Carl Froch vs George Groves

CtrlAltDefeat

only sad thing is froch win got tainted

walshb

Problem seems to be the complete divide in both camps on this thread.. Froch wasn't to blame for the "early stoppage." George was winning and was a few rds up. Froch seemed to me to be coming on strong and really putting the pedal down.

The big IF is whether or not George makes it 12 OR Froch makes it 12 had the referee not stopped it. Nobody can say. I could see a strong argument for both making it 12.

How the final 3 rds would have went is guess work. Had Froch won them then it's a close fight. I want a rematch!

kryogen

CtrlAltDefeat wrote: »

Froch is the man

CtrlAltDefeat wrote: »

it is deja vu

It wasn't, you actually posted the exact same thing in the other post that you went back and (sadly) edited today.

That's really sad.

Its also sad you have nothing better to do then flame the thread

Now, before you go on about me being a Groves fan boy you should probably have a look at my opinions on the fight/result, otherwise you make look like a stupider, sad guy with nothing better to do

darced

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Henno30

How to score a Carl Froch fight

The British Boxing Board of Control (BBBoC) have noticed a level of controversy around the stoppage and scoring of this weekend’s Carl Froch-George Groves IBF title fight at super-middleweight (12st).

While we understand that Mr Groves and his team are disappointed with the conclusion of the fight and the scores the judges had recorded, we wanted to put our criteria on the record. It is fair to say that a Carl Froch fight needs to be scored differently for a number of reasons:

1. Carl Froch is a “warrior”

2. Carl Froch has an “iron chin”

3. Carl Froch is an “international superstar”

4. Carl Froch is the “champion” and any opponent must “take it” from him

We ask that referees and judges keep these issues in mind during a fight. We accept that for the casual hardcore fan however, these reasons may cause confusion as to the specific assessment our judges make during Mr Froch’s fights. To support you, and to offset any suggestion of impropriety (as the Board is and always will be above reproach or suspicion) we have compiled this quick guide to how to score a Carl Froch fight.

The criteria

1. If Carl lands more punches in the round, or the more damaging punches, he wins the round 10-9

2. If Carl’s opponent lands more punches, or the more damaging punches, Carl wins the round because “that’s how he fights”

3. If Carl is boxing on the back foot behind his jab, this is an example of his versatility and he wins the round

4. If Carl’s opponent is boxing on the back foot behind their jab, this is an example of them running away from Carl’s power, and Carl wins the round

5. If Carl punches legal, but non-scoring, areas like arms and gloves, Carl wins the round because he’s doing damage that will “pay off down the stretch”

6. If the opponent punches legal, but non-scoring, areas like arms and gloves, this is because Froch’s defence is “underrated” and his opponent is wearing himself out

7. If Carl knocks his opponent down, he wins the round 10-8 and gains additional “warrior” points* to spend throughout the remainder of the fight

8. If the opponent knocks Carl down and he gets up, this is down to his “iron chin” and Carl receives “warrior” points to spend throughout the remainder of the fight. He loses the round 10-8, but gains additional “iron chin” points. These points can be used to halt the referee from stopping the fight in your opponent’s favour – even if you have taken a career-altering beating.

Using these criteria, you can see it was correct that there was only a one-point margin in Mr Groves favour. It also explains why Howard Foster opted to stop the fight, since the amount of “iron chin” and “warrior points” Mr Froch had accumulated during the prior eight rounds left too large a gap for Mr Groves to overcome. It was the right thing to do because, as you know, the Board’s paramount concern is fighter safety.

We hope this helps with any further discussions you may engage in on this topic.

Yours,

The Board

*”Warrior” points are a relatively new addition to the BBBoC’s scoring criteria and deserve some clarification. We created them to ensure that fighters like Carl Froch, who fight with scant regard for defence or their health, have the opportunity to win fights against more skilled opposition.

For every clean shot or knockdown Carl suffers, or wild swing that he misses, he gets additional credit. He can then use these points to even up the scorecards, overlooking that unfair “defence” criterion, or in some cases encourage the referee to halt the fight in his favour when he lands any series of punches. The opponent’s condition is not a valid concern at this stage, since “warrior” points overrule any concerns about “fitness to continue”

Strongbow10

darced wrote: »

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i've no preference for either of the fighters, im a fan of neither really.

You are clearly a Froch fan going by your posts, you are engaging in a bit of guesswork however, theres no way you can be sure of how it would have unfolded.

I'm not even going to mention the dodgy cards, no doubt you'll have your own legitimate reason for 2 judges only having a point in it.

walshb

darced wrote: »

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I do agree that comparing the two scenarios is off the mark.

HigginsJ

walshb wrote: »

Problem seems to be the complete divide in both camps on this thread.. Froch wasn't to blame for the "early stoppage." George was winning and was a few rds up. Froch seemed to me to be coming on strong and really putting the pedal down.

The big IF is whether or not George makes it 12 OR Froch makes it 12 had the referee not stopped it. Nobody can say. I could see a strong argument for both making it 12.

How the final 3 rds would have went is guess work. Had Froch won them then it's a close fight. I want a rematch!

Spot on. Fans were biggest losers as it was setting up to be a great last few rounds.

darced

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darced

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gaybeer

I really enjoyed this fight up until the end. I didn't get to watch it live, followed it on twitter and watched the following morning so was possibly a bit biased watching. I really like watching Groves and Froch as both put on entertaining fights.

I thought the stoppage was a bit premature but not the robbery some people are claiming. My issue is more with the inconsistency than with the stoppage itself. If you stop the fight there than Froch should have been stopped in round one when he got back to his feet and was held up by the ropes and at one or two other points in the fight. Oh and the cards were a joke. How can you find more than 2 rounds for Froch. He was coming into it more but Groves generally having better of the rounds.

As far as the fighters, I was hugely impressed with Groves. He was composed (apart from the final round), picked his shots well and had better speed and power than I expected. I didn't think he was tiring too badly and I think it would have been interesting to see how he coped if he had of made it out of round 9. I don't think it was Froch getting old over night as some people are suggesting, I think that Groves with a very good jab and good hand speed are going to trouble Froch if he is 25 or 35..

I would like to see the rematch as I don't think there is too much else out there for Froch at the moment. Groves his by far his biggest money fight. For Graves there are plenty of options now. Degale, Kessler, Bute....

thisNthat

Just watched Groves interview on Sky sports, good interview, I hope there's a rematch but Froch has too much to lose so he'll probably do a David Haye on it,
Was a massive fan of froch but I'd go for groves in the rematch, Respect is earned not given and groves earned his respect from the fans after the fight,
booed in to the arena and cheered out.
I wonder did the ref collect his winnings yet :rolleyes:

darced

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deadeye187

This is just another nail in the coffin of the well dead sport of boxing!

Froch is a plastic champ!


But lets call it, who really cares, boxing is beyond a joke at this stage!

gaybeer

darced wrote: »

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Arrogant maybe delusional no. He ruined Froch for most of this fight. What do you really disagree with here. He caused a lot of damage in round 6, he will get a bigger slice of the purse if they rematch, he did what he said he would do and got a little unlucky. Boxers have to promote themselves, he wants a rematch and his best way to get it is to get teh public to want it more...

tunguska

darced wrote: »

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I thought Froch was in trouble when he was put down in the first round. He did hit his gloves together and yank up his shorts but he was on rubber legs and trying his best to make out like he was brand new. Fair play to him though, he fought back like crazy. Groves had him in trouble a good few times thoughout the fight but he hung in there and turned it around to the point where he had Groves in trouble. No way it should've been stopped though, the ref needed to leave them to it. I think Froch would've knocked Groves out but the ref should've let the fight reach its natural conclusion.
Froch was a dick in the post fight interview though. All he had to say was Groves fought a great fight and left it at that. Instead he was being a passive aggressive little bitch and giving himself backhanded compliments at the same time.

stooge

Really enjoyed the fight up until the stoppage. Thought that Froch proved how tough and durable he is after the first count. Groves fought a great fight and fair play to his trainers who got their tactics spot on. I had Froch winning 2 rounds before the stoppage but really did feel that had the ref let it go on he would have finished Groves. Hoping for a rematch but I wouldnt put money on it.

darced

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JacksonHeightsOwn

gaybeer wrote: »

Arrogant maybe delusional no. He ruined Froch for most of this fight. What do you really disagree with here. He caused a lot of damage in round 6, he will get a bigger slice of the purse if they rematch, he did what he said he would do and got a little unlucky. Boxers have to promote themselves, he wants a rematch and his best way to get it is to get teh public to want it more...

i actually thought McCracken was going to pull Froch out after the 6th to be honest, he got an unmerciful beating in that round

gaybeer

darced wrote: »

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Sure Carl got the better of that exchange but its not like Groves was defenceless, he was throwing back. There had been plenty of times in the fight when Groves hurt Carl and Carl got on his bike or tied him up. I think Groves has a genuine reason to feel hard done by

el flaco

I loved looking at the two corners during the pre-fight announcements. It was like Homer Simpson v Drederick Tatum.

Froch's corner had a huge entourage with well-known trainers and 18-stone blokes with muscles on their muscles.
Over in Groves corner you had Moe Szyslak and Grandpa Simpson just leaning up against the ropes.

Thankfully it didn't turn out like that fight. Although the ending was just about as controversial....



.....actually, Moe did the right thing, so, his was less controversial

theavenger

walshb wrote: »

Problem seems to be the complete divide in both camps on this thread.. Froch wasn't to blame for the "early stoppage." George was winning and was a few rds up. Froch seemed to me to be coming on strong and really putting the pedal down.

The big IF is whether or not George makes it 12 OR Froch makes it 12 had the referee not stopped it. Nobody can say. I could see a strong argument for both making it 12.

How the final 3 rds would have went is guess work. Had Froch won them then it's a close fight. I want a rematch!

100% agree, except I thought round 9 was do or die for Froch, if he didn't get groves out then ne never was. I know he a notoriously slow starter (bute the exception) but thats the worst iv seen him, I can barely recall froch looking to his corner much in his career, I counted at least 3 times on saturday

JacksonHeightsOwn

walshb wrote: »

Problem seems to be the complete divide in both camps on this thread.. Froch wasn't to blame for the "early stoppage." George was winning and was a few rds up. Froch seemed to me to be coming on strong and really putting the pedal down.

The big IF is whether or not George makes it 12 OR Froch makes it 12 had the referee not stopped it. Nobody can say. I could see a strong argument for both making it 12.

How the final 3 rds would have went is guess work. Had Froch won them then it's a close fight. I want a rematch!

who would you take this time round?

Its funny, i reckon about 80% of the people that would have backed Froch will change their tune.

And im one of them

Deiseboy01

Strongbow10 wrote: »

shocking stoppage in fairness, even his unorthodox method of stopping the fight (getting Groves in a headlock and pulling him away from Froch) was crazy.

Groves even shipped a heavy bodyshot when the ref was trying to pull him away.

It stank to high heavens last night, Matchroom protecting their cash cow. It was even more scandalous to read the score cards afterward, 2 judges only had a point in it.

Groves was superb last night, honestly didn't expect it at all. Really made Froch look as limited as he predicted pre fight. Turns out it wasn't a lack of respect by Groves post fight, it was his analysis of Froch's flaws having clearly studied him for a few years.

Having said that, Froch displayed his granite chin and shipped some huge shots and showed heart of a lion and Groves show naivety in being dragged into Froch's kinda fight in the end and may well have been stopped had the fight been allowed run its course.

Watch the replay of the Knockdown in round 1, Froch was out for a split second before hitting the canvas, massive kudos for recovering.

Enough is enough with Matchroom though, too many dodgy decisions in favour of their fighters on domestic cards. Burns, Bellew, Rose and now Froch have received extremely generous treatment.

Not to mention the ref's performance last night prior to the stoppage. Constant hitting after the break/bell and use of forearm by Froch. He must have received 5/6 warnings in 9 rounds and not a single point deduction either.

The whole set up needs looking at.

Groves trainer Paddy Fitzpatrick summed it up well on Sky this morn, hes a pretty straight shooter too who is quite a low key guy:

"every few fights we have these kind of decisions, we all go mad, then it goes away, and then somebody else gets their living ripped off, then we carry on etc etc"

"not this time"

Amazing in this day and age when match fixing and betting patterns are investigated etc.. that we don't see any proper investigation into boxing. Bank accounts of judges/referees would make some great investigation fodder for starters.

I know folks will say boxing is the most subjective of sports in terms of differing views of a particular result but some of them really take the biscuit and there can be no disputing this surely.

Well said. You could add the Quigg result to that list too. I had the Cuban winning by a couple of rounds althought it was not the injustice the burns fight was.

I had Froch to win rounds 8 to 10 and felt at the end of round eight my money was safe. Groves was a mile ahead. I had him 5 up but by the end if the eighth the tide was turning, he looked knackered and I could see Froch going into to win by stoppage.

Totally disagree with the manner of the win but by that point I felt it had an inevitably to it. Groves was getting dragged into a war and he was never going to cone out the other side of that type of fight.

HigginsJ

chrisbonnie wrote: »

who would you take this time round?

Its funny, i reckon about 80% of the people that would have backed Froch will change their tune.

And im one of them

I would reckon Froch would take him in the rematch. Would be better prepared for Groves & would take him as a serious threat. I had serious doubts about Groves before the fight but he really was superb. The rematch would be a cracker.

Groves (or Froch tbh) would be mad to go anywhere near Andre Ward in their next fights.

DuckHook

darced wrote: »

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Like I said sometimes it's better to say nothing, your entitled to your view on the fight but when the vast majority are saying your wrong..then you're most likely wrong..but you know this and are trying to get people to rise to your nonsense.

CtrlAltDefeat

Froch P4P number 1

danbrosnan

Cant believe some of the opinions on here, its a joke, and when the rematch happens Froch will be knocked out…

kryogen

danbrosnan wrote: »

Cant believe some of the opinions on here, its a joke, and when the rematch happens Froch will be knocked out…

What makes you say that? He was absolutely battered with Groves best shots saturday and kept coming forward, kept hanging in there, kept throwing punches and put himself in a position to win the fight

Of course anyone can be KO's but I would be surprised if Groves could knock him out easily considering he gave it his best shot and came up short already

The only thing Groves would have on his side are Froch will be even older, and he will have learned from the experience of being in that fight. My main gripe with him was the fight came a couple of fights early. That wouldn't be an issue in the re match.

I would expect Froch to be better prepared in a re match however and if he doesn't get caught cold in the first the fight would probably go a little different.

Would be more interested in the re match then I was the original I think.

Fabric Softener

kryogen wrote: »

What makes you say that? He was absolutely battered with Groves best shots saturday and kept coming forward, kept hanging in there, kept throwing punches and put himself in a position to win the fight

Of course anyone can be KO's but I would be surprised if Groves could knock him out easily considering he gave it his best shot and came up short already

The only thing Groves would have on his side are Froch will be even older, and he will have learned from the experience of being in that fight. My main gripe with him was the fight came a couple of fights early. That wouldn't be an issue in the re match.

I would expect Froch to be better prepared in a re match however and if he doesn't get caught cold in the first the fight would probably go a little different.

Would be more interested in the re match then I was the original I think.

Well if the referee made froch walk towards him and look him in the eyes like you are supposed to after a knock down Froch wouldn't have made the count imo, his legs were like rubber. He needed the ropes to hold himself up.

CtrlAltDefeat

Froch P4P number one 2014
ward is now forced to come to england and get knocked out

walshb

chrisbonnie wrote: »

who would you take this time round?

Its funny, i reckon about 80% of the people that would have backed Froch will change their tune.

And im one of them

I was one to back Froch first time around, but I did say that IF Groves could take the heat then he'd make it close. He did just that, and more for 9 rds. I think that Groves can really improve in confidence from the other night. I think he'll be more up for it and confident should they rematch . On the other side I wouldn't at all be surprised if Froch can adapt and also improve. It's intriguing.

kryogen

Fabric Softener wrote: »

Well if the referee made froch walk towards him and look him in the eyes like you are supposed to after a knock down Froch wouldn't have made the count imo, his legs were like rubber. He needed the ropes to hold himself up.

Watch it again then?

He wobbled off the ropes when he got up alright, but he was able to stand straight and clearly had his faculties when the ref checked him.

People getting angry at Froch for what actually took place in the ring is mind boggling, he did his job, Groves did his, the ref made an error. The rest is speculation.

The real anger should actually be directed at the two judges who had that fight scored so close. That was a joke

kryogen

walshb wrote: »

I was one to back Froch first time around, but I did say that IF Groves could take the heat then he'd make it close. He did just that, and more for 9 rds. I think that Groves can really improve in confidence from the other night. I think he'll be more up for it and confident should they rematch . On the other side I wouldn't at all be surprised if Froch can adapt and also improve. It's intriguing.

Yeah, as I said, I think I would be more interested in a re match then I was the fight!

nacho libre

kryogen wrote: »

Watch it again then?

He wobbled off the ropes when he got up alright, but he was able to stand straight and clearly had his faculties when the ref checked him.

People getting angry at Froch for what actually took place in the ring is mind boggling, he did his job, Groves did his, the ref made an error. The rest is speculation.

very few blame Froch for what the ref' did, that would be absurd.
They are annoyed at his antics in the post fight interview. He has immense self- belief, but at the same time seems insecure in some ways.

I really can't see how Carl will improve and adapt next time out. He will be beaten to the punch next time as well, and will likely lose on points, as Groves will stick to boxing next time rather than playing to Carl's strengths.

Too Tough To Die

Groves wins the rematch quite comfortably imo. It will be a less entertaining fight too.

kryogen

nacho libre wrote: »

very few blame Froch for what the ref' did, that would be absurd.
They are annoyed at his antics in the post fight interview. He has immense self- belief, but at the same time seems insecure in some ways.

I really can't see how Carl will improve and adapt next time out. He will be beaten to the punch next time as well, and will likely lose on points, as Groves will stick to boxing next time rather than playing to Carl's strengths.

He did not come across well in the interview alright, then again he never comes across particularly well Groves was just as annoying in the pre fight stuff I would say though.

I don't think a re match would go the distance, one or the other would be stopped. I still think it would more likely be Groves to get stopped but am not sure we will get the chance to find out.

Froch is a notorious slow starter, and he was caught cold in the first. I would hope that he could ensure he isn't that slow out of the blocks in a re match,if Groves can stick to his game plan he could also get a late stoppage though I reckon.

For me, it would be interesting anyway, so many possibilities and potential twists to the fight

darced

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PropJoe10

Nobody is blaming Froch for what happened but some of the comments he's made since the fight have made him look like a right **** to be quite honest. Saying that the ref saved Groves' career makes him look quite stupid, especially considering the amount of punches Groves landed on him during that 9 rounds. I personally would be surprised if Froch took a rematch. He'll want to fight Ward again now and then retire. He wont beat Ward though, Ward is in a completely different class to him.

Henno30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUgu1kTcf8

darced

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Fabric Softener

Just saw the stoppage. It was outrageous. Groves was fine, sure he took a couple decent shots, but he was hitting back and protecting hinself. He would have weathered the storm and gone on to win the fight imo. That ref should be sacked, I don't care if he "only had a split second to make a decision", there was no reason to stop the fight. Its boxing, you are supposed to be hit.

If the ref wants to be so cautious and protect their health he should have stopped the fight as soon as the first bell rang.

Gorman700

darced wrote: »

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Groves was ready to go there, look at the last punch Carl connects with, Groves hands drop and even when the ref grabs him his hands nearly tough the floor. When the ref eventually let's him out of that bizarre head lock he slumps on to the ropes and takes a knee. He was gone, simple as that.

Tiriel

Did anyone hear the interview with Paddy Fitzpatrick, Groves' trainer yesterday evening? I think it was on Newstalk - it was pretty grounded. He just asked why, if the ref was claiming he was there to protect the fighter, he didn't stop the fight when Froch was hurt earlier. Balance between protecting the fighter is getting harder to call, ruining fights vs serious injury the likes of Abdusalamov.

I liked that when asked what were you whispering in his ear before going into the right, he answered "there was a reason I was whispering!".

kryogen

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Nobody is blaming Froch for what happened but some of the comments he's made since the fight have made him look like a right **** to be quite honest. Saying that the ref saved Groves' career makes him look quite stupid, especially considering the amount of punches Groves landed on him during that 9 rounds. I personally would be surprised if Froch took a rematch. He'll want to fight Ward again now and then retire. He wont beat Ward though, Ward is in a completely different class to him.

There have been plenty of people angry at Froch about the stoppage, which is ridiculous. The post match interview etc he obviously sounds like a tool, as much of a tool as Groves sounded like before the fight.

In my honest opinion the ref stopped the fight a bit early, but the more I watch it the more I think Groves may have been gone, it does look like his hands go and his head goes just before the ref steps in. He doesn't struggle or resist the ref at all initially, he appears to be out of it a little bit. Watch the video a couple of posts above again.

Having said that I still think that given how the fight had gone, how far ahead Groves should have been on points he should have given him a better chance to carry on. The flip side is that if he hadn't stopped it (and he has to go on instinct) and Groves had got seriously hurt he would be slaughtered for not stepping in.

I know which one I would prefer to have on my conscience but I try not to judge the ref too harshly, the judges with the ridiculous scores on the other hand, they should be slapped.

DuckHook

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why would you quit posting on the thread? only person getting bothered is yourself, its only opinions.

Your really struggling with using a pre-fight prediction to "prove" your point by the way as i never even brought that up.

In my opinion your simply carrying on with your "differing opinion" to attempt to get under peoples skins and im sure a few would agree with me.

nacho libre

Y

kryogen wrote: »

He did not come across well in the interview alright, then again he never comes across particularly well Groves was just as annoying in the pre fight stuff I would say though.

I don't think a re match would go the distance, one or the other would be stopped. I still think it would more likely be Groves to get stopped but am not sure we will get the chance to find out.

Froch is a notorious slow starter, and he was caught cold in the first. I would hope that he could ensure he isn't that slow out of the blocks in a re match,if Groves can stick to his game plan he could also get a late stoppage though I reckon.

For me, it would be interesting anyway, so many possibilities and potential twists to the fight

Yes. Groves was annoying in the build up, but a lot of that was coming from being with Booth, though Groves is smart enough not to have stick to a script.

I don't agree with all that, because where do you draw the line, is it okay to insult someone dead mother if it will potentially increase your chancing of winning because it causes your opponent to fight with blind rage.

as for the stoppage, well at the time i was calling the decision bull****, but it's easy to criticise when you're not responsible for making split- second decisions that could have devastating consequences if you don't make the right one. i'd rather be remembered for stopping a fight prematurely, than being the ref in the Eubank V Watson fight.

I admire Carl's sheer determination and ability to take a punch, but he was disingenuous to laud the ref' for his decision, when you know well he'd be bucking if the ref had stopped him from continuing on. Groves was right, the image of him being a powerful puncher but chinny is what influenced the ref, whereas Carl has the image of a warrior, so there was no question of pulling him out in the first and sixth, whereas a lot of other fighters might have been.

I'm starting to think there won't be a rematch. If there is i don't think it will matter if Carl starts fast( he started fast against Bute), he'll still be made to look cumbersome, as he always has against slick boxers, only this time i don't think he'll be able to force a stoppage.

blade1

kryogen wrote: »

What makes you say that? He was absolutely battered with Groves best shots saturday and kept coming forward, kept hanging in there, kept throwing punches and put himself in a position to win the fight

Of course anyone can be KO's but I would be surprised if Groves could knock him out easily considering he gave it his best shot and came up short already

The only thing Groves would have on his side are Froch will be even older, and he will have learned from the experience of being in that fight. My main gripe with him was the fight came a couple of fights early. That wouldn't be an issue in the re match.

I would expect Froch to be better prepared in a re match however and if he doesn't get caught cold in the first the fight would probably go a little different.

Would be more interested in the re match then I was the original I think.

Groves took his foot off the gas so he'd have plenty to last the 12 rounds.
Froch hits him with a few shots, not even clean ones and the ref dived in.
If the ref didn't stop the fight prematurely,it was only a matter of time before Froch got knocked out.
Froch was giving all he had and was lucky he had a ref on his side because he would have been spent after that exchange.
Groves had Froch's number from the first bell.
He had he's number even well before the fight.

walshb

blade1 wrote: »

Groves took his foot off the gas so he'd have plenty to last the 12 rounds.
Froch hits him with a few shots, not even clean ones and the ref dived in.
If the ref didn't stop the fight prematurely,it was only a matter of time before Froch got knocked out.
Froch was giving all he had and was lucky he had a ref on his side because he would have been spent after that exchange.
Groves had Froch's number from the first bell.
He had he's number even well before the fight.

I don't see it as that simple at all. The referee made a split second decision that they are forced to do at times. Nobody knows if the referee got it right or wrong.

I have a good feeling that HAD the referee allowed Groves to continue, and had George been still a bit wobbly allowing Carl to follow up and connect cleanly, resulting in real damage to Groves, there would be many slating the referee for allowing it to go on. Amongst those many the same people who are slating him for stopping it.

I believe the referee may have jumped in early, but I am sitting at home watching the television. The referee is right up and close and intimately involved. I would rather put my trust in the referee than the armchair viewer as regards a debated and "early" halting to a fight.

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

Your post is full of assumptions which doesn't translate for a strong argument.

Spot on. Assumptions presented as certainties it seems.