complete rubbish

Because I can not think of anything that will cause that apart from a badly clogged heating can, so badly clogged with scale, that the outlet hose is blocked, and it burst.

And that will not be changed no matter how the water is supplied.


All I see in your link a photo and nothing more. And an extraordinarily poor photo at that, hardly the type taken by proper investigators.

Sleeper12

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. You don't like what Triton have to say. You don't like what Aqualisa have to say. You don't like what Mira have to say. You don't like what I have to say.

You fitted a few showers & you think you know something. I gave up all plumbing work years ago & this is all I do. I am certified by the three biggest shower manufacturers in the UK. I install, repair & replace up to 1000 showers every year. I see heating cans like the one above on average once a year but triton would see hundreds every year because this usually happens in the first few years & they cover maintenance for the first 2years.
At the end of the day whoever incorrectly installed the shower in your parents bathroom are the ones at fault. You should name & shame them here.
Triton told you why the shower broke & still repaired it for free. If they refused to repair it I can see why you may disagree with their answer. Why would they lie & still do it for free.

I'm not sure what you do for a living but I'd strongly suggest you stay away from showers because your attitude of you being right & the experts (manufacturers) being wrong is scary. There are reasons why in the instruction manual they tell you how to do it. As I say it's not multiple choice. It should be fitted exactly as they describe.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. You don't like what Triton have to say. You don't like what Aqualisa have to say. You don't like what Mira have to say. You don't like what I have to say.

No, I simply asked you for a technical explanation of how the cans in these showers "exploded"

In all honesty, what your saying is, "I have not got a clue, but this is what my book says"

You fitted a few showers & you think you know something. I gave up all plumbing work years ago & this is all I do. I am certified by the three biggest shower manufacturers in the UK.

Yes, I know....... Quite the expert shown by this quote below:D

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I trained in Triton UK. It was a 2 day course on electric shower repair and installation.

I fitted more than a few. Didnt need any 2 day course either. But you entirely completely missed the point from the beginning.

I install, repair & replace up to 1000 showers every year. I see heating cans like the one above on average once a year

Yet you cant give a technical description as to the cause, just keep quoting recommendations. You wont because you cant. I mean, its a heating element in a can, with overheat cutout and pressure switches, and yet you tell me unless its plumbed directly. Perhaps you should do the 3 day course next time.

but triton would see hundreds every year because this usually happens in the first few years & they cover maintenance for the first 2years.
At the end of the day whoever incorrectly installed the shower in your parents bathroom are the ones at fault. You should name & shame them here.

Name and shame who? The shower came faulty. The technical supervisor was lost after 2 or 3 questions, like yourself, he kept mentioning recommendations. And they were extremely simple questions.

Triton told you why the shower broke & still repaired it for free. If they refused to repair it I can see why you may disagree with their answer. Why would they lie & still do it for free.

No. He was not able to tell me why the thermal fuse went. Because he had to agree that even with no water, it should not blow. At least he understood that much. Do you understand that??? You dont seem to.

Showers are unbelievably simple devices. Dont try to believe that just because they seem complex to the average man on the street, that they are. They are ultra simple.

I'm not sure what you do for a living but I'd strongly suggest you stay away from showers because your attitude of you being right & the experts (manufacturers) being wrong is scary.

Whats scary is your inability to answer a simple question. Will you answer it this time???

There are reasons why in the instruction manual they tell you how to do it. As I say it's not multiple choice. It should be fitted exactly as they describe.

And if its not, the can explodes, right.

So then, again, explain fully and completely why the can has its lid open in that blurred photo? Surely it cant be too hard to explain. Im betting you cant though.

Bruthal

So come on tpm man, explain what I ask.

1. How does a shower fed by a 3/4 to half inch run, cause showers to explode.

2. Why do they not explode when the filter is blocked, which will drastically reduce water into the pump?

3. Why did they not explode when attic tanks reduce in head height due to no water into tank for whatever reason?

4: How does a thermal fuse blow on a shower fed from a 3/4 inch T off, when in fact even with no water plumbed to the shower, the thermal fuse will not blow simply because the elements wont come on with lack of water

5. Would it surprise you to know that limescale is the biggest destroyer of showers?

6: Why is the pressure lower in winter than summer for the same temperature output?

7: What factors govern the litres per minute output of an electric shower?

You see, no one is disputing any of the problems you say you see.

But all I really would like to know, is how the can "exploded" in that less than conclusive photo you dug up. Its a very simple question, which so far you evaded.

Sleeper12

You don't even know the name of the part that failed or its purpose. It is called a Tco short for thermal cut out. A Tco is designed to blow when the can gets too hot. This can happen with water in it or if it is dry.

Yes I have done a 2 day triton course & a 2 day Aqualisa course & a 3 day mira course. I also do a refresher course with these manufacturers every 2 years. I strongly suggest that you attend some of these. You'd be very surprised how much there is to electric power showers.

You seem to be real old school diy handyman. Education & training makes us better tradesmen. Thinking you know more than manufacturers is wrong.

I can see why your parents got in strangers to Plumb their bathroom and shower. They would know you better than me.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You don't even know the name of the part that failed or its purpose.

You are getting a little too silly now.

It is called a Tco short for thermal cut out.

I called it the main cutout. Is this incorrect? Funny that. The manual, (your bible):) calls it the thermal cutout (main). Lets not argue over words, unless this is your method of discrediting points of course.

A Tco is designed to blow when the can gets too hot. This can happen with water in it or if it is dry.

Therefore, it can happen whether the shower is plumbed directly or not. So it can not be ascertained that plumbing it from the 3/4 caused it. And in a brand new shower, it was because the thermal fuse was already gone before unboxing.


The thermal fuse is a last line of defence. I think its function is very obvious now in fairness. There is a thermal cutout on half the element, which resets when it cools again. This often causes cycling with limescaled showers. If that fails, and/or pressure switch fails, the last line of defence is the main cutout which permenantly disconnects the elements.

Yes I have done a 2 day triton course & a 2 day Aqualisa course & a 3 day mira course. I also do a refresher course with these manufacturers every 2 years. I strongly suggest that you attend some of these. You'd be very surprised how much there is to electric power showers.

Of all the items I worked on down the years, showers are among the simplest.

You seem to be real old school diy handyman. Education & training makes us better tradesmen. Thinking you know more than manufacturers is wrong.

Well, I recommend the manufacturers install hold on relays. Would you argue against them installing them?

Shower manufacturers recommend switching off isolators after every use of shower. This causes problems for isolating switches, leading to overheating and often burnt out switches.

I disagree with their recommendations to switch isolators after every use, as do quite a few electrical people in this forum.

I can see why your parents got in strangers to Plumb their bathroom and shower. They would know you better than me.

I put in their first shower in 1988, and second one about 12 years ago. Funny how there were no problems with either. This one was for disability thing. Do I need to explain further now?

You still have not explained why these cans explode. You cant, can you?? You just see they happened, and then quote your leaders.

If you cant answer that, then you are not fit to dictate about it.

Sleeper12

Shower isolators (pull cord switch to us human beings) are not there by law for us while servicing a shower (on average every 6 years). You can use the fuse (rcbo) for this. The pull cord switch is ONLY designed for the home owner to use each day or after each shower.

I totally give up. You'll belive what you want to believe. You seem to think just because "I have done things this way for years & nothing has gone wrong so it must be right". There are still 8.5kw showers connected to old 32amp fuses or worse still old screw in fuses. This doesn't make them right or safe.

As I don't see any point in this going back and forward with you thinking that you with absolutely no real training in shower repair or installation know more than the manufacturer or indeed tradesmen that fly to another country on a regular basis to improve their skills. So with this in mind I'm unfollowing this thread. You'll have a better time arguing with yourself.
Have a great Sunday!

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Shower isolators (pull cord switch to us human beings) are not there by law for us while servicing a shower (on average every 6 years). You can use the fuse (rcbo) for this. The pull cord switch is ONLY designed for the home owner to use each day or after each shower.

An expert in electrics as well now. Well id check regulations before claiming MCBs can be used as isolators. Part of the 2 day course was it?

I totally give up.

Good idea, at least do a proper course before coming back:pac:

You'll belive what you want to believe. You seem to think just because "I have done things this way for years & nothing has gone wrong so it must be right". There are still 8.5kw showers connected to old 32amp fuses or worse still old screw in fuses. This doesn't make them right or safe.

Well you seem to think a 2 day course means you are above those that didnt. So obviously you were useless before this course, and a fully fledged installation engineer after it.

As I don't see any point in this going back and forward with you thinking that you with absolutely no real training in shower repair or installation know more than the manufacturer or indeed tradesmen that fly to another country on a regular basis to improve their skills. So with this in mind I'm unfollowing this thread. You'll have a better time arguing with yourself.
Have a great Sunday!

Well, you failed miserably. Never answered the simple question. I guess you cant. You send a very blurred photo, as a claim of wrong plumbing causing it.

Yet a few posts later you claim heating cans can overheat even with no water. I think that ends your claim that plumbing from a 3/4 T off causes cans to explode. Perhaps a 3 day course for the next installment?

Also you never addressed my point about the hold on relay. Havent a clue, have you?

Good luck.

Tuco88

The only way i could see a heating can explode is in a really bad limescale area. Water must be in can, the inlet supply gets clogged or a supply valve closed. Even if the water pressure sensor does fail and the thermal cut out fails to open the circuit you still have the pressure release valve, unless the whole thing is coated in limescale. Im not saying it does not happen its just a right case of Murphy law...

Tapping off the water supply to the hot water cylinder is poor practice imo and just lazyness or maybe it was the only option. It should be from the tank as we know, worst case is excessive hot water use while the cylinder is filling it might starve the shower for a bit causing low water pressure.

Bruthal

Tuco88 wrote: »

The only way i could see a heating can explode is in a really bad limescale area.

I'd say you could be right.

kramer1

Immensely entertaining thread.keep up the good work lads