He walked out of his shift - do we owe him notice?

LegacyUser

I manage a clothing store and a few weeks ago, hired a new applicant on a 'trial basis'.

Today I told him that after reviewing his performance, we decided to go with another applicant. I told him he was on the roster for this upcoming week, so he has one week's notice excatly. He said he has to think about whether or not he wants them.

We were chatting in the staff room so he just got his stuff from his locker and left - and he had 30 mins left of his shift .so I actually don't know if I even owe him the courtesy of one week anymore, since he walked out today. Also, he could tell me he'll do them then not show up, leaving us screwed for the week so..I'm not sure if I trust the guy now.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Rookie mistake telling an employee bad news with working time left in the day.

Anyone getting bad news like that would be feeling Raw and would prefer to "go and think", giving folks bad news and then having them go straight back on the floor to bitch about you and the company is not a good move.

The safest course of action and sometimes effectively the cheapest is to pay the employee off with a check for their notice period in lieu of notice. The employee has been treated fairly, not as much material to bad-mouth the company with NERA will not come knocking if the employee thinks that they have grounds for a complaint. (At worst if they show up for their shift pissed off , there could be morale issues, theft or destruction in extreme cases or simply bad customer service)

On the other hand, walking out of the store without notifying anyone, could be consider breach of contract and in that case notice would be a moot point. But if you assume this, they could just say that they were feeling ill and left as there was only a few minutes left and they could not find you. Then it may look like you fired them without notice and youcould have problems.

I would play it safe and pay them their notice.

biko

Today I told him that after reviewing his performance, we decided to go with another applicant.

You should also tell him why you decided to go with someone else so he knows what to improve at his next job.

Kristopherus

OP says it was a "trial basis" . That being the case, does notice arise at all?

alphamule

Can ya blame him?

LowKeyReturn

Seems a very shoddy way to go about things imo.

OP - you certainly need more training and support if you are resorting to boards.ie for how to do your job. I assume this a mom and pop store, grab yourself a good book on employment law and get some proper advice.

Probation is one thing, trial basis is quite another, especially I'd hazard a guess that training etc isn't what it should be given you're inexperience. You're probably not obliged to pay him if he doesn't work the shifts, but as others have indicated, what did you think was going to happen? Personally I'd suggest doing the decent thing and paying the employee.

LegacyUser

[/QUOTE]...they could just say that they were feeling ill and left as there was only a few minutes left and they could not find you. Then it may look like you fired them without notice and youcould have problems. [/QUOTE]

One of my other employees was witness to this guy walking out so no, he wouldn't have a case in that respect.

LegacyUser

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

Seems a very shoddy way to go about things imo.

OP - you certainly need more training and support if you are resorting to boards.ie for how to do your job. I assume this a mom and pop store, grab yourself a good book on employment law and get some proper advice.

Probation is one thing, trial basis is quite another, especially I'd hazard a guess that training etc isn't what it should be given you're inexperience. You're probably not obliged to pay him if he doesn't work the shifts, but as others have indicated, what did you think was going to happen? Personally I'd suggest doing the decent thing and paying the employee.

What if it IS a small business? We don't all have huge HR departments and maybe you've never hired anyone in the retail business but you generally can see right away if people are capable or not of doing the job. It's not as easy as one would think - as this guy learned today.

We're a small company with little time to train someone from scratch so when we out an ad looking for someone with EXPERIENCE, that's what we expect they'll have. Yes he could do the basics but why show him how to balance the till, lock up the shop, open in the morning, etc when he can barely greet a customer without being told to?

The other applicant was much faster, more confident and a harder worker. And yes, I DID tell him all this, as well as HIS strong points and even said he could put me down as a reference for future employers if he needed to - as he did have some good points but not suitable for my business. Why "train" the guy I was gonna get rid of when someone much more suited for the job can be the one to take it?

Now that I've made a choice with who I want, I can take the time to show him the ins and outs of what we do, 100% as I have with all my other employees.

As for the first part of your comment, I wasn't asking how to do my job - I was asking a technical question about how notice works when someone walks out of their shift. And for the people saying I shouldnt've told him during his shift - it was slow and I was going to send him home early and brought him to the office first. So while it was going to be the end of his shift, he didn't know it yet and made the decision to walk on his own.

For the guy who called me shoddy, maybe you should ask yourself what you'd do if you told two people you'd TRY them and one was better than the other. Would you train the lesser one knowing you're not going to hire them? Maybe that says more about the kind of manager you'd make than anything and maybe you should think about all aspects of the situation before insulting how I do my job.

tatli_lokma

At the very least, you would still have to honour fair disciplinary practice. So basically, him walking out was a disciplinary issue. So next, write a letter stating that there will be a disciplinary hearing based upon his walking out. State a date and time of the hearing. Mention in the letter that he is still expected to complete the shifts he has been assigned. He will either show up and do the shifts and attend the meeting or he won't. Chances are he won't show. In which case you can made a determination on his behaviour without his attendence. This determination may result in terminating his contract provided there are grounds for doing so. In which case there would be no need to pay him for the shifts he did not complete.

As others have said, this was handled very badly on your part. However, despite his obvious non-compliance with his notice period, to cover your own ass I agree that it would be easier, safer and in the long run possibly cheaper if you just pay him for the notice period.

Also, was the notice you gave only verbal?? again this is a mistake. And when you say a 'trial basis' I assume that you got two people in to work for a week or two to decide who to keep, neither of whom had an actual contract yet. I don't understand the point of these trials. Why not hire two candidates, each initially on a month long contract. Split the shifts between them and then at the end of the month renew one contract. These 'trials' seem more like an opportunity to get people to work for a short period of time to get retaillers out of a hole (to cover holidays or whatever) whilst giving no obligation to the employee. Very unfair IMO. Next time, just hire someone, give them a contract and a probationary period. If during the probationary period they are not working out, then let them go and get someone else. 'Trialing' someone for a few weeks isn't very fair.

LowKeyReturn

simon123_ wrote: »

What if it IS a small business? We don't all have huge HR departments and maybe you've never hired anyone in the retail business but you generally can see right away if people are capable or not of doing the job. It's not as easy as one would think - as this guy learned today.

I've hired hundreds of people over 15 years in retail management. I'm not sure in the bit in bold is a typo and should say can't if it's not a typo then I agree, hence you give people a couple of try out shifts or a couple of hours on the floor before / after the interview.

If it is a typo, then again a refer to your lack of experience.

If you don't have the support of a HR department, read a book or pay a consultant.

simon123_ wrote: »

We're a small company with little time to train someone from scratch so when we out an ad looking for someone with EXPERIENCE, that's what we expect they'll have. Yes he could do the basics but why show him how to balance the till, lock up the shop, open in the morning, etc when he can barely greet a customer without being told to?

You need to look at your selection process in more detail. This is also what a probation period is for. Hiring two or more people and basically telling them there are less jobs than people is, firstly just exceptionally bad management, but will also destroy morale.

simon123_ wrote: »

The other applicant was much faster, more confident and a harder worker. And yes, I DID tell him all this, as well as HIS strong points and even said he could put me down as a reference for future employers if he needed to - as he did have some good points but not suitable for my business. Why "train" the guy I was gonna get rid of when someone much more suited for the job can be the one to take it?

Now that I've made a choice with who I want, I can take the time to show him the ins and outs of what we do, 100% as I have with all my other employees.

So you have a poor selection process, you then don't even give people any training. Again this is illustrative of someone who hasn't a clue what they're doing.

simon123_ wrote: »

As for the first part of your comment, I wasn't asking how to do my job - I was asking a technical question about how notice works when someone walks out of their shift. And for the people saying I shouldnt've told him during his shift - it was slow and I was going to send him home early and brought him to the office first. So while it was going to be the end of his shift, he didn't know it yet and made the decision to walk on his own.

For the guy who called me shoddy, maybe you should ask yourself what you'd do if you told two people you'd TRY them and one was better than the other. Would you train the lesser one knowing you're not going to hire them? Maybe that says more about the kind of manager you'd make than anything and maybe you should think about all aspects of the situation before insulting how I do my job.

Your first point is taken to some degree, however again you clearly need some support as you don't know what notice periods to give people and demonstrate a lack of understanding, even a basic understanding, of people management. I would start familiarising yourself with NERA, their website will give you information you probably lack.

As for calling you shoddy, what you describe in the last paragraph is exactly why I'm calling you shoddy, well that and the need to go anon to ask a question on boards.ie that you are then presumably going to rely upon in running your business.

LegacyUser

tatli_lokma wrote: »

... And when you say a 'trial basis' I assume that you got two people in to work for a week or two to decide who to keep, neither of whom had an actual contract yet. I don't understand the point of these trials. Why not hire two candidates, each initially on a month long contract. Split the shifts between them and then at the end of the month renew one contract. These 'trials' seem more like an opportunity to get people to work for a short period of time to get retaillers out of a hole (to cover holidays or whatever) whilst giving no obligation to the employee. Very unfair IMO. Next time, just hire someone, give them a contract and a probationary period. If during the probationary period they are not working out, then let them go and get someone else. 'Trialing' someone for a few weeks isn't very fair.

No one at our shop has a contract - even me as the manager so contracts don't come into play. You obviously haven't seen the types of people applying for these jobs or you would understand how useless it is to waste a month on someone who may all around suck. Why put your other staff and customers through that? The majority of people we get coming in tell me they only want 3 days so they can keep the dole so the last thing I need is a lecture on how to hire.

Your theory of me using someone for holiday cover makes no sense as I still ended up hiring someone permanently in the end.

As for what's fair - don't get me started. I can't tell you how many times I've had to come in and cover shifts for people who are drunk, hungover, upset from a break up or their boyfriend, who want to go on hols at the last minute and so on. Sick of these people so only hiring people who have proven to be reliable.

The applicant knew he was on a trial and said he didnt care as long as it was paid. He
rang me today and said he didn't want to do his shifts and then he apologized for walking out yesterday. So, end of story.

Eoin

tatli_lokma wrote: »

At the very least, you would still have to honour fair disciplinary practice.

Not while an employee is on probation.

tatli_lokma

simon123_ wrote: »

No one at our shop has a contract - even me as the manager so contracts don't come into play.

Time to get off your high horse and start following the law. You have a legal obligation to provide contacts to all staff. Clearly you have no clue about employment laws or rights and yet you have the audacity to try to lecture others on this? Give me a break.

If your selection process was robust in the first place you wouldn't have half these problems, and if you knew your legal obligations and honoured them, you never know you might find yourself a few reliable staff who are loyal to you because you treat them properly

you really haven't got a clue.

tatli_lokma

Eoin wrote: »

Not while an employee is on probation.

I would argue that even on probation you need to show a valid reason for ending the probation and give adequate notice. If you want to give shorter notice, then using a disciplinary issue would be the easiest way . In theory you can let someone on probation go with no explanation, but personally I wouldn't recommend it as I think it is always better to cover your ass and follow the same procedures for all staff, regardless of them being on probation or not. That way you can always back up your actions and prove that you act consistently and fairly with all staff.

dorkacle

simon123_ wrote: »

No one at our shop has a contract - even me as the manager so contracts don't come into play.

Everyone in your shop has a contract, regardless of whether they physically signed one.

They have a verbal contract which if ever disputed will be judged on previous conduct and the statutory minimum.

Every employee should be given a written contract to outline their duties, responsibilities, entitlements, pay etc..

Otherwise your setting yourself up for a host of problems as soon as you have a dispute with an employee...

Maybe it is a casual job, were people leave leave and don't give notice or complain, but one day you'll get some smart guy taking you through the Labour court an you'll be screwed

JustAThought

I'd be nice & pay him. It's no trouble to him to bad mouth you & your company behind your back & loose you invisible sales that way - over a long time that can be a heavy cost. You know what they say - a happy customer will tell one person, an unhappy one will tell ten - and keep telling.

He can easily disclaim his walking out - in shock, suddenly felt I'll, was confused & upset & had to leave, felt dizzy & had to get fresh air etc - all of which will support him easily if there is an issue that goes further.

Under the circumstances it would be churlish & bad practice not to pay him - let alone one that could get you into trouble. Nobody likes to see or hear of someone young being poorly treated & people have odd buttons that can be pressed on those types of hurts & seeming injustices.

Personally, & based on experience, I'd pay him Off & get Him A thank you card/ good luck card & all 4 1 voucher or a clearly stated bonus in his pay. It will leave a good feeling, goodwill, & set him off right for his next job.

Plus; hes young, inexperienced , & he's only beginning. Small gestures mean a lot when you're down, unemployed & just starting & trying to get ahead. You won't regret it. & The other way could well
Come Back & have a Long bitter aftertaste for you & your business.

Do a good thing for him. Pay him. Bonus him. Tha k him & wish him well. advise him & treat him good. You won't look back ever & regret those things.

LowKeyReturn

simon123_ wrote: »

No one at our shop has a contract - even me as the manager so contracts don't come into play. You obviously haven't seen the types of people applying for these jobs or you would understand how useless it is to waste a month on someone who may all around suck. Why put your other staff and customers through that? The majority of people we get coming in tell me they only want 3 days so they can keep the dole so the last thing I need is a lecture on how to hire.

Your theory of me using someone for holiday cover makes no sense as I still ended up hiring someone permanently in the end.

I'm actually beginning to think you're a troll. Are you seriously suggesting you don't think there is a statutory contract if none is provided by the employer? So you really think you can avoid that obligation to provide an employment contract my simply not supplying one?

I sincerely hope you are more clued in than you appear to be. As the person in charge of that site you personally are responsible for a number of obligations, mainly centrering around health and safety. If you haven;t been trained, or are unaware of them get informed ASAP. You could be looking at serious repercussions.

As for the 'types of people' again your selection process weeds this out. The current climate means there are very competent people looking for retail jobs. There are clues and indicators on all CVs.

As for the dole comment, this really shows a level of ignorance. Some people loose certain benefits if they work over three days, and it becomes impossible for them to support their households. The fact that they are off thier arses looking for part-time work should tell you something about the person.

simon123_ wrote: »

As for what's fair - don't get me started. I can't tell you how many times I've had to come in and cover shifts for people who are drunk, hungover, upset from a break up or their boyfriend, who want to go on hols at the last minute and so on. Sick of these people so only hiring people who have proven to be reliable.

Two comments - firstly this is retail. You run a business on a shoe string, thats part of the game, you end up coming in on occasion. If you had a clue you'd know how to manage the issue and also how to delegate it and how to ensure you have cover. You never get 100% but as I say thats retail.

simon123_ wrote: »

The applicant knew he was on a trial and said he didnt care as long as it was paid. He rang me today and said he didn't want to do his shifts and then he apologized for walking out yesterday. So, end of story.

Probably realised he was better off tbh.

OP you really are in over your head. Get yourself informed, everyone has their learning curve, I know I did - I didn't take your appalling attitude however.

LowKeyReturn

tatli_lokma wrote: »

I would argue that even on probation you need to show a valid reason for ending the probation and give adequate notice. If you want to give shorter notice, then using a disciplinary issue would be the easiest way . In theory you can let someone on probation go with no explanation, but personally I wouldn't recommend it as I think it is always better to cover your ass and follow the same procedures for all staff, regardless of them being on probation or not. That way you can always back up your actions and prove that you act consistently and fairly with all staff.

You're both half right IMHO.

There is no recourse through EAT but that doesn't mean you don't have rights. The issue new jobs carry an inherent risk of this sort of thing, you've a duty to mitigate loss and there is no loss if you were unemployed to begin with.

LegacyUser

tatli_lokma wrote: »

I would argue that even on probation you need to show a valid reason for ending the probation and give adequate notice.

You seem to be forgetting that I gave him on week and HE said " I'll think about whether or not I'll do those shifts. I don't know if I will"


So it was he who actually didn't give notice.

wmpdd3

It is shocking that you are an employer with such limited knowledge of employment law.

I would send a letter to the employee implying that their exit from the shop is an indication that they do not intend on working the notice.
Offer to post their p45 and meet them for a coffee if they want feedback on their work. Keep the feedback business like and not personal.

I would pay for the Weeks notice. How did you budget for the week? Will you have to offer overtime to your existing staff to cover his shifts?


This to me is the minimum you can offer the employee.

tatli_lokma

simon123_ wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting that I gave him on week and HE said " I'll think about whether or not I'll do those shifts. I don't know if I will"


So it was he who actually didn't give notice.

:rolleyes: totally missing the point, aren't you?

and despite all the numerous other comments, from which you could learn something, you choose to pick up on this one and still try to argue the toss. You verbally gave him notice - your word against his. You have proof of nothing. You gave him the option of working and he chose not to. Can't blame him really given that you clearly are not a very good manager.

tatli_lokma

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

You're both half right IMHO.

There is no recourse through EAT but that doesn't mean you don't have rights. The issue new jobs carry an inherent risk of this sort of thing, you've a duty to mitigate loss and there is no loss if you were unemployed to begin with.

I know that technically it is supposed to be easier to let someone go on probation, personally I just prefer to err on the side of caution. In the long run, following correct set procedures is no hardship and I just think a manager/company that shows consistency and fair practice to all staff, regardless of length of service is going to keep good staff and avoid possible EAT issues. Maybe I'm just a scardy cat! lol

LegacyUser

Hi Simon123,

I would advise you to read up on the rules in regards to employing here in Ireland.
You need to speak to the person who employs you and tell them by law you and the rest of the people working in the shop need a written contract in regards to hours, pay, what are your work tasks, working overtime ect.
A written contract covers both employer and employee if either of you have a problem.
You have been given good advice here which you need to act on.

tricky D

Letting someone go is bad enough without making the situation worse. You should be as nice as possible, not continuing to kick the fella when he's already down as a result of you letting him go. A decent employer in this situation would waive any notice requirements.

You need to up your HR skills and also make yourself aware of 'Contract by Practice' and other aspects of employment law.