Straight Infraction in You Laugh You Lose Thread

mygoat

I have received an infraction for posting a picture that contains nudity in the “You laugh you lose” thread.

I feel that a straight infraction was an unnecessarily harsh reaction, to a photo that in my view was just playful and artistic, certainly not pornographic (not even sexual) or in any way offensive. I was aware of the PG13 rating for the thread, and I had looked up the guidelines on the IFCO for 12A (as we don’t have PG13 in Ireland, I’d looked up the American guidelines as well, just to be sure), and in my judgment the photo was ok. Both guidelines allow for nudity in sexual context, so non sexual nudity shouldn’t even be disputed. Am I missing something?

Look, I grew up in a country were tasteful nudity is not considered offensive or viewed as something to protect your children from. Although I’ve been living in Ireland for a decade, I’m sure that my background influences my perception, and since I am not used to seeing female breasts as a source of offense (or as sexual, outside of a sexual context), the infraction feels bewildering to me. I would really like to understand, what line of thinking allows borderline pornographic images like this and this but delivers a straight infraction for this?

I am genuinely curious and confused about this.

I tried to discuss this with the moderator, but as I haven’t heard from him since I contacted him over 2 days ago, I decided to bring the issue here. This is the message I sent:

Hi DD9090,

I was very surprised to receive that infraction. I don't really wish to dispute whether the photo would or wouldn't pass the level of PG13. I gave it some thought and I decided that it was safe, you disagree with me and I'm ok with that. How do I deserve an infraction though? The photo itself is not objectively offensive, you will go to the beach or even to a church and you will see clearer nudity than you could see in that photo. I believe that there are photos in the thread that could be viewed as way more offensive, so it's a judgment call. Your judgment is different to mine, however you have the power to overrule my judgment, and that is fine with me too

But why the infraction? How come were you so harsh with me?

Kind regards,
mygoat

Would you look into this for me, please?

dr.bollocko

Hello mygoat. Have you got a response from the moderator in question yet?

mygoat

Hey dr.bollocko. No, haven't heard from him at all.

dr.bollocko

OK. Well from looking into it, I fear there is a bit of confusion here.

Now wrt post 1, the cartoon example, that's a separate discussion I'll have to have with the Cool vids mods. What is acceptable in a cartoon and what is not etc.

On post 2, to my mind that's well over the line. I've removed it because of this. So that's separate. With regard to the post you made, well it's definitely not work safe.

Now an infraction, in isolation does not really mean much. Trust me I have plenty and they're generally used to show the rules rather than slap the poster's wrist or anything like that.

The picture you posted would breach our charter as it is not work safe, I also don't think it's PG13 enough, hence the post snipped. Hope that clears this up for you.

mygoat

Thanks for your response dr.bollocko.

Gosh, I find this infraction so unfair.

You said that you don’t think that the image satisfies PG13. As I mentioned in my OP, we do not have a PG13 cert in Ireland, which country guidance are we following here, then? This is a serious question. I looked up the closest cert in Irish Classification Office, which is the 12A, and this is what it has to say about sexual content/nudity:

Sexual content (situations and dialogue) presented without explicit detail may be acceptable at 12A. Brief sexual nudity may also be acceptable.

If sexual content without explicit detail, and sexual nudity is allowed according to the guidelines, do you not think that “not explicit, non sexual nudity” satisfies the criteria? If not, why not?

As to your point that the image wasn’t safe for work and therefore in breach of the charter– I’m confused again. In the opening post it is clearly stated that NSFW images are allowed on that thread, so how am I in breach of the charter? By the way, how do you define what is and isn’t safe for work? If this can’t be clearly defined - it can’t be objectively evaluated. And if it can’t be objectively evaluated - it’s a matter of judgment and personal boundaries. Wouldn’t it be fair then, to give people the benefit of the doubt and warn them first, instead of severally punishing them for having different boundaries to yours?

What exactly is my offense that warrants an infraction?

An Infraction (or Red Card) adds 1 point to your infraction total. These are given out for serious offenses, such as insulting other users, and are usually accompanied by a forum-ban. (…) Infractions make keeping an eye on potentially troublesome users easier for our moderators.

I appreciate what you said that an infraction doesn’t really mean much, and trust me, if I deserved it, I’d accept it gracefully and with good humour. But I don’t feel like I am a serious offender and a potentially troublesome user. All I am guilty of is a misjudgment of what is and isn’t acceptable in the Irish culture. Where I come from, nobody would blink at this kind of an image, photos of artistic nudity can frequently be seen in work places on an open display, so trust me, this was an easy mistake for me to make. The lesson I’ve learnt here is that I need to look at images with an Irish hat on, and of course I will do that from now on. Mind you, it’s difficult to understand what is and isn’t acceptable, after seeing the images I gave as an example in my opening thread...

dr.bollocko

mygoat wrote: »

In the opening post it is clearly stated that NSFW images are allowed on that thread, so how am I in breach of the charter?

Before posting a photo please consider if it is safe for work

If not then just link to the image and put NSFW above it. This does not mean you can post porn, racist posts or anything of that sort which could cause offence.

If you are unsure if a pic is OK PM a mod first. Bans will be handed out liberally to any and all who break these rules.

These are the rules with relation to this type of posting. From checking, it appears you did not pm a mod beforehand, nor did you post a link to the image with NSFW above it, as opposed to a direct image post.

With that in mind, I think an infraction is reasonable.

mygoat

You haven’t addressed my questions, dr.bolloco. Isn’t the purpose of this process to discuss the issue?

If the image passes the rating of PG13 or its Irish equivalent of 12A, and I can prove to you with a 100% certainty that it does (by providing you with IFCO censor’s judgment on this very image), I had no reason to be in doubt, and I wasn’t.

Why is the image unsafe for work? If you had this image open on your screen, and someone passed by your desk, all they would see is a woman appearing to be in a t-shirt. You can only see that she is covered in paint if you look at her very closely. Again, this is not an objective issue, not even close. Please define for me “unsafe for work” so I know what is and isn’t appropriate. Can you do that?

Even if the image, in the moderator’s view, was unsafe for work (this is only a matter of opinion, as “unsafe for work” cannot be objectively defined), it appears that the only problem is a missing link. Why then the moderator removed the image instead of replacing it with a link? He clearly overreacted.

Would you explain to me how is not providing a link a “serious offence”, comparable to insulting other users, please? Again, it’s an overreaction. DD9090 got freaked out by the sight of a pair of boobies covered in paint, and he knows this. Otherwise he would have responded to my email explaining his decision or posted in this thread defending it. Instead, he lets others do the dirty work for him – bad form.

dr.bollocko

Hello,

I believe I have already adequately covered the questions you have raised based on the rules you cited yourself but misunderstood. I am happy that the infraction stands without getting into a larger discussion which has little to do with the issue.

Please feel free to appeal to an admin.

mygoat

You haven’t addressed my questions at all, dr.bollocko. Which rule, deserving of a straight infraction, have I broken? I am yet to receive an answer that makes sense.



1. First you said that you didn’t think that the photo would pass the PG13 cert – but it does.
2. Then you said that the image was not safe for work – that in itself is not an offense on that thread, which you confirmed.
3. Then you said that I haven’t linked to the image, which was allowed but was unsafe for work.



What have I received an infraction for? I’d like an admin’s decision on this, please.

mygoat

OK, I have finally received a response from DD9090. I'd like the admin to look over it before making the final decision, please.

mygoat wrote:

Really? What are you 12? I'm not a dude, because I'm a female, you don't generally refer to women as "dude". No wonder you got freaked out by a pair of breasts covered in paint.

I have read all the charters, and nowhere have I seen "No nudity, EVER!". That's why I asked for a link.

DD9090 wrote:

wow, who pissed on your cornflakes?

It is your responsibility to read each forums charter before posting in any forum. The charter can be found near the top of each forum as it will be a sticky thread.



Forum Charter

Please have a read before posting again.

Have a nice day,

DD9090

mygoat wrote:

I'm not a dude.

Where in the charter does it say "No nudity, EVER!"? Can I have a link please?

mygoat

DD9090 wrote:

Hi dude,

The charter is very clear, no nudity EVER!

Infraction stands.

DD9090

mygoat wrote:

Hi DD9090,

I was very surprised to receive that infraction. I don't really wish to dispute whether the photo would or wouldn't pass the level of PG13. I gave it some thought and I decided that it was safe, you disagree with me and I'm ok with that. How do I deserve an infraction though? The photo itself is not objectively offensive, you will go to the beach or even to a church and you will see clearer nudity than you could see in that photo. I believe that there are photos in the thread that could be viewed as way more offensive, so it's a judgment call. Your judgement is different to mine, however you have the power to overrule my judgement, and that is fine with too

But why the infraction? How come were you so harsh with me?

Kind regards,
mygoat

DD9090 wrote:

Dear mygoat,

You have been infracted for a breach of the forum charter.

Every forum on Boards.ie has a charter which lists any specific rules that forum may have and it is really important that you read this as it'll help you familiarise yourself with how that forum works. You should also understand that every forum is different and that charters are how you learn the differences.

Please see the Boards.ie FAQ for more details.

If you wish to appeal this infraction you can see details on how to do so here.

DD9090

Moderator Note

You may not post nudity here.

Your post:

mygoat wrote: »

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u218/_Katharina_/tatoo_grassmower.jpg



http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u218/_Katharina_/tatoo_monkeys.jpg



<<<snip>>>

mygoat

And another gem from DD9090. Apparently, I would have gotten a different treatment had he known I'm a female.

mygoat wrote:

You will let me away with that because you're in a good mood? And you suggest that I change my user name to be more identifiable as a female? Now I really do think you are 12...

I haven't taken any offense over you calling me "dude", all I did was inform you that I am not one.

I have started a thread in the Dispute Resolution forum, feel free to read and contribute to it, though it is now at admin level.

DD9090 wrote:

Okay, I'll let you away with that because I'm in a good mood today.

I can't tell from your username what sex you are so taking offence here is a problem you will have look at from your end. I suggest you change your username to something more identifiable to your gender.

Now, the part I was referring to is below. The picture was in fact in breach of the PG13 rating.

The Forum Charter wrote:

This is a public forum, many people view it from work, please bear this in mind before posting something, it doesn't matter how funny it is if it breaches the PG13 rating it will be removed and banning may follow

I hope this satisfies your issue.

Take care,

DD9090

dr.bollocko

mygoat i now feel misled here.


You informed me you did not get any replies for your PMs from the moderator in question so I took this up with you. Now you're telling me this is not the case and we have quite a mess on our hands.

So let's start again.

Speak to the moderator first. See if you can resolve this via PM with them.

If you're unhappy with his response then get back to the dispute resolution procedure.

mygoat

No, no, dr.bollocko, I haven't mislead you. I have received the first response from DD9090 this afternoon, after I sent my reply at 14:54 and before my reply at 15:29. The correspondence I posted here took place after you said I may appeal the decision to an admin, so the process here pretty much reached conclusion. I can provide you with screenshots of the PMs to prove it, if you wish.

As you can see, I can't have a reasonable conversation with DD9090. I'd like an admins decision on this, please.

dr.bollocko

OK mygoat.

I understand now having spoken to DD9090.

I am not going to indulge you in your misrepresentation of DD9090's sentiments via PM.

They are completely unfair to him and don't deserve the benefit of discussion.

At this point i have spoken with DD9090, a fuller picture has emerged. I stick by my original decision that the infraction is warranted and stands and will now happily hand this over to the admins for a final decision.

Good day.

mygoat

My misrepresentation of DD9090? What am I being accused of here? I posted the correspondence exactly as it happened. What is going on here???

Dades

Lets just sort this out now.

mygoat, I agree with dr.bollocko when he says he has addressed your points. Instead I feel you are trying to make a bigger cultural issue of this to hide the simple fact that you posted a picture of a pair of naked breasts without a NSFW label in the post. And no, it doesn't just look like a lady in a t-shirt at a glance - it looks like bare breasts with paint on them.

This isn't a cultural thing - it's a work thing. Irish people have breasts too, but Irish employers don't want to see them on their employees monitors. That way legal issues lie.

The charter clearly points to rules regarding NSFW stuff here. And the first post in the thread reiterates this as follows:

Penn wrote: »

Before posting a photo please consider if it is safe for work

If not then just link to the image and put NSFW above it. This does not mean you can post porn, racist posts or anything of that sort which could cause offence.

If you are unsure if a pic is OK PM a mod first. Bans will be handed out liberally to any and all who break these rules.

Note the last line here. You have not been banned, you have only been given a card for posting something you should have been aware was NSFW. You aren't the first to make the mistake, and you won't be the last, but the rules are in place to minimise the numbers that do.

Decision upheld.