Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/2014

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

Then in Dalglish's only summer there was an entirely different approach taken by the owners with a DOF, money available etc.

Only 2 summers are relevant.

that, quite probably, had a significant effect on the road we're going down now.

that summer is of course relevant; as it is part of the context of what's happening now.

Knex*

Morzadec wrote: »

I was thinking this the other night...

We only have to look at Jelavic and Papiss Cisse to be reminded that 5 months in the PL is not enough to know for sure.

Coutinho looks to have it all and I do believe he will become a star eventually.

I also think that Sturridge looks very good technically, very fast, great shot, and has far more brains about him than I expected.

So I think both will have good season, but it's right to be wary.

I also worry about how much of our squad 'clicking' and getting things right under Rodgers was the fact that the latter part of our season we were partaking in largely meaningless games.

I do definitely think we progressed as the season went on and became more established in terms of concepts and understanding etc, but I also wonder how much needs to be tempered because of the above.

Only time will tell.

Also, I suppose the likes of Aspas and Alberto this season will let us know how our new scouting department is doing.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Luis Suarez
Javier Mascherano
Fernando Torres

Andy Carroll
Antonio Nunez

The point is that most of us don't know enough about some of our new signings to make a judgement about them.

I am pie

Mr Alan wrote: »

No, I mean second.

4 summers ago, G&H were still lingering around.
Then in Dalglish's only summer there was an entirely different approach taken by the owners with a DOF, money available etc.

What we're talking about is FSG's latest greatest plan to get us back to the top table & the man they've entrusted to do it. Only 2 summers are relevant.

Oh please do try and be the slightest bit less biased. Are you trying to tell us the Carroll fiasco and the Aquilani fiasco where good bits of business.

You can't just turn round like a child on the playground and say you don't want to talk about what went before! It's ridiculous.

Knex*

whatawaster wrote: »

Antonio Nunez

One of the most apathetic, useless, players I have ever seen in a Liverpool shirt.

Was playing alongside Pacheco at Huesca last season incidentally.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

Price of a player or demand for a player is unquestionably the best metric when it comes to judging a player's ability. There will always be exceptions obviously, but as a general rule, good players cost good money and are wanted by good clubs.

Broadly speaking, yes. You'd expect a 20 million signing to have more impact than a 2 million signing. But it's far from always the case.

Talking of transfer windows - our scouting team has only had one window so far and it has been successful so far.

They got it right in the mid-range market twice with Coutinho and Sturridge, both of whom most of us were skeptical about. They deserve the benefit of the doubt with Aspas and Alberto.

In any event, I'd be amazed if either would be intended to be first choice next season. As it stands Coutinho, Sturridge and Suarez are our front 3.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

The point is that most of us don't know enough about some of our new signings to make a judgement about them.

You can't continue to exist in this sphere. I can see why people like the train of thought:

- can't judge any player until you've seen him play (particularly if they're young) so no signing is ever a bad signing at the time;
- can't judge those young players even after you've seen them play for a while anyway because, you know, they're only young;
- can't question the logic behind the moves or the scouting because, you know, you haven't seen them play;

etc, etc.

Sometimes too much knowledge prevents a man from seeing the wood from the trees. I'll post it again:

Mignolet
Toure
Aspas
Alberto
Sturridge
Coutinho
Assaidi
Allen
Borini

It's not good enough. We weren't as good as our opponents last season, and the above amounts to us not matching their transfer activity so how can we say we're closing the gap? And that's not getting down on Aspas / Alberto because the details of their individual moves don't matter. Look at the overall since the end of the 2011 / 12 season, just look at it!!

Morzadec

Knex. wrote: »

I also worry about how much of our squad 'clicking' and getting things right under Rodgers was the fact that the latter part of our season we were partaking in largely meaningless games.

I do definitely think we progressed as the season went on and became more established in terms of concepts and understanding etc, but I also wonder how much needs to be tempered because of the above.

Only time will tell.

Also, I suppose the likes of Aspas and Alberto this season will let us know how our new scouting department is doing.

I have a feeling that next year our problems will be similar to the last 2 seasons - failing to break down teams that are happy playing for a draw.

Or more specifically, being wasteful and having a chance conversion % right down there with the worst in the league. At first I thought it was just bad luck, but the frequency it happens (and often the inevitability of it happening) suggests we're just not quite good enough in the final third.

If we could even get this % up to 7th or 8th best in the league we would see a massive points improvement, as we match or better some of the best teams in the other metrics.

Knex. wrote: »

One of the most apathetic, useless, players I have ever seen in a Liverpool shirt.

Was playing alongside Pacheco at Huesca last season incidentally.

Worst player I've seen play for Liverpool I think.

Someone like Traore gets a lot of stick, but he did his best with limited abilities.

Nunez, like you said, was totally apathetic. Awful.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- can't judge any player until you've seen him play (particularly if they're young) so no signing is ever a bad signing at the time;

I really don't know how anyone can judge a player having not seen them play.

joe123

If you compare Spurs signings with ours, you would have to see that their signings show much more intent in building on their first 11.

Paulinho and most likely Soldado. Two quality signings that would go straight into their starting 11. Chadli looks a decent player but I would have him more on the level of an aspas signing.

Liverpool have yet to sign anyone that would demand a first team place. Would absolutely love to see us jump in for Soldado. At the end of the day, Spurs and Liverpool are both without champions league so their should be no reason we cannot compete against them.

I still think we badly need to bring in another DM as cover/competition for lucas.

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

that, quite probably, had a significant effect on the road we're going down now.

that summer is of course relevant; as it is part of the context of what's happening now.

As in it highlights their own failings?
Or highlight that they've no clue what they're doing?

Let's remember these things;

Damien Comolli was their idea. They thought he was the business. Then our transfer dealings were poor. Kenny Dalglish was their idea, had their full support, they waxed lyrical about him. Transfer dealings were poor. Team didn't improve enough in the league. What seems to be getting missed here is that they appointed both men. The failings are ultimately theirs.

That is not an excuse for them to scrimp on signings for the club going forward, simply because they're afraid of getting burnt?!!??!?!

I can't genuinely believe "football fans" are using that as a defence of not spending money at the club?! Are you a fan of the club or FSG's bank manager???!?!

At least under Comolli & Dalglish their was ambition being shown. Now there is not. And looking at the club now, it's hard to see anything other than a club content to sit in midtable until FSG can sort out a sale.

gafferino

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm predicting the most likely outcome.

Simply answer this, if we finish the window with only a couple more players around the level of Aspas & Alberto....will you then admit that the window has been a very poor one if we're hoping to mount a credible challenge for CL football? Or you will say, "ah well, you never know!"

Definitely. If all we see is signings under 10m than this is not good enough to get us 4th. I would say - on what I have seen so far (limited in fairness) that Aspas and Alberto are different signings. Alberto looks like one for the future and Aspas will be ready to go and has looked decent so far.

I dont think this is the plan though (buying cheap players) - we were heavily in for MickeyRyan at around 25m so they are willing to spend the money if they can get the player. Rodgers has already stated that following the acquisitions early in the summer he has strengthened the squad and would like to now strengthen the starting team.

Keeping Suarez and buying 1 more starter would be acceptable to me - not amazing but definitely acceptable given the world class qualities of Luis. We need more than 1 but it would be acceptable but 2 starters on top of Luis would be a successful window.

If we lose Suarez than it is a minimum of 2 but really 3-4 would be needed. This is however going to prove very difficult in the time frame left which is why we need Suarez clarity very quickly. Even in terms of signing players:
"Hi Goaldado, would you like to come and partner Suarez?".
"Yes please Mr. Ayre".

or
"Hi Goaldado would you like to come and partner Aspas and Sturridge?"
"emmm no gracias.....do you have Mr. Levys phone number please".

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

I really don't know how anyone can judge a player having not seen them play.

If we signed the dude who captained Bradford last season for £100k would you need to have watched him play to know he wasn't going to improve our starting 11?

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If we signed the dude who captained Bradford last season for £100k would you need to have watched him play to know he wasn't going to improve our starting 11?

We haven't signed anyone of that ilk. Extreme example is pointless.

Assaidi had a good record in Holland.
Aspas had a good season in Spain.
Alberto is young and had a great season in the second division in Spain.

Hardly league one journeymen.

Chucky the tree

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If we signed the dude who captained Bradford last season for £100k would you need to have watched him play to know he wasn't going to improve our starting 11?

Instead we need to spend £17m on premiership proven lads like downing.

Morzadec

I think there is a key difference between judging the player and judging the signing.

That's what's being talked about here.

People are going to have opinions on signings regardless of whether they have seen them play much as you can infer likely outcomes from player history/stats/reputation/ and yes, even the fee paid. They're not neccessarily writing off the player, but they are saying the signings lack ambition and don't give a lot of hope.

I don't have any problem with the signings we've made so far and fees we've paid for them, but I pretty much see all of them as squad fillers or like for like replacements for first teamers who have left.

I would share the opinion that we have not really improved our first XI much and that we definitely need at least 1 signing (attacking centre-mid) that is a significant step-up on what we will be putting out against Stoke if things stay the way they are.

I think it's a totally valid opinion to say that the signings this window aren't good enough, even if you haven't seen them play, if they are the only ones we end up with at the end of the summer.

I am pie

Are people surprised that we aren't doing much business while the club is on tour?

Really?

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

We haven't signed anyone of that ilk. Extreme example is pointless.

Assaidi had a good record in Holland.
Aspas had a good season in Spain.
Alberto is young and had a great season in the second division in Spain.

Hardly league one journeymen.

Good record in Holland yet available with seemingly no competition
Good season in Spain but locked up nice and early with seemingly no competition and only one season at the top level to his name
Great season in the Spanish Second Division but only 7 appearances at the top level to date in his career

League One journeymen? No. But certainly not top shelf talent.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Good record in Holland yet available with seemingly no competition
Good season in Spain but locked up nice and early with seemingly no competition and only one season at the top level to his name
Great season in the Spanish Second Division but only 7 appearances at the top level to date in his career

League One journeymen? No. But certainly not top shelf talent.

Ajax had Assaidi close to wrapped up before we came in late

Spurs and other clubs were reportedly interested in Aspas. We're merely speculating though.

Alberto is only 20. At his age Pedro had 2 appearances for Barcelona.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

That is not an excuse for them to scrimp on signings for the club going forward, simply because they're afraid of getting burnt?!!??!?!

I can't genuinely believe "football fans" are using that as a defence of not spending money at the club?! Are you a fan of the club or FSG's bank manager???!?!

i'm not excusing them.

i'm giving a reason for what they're doing. it's a part of the context. a context you said was irrelevant. it's not, because obviously, during Dalglish's tenure, they flung money at certain players, so their mindset was to spend lots at one stage.

FFS, i just fúcking said on this page that we need 2/3 signings for our starting XI, i'm not excusing them.

NukaCola

I am pie wrote: »

Are people surprised that we aren't doing much business while the club is on tour?

Really?

What difference does that make?

tok9

I think the point Lloyd and Alan are making is fair anyway.

While I'm happy we've added to the squad, we definitely have not signed players who will walk into the 1st XI.

Now I'm not saying the likes of Alberto and Aspas won't have an impact but there are different expectations that they have been signed to improve the depth.

So yes, I'd be disappointed if we don't sign anyone of that ilk before the window closes.

8-10

Morzadec wrote: »

Worst player I've seen play for Liverpool I think.

Someone like Traore gets a lot of stick, but he did his best with limited abilities.

Nunez, like you said, was totally apathetic. Awful.

All I remember about Nunez was his nod to his summers spent as a foreign exchange student in Dublin.

Apparently when in his first language class at Liverpool the lads were asked what English they know already. Antonio shot his hand up and said "Tesco carpark, Ballybrack"

Anyone

NukaCola wrote: »

What difference does that make?

The people who do the business aren't in the same continent to do so.
We signed 4 players fairly quick before the tour.

I'd expect the Suarez thing needs to be sorted before any major purchases will be made as well.

joe123

Anyone wrote: »

The people who do the business aren't in the same continent to do so.
We signed 4 players fairly quick before the tour.

I'd expect the Suarez thing needs to be sorted before any major purchases will be made as well.

Well we were willing to spend 20-25 million on mick so there must be money available.

Gbear

joe123 wrote: »

Well we were willing to spend 20-25 million on mick so there must be money available.

Well we don't actually know that for certain. Until we actually spend the money it's hard to know how much is actually available.

For all we know, Mick was dependent on selling Suarez.

Judging our buys is something that can't be done until they've happened or the window is closed.

YouTookMyName

whatawaster wrote: »

Andy Carroll
Antonio Nunez

The point is that most of us don't know enough about some of our new signings to make a judgement about them.

Xabi Alonso
Jean-Michel Ferri

gafferino

I am pie wrote: »

Are people surprised that we aren't doing much business while the club is on tour?

Really?

Im not sure of your point but i dont think being on tour stops teams buying players - it is not just done by 1-2 people. If there is a realistic chance of getting a target (which I think clubs will know if its realistic or not) then Ayre or whoever can come back from the tour as he said himself only a few days ago.

K-9

Mr Alan wrote: »

If he's been convinced to stay, Rodgers of course deserves credit, don't think anyone will argue with that.

The player wanting to stay is the best outcome for me, though I'll await a more reliable source, going to Arsenal makes no sense as regards his quoted comments and if Real aren't willing to put up the £50 Million + that's great. Interesting in comparison to Reina though!

As I've alluded to numerous times, people who hold similar opinions as me seem to be fairly steadfast & consistant in those opinions, it's the ones who like trying to shout us down that are changing their opinions ad nauseum to suit the spin they want.

Holding the same opinion all the time doesn't necessarily make it right.

As an example I'd be amazed if anybody thought we'd realistically have 2 top level goalkeepers, back in May. To keep Reina and Mignolet I'd have thought we must have had some transfer window, sorted out every position and spent £100 Million or so.

I'd have kept Reina myself as I think his improvement in form for the last half of the season was enough for such a great servant of the club, but I can see the logic in what the club has done. I don't really see what those who wanted him sold are moaning about, his service to the club either matters or doesn't.

Re: Suarez's potential pay-rise. No issue with it whatsoever, he is the best player at the club by a considerable distance, his pay should reflect that.

Yep, he was only on about £40k when he joined.

K-9

So we are all in agreement we need more 1st team signings but still carry on arguing about it.

Dickerty

YouTookMyName wrote: »

Jean-Michel Ferri

The original mole!

Dickerty

K-9 wrote: »

So we are all in agreement we need more 1st team signings but still carry on arguing about it.

Sounds about right. We are still not agreed who will get the credit/blame depending on how well said players perform...

Daemonic

K-9 wrote: »

So we are all in agreement we need more 1st team signings but still carry on arguing about it.

Well it's keep arguing or do some actual work :pac:

K-9

SlickRic wrote: »

that, quite probably, had a significant effect on the road we're going down now.

that summer is of course relevant; as it is part of the context of what's happening now.

Spending £35 Million cash on Carroll and getting less than half back obviously has a bearing on the same ownership, I can't see how Al can argue otherwise. We've overpaid for a few players as well and while not quite as bad as the dross at the end of Benitez and Hodgson management, we still over paid for a good few players.

Yep, a 60% success rate in signing players is above average, we seem to be above average in over paying for players, though January and this window so far seem encouraging on that front.

Dickerty

Daemonic wrote: »

Well it's keep arguing or do some actual work :pac:

God did NOT invent transfer windows so that we could spend the time working......

NukaCola

Dickerty wrote: »

God did NOT invent transfer windows so that we could spend the time working......

What has Robbie Fowler got to do with transfer windows?

Dickerty

NukaCola wrote: »

What has Robbie Fowler got to do with transfer windows?

I meant the fella upstairs that THINKS he's God...

El Inho

Sad to read reinas letter. But still understand why he's been loaned...

He deserved it to be handled better if that's what actually happened.

LuckyLloyd

K-9 wrote: »

Spending £35 Million cash on Carroll and getting less than half back obviously has a bearing on the same ownership, I can't see how Al can argue otherwise. We've overpaid for a few players as well and while not quite as bad as the dross at the end of Benitez and Hodgson management, we still over paid for a good few players.

Yep, a 60% success rate in signing players is above average, we seem to be above average in over paying for players, though January and this window so far seem encouraging on that front.

But it's bad thinking to say 'well we tried that once, so let's never do it again'. The attitude / idea was the right attitude / idea, the execution was piss poor. You identify how to improve upon the execution process and you go back to work.

If they sanctioned a big investment during 2011 they obviously did so because they believed the squad required it. When it failed the squad would therefore still have required it!! To then change tack and say 'okay, small money moves for players with resale only' ultimately means 'we've stopped trying to compete for now'.

And people can talk about moneyball, means and patience and that's fine if they're willing to settle in for a half decade more at least outside of the CL. Some people have indeed expressed that very opinion on here over the past week.

But other people are backing the post 2011 approach in the market and at the same time hoping we increase points haul in the league towards the 70 mark. Like, I'm obviously no Rodgers fan but I'd have to say that he hasn't got the full backing from FSG that he requires - accepting that some of Rodger's targets have performed poorly thus far.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But it's bad thinking to say 'well we tried that once, so let's never do it again'. The attitude / idea was the right attitude / idea, the execution was piss poor. You identify how to improve upon the execution process and you go back to work.

If they sanctioned a big investment during 2011 they obviously did so because they believed the squad required it. When it failed the squad would therefore still have required it!! To then change tack and say 'okay, small money moves for players with resale only' ultimately means 'we've stopped trying to compete for now'.

And people can talk about moneyball, means and patience and that's fine if they're willing to settle in for a half decade more at least outside of the CL. Some people have indeed expressed that very opinion on here over the past week.

But other people are backing the post 2011 approach in the market and at the same time hoping we increase points haul in the league towards the 70 mark. Like, I'm obviously no Rodgers fan but I'd have to say that he hasn't got the full backing from FSG that he requires - accepting that some of Rodger's targets have performed poorly thus far.

Having a 25 million offer for Mkhytaryan accepted doesn't suggest to me we aren't trying to compete

Vicxas

Did anyone see that Christian Benitez was found dead? Jesus christ.

Colemania

Totally unrelated news but sad to hear about ex Birmingham player Christian Benitez dying suddenly aged only 27. He had only recently joined a new club in Qatar and wasn't reporting any health problems.

NukaCola

whatawaster wrote: »

Having a 25 million offer for Mkhytaryan accepted doesn't suggest to me we aren't trying to compete

Its been very quiet since......:(

Pedalstool

I was expecting a serious poo storm in here on the back of Reina's letter. Amazed that everyone has seen right through it.

Disappointed Reina felt the need to write a letter criticising the club. I thought he was better than that. As has been said, he'd have dropped us like a hot snot if Barca came calling. The club acted in its own best interests. Any talk of staying to fight for his place is nonsense. He should know that with the wages he's on.

Speak Now

Vicxas wrote: »

Did anyone see that Christian Benitez was found dead? Jesus christ.

Car crash?

I am pie

gafferino wrote: »

Im not sure of your point but i dont think being on tour stops teams buying players - it is not just done by 1-2 people. If there is a realistic chance of getting a target (which I think clubs will know if its realistic or not) then Ayre or whoever can come back from the tour as he said himself only a few days ago.

It should be fairly evident really.

Ayre is central to negotiation, the Mihktaryan carry on took place before Liverpool left for Asia. With Ayre and Rodgers in Asia they are in a different time zone to the people they need to be negotiating with. I am pretty confident they have identified targets and will move to negotiate when they return. It really does focus around the availability of a core group of individuals to close these deals out, there is a committee for identifying and approving targets, but Ayre and Rodgers absolutely need to be active in meeting players and representatives to close these out.

Anecdotally, Man U and Arsenal both in Asia, both keen to be active in the market, neither of which have closed a signing. I don't know how many of you are involved in significant business transactions, but very little happens without sitting down face to face. Players will be buying into the manager's pitch, his personality and him buttering up the player telling him how he will be a vital part of the team etc.

This is not going to happen while we are in Asia.

SlickRic

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And people can talk about moneyball, means and patience and that's fine if they're willing to settle in for a half decade more at least outside of the CL. Some people have indeed expressed that very opinion on here over the past week.

But other people are backing the post 2011 approach in the market and at the same time hoping we increase points haul in the league towards the 70 mark. Like, I'm obviously no Rodgers fan but I'd have to say that he hasn't got the full backing from FSG that he requires - accepting that some of Rodger's targets have performed poorly thus far.

i have to say to you Lloyd, fair fúcks, this just about covers it.

people can't have it both ways. we need to invest in the playing squad. buying potential is all well and good, but if that's all we're doing, we need a lot of stuff to click if we're ever going to get to where we want to be.

that's why these 2 or 3 signings by the end of the window are so important.

now there are some who would probably be happy to wait half a decade for success. that's fine. they're more than welcome to hope for young players to kick on and bring us to where we want to be in a number of years. unfortunately, these same people will have to realise that our star turns will probably leave out of impatience for success, and so we could end up in an endless cycle. that's the key thing that some people do need to understand.

we can do both. we can sign these young prospects, while also getting some safer bets. not the biggest players on the market, because we're not in the CL, so we can't feast on that very top table. but the likes of Soldado for instance? definitely.

your summation of your opinion of Rodgers is good too. while I'm a bit more hopeful of Rodgers ultimately succeeding, I do agree that it seems he's not been backed like he could've been. our ire on the transfer front, if there is any, should be towards the owners more than the manager; even though the manager will ultimately take his share of the flak if we don't get the signings we crave by September.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But it's bad thinking to say 'well we tried that once, so let's never do it again'. The attitude / idea was the right attitude / idea, the execution was piss poor. You identify how to improve upon the execution process and you go back to work.

If they sanctioned a big investment during 2011 they obviously did so because they believed the squad required it. When it failed the squad would therefore still have required it!! To then change tack and say 'okay, small money moves for players with resale only' ultimately means 'we've stopped trying to compete for now'.

That's all well and good if you've a bottomless pit of money, seeing as we don't have Sheikh owners it's a rather unrealistic view of football and I can see it is an incredibly frustrating view for you personally!

The reality is the owners had to put up a big loan to the club last year for cash flow reasons, how anybody would expect the club to spend say £120 Million over the last year just makes no sense. We spent £50-60 Million as it is with only Carroll money in.

And people can talk about moneyball, means and patience and that's fine if they're willing to settle in for a half decade more at least outside of the CL. Some people have indeed expressed that very opinion on here over the past week.

If we don't sign a first choice CB and either a DM or AM, I can't see how realistically we can even seriously contend for 4th and I'd be wondering what the owners want to do with the club. As we've over a month left and nobody knows about Suarez, I wont get too excited or negative about it yet.

But other people are backing the post 2011 approach in the market and at the same time hoping we increase points haul in the league towards the 70 mark. Like, I'm obviously no Rodgers fan but I'd have to say that he hasn't got the full backing from FSG that he requires - accepting that some of Rodger's targets have performed poorly thus far.

Barring Dempsey I don't really see how he hasn't got full backing. The Mk thing maybe but we don't know the full details, just some twitter speculation. In an ideal world we'd have kept Reina too, but we've 3/4 areas of the pitch to improve first for me.

gafferino

Daemonic wrote: »

Well it's keep arguing or do some actual work :pac:

Yeah seriously.....if my work actually know about this forum I would be sacked.

Carry on.

Pedalstool

There is an awful lot of time and effort debating the need for 2 or 3 more signings and the ramifications for everyone if we don't. There is over a month left in the window, would it not be prudent to see how it develops first?

The larger money deals often become a game of brinksmanship.