Delusions of ability - sub 2:50 Frankfurt or bust

thewolf_ie

Sorry to hear that. Hope it clear up soon.

T runner

It's now day three of no running, and the hip is less tender, but still sore and pretty damn tight. Specifically there's a tender spot around one of the bony lumps at the back on the right. My internet sleuthing makes me think it's one of the ligaments around the sacrum or possibly the joint, but I'm far from sure. There don't appear to be any local physios where we're staying (Sagres, Portugal), so right now the plan is to stretch, foam roll (managed to smuggle it along), and wait it out for the next week until back in Ireland. I'm *hoping* it's resolved before then, but this is a new one on me, and it's not fading quickly so who knows.

Pigeon Stretch is a good one for that area. Warm weather will help with the stretching/mending. Swim will loosen it out too. Enjoy holiday and hope it clears soon.

thewolf_ie

T runner wrote: »

Pigeon Stretch is a good one for that area. Warm weather will help with the stretching/mending. Swim will loosen it out too. Enjoy holiday and hope it clears soon.

I was going to recommend this. I had awful glute issue until I started doing this daily.

cianc

Free time and no running makes Cian a dull boy.
Free time and no runnini makes Cian a dull boy.
Free time and no run inggmakes Cian a dull boy.
tree timeaand no running makek Cian a dull boy.
Free time and no running makes nian e dudl noy.
Free nime nd no runningrmakes Cianma dull boy.
Free timeaand no bunnnng dakes Cian a dulo boy.
dree time and no eu ningemaken Cian a dill goy.
lree t menand no runnine mases Cian a dull b y.
Free tnme nd no running ga esaCian audult boy.
Free eim and an running makeemCian a o ll biy.
Fneemtime an no unningnmakes Cian a iueldbCy.
Freenmine and no runn ng makeslCian atd ll Coy.


Hip/glute/sciatic nerve slowly improving. Thanks for all the words of encouragement and stretching advice (I don't have the flexibility to do the Pigeon properly, but I can do enough to really feel it). I'm also performing daily mortification of the piriformis with a tennis ball. Anything that hurts that much has to be good for me.

ThebitterLemon

C,

I did some figure of 4 piriformis stretches when mine was very tight.

I found them really really good and got results pretty quickly.

Can't post a link at the moment but if you google them you'll come across a few variants (if you don't know them already)

TbL

cianc

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

C,

I did some figure of 4 piriformis stretches when mine was very tight.

I found them really really good and got results pretty quickly.

Can't post a link at the moment but if you google them you'll come across a few variants (if you don't know them already)

TbL

Thanks TbL, I know it well (plus a few bastardised variations I came up with myself).

I think I may have overdone it a tad with the tennis ball and impinged on the sciatic nerve, but hoping to go for a short trot tomorrow.

Best page I've found so far for the piriformus:

http://running.competitor.com/2014/03/photos/beat-piriformis-syndrome_98201

It includes something very like the pigeon pose, but with a warmup and is better suited to those of us with terrible flexibility

Gavlor

I have the solution for you right here....

cianc

Gavlor wrote: »

I have the solution for you right here....

It's just a minor injury Gavlor, I'm still a few years away from the mid-life crisis :P

cianc

Saturday, 4E @7:37
Things had been improving for the last few days, so decided to go for a test spin. I intentionally picked the hottest part of the day to a) make sure I didn't get carried away, b) help keep the muscles loose, c) overlap with the youngest's nap so it didn't cost me brownie points
Was....weird. Combination of six days no running and altered gait from the injury meant the motion felt a bit unfamiliar. On the other hand, six days off meant the body was refreshed and raring to go, but not allowed to. On the third hand, every step produced a tiny sensation in the upper glute (a bit like an electric shock, or tickle, or dry needling for those who've suffered). Anyway, things didn't get worse during or after the run so that's a win.


Sunday, AM - 5E @8:05, PM - 5.1E @7:23
Felt no bad effects from the day before, so decided to push the boat out with a short double. The first was very hilly, but felt great, with significantly less discomfort than the day before. The second was a much flatter affair, that felt better than the day before, but worse than the morning (sciatic pain, some stiffness). So a mixed bag.

Monday, nada
My optimistic plan on Sunday morning was to do a session here, but it would have been stupid given how the body was feeling, and I seem to have gained a few IQ points on holiday. Must be all the beer. I also made a physio appointment for Wednesday once I was back in Dub land.

Tuesday, 6.2E @7:19
We flew home. On the shuttle bus to the airport, I sat in a sulk looking out the window at all the lovely trails I didn't get to run. Several hours later we were home in Dublin, and Mrs C very diplomatically asked if maybe I shouldn't go for just a short run, just to cheer myself up. She's a wise, compassionate woman, who doesn't want to do time for bludgeoning her husband to death for being a misery guts. Anyway, 6 miles later and I was in much better form, and the body felt surprisingly OK.

Wednesday, 1.6E, 5x(1T, 1min recovery), 0.5E, 0.5T, 1.5E
Classic me: "I'm seeing the physio today. He's probably going to tell me to take it easy for a few days. Better get a session in now. Also, if it goes well than that's great, and if I make things worse then it just makes the diagnoses easier right? Right?"
It went well (from an injury point of view anyway). Ran this over at Porterstown park for the first time and misjudged the pace and terrain. It was supposed to be 6x1T, but I knew by the fourth rep that it was going to be five max. The stomach was not happy, which is usually the flashing red light for me on speed sessions. The lap is rolling, with the first half being mostly down hill, and the second half having the uphill drag.
Goal was < 6:20. Mile splits were: 6:09(mental), 6:16, 6:14, 6:16, 6:18. No idea of the 0.5T at the end, but effort felt appropriate.

Quick shower and off the physio. In a break with tradition it was almost all positive. I can run the DL 10km on Monday. I should stick with easy runs until the back/hip feels better (Hoping a couple of days given recent progress). There's no big underlying problem, just my regular lower back weakness. We agreed I should probably drop the mileage a bit (I'd been thinking as much recently anyway), and be a bit more diligent about the core work. He even told me I'd done the right thing in backing off last week when things got bad. Wouldn't have happened last year, I would have tried to run through it and *boom*! Getting old and boring

Some things I learned during the latest injury scare:
1. Stretching can help with piriformis tightness, but if you're having problems with the sciatic nerve, it can make that worse. Short (20-30s) stretches are better than longer one.
2. Foam rolling/tennis ball massage are great, but it's easy to overdo it and end up with sore muscles all the time. You also need to be careful when using a ball on the glute because it's easy to upset the sciatic nerve.
3. "Take your injury recovery as seriously as your training". Wise words, but remember that taking it seriously doesn't mean inflicting pain. The aim of recovery is......recovery. Doing four times as many stretches as usual and torturing yourself with deep massage four times a day will probably make things worse.

Phew, good to have that off my chest

ThebitterLemon

Good to see you back reasonably unscathed C

TbL

cianc

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Good to see you back reasonably unscathed C

TbL

Thanks TbL, and thanks again for the words of encouragement and advise during "The Big Injury Scare of 2014" as it shall forever be known.
I see you're doing The Streets of Galway next, anything else of the race calendar yet?

ThebitterLemon

cianc wrote: »

Thanks TbL, and thanks again for the words of encouragement and advise during "The Big Injury Scare of 2014" as it shall forever be known.
I see you're doing The Streets of Galway next, anything else of the race calendar yet?

Hey C,

Longford HM, I'm looking around for a 10 milers and a couple of 5 & 10k's.

Was gonna do a warm up marathon but someone with a lot more sense than me has made me see the light in that regard!

How about you?

TbL

cianc

DL 10km, Frank Duffy 10M, DCM Half, and maybe the Athlone Half, and of course Frankfurt Doesn't look like we'll cross paths in the near future so, maybe later in the year!

ThebitterLemon

Good luck tomorrow Cian.

Enjoy it

TbL

cianc

Thursday, 6E @7:35

Friday, 6.3E @7:43

Saturday, 2.7E, 6x(1km I, 3min recovery), 2.6E
Disaster of a session. First of all, the glute still isn't clearing up. It's also not getting much/any worse (hard to tell when the changes are small). It was stiff and sore before the session and that put me in a bad mood. Then I decided to do this down at the local green area rather than hauling myself the extra miles to the polo grounds. This turned out to be a mistake, too many sharp angles and uneven surfaces. Finally, the reps themselves were brutally slow and tough. The aim was 3:37/km, but I ended up with: 3:43 (:eek:), 3:39, 3:36, 3:38, ??, 3:45(:eek:). ?? is me hitting the wrong button on the watch. Not sure what the hell happened on the first rep, and I was well and truly tired and pissed off on the last lap. That's a lot slower than recent weeks.

Sunday, off - flip/flopping on this injury. Can't decide whether to rest it, or keep going, grrr.


DL 10K race in 38:48 + 2wup/down + 4.1E recovery
Physio said I could run this, so I ran it. Never mind being sensible. It was not my best race. Some combination of current poor form, heat and hills translated into 38:48, almost a minute slower than Dunshaughlin 6 weeks ago :mad:
I also managed to get stuck wwwaaayy at the back of the pack which made for a very grumpy me for the first 1.5k as I played dodge-the-jogger.

I have a physio appointment for Wednesday, but I'm going to see if I can get it bumped to tomorrow. I'm well and truly pissed off with this glute issue that can't decide whether it's a niggle or an injury and doesn't respond much of either way to whatever I do. It would almost be a relief if she tells me to rest up for x days. I don't mean that. Timing sucks too since I'm away with work for a week this Friday. Poor me, wah wah :rolleyes:

I'll echo what other have said about an excellently organized race though. Plus a great setting and great weather (for spectators anyway!).

ThebitterLemon

Cian,

I'd rest it up one way or another. It seems to be playing on your mind and translating into your sessions. Have you had a good massage done on it recently?

I was running for weeks in discomfort and Ecoli had me back to new pretty quickly. For me personally I'd always go to a running masseur for a few sessions before I'd darken the physios door.

Best of luck with it.

TbL

thewolf_ie

Cancel your appointment and go to Ecoli!

cianc

Physio says no running until it's pain free. Damn her common sense. Ecoli has managed to fit me in this week too, so hopefully that will help (maybe he can give me a less sensible second opinion!).
Time to explore the gym I guess

Duanington

Its the only way really isn't it?

Can't be good running with pain or even the constant doubts around the injury

ThePiedPiper

There's always bound to be a setback or two in marathon training. Accept it, take the time off for a few days as rest, and you'll hit the specific marathon training in much better shape.

Poltergeist

I'm heading to Frankfurt also ... and also suffering from my share of niggles/injuries!

Get better soon.

AuldManKing

sorry to hear that Cian - any timeframe for recovery?

cianc

Thanks for the kind words all, I'm an awful moaney fecker when I'm injured.

AuldManKing wrote: »

sorry to hear that Cian - any timeframe for recovery?

(Welcome back AMK!)

Not really, more of a "it'll be better when it's better" kind of thing. Obviously I'd prefer sooner rather than later, but that's the kind of attitude that got me into this mess
I'll be hitting the spin bike/elliptical trainer ASAP providing it doesn't make things worse, and fingers crossed that will be enough to maintain fitness for the duration.
Had a great (well painful) session with ecoli this morning where he confirmed my amateur diagnosis of a dodgy piriformis impinging on the sciatic nerve. That's actually good news since I was worried it might be a back thing.
Off to Silicon Valley for a week (typing this somewhere over the Atlantic. What a time to be alive!), and between the lack of familial responsibilities, a gym where I'm staying and the various gyms at work there's no excuse not to get the cross training in!

jfh

well Cianc, any update on the recovery?

cianc

jfh wrote: »

well Cianc, any update on the recovery?

Hey JFH. As is the custom I have been mostly skulking while doing the recovery thing.
I've been doing my penance on the spin bike (intervals on a stationary bike are the worst thing in the world, worse than a treadmill), and tonight I went for my first run in two weeks. A whopping 2.1M @7:40. Providing there's no big disimprovement when I wake up tomorrow, I'll try increasing gradually over the next few days.
Have to say that going to see ecoli was the best thing I could have done (thanks TbL). Even if things take longer to improve than I hope, it's great to have a solid diagnosis and a clear plan.

ThebitterLemon

Good to see you back on the road to recovery Cian.

TbL

cianc

Well, in case it wasn't blindingly obvious, recovery took longer than expected, and Frankfurt never happened. The good news is that I'm finally, properly on the mend. A few 50M+ weeks under the belt, and got the all clear today from a Doc out in Santry Sports Clinic. Still a bit of ache in the glute, but it's slowly disappearing. Big thanks again to ecoli for sorting me out through judicious application of pain.

I haven't given up on the sub-2:50, and I'm dithering between Paris and Vienna in April. I was a little unsure about running a spring marathon, but after watching DCM and reading the various logs I can't feckin wait (you're a bunch of inspirational SoBs).

Anyway, no more blow-by-blow updates since it's all on Strava (http://www.strava.com/athletes/764118) these days. Expect summaries, highlights, lowlights, whinging and if the stars align just so, a marathon race report in 5 months.

ThebitterLemon

cianc wrote: »

Well, in case it wasn't blindingly obvious, recovery took longer than expected, and Frankfurt never happened. The good news is that I'm finally, properly on the mend. A few 50M+ weeks under the belt, and got the all clear today from a Doc out in Santry Sports Clinic. Still a bit of ache in the glute, but it's slowly disappearing. Big thanks again to ecoli for sorting me out through judicious application of pain.

I haven't given up on the sub-2:50, and I'm dithering between Paris and Vienna in April. I was a little unsure about running a spring marathon, but after watching DCM and reading the various logs I can't feckin wait (you're a bunch of inspirational SoBs).

Anyway, no more blow-by-blow updates since it's all on Strava (http://www.strava.com/athletes/764118) these days. Expect summaries, highlights, lowlights, whinging and if the stars align just so, a marathon race report in 5 months.

Good to have you back CianC, glad to see you seem to have finally shifted the injury.

TbL

Duanington

Great stuff Cian

AuldManKing

Welcome back, your going nicely with a few good speed sessions.
I'm away this week, but might hook up the following week if your interested.

ThebitterLemon

AuldManKing wrote: »

Welcome back, your going nicely with a few good speed sessions.
I'm away this week, but might hook up the following week if your interested.

Ah here FFS, he's only back and you're cosying up to him !!!!

TbL

AuldManKing

We were Strava buddies for the last few months.........we get our kicks in different places!

cianc

AuldManKing wrote:

Welcome back, your going nicely with a few good speed sessions.
I'm away this week, but might hook up the following week if your interested.

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Ah here FFS, he's only back and you're cosying up to him !!!!

TbL

Nice to see some things haven't changed

cianc

AuldManKing wrote: »

Welcome back, your going nicely with a few good speed sessions.
I'm away this week, but might hook up the following week if your interested.

Sounds good, give me a shout when you're back.

cianc

Right, just signed up for Paris, April 12th, 2015. A few weeks building the fitness back up, then it's cianc Vs JD, round 2!

ThebitterLemon

cianc wrote: »

Right, just signed up for Paris, April 12th, 2015. A few weeks building the fitness back up, then it's cianc Vs JD, round 2!

Hey Cian,

Great stuff re Paris.

I know very little about running but that JD plan seems to burn out a lot of people, any particular reason why you're sticking to it?

TbL

cianc

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Hey Cian,

Great stuff re Paris.

I know very little about running but that JD plan seems to burn out a lot of people, any particular reason why you're sticking to it?

TbL

Good question TbL, I wish I had a better answer. Reasons in decreasing order of quality:
i) I used a P&D plan to get me to 2:54. It was a good plan, but not very flexible, and maybe not tough enough to get me sub-2:50. JD is both flexible and tough.
ii) I don't know of another off-the-shelf plan that fits the above.
iii) Feels like unfinished business.
iv) I have a copy of the JD book.

I do plan on taking things a little handier this time. No trying to jump to the harder plan from the 3rd edition, maxing out at 70-75M instead of 80-85M, and keeping up with the strength and flexibility work from this round of rehab.

That said, suggestions for a better plan welcome

ThebitterLemon

cianc wrote: »

Good question TbL, I wish I had a better answer. Reasons in decreasing order of quality:
i) I used a P&D plan to get me to 2:54. It was a good plan, but not very flexible, and maybe not tough enough to get me sub-2:50. JD is both flexible and tough.
ii) I don't know of another off-the-shelf plan that fits the above.
iii) Feels like unfinished business.
iv) I have a copy of the JD book.

I do plan on taking things a little handier this time. No trying to jump to the harder plan from the 3rd edition, maxing out at 70-75M instead of 80-85M, and keeping up with the strength and flexibility work from this round of rehab.

That said, suggestions for a better plan welcome

Not trying to be a smart arse Cian, but you're getting down to times that might justify something individual rather than an generic plan. I know lots of the faster lads guys still use generic plans but with your injury history it might be beneficial to sit down with someone knowledgeable, go through your history and tailor a plan accordingly.

Just my 2c, not trying to interfere

TbL

AuldManKing

He's just interfering, Cian.

ThebitterLemon

AuldManKing wrote: »

He's just interfering, Cian.

I'll show you interfering when you run with me again ya fecker

TbL

cianc

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I'll show you interfering when you run with me again ya fecker

TbL

Oh Matron.

jfh

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Not trying to be a smart arse Cian, but you're getting down to times that might justify something individual rather than an generic plan. I know lots of the faster lads guys still use generic plans but with your injury history it might be beneficial to sit down with someone knowledgeable, go through your history and tailor a plan accordingly.

Just my 2c, not trying to interfere

TbL

he might be on to something! in the same boat myself, i like the idea of going with the JD again but i'm leaning towards getting a coach for the next attempt. if i was brave enough to attempt it again, i would drop the MP sessions to MP + 5- 10 sec, that's just my own personal thoughts, perhaps completely wrong.

out of interest, what was the glute issue?
we both got injured around the same time, you did the wise thing & stopped.
I continued on, stop/start but completed the marathon, now i'm trying to recover, no running but no improvement.:mad:

cianc

jfh wrote: »

he might be on to something! in the same boat myself, i like the idea of going with the JD again but i'm leaning towards getting a coach for the next attempt. if i was brave enough to attempt it again, i would drop the MP sessions to MP + 5- 10 sec, that's just my own personal thoughts, perhaps completely wrong.

I have an idea. You coach me, and I'll coach you.

out of interest, what was the glute issue?
we both got injured around the same time, you did the wise thing & stopped.
I continued on, stop/start but completed the marathon, now i'm trying to recover, no running but no improvement.:mad:

Eh, don't give me too much credit. I stopped because I had to. The pain was steadily getting worse and try as I might, I couldn't fool myself anymore. Piriformis syndrome was the problem, and a real bear to shift.
Sorry to hear about the slow recovery. What's the rehab prognosis on the tendinopathy? Can you do any cross training? As much as I hated it, I'm glad I was able to do some bike work while injured. Although it got to the stage where I was jealous of people on the treadmill. You know it's bad when you're idea of a good time is the treadmill

cianc

Summary for October:
* Back running regularly \o/
* Glute healed, only minor tightness left, double \o/
* Mileage: 194
* Races: none
* Injuries: none (well, no new ones)
* Highlight: Making racing plans. On y vas a Paris.
* Lowlight: Back pain for no apparent reason. Getting old is terrible. Seems to be clearing up quickly though.

Plans for November:
* No races.
* Start a marathon plan. Ecoli has given me some advice (thanks for pointing me that way TbL) and I'll be avoiding JD this time around.
* Stay injury free.

Duanington

Just curious Cian - why are you avoiding JD?

cianc

Duanington wrote: »

Just curious Cian - why are you avoiding JD?

The short version is that it probably played a big role in me getting injured last time, and it's not unlikely it will again given my history. I may give it a shot at some point down the road when I've been injury free for a good while and trust the body to be strong enough.

cianc

Belated Summary for November:

• First solid month, really enjoying the plan I stole from Ecolii. Lots of variety
• Quality sessions have included:
  • 15M LSR
  • 10x800
  • Progression
  • 20x400
  • Tempo
  • Steady, steady/tempo
  • 5x1600
• Up to 60M PW so far, 65 next week with any luck.
• Mileage: 191
• Races: None
• Injuries: Lost a few days to a self-diagnosed illiolumbar ligament strain, ironically enough I reckon it was the stretching from the Piriformis injury that did it.
• Highlight: 20x400ms without dying.
• Lowlight: bailing on the last the rep of the 6x1M session. Legs said yes, but the stomach said "maybe, but I hope you don't like these shorts".

Plans for December:

• Jingle Bells 5km and Aware 10km
• Hit 70M PW.
• Keep injury free.

Might switch to weekly log updates to keep me honest.

blockic

Just checking up on your progress, you had a serious last 3 weeks there, 21 days straight is great consistancy. What happened this week?

What's your afterthoughts on your Jingle Bells run?

cianc

blockic wrote: »

Just checking up on your progress, you had a serious last 3 weeks there, 21 days straight is great consistancy. What happened this week?

What's your afterthoughts on your Jingle Bells run?

Damn you and your observational skills and calling me out in public :P
Had a flare up around the right Achilles at the end of a short run last week. Took a couple of days off, then had to pull up after 4M into an easy run. Took another couple of days off with lots of foam rolling of the calves, and did 2M slow today without any problems. I'm kind of freaking out since I've never had Achilles problems before but everyone talks about them like one of the signs of the apocalypse. I'm also not sure exactly what the problem is since it doesn't seem to match a lot of the symptoms for Achilles tendinopathy: It got worse during the run, not better, feels fine in the morning, not stiff, and there's not really any pain to speak of when I touch the tendon. But, there's not much else in the area to go wrong, so *shrug*.
The current very cautious plan is to alternate running days and days on the elliptical trainer over the next week or so, gradually bringing the distance up, and praying like a condemned man that it works itself out.

Nothing very interesting to say about Jingle Bells I'm afraid. It's about what I expected for my current level of fitness. It usually takes me a few months of solid training before I start to show some form, and I'm not built for the fast stuff at all

I see you're back knocking out the mileage and sessions yourself. Don't envy you at all in that weather.

blockic

Maybe it was those 21 days straight?!

Hope ya get it sorted anyway. Yeah, thankfully its quite mild for December here at the moment so making the most of it and getting as many miles in as i can, when Jan / Feb roll around I doubt I will be so lucky.