Phoenix Park Tunnel

Walker77

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phoenix-park-tunnel-may-reopen-to-passenger-trains-29434757.html

I'd love to see this happen

loyatemu

seems an easy win - RUI were campaigning for something similar a few years ago. They should look into allowing an interchange at Broombridge too, seeing as the Luas is going there (not sure of the exact geography, but the lines all intersect close to each other).

Judgement Day

Next week they are going to reinvent the wheel. :rolleyes:

Some of us have been calling for this for decades but what did we know. Anyway, for this to be a success there would need to be far greater security on the stretch of line through Cabra as it is/was as bad as Liffey Junction for vandalism. Concrete blocks being left hanging from bridges, stone throwing etc.

The line is nowhere near Broombridge/Liffey Junction so no link-up would be possible or useful.

loyatemu

the Luas extension crosses the Phoenix Park line doesn't it? Might be useful for anyone travelling Kildare->Stephens Green or beyond.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

A look inside, for those of us who haven't had the pleasure. (It goes completely dark for a few seconds, but persist.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THCivq-e6Pw

foggy_lad

Will the investment actually benefit commuters or other intercity passengers though? is there not very low speeds through the tunnel as well as around Cabra on the way into Connolly? Are these restrictions going to be lifted or will it be just a very slow extension to the line for commuters who will find the luas and bus multiple times faster?

Zebra3

I wonder would a new station somewhere around the Cabra Road be possible/useful.

TheBandicoot

Waste of money, would be a much better idea to put this money in the pot for DART Underground and focus on that, instead of this half assed solution. We had a similar thing last year with the airport spur instead of MN. The government need to stop looking at short term, low hanging fruit, and go for the long term projects that will deliver exponentially better service and will actually be future proof.

TheBandicoot

"The game-changer for this project, the reason why it couldn't be done before, is because of the resignalling project which means that more trains can now pass through the city centre."

Leo, the resignalling project is not complete and there has been no progress on it for a couple of years now, because your department is not willing to subvent IE enough to allow them to pay for it.

Grandeeod

Great idea! It was platform 11 who campaigned for it 10 years ago. They made a presentation to an oireachtas transport committee. Its online somewhere. Would I make interesting reading now. By no means a replacement for DU, but a good addition to the network using existing infrastructure.

LivelineDipso

Invented by Thomas Sheridan and Derek Wheeler of the original Platform 11. Both of whom were thrown out for saying the Western Rail Corridor was a waste of money and commuter rail on existing lines should come first.

Ten years later the two lads are no longer living in Ireland and all but forgotten.

Classic Irish tale to be sure, to be sure...

etchyed

foggy_lad wrote: »

Will the investment actually benefit commuters or other intercity passengers though? is there not very low speeds through the tunnel as well as around Cabra on the way into Connolly? Are these restrictions going to be lifted or will it be just a very slow extension to the line for commuters who will find the luas and bus multiple times faster?

You'd be hard pressed not to find user benefit exceeding €12m. Removal of interchange at Heuston alone would presumably have a signifcant user benefit.

foggy_lad

etchyed wrote: »

You'd be hard pressed not to find user benefit exceeding €12m. Removal of interchange at Heuston alone would presumably have a signifcant user benefit.

Only if it can be done in less than 15-20minutes, otherwise the bus and Luas are faster and may even be cheaper.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

Only if it can be done in less than 15-20minutes, otherwise the bus and Luas are faster and may even be cheaper.

I think the millions that may be spent on this would be much better going into intercity route improvements as the time difference to Luas will be nothing. No matter how much capacity Connolly has there will be a speed limit of 30mph or less and you will spent time stopped crossing to the mainline near Drumcondra and you will always be stopped waiting for signals at Connolly no matter how much capacity their is. The time savings will be nothing worth spending millions on

The NTA need to wise up and have this money spend on improving regional railways or complete the DCC project.

Captain Chaos

If they could free up platform 7 at Connolly for all shuttle services to platform 11 at Heuston, that would help. Especially when all the northern line DARTs are diverted away from Connolly station.

LionelNashe

Maybe they should tear up the tracks and lay a luas line instead in the rail bed, with half a dozen stops along the way.

LXFlyer

Might make stock transfers a little difficult between Portlaoise/Inchicore and Connolly/Drogheda, not to mention the liner trains to/from North Wall that use the line every day.

coylemj

The Indo article the OP provided a link to claims that: "The line has never been used for passenger trains" which can't be correct, I remember football specials from Athlone in the early 1970s going direct to Connolly for matches in Dalymount and we used to get regular scheduled trains to Pearse for rugby internationals in Lansdowne Road, we must have passed through the PP tunnel.

I think it was the requirement to switch platform and line capacity in Connolly and Pearse to Dart trains that caused the Galway and Westport trains to switch to terminating at Heuston and that's probably why the tunnel fell into disuse, open to correction on that one from more knowledgeable railway heads.

Captain Chaos

coylemj wrote: »

The Indo article the OP provided a link to claims that: "The line has never been used for passenger trains" which can't be correct, I remember football specials from Athlone in the early 1970s going direct to Connolly for matches in Dalymount and we used to go to Pearse for rugby internationals in Lansdowne Road, we must have passed through the PP tunnel.

I think it was the requirement to switch platform and line capacity in Connolly and Pearse to Dart trains that caused the Galway and Westport trains to switch to terminating at Heuston and that's probably why the tunnel fell into disuse, open to correction on that one from more knowledgeable railway heads.

The article does say it was never used for regular passenger trains but goes on to say it is used for specials but less so lately depending on who is winning in the GAA.

coylemj

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The article does say it was never used for regular passenger trains but goes on to say it is used for specials but less so lately depending on who is winning in the GAA.

Which is incorrect. Before the switch to Heuston in the 1970s, every Dublin-bound train that passed through Athlone terminated in either Connolly or Pearse.

Some of those trains used the (MGWR) Mullingar line (now closed) and they would have travelled to Connolly on the Sligo line and not used the tunnel but most of them would have used the GSR line via Clara, Tullamore and Portarlington and all of those trains would have used the tunnel to get to Connolly or Pearse.

Judgement Day

From the depths of my memory I seem to recall that the GS&WR ran a local Kingsbridge/Amiens Street service between 1906 and 1911. Certainly boat trains from Dun Laoghaire Pier to Heuston operated in the 1970s. I've just been looking at a timetable for 1977 and there are several connections via the tunnel.

A 1960 timetable I just had a glance in shows the 3.30pm ex.Cork arr.Kingsbridge 7.25pm and dep.7.35pm arriving Dun Laoghaire Pier at 8.15pm.

coylemj

Judgement Day wrote: »

From the depths of my memory I seem to recall that the GS&WR ran a local Kingsbridge/Amiens Street service between 1906 and 1911. Certainly boat trains from Dun Laoghaire Pier to Heuston operated in the 1970s. I've just been looking at a timetable for 1977 and there are several connections via the tunnel.

A 1960 timetable I just had a glance in shows the 3.30pm ex.Cork arr.Kingsbridge 7.25pm and dep.7.35pm arriving Dun Laoghaire Pier at 8.15pm.

A train service from Kingsbridge to Dun Laoghaire would have had to go first west to a point beyond the South Circular Road, then back east again and up through the tunnel. The branch line to the tunnel starts just east of the SCR and it's not possible for a train to go nonstop from Heuston into the tunnel because only eastbound trains can access the branch line into the tunnel.

n97 mini

One of the timetabled Sunday trains from Galway in about 1999 used to run into Heuston and back out up to Connolly and then on to Dundalk or Drogheda (can't remember which).

I know as I got that train once or twice. I would have gotten it more except for it was an Arrow.

Captain Chaos

n97 mini wrote: »

One of the timetabled Sunday trains from Galway in about 1999 used to run into Heuston and back out up to Connolly and then on to Dundalk or Drogheda (can't remember which).

I know as I got that train once or twice. I would have gotten it more except for it was an Arrow.

Wow, IE actually made a revenue run from an ECS maintenance movement. Those days are more or less gone.

Judgement Day

Well there's nothing strange in that. I mean the Rosslare train used to start from Platform .1. in Connolly and run out to West Road and then back in to Platform.5. I traveled from Heuston to Dun Laoghaire Pier a few times for the novelty back in the 70's. However, at that time in the evening (pre-DART) there was no onward southbound connection at Dun Laoghaire and a transfer to the 45A bus had to be made.

coylemj

Judgement Day wrote: »

I traveled from Heuston to Dun Laoghaire Pier a few times for the novelty back in the 70's. However, at that time in the evening (pre-DART) there was no onward southbound connection at Dun Laoghaire and a transfer to the 45A bus had to be made.

Did you not hop on the mailboat in DL for the duty-free pints?

n97 mini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Wow, IE actually made a revenue run from an ECS maintenance movement. Those days are more or less gone.

What's an ECS maintenance movement?

GerardKeating

n97 mini wrote: »

One of the timetabled Sunday trains from Galway in about 1999 used to run into Heuston and back out up to Connolly and then on to Dundalk or Drogheda (can't remember which).

I know as I got that train once or twice. I would have gotten it more except for it was an Arrow.

I remember in Limerick Station one (early 90's) there was a disused lighted display with destinations, and one of them was Dun Laoghaire, so I assume a Limerick Boat train would have used the tunnel.

foggy_lad

More questions and problems now crop up such as will trains run into Heuston station or will they use platform ten? this platform is miles from the station so is unsuitable for use and having to use that platform would discourage people from using trains routed through the tunnel.

even if trains run into the stations main platforms there will be more delays as drivers change ends and reverse out and then chang ends again and drive through the tunnel.

Imho it is just another WRC type project designed to make Irish Rail look incompetent and totally out of touch with modern railway systems.

n97 mini

I thought that the Luas was supposed to be the connection between Heuston and Connolly, so it seems a bit odd to be opening another connection.

However, dunno if layouts and traffic levels would allow it but I always thought commuter services should run from one station and intercity from the other, with frequent connections between them.

Jamie2k9

I thought that the Luas was supposed to be the connection between Heuston and Connolly, so it seems a bit odd to be opening another connection.

There is no better place than Ireland to make bad decisions and throw away money. Hopefully Leo V engages his brain and takes a serous look and see if it will deliver any real benefit to what we already have before he throws millions at it and doesn't just listen to the spin the CEO of the NTA will put on it.

coylemj

n97 mini wrote: »

I thought that the Luas was supposed to be the connection between Heuston and Connolly, so it seems a bit odd to be opening another connection.

It's not 'odd' if you want to go from a Dart station to (e.g.) Galway or Cork because currently that would involve a Dart to Connolly, a Luas to Heuston and then a change to mainline rail.

Most people can handle one switch but two is just a pain in the rear end and when you consider the length of the platforms in the mainline stations and the requirement to use escalators and multiple ticket machines changing station, it's just too much hassle for most people.

And that's before you consider the nuisance of beggars and druggies at the Luas ticket machines. Yes, I do have a Leap card but they are still a blight on the system. I was in London a few weeks ago and never came across one beggar at any tube or mainline station ticket machine.

n97 mini

Well the obvious choice was always to use the interconnector, but for years we had to endure the number 90. When the Luas came it was sold as a solution to the number 90. Now we're being sold another solution, but it's a solution to a problem that has already been solved (or so we're told).

Personally I'm in favour of it opening, but I am scratching my head a little!

Jamie2k9

It's not 'odd' if you want to go from a Dart station to (e.g.) Galway or Cork because currently that would involve a Dart to Connolly, a Luas to Heuston and then a change to mainline rail.

And with the tunnel it would involve a Dart to Connolly, a train to Plt 10 in Heuston, a long walk or a bus ride and then a train home and the fact that the frequency cold never compare to the Luas allows much more flexibility.

Zero benefit and I bet the Luas will still be quicker.

Lets be very honest here, nobody has yet put a constructive argument forward to justify this wasted investment.

strassenwo!f

I don't remember use of the Phoenix Park tunnel being part of the Platform for Change document around the turn of the millenium, produced by the Dublin Transportation Office (an offshoot of the Department of Transport which was specifically tasked to outline solutions for Dublin over the coming decades).

Nor do I remember use of the Phoenix Park tunnel featuring as part of the Transport 21 program, produced with much fanfare way back in 2005 by several ministers, including the Minister for Transport Martin Cullen, and for which funds were allegedly ring-fenced.

It also didn't appear to feature in the state's 2030 vision transport proposals outlined by the National Transport Authority, yet another Department of Transport offshoot.

Not there in any of them, but now here it is, again.

This idea may have merit. But how are Dubliners, or any potential investor in Dublin, to be expected to believe that Dublin is serious about public transport, when - in an area of government which specifically requires long-term planning - there is more and more evidence of none.

Jamie2k9

This idea may have merit. But how are Dubliners, or any potential investor in Dublin, to be expected to believe that Dublin is serious about public transport, when - in an area of government which specifically requires long-term planning - there is more and more evidence of none.

This is why the DART interconnector is needed and this is the answer to connecting Dublin railways. Every single station in Ireland will be connected all be it via Dublin.

This has to go ahead as it will connection all trains that run towards Heuston to Connolly and the city centre.

dd972

Used to go through this as a kid on the boat train from Carlisle Pier up through Connolly to Heuston and vice versa, used to be pitch dark with no lights on and driven by one of those two windowed locos and backed into Heuston by a shunting loco.

Can't beat a bit of Haughey era nostalgia !

strassenwo!f

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is why the DART interconnector is needed and this is the answer to connecting Dublin railways. Every single station in Ireland will be connected all be it via Dublin.

This has to go ahead as it will connection all trains that run towards Heuston to Connolly and the city centre.

Jamie, I don't think that sums it up fully.

The Dart Underground project, which I broadly think would be a good idea, may be the way to go.

But if it was definitely the way to go, as you say, surely progress would have been made during the years when Irish governments were wallowing in cash?

Whether the Dart Underground project is the right way to go or not, it is highly questionable whether it is a good idea to now pounce on an idea which did not feature at all in any of the major state-sponsored public transport initiatives that have been seen this century.

A very significant issue therefore, with this proposed tunnel project, is an obvious admission of planning failure within the Department of Transport.

LoonyLovegood

Being purely selfish, I'd love it. It'd mean that I could get from my parents house to Galway without worrying about getting a bus, luas and train or two trains and a luas or whatever.

I think it'd bring a lot of cross traffic for people going Maynooth commuter line, and then people from the sligo line going to the Heuston commuter line. We'd actually be able to have a train run from Belfast to Cork.

ezra_pound

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Jamie, I don't think that sums it up fully.

The Dart Underground project, which I broadly think would be a good idea, may be the way to go.

But if it was definitely the way to go, as you say, surely progress would have been made during the years when Irish governments were wallowing in cash?.

I think that you've forgotten about the fact that during the boom when there was money we were governed by a bunch of uneducated baboons.

foggy_lad

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Being purely selfish, I'd love it. It'd mean that I could get from my parents house to Galway without worrying about getting a bus, luas and train or two trains and a luas or whatever.

I think it'd bring a lot of cross traffic for people going Maynooth commuter line, and then people from the sligo line going to the Heuston commuter line. We'd actually be able to have a train run from Belfast to Cork.

The connection between Connolly and Heuston would add about an hour if not more to your journey.

Neeson

This passes up by Cabra. Nice to take a train journey up there. Good environment. Smells of nature. Trains will go slow as well so plenty of time to appreciate it.

Might have been better if they opened up the tunnel as a public walkway. Dig a hole in the park going down to it as well. Handy if you wanted to walk out to Lucan on a fair day from the zoo.

LoonyLovegood

foggy_lad wrote: »

The connection between Connolly and Heuston would add about an hour if not more to your journey.

But when you take out that the bus is at least twice the journey time of the train, and the ease of use by simply switching trains, rather than changing mode of transport, it would be a win-win situation.

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

The connection between Connolly and Heuston would add about an hour if not more to your journey.

Unless you can back that up, that'll be viewed as you trolling

zing

I remember one of the scheduled Galway -> Dub trains on Sunday afternoons back around 1998/1999 would continue to Connolly after Heuston. At the time I was living in the IFSC and travelling by train to Galway regularly (prob every other weekend). Can't remember how long extra staying on as far as Connolly would have added to the return journey for me but it was long enough that I never bothered with it - always got the bus over to bus aras/connolly instead as it was way faster. Was tempted a few times (usually when bucketing down outside) to stay on the train and even hung around a couple of times but the wait was too long so I always gave up and went for the bus. If memory serves there were very few that stayed on for the journey over to Connolly.

The long wait in Heuston doomed that particular scheme imo. On the other hand if they'd just diverted those trains to Connolly without the stop in Heuston..

Judgement Day

ezra_pound wrote: »

I think that you've forgotten about the fact that during the boom when there was money we were governed by a bunch of uneducated baboons.

Has something changed then?

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And with the tunnel it would involve a Dart to Connolly, a train to Plt 10 in Heuston, a long walk or a bus ride and then a train home and the fact that the frequency cold never compare to the Luas allows much more flexibility.

Zero benefit and I bet the Luas will still be quicker.

Lets be very honest here, nobody has yet put a constructive argument forward to justify this wasted investment.

Why would you necessarily need to get off at Platform 10?

If they are talking about commuter services, then presumably they mean the Portlaoise stopping services.

Passengers can change at Kildare, Portarlington or Portlaoise as appropriate with no walk.

Walker77

I can't see the benefits of opening the tunnel for intercity services but it would make better use of capacity for the Maynooth and Dunboyne trains were you have the third option of going onto Heuston as a third station. There would also be the option of Maynooth-Kildare, Dunboyne-Kildare, Drogheda-Kildare services. IMO I think it would be a good idea to use the tunnel until the money is there to build the inter-connector.

Judgement Day

Walker77 wrote: »

I can't see the benefits of opening the tunnel for intercity services but it would make better use of capacity for the Maynooth and Dunboyne trains were you have the third option of going onto Heuston as a third station. There would also be the option of Maynooth-Kildare, Dunboyne-Kildare, Drogheda-Kildare services. IMO I think it would be a good idea to use the tunnel until the money is there to build the inter-connector.

You should take a look at the existing rail lines on a map. Much of what you suggest such as Maynooth/Kildare would be complete impractical and involve either huge new demolition and construction works, double reversals etc. Great fun on a model layout but far removed from any reality on the ground.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Why would you necessarily need to get off at Platform 10?

If they are talking about commuter services, then presumably they mean the Portlaoise stopping services.

Passengers can change at Kildare, Portarlington or Portlaoise as appropriate with no walk.

Do you think people will stay on a slow commuter train to get to these stations when it would be quicker to go into Heuston. Its 15-20 minutes longer than intercity services.

The main point is that whatever way you look at it will still take the same amount of changing around services so why bother.

loyatemu

the map here show's the layout of the lines quite clearly. it is a big detour. If you are on a commuter train already then there is the advantage of not having to change, but an Intercity passenger would have to get off and wait at Kildare or wherever for a slower train. It may well be quicker to just continue into Heuston and get the Luas. (best case scenario they could make the station closest to Heuston an interchange point and stop the intercity services there - you'd still have to factor in waiting times though - the Luas is very frequent).