Charging Relay

holyhutzpa

Hi guys,

I need to get a new leisure battery charging relay for my Westfalia... It's an unusual one as it has two outputs - it's a twin make and break relay with two 87 terminals...

Does anyone know if I can pick up one in Dublin?

Something like this...
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/173/category/36

Thanks!

Fairly common item

Halfords have them.

Cheaper in any decent auto-parts. Unfortunately the money you save doesn't go towards the web-site upkeep. So won't be listed. Try calling ahead.

[Edit: That link is only 15A though]

Or you could use a 60A 4 pin relay and split the outputs of the 87 terminal yourself by wiring two tails on the same crimp connection.
30A cable cores needs to be 2.5mm or thicker.

holyhutzpa

Thanks Liamalot - was thinking the 15A one would be a little underrated. Will call into Rathgar Auto Factors on the way home and see what they have
Second option might be worth considering too, thanks!

holyhutzpa

Reckon the next job will be getting the alternator serviced too *predicting flat batteries in the future*

holyhutzpa

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Thanks Liamalot - was thinking the 15A one would be a little underrated.

More than likely. My alternator on a 2.3L is 60Ah. That said I've put a clamp meter on the battery link cable with a leisure battery at 12.2v and only got about 7A charge. Then again I use 250watts of dipped lights to keep the voltage down.

Alternators rarely go bad. Brushes/regulator are usually where the problem's at. They're an easy 10min swap out. I'd get a spare set of those if anything.

Aidan_M_M

Why do you need a 5 pin relay?

Good question. Coffee maker?

I checked mine today. Batteries linked, engine on, lights off; 14.1v at the dash, 13.6v at the battery. 9.5A alternator + solar combined charge.
Reason for this is heavily overcast sky and voltage drop on 4 meter battery link cable. (I don't use a relay just a switch). I might eventually rewire it to shorten the battery link cable but it's not a priority.

Still though as a rule of thumb go two grades thicker on cable for DC charging. DC electrons love stranded copper, and for peace of mind a chunky relay.
Cable is specified mostly in terms of what it can carry before it melts. Most electricians don't think in DC terms where conductivity takes priority.

If you don't have an ammeter and want to measure it guerilla style, make an educated guess what fuse you need and then use a bigger one every time it blows. When it doesn't blow you know max amperage is a few amps below. Nothing wrong with this method either as long as you don't under-spec. your cable.

Hahaha...my alternator's just gone there. No worries, solar wipers work fine :-D.
Swapped brushes and regulator for spares. Back on the road ;-).

...only got a year outta those last brushes, shucks.

paddyp

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

...only got a year outta those last brushes, shucks.

! something not right there unless your commutator is made of sandpaper .

I suppose if they are that soft your commutator will last forever but all that brush dust would want to be blown out from time to time to prevent parasitics.

Last set of brushes were previously loved :rolleyes: and my alternator produced 60% of my power requirements last year.
...;) "Genuine miles"... :pac::D:pac:

New regulator kicking out 15.2v. I have to turn on everything to stop it cooking the batteries. Starter battery seems to like it though .
I've started a collection of regulators.

Parasites stealing my electrons? I'll be merciless!

Aidan_M_M

15.2?? Bit excessive , dodgy regulator?

Looks that way, think I cooked it with a DC laptop charger a while back (they're nasty little buggers, best used on a resting battery, their absorption cycle is very hard on an alternator).
I've 4 regulators to choose from now same job in the car, picked up a spare alternator yesterday for €20.

holyhutzpa

Don't know why I didn't see these posts come in -

I should have mentioned that the relay I need isn't just a charging relay, it's also a fridge cut-off relay.

I had a look at the diagram on the club80-90 wiki, and it appears that the two connections on each of the 87 pins don't need to be isolated (240v charger and driving battery are both connected to 87)
wiring diagram

With the relay off, the drivers battery, leisure battery and fridge are all isolated, so fridge doesn't run, and leisure battery and anything running off it won't run down main battery.
Only when the 'van is started will the relay be activated, and leisure battery, drivers battery and fridge can all run off alternator.

So technically I could just split the output of this relay:
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/171/category/36
?

There is this too, which is closer to what I need (original was rated to 30A, so that shouldn't be a problem)
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/173/category/36

I should note, that the wires are all TINY right now - it doesn't seem like westfalia designed this system for high electricity usage when camping - currently all interior lights and radio (and 12v sockets afaik) still work off driving battery, only the pump for the tap and the spark/fan for the fridge run off the leisure battery.
I don't think either the wires or the relay are designed to charge a fully discharged leisure battery.

Also - the alternator light is still temperamental in mine despite replacing the brush pack, but I'll clean the earths and then look into this further.

holyhutzpa

holyhutzpa wrote: »

So technically I could just split the output of this relay:
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/171/category/36

I believe I was mistaken earlier; a 30A relay has to be the max input rating.
So a 5 pin relay with two 87 terminals is the same as a 4 pin relay with two tails from the 87 terminal. One is wired internally the other externally.

My understanding is that subject to demand (ie. the load you put on them) they will give 30amps down one side or 15 amps down both, so spec. cable for 30 amp.

The relay you are looking for is commonly used for air horns and auxiliary lights.

[EDIT #2 not to be confused with a 5 pin relay with an 87a & 87b; these have two circuits; one active depending on switch position]

holyhutzpa wrote: »

I should note, that the wires are all TINY right now - it doesn't seem like westfalia designed this system for high electricity usage when camping - currently all interior lights and radio (and 12v sockets afaik) still work off driving battery, only the pump for the tap and the spark/fan for the fridge run off the leisure battery.

Using a starter battery like a deep cycle will make short work of it.
Sounds like you need a re-wire or a secondary wire alright. I'd start with an ammeter and draw my conclusions from that.
30 amp cable is 2.5mmᴓ or 4mm square surface area, kinda small (by DC standards) but not tiny (compared to audio cable or signal wire).
To enable 30 amps travel 5 metres at 14volt with less than 3% drop you need 25mmSqSA or 5.5mm ᴓ


Voltage drop calculator

holyhutzpa wrote: »

(240v charger and driving battery are both connected to 87)

Inverter chargers are madness imho.
Your alternator already produces reasonably regulated 12volt battery charge. This and the starter battery then converts this to 230VAC with 20% loss to efficiency, to charge your leisure batteries @ 20% loss of charge acceptance and possibly 10% loss to voltage drop.
15 amps *.8 *.8 = 9.6A in the leisure battery and 21watts used to heat cable (assuming for no good reason the distance is 5m to the charger on 2.5mm cable).

[EDIT; actually I just realised that at mains you can whip the amps up so they're not madness so much, just inefficient. I'd need an ammeter or rating plate of the AC side to do the true maths.]

holyhutzpa wrote: »

I don't think either the wires or the relay are designed to charge a fully discharged leisure battery.

Indeed.

Depends on how much you drive and how big the leisure battery is. I aim for bulk charge at 12% the battery capacity.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Also - the alternator light is still temperamental in mine despite replacing the brush pack, but I'll clean the earths and then look into this further.

Also check;

Battery clamps are secure
D+ fuse/diode for corrosion and holder for firm grip,
Wires at the rear of alternator (these tend to get crusty after a while),
Continuity between alternator regulator brushes and terminal contacts.
Remember to disconnect the batteries when checking contacts etc.

Had a look around if your charger is the Philips type PE2169/01F then it's a 10amp charger so I was accidentally very close.

holyhutzpa

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I believe I was mistaken earlier; a 30A relay has to be the max input rating.
So a 5 pin relay with two 87 terminals is the same as a 4 pin relay with two tails from the 87 terminal. One is wired internally the other externally.

This is something I'm trying to confirm before ordering the replacement... The schemantic seems to suggest two connected 87 terminals, but I've read elsewhere that the 87 terminals are isolated until the relay is activated (B type twin make or break relay)

Having said that - I see no real need for the charger to be separated from the driving battery... I will try piggybacking the 87 terminal on a normal 4 pin make and break and see what happens...

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

My understanding is that subject to demand (ie. the load you put on them) they will give 30amps down one side or 15 amps down both, so spec. cable for 30 amp.

I'm just leaving the wiring as it is for now - if I was deep-cycling the leisure battery the wiring would need to be replaced... I know none of the wires going into the relay are 5mm in diameter - maybe vw's standards were lower?

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

The relay you are looking for is commonly used for air horns and auxiliary lights.

Here's one.

It's different again to that - that's a change over, but I'll try piggybacking a normal 4-pin make and break for now

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Using a starter battery like a deep cycle will make short work of it.
Sounds like you need a re-wire or a secondary wire alright. I'd start with an ammeter and draw my conclusions from that.
30 amp cable is 2.5mmᴓ or 4mm square surface area, kinda small (by DC standards) but not tiny (compared to audio cable or signal wire).
To enable 30 amps travel 5 metres at 14volt with less than 3% drop you need 25mmSqSA or 5.5mm ᴓ


Voltage drop calculator



Inverter chargers are madness imho.
Your alternator already produces reasonably regulated 12volt battery charge. This and the starter battery then converts this to 230VAC with 20% loss to efficiency, to charge your leisure batteries @ 20% loss of charge acceptance and possibly 10% loss to voltage drop.
15 amps *.8 *.8 = 9.6A in the leisure battery and 21watts used to heat cable (assuming for no good reason the distance is 5m to the charger on 2.5mm cable).

[EDIT; actually I just realised that at mains you can whip the amps up so they're not madness so much, just inefficient. I'd need an ammeter or rating plate of the AC side to do the true maths.]


Indeed.

Depends on how much you drive and how big the leisure battery is. I aim for bulk charge at 12% the battery capacity.



Also check;

Battery clamps are secure
D+ fuse/diode for corrosion and holder for firm grip,
Wires at the rear of alternator (these tend to get crusty after a while),
Continuity between alternator regulator brushes and terminal contacts.
Remember to disconnect the batteries when checking contacts etc.

Thanks for that checklist - I'm hoping to attack this at the weekend when I can take some time (and a multimeter) to find out exactly what's happening to the voltage in my camper...

@-40%

Yeah I'm editing away as I change my mind about things. I smacked my head and deleted the link when I re-read my own advice about the 87a-87b thing. (that was listed 87 and 87a)

Isolated until the switch is activated...ah the thick plottens.
Good thing you pointed that out, that makes a lot of sense now that I go back over it...that's important
If you look back to the lovely wiring diagram you posted isolation prevents the starter always running your charger. If you just piggy back them then you'll always be charging from the starter @-40% efficiency.
Red/white wire 6 is a strange one, from what I gather your leisure battery is getting charge direct from the alternator and the charger simultaneously.
Very strange because you then have two different regulators if I'm reading it right.

I'd have that running from the starter battery direct to the relay and therefore lose the need of an 87 terminal.

hmmm.... are the 86 and 30 terminals of that relay are miss-labelled?

Time to download the factory service manual I reckon...I may leave that to your good self.

Cable size may not be a huge issue when you have an abundant source of current (like an alternator...relatively speaking) and short cable runs. Given that it's a coach build losses have probably already been factored. You could certainly improve it but it may not be worth the effort unless you decide to get more batteries/appliances.

A messy way to isolate the outs would be 2 x 4 pin relays. In which case 2 x 30A would be highly adequate.

Volts don't tell as much as amps. Volts are just the pressure, amps are the workers.

holyhutzpa

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Yeah I'm editing away as I change my mind about things. I smacked my head and deleted the link when I re-read my own advice about the 87a-87b thing. (that was listed 87 and 87a)

Isolated until the switch is activated...ah the thick plottens.
Good thing you pointed that out, that makes a lot of sense now that I go back over it...that's important
If you look back to the lovely wiring diagram you posted isolation prevents the starter always running your charger. If you just piggy back them then you'll always be charging from the starter @-40% efficiency.
Red/white wire 6 is a strange one, from what I gather your leisure battery is getting charge direct from the alternator and the charger simultaneously.
Very strange because you then have two different regulators if I'm reading it right.

By charger I mean a 240v hookup/charger - powers the electrical socket, and tops up the two batteries.
So if it's not connected, there shouldn't be a problem with it being connected to the charger (it currently charges both batteries when connected, and neither battery drains the other) - the diagram at the end of this document is more detailed (joker, not club joker) and shows in more detail the charger (A1), and the relay (C1) (shows diode in charger too)
http://www.westfaliat3.info/1985JokerManualEnglish211010.pdf

^That also explains your confusion about the red/white wire on the leisure battery - the leisure battery is connected to the relay with this, but the charger connection is one-way, so current doesn't disappear back into the charger

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I'd have that running from the starter battery direct to the relay and therefore lose the need of an 87 terminal.

Still need at least three terminals (apart from "ground") to keep the fridge, starter and leisure battery isolated...

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

hmmm.... are the 86 and 30 terminals of that relay are miss-labelled?

Time to download the factory service manual I reckon...I may leave that to your good self.

Cable size may not be a huge issue when you have an abundant source of current (like an alternator...relatively speaking) and short cable runs. Given that it's a coach build losses have probably already been factored. You could certainly improve it but it may not be worth the effort unless you decide to get more batteries/appliances.

Yes - I think I will stick with the meagre cabling for now, as at least when I'm in the van I'm encouraged to stay away from technology (or laptops at least)!

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

A messy way to isolate the outs would be 2 x 4 pin relays. In which case 2 x 30A would be highly adequate.

Volts don't tell as much as amps. Volts are just the pressure, amps are the workers.

At one stage when I didn't think I could get a B-type 5 pin I considered 2x4pin relays, but after this conversation I've convinced myself that I can't go wrong with the (non-B-type) with two linked 87 pins...

The reason I mention volts is that I'm not entirely happy with the regulator that I fitted recently - I would like to be getting closer to 14V (or slightly more), and I think the cheapo regulator is limiting the voltage at much less than that. I'll update when I've had a chance to get the multimeter onto everything at the weekend! I'll start with a good voltage and then measure the current...

It's been helpful to bounce the ideas around anyway. I have the vw/audi part number (411-915-511B) but that is only listed by US sites, who are probably selling a $2 part for a huge markup - I would rather understand what I need and find the part at the correct retail (not rebadged) price

Thanks for your help!

holyhutzpa

Compatible part Bosch 0 332 019 150 listed here



Tehehe that original halfords link has the bosch relay listed as a compatable part. 2x15A outputs = 30A input
15amp cable = 1.5mmᴓ

If you don't want to use halfords try an autoparts store with the two part numbers, they're usually able to find something this way in a few days.

[Edit #2: it's probably safe enough search for all the compatible part numbers Halfords have listed]

holyhutzpa wrote: »

At one stage when I didn't think I could get a B-type 5 pin I considered 2x4pin relays, but after this conversation I've convinced myself that I can't go wrong with the (non-B-type) with two linked 87 pins...

I'm inclined to agree, mostly because I don't have to delve into that spagetti-tastic wiring diagram. Also because it's the neatest solution and as I often find; tampering with electrics I just make a big mess, have to replace the parts I let the smoke out of and the original broken part, and put it back the way it was anyways.

Another good reason for keeping it simple is once one thing is sorted then the return on investment of a second simple endeavor will often earn you more than one complex one.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

The reason I mention volts is that I'm not entirely happy with the regulator that I fitted recently - I would like to be getting closer to 14V (or slightly more), and I think the cheapo regulator is limiting the voltage at much less than that. I'll update when I've had a chance to get the multimeter onto everything at the weekend! I'll start with a good voltage and then measure the current...

Most regulators are designed to stop charge at 80% the reason I have ones that do what I want is I suspect because they're all second hand and worse for wear.

[EDIT: the very least you should get from the alternator with everything electrical turned off is 14.1v]

Given that you have a flickering charge light, and reduced voltage output I think it might be worth checking that the brushes are seated correctly onto the commutator and can't travel out of the regulator.
I find it easiest to fit them by swiveling it onto the commutator off one slightly loose screw then secure with the second screw.

holyhutzpa

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Yes - I think I will stick with the meagre cabling for now, as at least when I'm in the van I'm encouraged to stay away from technology (or laptops at least)!

Well...it's nice to have the option...
I used this a method like this for about a year and it cost me 3 laptop chargers in inevitable late night polarity gobsh1tery until I eventually hard wired it, but it may be of use for the brave. Get either a set of 400amp jump leads to butcher or decent croc. clips and some 4mmᴓ cable (overspec-ed for 100watts) and wire these directly onto a ceramic cigarette lighter socket. If the cigarette lighter socket has a rating you can happily ignore this once you replace that sh1te cable with your own.

Then you have a laptop power point you can connect direct to the battery for a DC charger.

Add a fuse on the positive (or not if your laptop charger has one and you rather not).
A diode on the negative will give you reverse polarity protection (and some voltage drop which the laptop charger may not like).
[EDIT: voltage drop on the negative probably doesn't matter]

Regarding late night miss-adventure the diode just occurred to me there. Short of that I'd advise BIG idiot-proof red and black clamp and battery post markings (lecky tape works for me).

Keep an eye on the battery voltage when using DC laptop chargers if you fall outside their input tolerance you risk damage to the laptop. Most of these are designed around a running engine. One with a 10.5v to < 15v tolerance is best.

I've thought of another cause of low regulated voltage; this is a weak starter battery. For example if the battery is 20% - 40% DOD after a full charge then the regulator constantly detects a low voltage and never reaches completion voltage.
I say this because I know my regulator can produce 14.8v but haven't seen >14.3v in weeks of city driving. Also my starter battery will rest at the 12.4v tipping point after 2 days without charge, dropping significantly to 9.5v during cranking.
My understanding of alternator regulation is fairly rudimentary so this is entirely speculative but easily verified with a hydrometer or known good and fully charged battery.

holyhutzpa

I am at my wits' end with this, think I might be bringing the alternator in for a service. Am convinced one of the diodes in it has fried...

Sorry to hear it.
I've learned the hard way that soon as I lose patience with machine to cease and desist and come back fresh later...or hire a better man. Often's the time I've lost it and made twice the job for myself.

Diode test

holyhutzpa

Took the first big stab at this at the weekend. Found out that one of the wires to the alternator seems to be a spare - I think part of the wiring harness has been replaced at some stage? (Currently just three wires to alternator - two B+ to battery, one D+ to alternator light)

One of the relay switching wires was completely dead, so I had to find out why that was. Started with the area above/behind the fuse panel. Found a 20 year old alarm system that had been wired out, but not removed (ffs), so removed that. Thought I had broken something in the process as it wouldn't start after the removal. It turns out I just knocked out a crucial wire while removing the alarm (easy to do as most of the wiring seems to have been butchered at some stage) It was a black wire - possibly fuel pump? Either way connected that back up and it starts fine, but there still didn't seem to be an increase of voltage across the leisure battery. Drained what little daysel I had starting it so will get more and test further...
In removing the alarm system I found the other side of the relay switching wires, the black/red wire had been cut (sigh), it seems that it was spliced from the main black/red that goes to the dash(?) - the tail end was sticking out, so I spliced them back...

Needs more investigation, but I'm pleased about my findings at the weekend. If nothing else I'll know the electrical circuit inside out by the end of this!
Earth crowns above the fuse panel were quite clean, very little corrosion.
Grounds on gearbox/chassis were cleaned, ground to engine from battery is stuck tight, probably need to fix that
Alternator is putting 14.5v to main driving battery with no drain on the system (yay!)

Remaining concerns:
There aren't usually spare wires in a system... confirm it isn't from something else.
Why was this black/red cut? Someone being an idiot or it was causing a problem before...
Voltage across leisure battery still seems to be low. Will test again, but it is possibly still not charging...

holyhutzpa

Kudos you're making good headway

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Took the first big stab at this at the weekend. Found out that one of the wires to the alternator seems to be a spare - I think part of the wiring harness has been replaced at some stage? (Currently just three wires to alternator - two B+ to battery, one D+ to alternator light)

Three wires is correct one of the B+ takes a trip around the starter to reduce voltage drop usually.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

One of the relay switching wires was completely dead, so I had to find out why that was.

Could it be ignition switched?

holyhutzpa wrote: »

It was a black wire - possibly fuel pump?

If it is the fuel pump you could put a hidden switch on it as a security measure.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Alternator is putting 14.5v to main driving battery with no drain on the system (yay!)

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Remaining concerns:
There aren't usually spare wires in a system... confirm it isn't from something else.

God knows what your predecessor has been up to, I've loadsa wires all over the dash and engine bay dangling harmlessly not bothering anyone...couldn't be bothered wrecking my head over them, it's easier run my own if something isn't working. Unless there's something obvious in the vicinity.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Why was this black/red cut? Someone being an idiot or it was causing a problem before...

Possibly both.

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Voltage across leisure battery still seems to be low. Will test again, but it is possibly still not charging...

I reckon it's voltage drop on a long run of thin cable.
Put the figures you know; wire gauge/voltage/distance into the voltage drop calculator I posted earlier and see if this corresponds to the difference between your battery voltages.

[EDIT: oops you can't enter just those parameters on the one I posted....won't be too hard find one you can though, or a chart]

Another quick diagnosis would be to run a hefty jump lead between the battery +ives or welding cable and see if the voltage situation improves.

Thinking about your spliced wires, it's possible they were previously integrated into the alarm system.

holyhutzpa

holyhutzpa wrote: »

Voltage across leisure battery still seems to be low. Will test again, but it is possibly still not charging...

Retailer here

[Edit: on second thought I'd only recommend the Pro 12/24 version because the alternator temp. sensor is very important and due to the requirement that it has to be mounted near the alternator it'd have to be the waterproof version too]

[Edit #2: having said that what I'd recommend and what I would do myself on my own vehicle are two completely different things . Option B: go for the non-waterproof digital reg. strip the cable down and upgrade it for an appropriately gauged loom and fit it in the cab in a footwell...this could get you within a meter of the alternator. Then put a high quality automatic thermostatic switch on the white field control wire of the digital reg. reading temperature from the stator if possible or the B+ if not)

Product info

Looks like there's a new one on the way, .pdf here not working yet

Sterling

I think I might buy one myself it looks the business...better finish testing my mark 7 charge circuit before I move onto mark 8 though .

Installation instructions

This (along with most sterling products) is a fast charger the upshot of this is that it's kindov pointless unless you are using open lead-acids or mickey mouse "maintenance free sealed" batteries like mine that you can water.

Sterling wrote:

Up until now you may never have maintained your batteries but with the regulator on the high charge rate you would expect to use much more water out of your batteries. It is therefore very important to regularly inspect and refill your batteries water level. For fast, high charging use only conventional lead acid batteries, do not use gel, or sealed batteries unless the maintenance free aspect is a priority and performance is not. The term 'maintenance free' may be on the side of your lead acid battery but this is not true in marine work cycle mode. Please ignore any reference to maintenance free on any open lead acid battery; this is for automotive cycles only.
Remember fast charging cost water, check your batteries water level regularly