Carl Froch vs George Groves

clubwelly

The more I watch the stoppage the more I think that 2 more punches later and Groves was gone.

I think Carl's a legend, but Groves nearly had all the right tactics from being clever with the head, holding Frochs arms at time which both frustrated the hell outa Carl.

I'd love to see the rematch but I can understand Froch wanting a big US payday of Chavez Jnr or Ward 2

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

The fight was just on Sky and it's even worse watching it as-live. The second-last punch that landed was on Froch's face, then he landed one and the referee jumps in.

Yes, and you have the luxury of analysing it over and over. A referee does not. He is there in the moment making a split second decision based on what he sees right in front of his eyes.

walshb

clubwelly wrote: »

The more I watch the stoppage the more I think that 2 more punches later and Groves was gone.

I kind of agree. I think Froch deserves more credit. He seems to be getting slated because folks think he got lucky. He didn't get lucky. He stuck in there and got back into a fight he was losing, turned it around, opened up, hurt his opponent to the point where the referee feel that his opponent was in serious trouble. The rest is all speculation.

wadacrack

clubwelly wrote: »

The more I watch the stoppage the more I think that 2 more punches later and Groves was gone.

I think Carl's a legend, but Groves nearly had all the right tactics from being clever with the head, holding Frochs arms at time which both frustrated the hell outa Carl.

I'd love to see the rematch but I can understand Froch wanting a big US payday of Chavez Jnr or Ward 2

Froch Groves two would be huge economically I would imagine.Ward is not that popular in the States. If Froch wants to cement his legacy he should fight Groves again. Froch often said that himself and Kessler are "true warriors". Well Kessler gave Froch his rematch If Froch is the warrior he claims he is.He should give Groves the rematch. I dont see it happening unfortunately

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and you have the luxury of analysing it over and over. A referee does not. He is there in the moment making a split second decision based on what he sees right in front of his eyes.

Well done but that's not what I was getting at all, but then you know that, you're just being obtuse. I saw the stoppage in isolation a few times and it looked bad enough. Seeing it with the build-up is even worse.
But hey, if you want to stick with "the referee did what he did, therefore it was right" line then go right ahead.

T-K-O

wadacrack wrote: »

Froch Groves two would be huge economically I would imagine.Ward is not that popular in the States. If Froch wants to cement his legacy he should fight Groves again. Froch often said that himself and Kessler are "true warriors". Well Kessler gave Froch his rematch If Froch is the warrior he claims he is.He should give Groves the rematch. I dont see it happening unfortunately

Regardless of his age and obvious decline? When is enough, enough? There will always be one more fight, the next kid on the block.

Remember, Carl did what Calazghae and Collins before him failed to do. He must be commended for that.

supersean1999

I won't be fooled.I Think Froch is awfully overrated. personality wise he makes my blood boil . So I find it hard to rate him as a boxer but the more I see him. And judge him im more convinced that he is just overrated bigtime. He has done ok for a man who lacks basic boxing skills.but His record is padded by dodgy decisions .you guys complain about sky hype jobs but a lot of you guys have been scammed. Id love to see him box . hopkins ggg then ward and see how he would fare out.

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

I won't be fooled.I Think Froch is awfully overrated. personality wise he makes my blood boil . So I find it hard to rate him as a boxer but the more I see him. And judge him im more convinced that he is just overrated bigtime. He has done ok for a man who lacks basic boxing skills.but His record is padded by dodgy decisions .you guys complain about sky hype jobs but a lot of you guys have been scammed. Id love to see him box . hopkins ggg then ward and see how he would fare out.

You lost me at 'His record is padded by dodgy decisions'

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

Regardless of his age and obvious decline? When is enough, enough? There will always be one more fight, the next kid on the block.

Remember, Carl did what Calazghae and Collins before him failed to do. He must be commended for that.

Calzaghe moved up a weight and fought hopkins. Clearly a harder fight than Froch. Collins retired. . What's your point

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

Calzaghe moved up a weight and fought hopkins. Clearly a harder fight than Froch. Collins retired. . What's your point

So did calzaghe then avoid Dawson? What if Carl retires?

'personality wise he makes my blood boil'

You're not thinking straight.

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

You lost me at 'His record is padded by dodgy decisions'

Groves . Dirrell. Sorry 2 dodgy decisions . He lost to kessler and ward schooled him. And he wAs lucky v lucky against Taylor. And wAs terrible against Johnson. He beat a mw in Abraham and a crap intetested fighter in Bute.

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

Groves . Dirrell. Sorry 2 dodgy decisions . He lost to kessler and ward schooled him. And he wAs lucky v lucky against Taylor. And wAs terrible against Johnson. He beat a mw in Abraham and a crap intetested fighter in Bute.

2 fights does not make a padded record. He avenged that loss to Kessler (that loss was a close fight BTW) No shame in loosing to Ward.

The rest is nonsense.

willmunny1990

clubwelly wrote: »

The more I watch the stoppage the more I think that 2 more punches later and Groves was gone.

I think Carl's a legend, but Groves nearly had all the right tactics from being clever with the head, holding Frochs arms at time which both frustrated the hell outa Carl.

I'd love to see the rematch but I can understand Froch wanting a big US payday of Chavez Jnr or Ward 2

Unfortunately we'll never find out due to the referee stopping the fight prematurely.

supersean1999

Look he is horrlbly overrated . He is just an average world champion because he is on sky getting hyped up. If Carl Froch wAs from the usa I doubt v much he would be a household name. I'm really suprised some people rate him so highly. He is more Woodall than ward that's his level.

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

Look he is horrlbly overrated . He is just an average world champion because he is on sky getting hyped up. If Carl Froch wAs from the usa I doubt v much he would be a household name. I'm really suprised some people rate him so highly. He is more Woodall than ward that's his level.

Ward is finding the US a tough market to crack. I'm not a fan of the ' USA is the mecca of boxing' crap.

Guys like Carl make boxing interesting. Taylor outboxed him but got KO'ed in the end, that's entertainment. That's what a tough albeit limited fighter can bring to the table.

Johner

T-K-O wrote: »

2 fights does not make a padded record. He avenged that loss to Kessler (that loss was a close fight BTW) No shame in loosing to Ward.

The rest is nonsense.

How is the rest nonsense though? The Dirrell fight was a dodgy hometown decision,most people had Dirrell. Taylor was beating him until he knocked him out, Abraham has been shown to be not world class. He was poor against a past it Glen Johnson, he beat a past it Kessler. Fair play to Froch though he has fought the best in the division and done well but he is hugely overrated. He has a great chin and has huge heart and will to win, but when it comes to boxing skills he is very limited and can be easily outboxed.

T-K-O

It's nonsense because he has two, I'll give you 2, controversial wins. That does not make his record padded.

Him not looking as sharp in certain fights is immaterial, he won. Name any boxer you like and I'll gladly pick apart his records ala your previous post.

supersean1999

Lads iv to go. The toy show is on . I'll be getting my two sons Carl and Froch boxing gloves for christmas :-).

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

It's nonsense because he has two, I'll give you 2, controversial wins. That does not make his record padded.

Him not looking as sharp in certain fights is immaterial, he won. Name any boxer you like and I'll gladly pick apart his records ala your previous post.

Ward

T-K-O

Froch is overrated (thanks)
Dawson was weight drained.
Abraham (read your previous post)
Kessler's best days were behind him.

He hasn't fought anyone else worth mentioning.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

Well done but that's not what I was getting at all, but then you know that, you're just being obtuse. I saw the stoppage in isolation a few times and it looked bad enough. Seeing it with the build-up is even worse.
But hey, if you want to stick with "the referee did what he did, therefore it was right" line then go right ahead.

So, what were you getting at?

Nothing to do with being obtuse. If you want to make out that what you see at home on the armchair is the same as what the referee sees and hears inches away from the fighters, then you go right ahead.

I never said the referee was right or wrong. There is no definitive right or wrong here. You do know that? There is still a section of folks who believe that the referee made the correct call. There is a section who think it was terrible, and there is those in the middle, like myself, who believe that it was stopped maybe a fraction early, but believe that the referee had a very difficult task in making the split second call.

darced

This post has been deleted.

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

Froch is overrated (thanks)
Dawson was weight drained.
Abraham (read your previous post)
Kessler's best days were behind him.

He hasn't fought anyone else worth mentioning.

But there all my words . You used all them to argue for Froch. So you can't use them to bash ward. Your beaten my friend :-). It's called checkmate

willmunny1990

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Who got knocked out?

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

But there all my words . You used all them to argue for Froch. So you can't use them to bash ward. Your beaten my friend :-). It's called checkmate

Actually, it's called missing the point entirely.

supersean1999

darced wrote: »

Ward and Dirrell are the only two to outbox him so far i.e beat him in a boxing match as for someone showing up with slicker skills for half a fight then getting knocked out,well what does that prove?

Ya groves wAs badly knocked out

darced

This post has been deleted.

walshb

Froch for me is nothing special, but I don't get this picking apart his record. The Dirrell fight was very close, so it shouldn't even be a factor. Dirrell is a very skilled boxer.

Taylor was out boxing him, big deal. Taylor couldn't make it the 36 minutes. Carl did the business. Is JCCs record padded? After all, he was schooled by Meldrick Taylor. Oh, but then he got the TKO in rd 12.

The Kessler fight was very close. The second Kessler fight was a deserved win for Froch.

I think a dislike for Froch the man may be clouding a lot of peoples opinions of him as a boxer and their opinions of his fight record.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

So, what were you getting at?

What I said in the first post, watching the fight as-live and not just the 2 seconds before the stoppage and it was even worse.

Nothing to do with being obtuse. If you want to make out that what you see at home on the armchair is the same as what the referee sees and hears inches away from the fighters, then you go right ahead.

So like I said, as far as you're concerned the referee can't be wrong.

I never said the referee was right or wrong. There is no definitive right or wrong here. You do know that? There is still a section of folks who believe that the referee made the correct call. There is a section who think it was terrible, and there is those in the middle, like myself, who believe that it was stopped maybe a fraction early, but believe that the referee had a very difficult task in making the split second call.

Difficult job, poor dear.
What do you reckon to the judges who had Groves just one round ahead? You really don't think anything about the fight stinks?

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

Actually, it's called missing the point entirely.

I think you have missed the point for the last 5 yrs

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

What I said in the first post, watching the fight as-live and not just the 2 seconds before the stoppage and it was even worse.


So like I said, as far as you're concerned the referee can't be wrong.


Difficult job, poor dear.
What do you reckon to the judges who had Groves just one round ahead? You really don't think anything about the fight stinks?

If you want to believe that I said the referee can't be wrong, again, go right ahead! You are obviously not reading closely enough what I am writing. Three sections of folks.

1. Those who believe the referee made the correct call.
2.Those who believe that he made the incorrect (bad/terrible) call.
3. Those in the middle who think that he made the incorrect call, but who think it fractionally early and that they realise that the referee has split second decisions to make in very dangerous positions.

I am in group 3. There you go.

As for the card score. I scored it 78-73 Groves. Identical to one judge. Now, a couple of the rds I do recall could have went either way. That easily could see it being marked 76-75 Groves. Two judges had this score.

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

I think you have missed the point for the last 5 yrs

Ah, so when Froch beats Abraham he's a bum but on Wards record he's a world champion. Gotcha

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

If you want to believe that I said the referee can't be wrong, again, go right ahead! You are obviously not reading closely enough what I am writing. Three sections of folks.

1. Those who believe the referee made the correct call.
2.Those who believe that he made the incorrect (bad/terrible) call.
3. Those in the middle who think that he made the incorrect call, but who think it fractionally early and that they realise that the referee has split second decisions to make in very dangerous positions.

I am in group 3. There you go.

As for the card score. I scored it 78-73 Groves. Identical to one judge. Now, a couple of the rds I do recall could have went either way. That easily could see it being marked 76-75 Groves. Two judges had this score.

So you want to put on the record it could easily be scored 76-75 .

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

So you want to put on the record it could easily be scored 76-75 .

Again missing the point.

He's saying the rounds were close, judges are not robots, close rounds can go either way.

walshb

supersean1999 wrote: »

So you want to put on the record it could easily be scored 76-75 .

Like I said, I do recall when I was marking it that 1-2 rds had me indecisive. I awarded them to Groves, but I wouldn't argue with someone awarding them to Froch.

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

Ah, so when Froch beats Abraham he's a bum but on Wards record he's a world champion. Gotcha

No there both the same a bloated mw. Ward beat kessler easy. Froch lost. Ward beat Froch easy. Froch has been outboxed by dirrell groves and taylor . Ward has not been outboxed in one or two rounds as a pro. So pick a hole in wards record you said you could :-)

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

Like I said, I do recall when I was marking it that 1-2 rds had me indecisive. I awarded them to Groves, but I wouldn't argue with someone awarding them to Froch.

walshb

Taylor and Dirrell are/were very very skilled boxers. Ward never met them. Nobody can know how he would fare. Froch knocked one out and won a close decision against the other in a cloise close fight. Remember, Dirrell was well ahead of AA before the KO. That's how skilled and difficult an opponent Dirrell is.

walshb

supersean1999 wrote: »

What does this mean?

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

No there both the same a bloated mw. Ward beat kessler easy. Froch lost. Ward beat Froch easy. Froch has been outboxed by dirrell groves and taylor . Ward has not been outboxed in one or two rounds as a pro. So pick a hole in wards record you said you could :-)

I did, for the sake of the argument, he beat no one.

Froch is a limited boxer. Kessler past his best. Abraham was a limited MW. Dawson was weight drained.

Remember we are NOT comparing records!

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

I did, for the sake of the argument, he beat no one.

Froch is a limited boxer. Kessler past his best. Abraham was a limited MW. Dawson was weight drained.

Remember we are NOT comparing records!

So you can't pick one thing wrong with ward. U said you could. Sorry for pulling u up on it again but you can't or wont answer

supersean1999

walshb wrote: »

What does this mean?

That means you have fairly changed your opinion from the morning after the fight . Seen as u watched it on the internet. After you seen 95% of people thinking it was a crazy decision. Walshb has decided to argue as usual for the sake of it.

supersean1999

Later

willmunny1990

supersean1999 wrote: »

Later

Bye.

supersean1999

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Bye.

I'm up at 6 this nonsense needs to end :-)

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

So you can't pick one thing wrong with ward. U said you could. Sorry for pulling u up on it again but you can't or wont answer

I'll bite.

Not Ward HIS record. You're confused.

Anyway

I just rubbished every 'decent' fighter on Wards record. If you have a counter to that, Im all ears.

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

I'll bite.

Not Ward HIS record. You're confused.

Anyway

I just rubbished every 'decent' fighter on Wards record. If you have a counter to that, Im all ears.

Yes but by rubishing them you have rubished Froch more. But you SaY Froch is not overrated etc etc .

T-K-O

supersean1999 wrote: »

Yes but by rubishing them you have rubished Froch more. But you SaY Froch is not overrated etc etc .

Just a little reminder, We are discussing Ward and his record.

supersean1999

You admitted Froch wAs outboxed . You know he wAs beaten. You know he had been lucky. So please explain . When ward has been outboxed. When he has been beaten . If you can't do that you can't pick a hole in his record so less of the word twisting.

supersean1999

T-K-O wrote: »

I'll bite.

Not Ward HIS record. You're confused.

Anyway

I just rubbished every 'decent' fighter on Wards record. If you have a counter to that, Im all ears.

You have just rubbished every decent fighter on wards record so are you rubbishing Froch ??????