Heineken & Amlin Cup 2013/14 General Discussion

Rightwing

I don't think we've a great squad, but we're lucky, like leinster, that we managed to sneak into an easy H cup group

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't think we've a great squad, but we're lucky, like leinster, that we managed to sneak into an easy H cup group

How in jebus' name is Leinster's group easy? Munster definitely have a better group. Please explain that one!

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

How in jebus' name is Leinster's group easy? Munster definitely have a better group. Please explain that one!

Do you even know who is in Leinster's group ?

Ospreys, complete losers
Castres, never give a hoot about it
Saints, good for 2 or 3 games and then fall apart.

jamiedav2011

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't think we've a great squad, but we're lucky, like leinster, that we managed to sneak into an easy H cup group

Ospreys, Northampton & Castres is easy, and comparable to Glos, Perpignan and Edinburgh.

This should be an interesting one...

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

Do you even know who is in Leinster's group ?

Ospreys, complete losers
Castres, never give a hoot about it
Saints, good for 2 or 3 games and then fall apart.

Ospreys, the ultimate trolls of Irish Rugby. I don't understand how you can call them 'complete losers' tbh.
Castres, French champions with a brilliant home record who have convinced the best scrum-half in France to stay on. They were close to qualifying for the knockouts so they do "give a hoot".
Saints, a good English side that have signed two world class players (Fotuali'i and North)

Let's compare:

Edinburgh - They're "complete losers"! One of the worst teams in the competition.
Perpignan - Not the force they were and the weakest French side in the competition. However they have made some good signings (Lopez, Benvenuti)
Gloucester - A young English side, admittedly I've seen little of them but they seem to be well thought off.

athtrasna

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't think we've a great squad, but we're lucky, like leinster, that we managed to sneak into an easy H cup group

Our group is theoretically waay easier than Leinster's!

We have a great squad when it comes to second rows, back rows & wingers, a good squad at centre & full back cover. Light in front row and half backs, the thought of injury to one of the key five players is scary but not terrifying. Sometimes injury forces people to step up to the plate and shine, look at the meteoric rise of Conor Murray.

I'm excited about our Heineken Cup group, if we can mind our players I'm looking forward to the games. Hoping to head to Gloucester away in January.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ospreys, the ultimate trolls of Irish Rugby. I don't understand how you can call them 'complete losers' tbh.
Castres, French champions with a brilliant home record who have convinced the best scrum-half in France to stay on. They were close to qualifying for the knockouts so they do "give a hoot".
Saints, a good English side that have signed two world class players (Fotuali'i and North)

Ah they're not, I don't think they ever stopped an Irish team from progressing? Can't remember how many times munster have done a number on them in H cup. Ospreys are 40/1

Castres are 55/1, I'd need at 100/1 to back them. Saints at 28/1.

I don't think the bookies basically rate those teams either.

Micky Dolenz

Racing may be worth a punt at 20/1

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

Ah they're not, I don't think they ever stopped an Irish team from progressing? Can't remember how many times munster have done a number on them in H cup. Ospreys are 40/1

Castres are 55/1, I'd need at 100/1 to back them. Saints at 28/1.

I don't think the bookies basically rate those teams either.

Castres were excellent in the Top14 playoffs, I'd be very wary of them from a Leinster perspective.

Sorry, the Munster and Leinster groups aren't comparable IMO. Would you rather have Ospreys or Edinburgh, Gloucester or Northampton?

jamiedav2011

Rightwing wrote: »

Ah they're not, I don't think they ever stopped an Irish team from progressing? Can't remember how many times munster have done a number on them in H cup. Ospreys are 40/1

Castres are 55/1, I'd need at 100/1 to back them. Saints at 28/1.

I don't think the bookies basically rate those teams either.

Actually no, not feeding you fella.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Castres were excellent in the Top14 playoffs, I'd be very wary of them from a Leinster perspective.

Sorry, the Munster and Leinster groups aren't comparable IMO. Would you rather have Ospreys or Edinburgh, Gloucester or Northampton?

You are going off on a tangent. Basically I'm saying they are 2 easy groups. The bookies are giving no one else in Leinster's group a chance.

There's no standout threat like Leicester. They could easily beat Ulster.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

You are going off on a tangent. Basically I'm saying they are 2 easy groups. The bookies are giving no one else in Leinster's group a chance.

That's because Leinster are rated superior to Munster.

Take out the provinces from the group and look at the other three sides. Which is the tougher group of three teams, all other things being equal? That's the perspective I'm taking.

In short, Leinster's group = Average to tough. Munster's group = Favourable to Average. Munster would struggle to get out of a group of Ospreys, Castres, Northampton in my opinion.

Rightwing

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Actually no, not feeding you fella.

There is a draw, and I imagine that Clermont's 'draw' is a little harder.

Clermont/Quins/Racing/Scarlets or Ulster's draw also looks a little hard.

Micky Dolenz

thomond2006 wrote: »

That's because Leinster are rated superior to Munster.

Take out the provinces from the group and look at the other three sides. Which is the tougher group of three teams, all other things being equal? That's the perspective I'm taking.

In short, Leinster's group = Average to tough. Munster's group = Favourable to Average

Why would you look at it that way. The draw is made and everything isn't equal.

Leinster are the best team by a shot in their group and would be everyones favourite to get out of the group easily.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

That's because Leinster are rated superior to Munster.

Take out the provinces from the group and look at the other three sides. Which is the tougher group of three teams, all other things being equal? That's the perspective I'm taking.

In short, Leinster's group = Average to tough. Munster's group = Favourable to Average

That's not the case. Look at Clermont @ 5/1 Racing 20/1, Quins 25/1 ,,,all from the same group.

Ulster got the toughest of the Irish, by a distance.

thomond2006

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Why would you look at it that way. The draw is made and everything isn't equal.

Leinster are the best team by a shot in their group and would be everyones favourite to get out of the group easily.

If we're comparing the toughness of groups from the Irish perspective then surely you're only analysing their opponents? I'm looking at it with a view of "Which group would I prefer as a Munster fan?"

Rightwing

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Why would you look at it that way. The draw is made and everything isn't equal.

Leinster are the best team by a shot in their group and would be everyones favourite to get out of the group easily.

Spot on.

Micky Dolenz

thomond2006 wrote: »

If we're comparing the toughness of groups from the Irish perspective then surely you're only analysing their opponents? I'm looking at it with a view of "Which group would I prefer as a Munster fan?"

Yeah, but the draw is made so we know who our opponents are. Munster and Leinster got favourable draws. I wouldn't be comparing Munster in other groups as I don't need to.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

That's not the case. Look at Clermont @ 5/1 Racing 20/1, Quins 25/1 ,,,all from the same group.

Ulster got the toughest of the Irish, by a distance.

I'm not concerned with outright tournament odds. I'm simply concerned with my perception of the easier group to qualify from. I can't see how a group of Ospreys, Castres, Northampton is comparable to a group of Edinburgh, Perpignan, Gloucester in that sense.

Buer

Rightwing wrote: »

Ah they're not, I don't think they ever stopped an Irish team from progressing? Can't remember how many times munster have done a number on them in H cup. Ospreys are 40/1

They beat Munster in 2010/11 which was a hammer blow to their getting out of the pool.

They've a top class pack and it would be madness to take them lightly especially when you take 2 minutes to look at the sides that have gone to Swansea in the HEC in the last few years and haven't managed to win.

thomond2006

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Yeah, but the draw is made so we know who our opponents are. Munster and Leinster got favourable draws. I wouldn't be comparing Munster in other groups as I don't need to.

Fair enough, but that's not where I'm coming from.

Rightwing

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not concerned with outright tournament odds. I'm simply concerned with my perception of the easier group to qualify from. I can't see how a group of Ospreys, Castres, Northampton is comparable to a group of Edinburgh, Perpignan, Gloucester in that sense.

I can, because none of those 6 teams are up to much. It 'should' be easy to get out of them.

That's why the bookies will give you odds of 55/1 on Castres, they don't rate them. No other reason.

Micky Dolenz

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not concerned with outright tournament odds. I'm simply concerned with my perception of the easier group to qualify from. I can't see how a group of Ospreys, Castres, Northampton is comparable to a group of Edinburgh, Perpignan, Gloucester in that sense.

But in fairness you don't support Leinster.

Let me put it this way. IF Leinster were in our group they would walk it. If we were in their group it would be tough going. But they are not and we are not so we can only compare the actual teams in their respective groups.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

I can, because none of those 6 teams are up to much. It 'should' be easy to get out of them.

That's why the bookies will give you odds of 55/1 on Castres, they don't rate them. No other reason.

Grouping those six sides into one bunch is very strange. How can you compare Castres to Edinburgh? Just because a side can't win a Heineken Cup it doesn't mean they can't derail someone else's season. I am only talking about the Irish sides' chances of qualifying, you seem obsessed with odds for winning the tournament!

Buer

Rightwing wrote: »

That's why the bookies will give you odds of 55/1 on Castres, they don't rate them. No other reason.

No, it's because they aren't a backed side. That's why. Montpellier would have been a similar side a year ago, probably longer odds. Bookies will set their odds according to how heavily a side will be backed not because they don't rate them.

Rightwing

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

But in fairness you don't support Leinster.

Let me put it this way. IF Leinster were in our group they would walk it. If we were in their group it would be tough going. But they are not and we are not so we can only compare the actual teams in their respective groups.

The sad thing is, we'll struggle in our group too, even though it's as easy as you could hope for.

Tox56

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

But in fairness you don't support Leinster.

Let me put it this way. IF Leinster were in our group they would walk it. If we were in their group it would be tough going. But they are not and we are not so we can only compare the actual teams in their respective groups.

The gap between Leinster and Munster is not (or next season at least, won't be) as great as you appear to be suggesting.

EDIT: Reading that again I don't actually know what you're suggesting

Micky Dolenz

Rightwing wrote: »

The sad thing is, we'll struggle in our group too, even though it's as easy as you could hope for.

I'd be fairly confident we'll do ok barring injury.

Rightwing

Buer wrote: »

No, it's because they aren't a backed side. That's why. Montpellier would have been a similar side a year ago, probably longer odds. Bookies will set their odds according to how heavily a side will be backed not because they don't rate them.

No. Just No, They'd be out of business if that was their reasoning.

Micky Dolenz

Tox56 wrote: »

The gap between Leinster and Munster is not (or next season at least, won't be) as great as you appear to be suggesting.

Sadly I think it is. They have more strength in depth and have a style that suits their play.

This season will be interesting,I look forward to see what style we play.

Rightwing

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I'd be fairly confident we'll do ok barring injury.

It;ll be like last year, down to the wire, 2 losses away to Glaws and away to Perp, can we pick up enough bonus points along the way.

.ak

Rightwing wrote: »

Do you even know who is in Leinster's group ?

Ospreys, complete losers
Castres, never give a hoot about it
Saints, good for 2 or 3 games and then fall apart.

Didn't you think Leinster's group was easy last season too?

Lelantos

thomond2006 wrote: »

Castres were excellent in the Top14 playoffs, I'd be very wary of them from a Leinster perspective.

Sorry, the Munster and Leinster groups aren't comparable IMO. Would you rather have Ospreys or Edinburgh, Gloucester or Northampton?

I'm not sure, but haven't Castres lost their coaching team & Saints their whole front row. That's got to really hurt both sides? Not getting into the whole, who's got the easier group, but that has to be a factor imo

.ak

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Sadly I think it is. They have more strength in depth and have a style that suits their play.

This season will be interesting,I look forward to see what style we play.

I think it'll narrow. The emergence of key players like Murray, Zebo, Ryan and POM are key. Leinster don't have any new international class talent apart from Madigan, and they'll be relying on him and some of the old guard to bring new talent through.

Honestly couldn't call it this early before the season has started.

Rightwing

.ak wrote: »

Didn't you think Leinster's group was easy last season too?

No, last year I said it was manageable, everyone else seemed to be quaking in their boots at the thought of Clermont. But once again, they faltered proving me correct.

Tox56

Lelantos wrote: »

I'm not sure, but haven't Castres lost their coaching team & Saints their whole front row. That's got to really hurt both sides? Not getting into the whole, who's got the easier group, but that has to be a factor imo

Saints have upgraded massively with Corbisiero and Hartley is still there. There's also the small matter of Fotali'i (sp?) and North coming in

Rightwing

Lelantos wrote: »

I'm not sure, but haven't Castres lost their coaching team & Saints their whole front row. That's got to really hurt both sides? Not getting into the whole, who's got the easier group, but that has to be a factor imo

Exactly, I never said one group was easier than the other, I said they are 2 easy groups, unlike Ulster's one.

.ak

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

But in fairness you don't support Leinster.

Let me put it this way. IF Leinster were in our group they would walk it. If we were in their group it would be tough going. But they are not and we are not so we can only compare the actual teams in their respective groups.

Yeah but take Munster and Leinster out of the equation. The poster stated they were both easy groups. Not both relatively easy groups considering who's in them.

I think it's an easier group for Leinster compared to last season, but there's no denying Munster got the best draw of any tier 1 team.

Buer

Rightwing wrote: »

No. Just No, They'd be out of business if that was their reasoning.

It obviously isn't their entire rationale and probability is one of the variables in the calculation but their level of exposure is also a vital component, heavily involved in the setting of the odds.

Micky Dolenz

.ak wrote: »

Yeah but take Munster and Leinster out of the equation. The poster stated they were both easy groups. Not both relatively easy groups considering who's in them.

I think it's an easier group for Leinster compared to last season, but there's no denying Munster got the best draw of any tier 1 team.

But taking teams out of groups they are already in is pointless.

Have Leinster a favourable group they should top, yes. The same applies to Munster.

Rightwing

Buer wrote: »

It obviously isn't their entire rationale and probability is one of the variables in the calculation but their level of exposure is also a vital component, heavily involved in the setting of the odds.

Interesting. What about Perpignan, they are 28/1 and no one could say they are a heavily backed team.

matthew8

Northampton are the joint strongest English team in the tournament. They were the last English team in the final, got to their domestic final and have acquired 3 players who are among the world's best in their position. 2 of Europe's finest teams went to visit the Ospreys last year and could not win. Castres are the wildcard team and it's hard to know what they bring, but as Champions of Europe's highest quality league, they can't be taken lightly. Compare that to a pool consisting of the laughing stock of last year's competition and 2 teams who failed to make domestic playoffs and it's a massive gap.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Do you even know who is in Leinster's group ?

Ospreys, complete losers
Castres, never give a hoot about it
Saints, good for 2 or 3 games and then fall apart.

Such absolute nonsense

First off those "complete losers" have a fantastic record against Leinster, In fact, they've made a business out of beating Leinster over their period of European dominance
Saints haven't been great in Europe over the last season or two but they're still a very strong side and have made some big signings in Corbs and North and will be a very hard side to beat over two legs

So, ya, not an easy group at all despite your "analysis of the above teams":rolleyes:

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

It;ll be like last year, down to the wire, 2 losses away to Glaws and away to Perp, can we pick up enough bonus points along the way.

Munster should be looking to top their group considering how relatively easy it is. It will be a bit of a disaster if we're relying on a best runners up spot again

molloyjh

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Such absolute nonsense

First off those "complete losers" have a fantastic record against Leinster, Castre arguably should have bet them last season so not sure how you can say they don't give a hoot

Saints haven't been great in Europe over the last season or two but they're still a very strong side and have made some big signings in Corbs and North and will be a very hard side to beat over two legs

So, ya, not an easy group at all despite your "analysis of the above teams":rolleyes:

Not to mention that those "complete losers" have won more trophies in the last 4 years than Munster have, plus in the last 2 season Munster have lost to Ospreys 3 times, drawn once and haven't won once. But sure leave him off...

Podge_irl

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

First off those "complete losers" have a fantastic record against Leinster, In fact, they've made a business out of beating Leinster over their period of European dominance

Don't want to overly get involved in this (particular as its the Munster thread), but one stat that WOC came up with that I thought was great was that only two teams beat Leinster more than twice in Joe's 3 years there - Clermont (3) and Ospreys (5).

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Podge_irl wrote: »

Don't want to overly get involved in this (particular as its the Munster thread), but one stat that WOC came up with that I thought was great was that only two teams beat Leinster more than twice in Joe's 3 years there - Clermont (3) and Ospreys (5).

"Complete losers" sure

Anyway, you're right, nothing to do with Munster but I just take exception to something being said with such grand proclamation that is just so painfully wrong

Rightwing

molloyjh wrote: »

Not to mention that those "complete losers" have won more trophies in the last 4 years than Munster have, plus in the last 2 season Munster have lost to Ospreys 3 times, drawn once and haven't won once. But sure leave him off...

When the ospreys prove they can make a semi final, I'll have another look at them. Some might think they are H cup potentials. I'm afraid they're not.

Edinburgh have proven an average team can make the semi's. Over to you Ospreys.

I suspect another massive failure on the way proving my point once more.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

When the ospreys prove they can make a semi final, I'll have another look at them. Some might think they are H cup potentials. I'm afraid they're not.

Edinburgh have proven an average team can make the semi's. Over to you Ospreys.

I suspect another massive failure on the way proving my point once more.

Sorry but you're making it sound as if people are saying Ospreys are genuine contenders to win the HC. They probably have a chance alright but that's not what people are saying

They're contesting you're weird notion that they're "complete losers" when in fact they're anything but considering their recent trophy haul and Leinster scalps and are part of what is a very hard group for Leinster

Also, if you expanded on your point rather than saying something as (frankly childish) "they're complete losers" you probably wouldn't get as much flak for it. Making such a state of the nation summation of one team like that and not actually trying to back it up is very annoying

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Sorry but you're making it sound as if people are saying Ospreys are genuine contenders to win the HC. They probably have a chance alright but that's not what people are saying

They're contesting you're weird notion that they're "complete losers" when in fact they're anything but considering their recent trophy haul and Leinster scalps and are part of what is a very hard group for Leinster

We're talking about H Cup.

We need to move a level beyond 'they are in leinster's group, they must be real good'. That's utter nonsense that no knowledgeable poster will believe.

Case closed.

thomond2006

Rightwing wrote: »

We're talking about H Cup.

We need to move a level beyond 'they are in leinster's group, they must be real good'. That's utter nonsense that no knowledgeable poster will believe.

Case closed.

I'm gonna assume this is a thinly veiled potshot at me.

When exactly did I say your quote? You did read my post on it before? I actually tried to justify my point, something which you (from my own POV) don't seem to do.

Case Closed indeed, sorry mate but I'm making a point to not respond to you.