Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/2014

opr

Hidalgo wrote: »

If its ok for Ajax to be a stepping stone, then why isn't it ok for Liverpool?
Both are.

We've the ninth highest revenues in world football. We're one the biggest supported clubs globally as evidence by the latest trips to in pre-season. We have one of the biggest histories in world football. We're not that far removed in relative terms (Few years) for competing at the very top level and top prizes in world football. We don't have a fan base that is used to the idea of being used as a stepping stone. It has happened in recent year but it's all relatively new.

I also think it's a hugely dangerous road to go down as you turn the club into a business rather than something which exists to build and win things. If we are going to market ourselves as stepping stone club then due to the competitive nature of the premiership we are never going to be able to build a team to challenge for top prizes again.

Opr

cson

mike65 wrote: »

Christ on a bike! Don't people read anything any more - I noted the clubs they went to were better positioned than LFC, but that they were not better players. Hell Torres won two European gongs by accident essentially.

I don't know what them being better players has to do with anything; and in any case I'd argue that Alonso upped it another level at Real Madrid.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

JimsAlterEgo

Clauses in a contract may not be binding if they haven't been entered into with due faith on both sides. An example of this is if Suarez thought that the clause was a buyout clause but Liverpool put in the clause as being reported. This could be dragged thru the courts yet.

Torres, Alonso and Mash have done alright for themselves!

opr

Dickerty wrote: »

Torres left us in a very difficult position so late in the window, that is a big part of the animosity - and he went to CHELSEA!
I don't think people feel that bad about Masc. He wanted to go to Barca, we agreed to let him go if he stayed another year, which he did. Low noise, low fuss.

Torres had been asking out for a year previous to his move? We as a club had kept telling him we needed him to stay for various reasons until eventually he blew up and moved to Chelsea. Masch refused to play for us at one stage. The fans eventually softened on the stance towards him but at the time huge amounts of bile were directed his way.

Low noise, low fuss - You live in cloud cookoo land if that is how you remember Masch leaving.

Opr

LuckyLloyd

mike65 wrote: »

The best news about this is that Liverpool have never sold a player who went on to better things, you might riposte with Alonso or Masch but all they did was go to bigger clubs who were better positioned, they didn't get any bigger or better than they already were.

Indeed most of the big names sold have had pretty mediocre careers thereafter. Hopefully this trend continues.

That's some awful bitter ****e right there.

Hidalgo

opr wrote: »

We've the ninth highest revenues in world football. We're one the biggest supported clubs globally as evidence by the latest trips to in pre-season. We have one of the biggest histories in world football. We're not that far removed in relative terms (Few years) for competing at the very top level and top prizes in world football. We don't have a fan base that is used to the idea of being used as a stepping stone. It has happened in recent year but it's all relatively new.

I also think it's a hugely dangerous road to go down as you turn the club into a business rather than something which exists to build and win things. If we are going to market ourselves as stepping stone club then due to the competitive nature of the premiership we are never going to be able to build a team to challenge for top prizes again.

Opr

Do you think club revenue matters to Suarez, do you think massive crowds matter to him, do you think history matters (ajax's history ain't bad).

All players want is plenty money and a chance to play at the highest level and win trophies, all Liverpool can offer are wages.
Liverpool are a stepping stone to clubs better than them. That's just the way it is, you won't see first teamers coming from Madrid, Chelsea, Barca to Liverpool in the way that Mascherano, Alsonso and now Suarez are going the other direction.

If Couthinho follows on from his impressive start, he'll be the next one. All that points to stepping stone to me, whether fans jump up and down, burn jersies etc.

I'm not saying the club are openly marketing themselves as a stepping stone, but Liverpool are a stepping stone.

tok9

mike65 wrote: »

Fernando Torres £50,000,000 31 January 2011
Xabi Alonso £30,000,000 5 August 2009
Javier Mascherano £17,250,000 30 August 2010
Robbie Keane £16,000,000 * 2 February 2009
Andy Carroll £15,000,000 19 June 2013
Robbie Fowler £12,000,000 29 November 2001
Raul Meireles £12,000,000 31 August 2011
Peter Crouch £11,000,000 * 11 July 2008
Michael Owen £8,500,000 * 14 August 2004
Momo Sissoko £8,200,000 28 January 2008
Craig Bellamy £7,500,000 10 July 2007
Stan Collymore £7,000,000 13 May 1997
Alberto Aquilani £7,000,000 3 August 2012
Milan Baros £6,500,000 23 August 2005
Emile Heskey £6,250,000 * 18 May 2004

I don't think it matters if they become better players or not. The main reason the majority left was to win silverware which a lot have.

You could argue that Alonso, Masc, Meireles, Torres even Crouch have all done better since leaving Liverpool.

GavRedKing

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

Vanolder

mike65 wrote: »

The best news about this is that Liverpool have never sold a player who went on to better things, you might riposte with Alonso or Masch but all they did was go to bigger clubs who were better positioned, they didn't get any bigger or better than they already were.

Indeed most of the big names sold have had pretty mediocre careers thereafter. Hopefully this trend continues.

:rolleyes:

cson

tok9 wrote: »

You could argue that Alonso, Masc, Meireles, Torres even Crouch have won more since leaving Liverpool.

You were doing so well... :pac:

tok9

cson wrote: »

You were doing so well... :pac:

Ha.. am I right in saying he won the FA cup? Although I admit his reason for leaving wasn't exactly due to looking for silverware :P

Hidalgo

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Clauses in a contract may not be binding if they haven't been entered into with due faith on both sides. An example of this is if Suarez thought that the clause was a buyout clause but Liverpool put in the clause as being reported. This could be dragged thru the courts yet.

If the contract has been signed by both sides I imagine its binding. It could well go to court, but arguing a 'we didn't understand the clauses' line won't go far.
One side is telling fibs or has made a f*ck up when the contract was signed.

Gbear

rarnes1 wrote: »

Selling to Arsenal for £50m would be a serious mistake.

It would ultimately cost Rodgers his job imo because top 4 won't be happening.

Top 4 won't be happening anyway tbh.

Even with Suarez and, for example, Eriksen and another CB, we'd still be massive underdogs.

opr

Hidalgo wrote: »

Do you think club revenue matters to Suarez, do you think massive crowds matter to him, do you think history matters (ajax's history ain't bad).

All players want is plenty money and a chance to play at the highest level and win trophies, all Liverpool can offer are wages.
Liverpool are a stepping stone to clubs better than them. That's just the way it is, you won't see first teamers coming from Madrid, Chelsea, Barca to Liverpool in the way that Mascherano, Alsonso and now Suarez are going the other direction.

If Couthinho follows on from his impressive start, he'll be the next one. All that points to stepping stone to me, whether fans jump up and down, burn jersies etc.

I'm not saying the club are openly marketing themselves as a stepping stone, but Liverpool are a stepping stone.

I don't hold any ill will for Suarez wanting to move on? I don't know what point you're trying to make to me? It's clear from the fans reaction and the clubs that we don't want to be seen as stepping stone. I'm not saying that isn't what Suarez other players may see us as but it's clear from the clubs reaction and the fans reaction in general that they don't see us as a stepping stone.

Opr

I am pie

Never mind the season, I don't think I can handle another pre-season like this. Best player leaving, the transfer target roller coaster and the hystericals calling for the manager's head before a ball has been kicked.

smileyj1987

Hidalgo wrote: »

If the contract has been signed by both sides I imagine its binding. It could well go to court, but arguing a 'we didn't understand the clauses' line won't go far.
One side is telling fibs or has made a f*ck up when the contract was signed.

I would agree with you on this , If Luis was stupid enough to sign a contract that didn't have what he wanted in it then that's his fault and his agents fault not the Clubs fault . If he wants out so then he should hand in a transfer request and let the club get the best price from someone outside the Premier League .

Hidalgo

GavRedKing wrote: »

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

For that to happen, something like Roman or the Sheiks would have to bail, and then Liverpool would have to hope that things in those clubs get messy. A lot of ifs, and even if the above occured and City and Chelsea nosedived the likes of Arsenal would be better positioned imo to take advantage.
You just wouldn't know with Spurs, they've a great platform built over the last few years, but its not that long ago since the pre-Harry days. Who would have thought then they'd be where they are now.

Liverpool might catch 1 of the sides above them ,but catching all is borderline delusional

unless of course a billionaire buys Liverpool, then all the problems are solved

Dickerty

opr wrote: »

Low noise, low fuss - You live in cloud cookoo land if that is how you remember Masch leaving.

The air is lovely up here!

He was clear, Rafa was clear. The Barca players talked it up a lot, but it was not that complicated. There was only 1 club in the mix, and we managed the situation so we had time to replace him (ultimately, until Lucas was ready).

It was nothing like this!

whatawaster

GavRedKing wrote: »

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

I think the top 4 are constantly treading water. They don't get better and better every year (or they haven't until now).
They are constantly signing good players but they lose good players too. The higher up the league you are the harder it is to improve.

LiamoSail

mike65 wrote: »

Huge, my arse. (well its a bit big). The only difference between the clubs is one has 5 European cups and the other has none and will continue to have none for the foreseeable future. When LFC get back into the CL (and they will at some point) the "whoosh" of money into the Liverpool machine will send the Gunners tumbling.

Anyone think the Gooners could get a Beatles level reception in Jakarta or Melbourne if they'd been out of the CL for 3 years and not won the PL ever?

mike65 wrote: »

The best news about this is that Liverpool have never sold a player who went on to better things, you might riposte with Alonso or Masch but all they did was go to bigger clubs who were better positioned, they didn't get any bigger or better than they already were.

Indeed most of the big names sold have had pretty mediocre careers thereafter. Hopefully this trend continues.

You know this isn't RAWK right?

Strongbow10

In the cold light of day Suarez has probably taken a look at our situation. We didn't even come close to securing 4th spot.

Were we going to push the boat out and GENUINELY add undoubted quality to our squad that would take us to another level?

He has clearly taken a look and seen the club sign (and calling a spade a spade) a 32 year old Man City reserve (who will be first choice), a Barcelona B player, a star striker of a side who nearly got relegated and a decent goalkeeper.

These are simply not the actions of a club looking to challenge at the business end of the table. Dress it up whatever way you want guys. Any "big names" coming is purely dependant on Suarez cash.

Our club are seemingly happy to thread water between midtable and the top 4, financially its better for us to do this. Excellent revenue streams, manageable wage structure etc... This looks better for the balance sheet than buying big and spending big on wages in order to challenge, and finishing 5th. Thats the reality.

Sure if we strike it very lucky and all of our budget signings work then finishing 4th would be a bonus. But its not a priority for these guys.

Some Villa fans last season I remember expressed their concern that their owner saw 17th place every season as being a success financially given the emphasis on youth. Clamp down on high earners across the board and promote youth who may/may not go on to bigger things. Pay them less and if any of these players hit the big time then you sell them for a big profit.

We are becoming a business, I just hope our owners ambitions extend beyond a healthy balance sheet.

Dickerty

Gbear wrote: »

Top 4 won't be happening anyway tbh.

Even with Suarez and, for example, Eriksen and another CB, we'd still be massive underdogs.

Really? Adding another CB, Erikson and the players already in, and we'd still be MASSIVE underdogs for 4th?

How is that glass looking? Half empty much?

LuckyLloyd

GavRedKing wrote: »

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

So long as we continue scrimping on the wage bill and trying to strike lucky in the <£15m transfer fee market we won't be closing the gap to CL Football anytime soon.

The logic in the summer of 2011 was correct - front load investment into the squad and try to aggressively improve the first 11. The wrong players were signed for the wrong fees, but the complete retraction from that idea over the next four windows is fundamentally incorrect. If you don't succeed, try and try again?

whatawaster

Dickerty wrote: »

The air is lovely up here!

He was clear, Rafa was clear. The Barca players talked it up a lot, but it was not that complicated. There was only 1 club in the mix, and we managed the situation so we had time to replace him (ultimately, until Lucas was ready).

It was nothing like this!

Except we never did replace him

Hidalgo

opr wrote: »

I don't hold any ill will for Suarez wanting to move on? I don't know what point you're trying to make to me? It's clear from the fans reaction and the clubs that we don't want to be seen as stepping stone. I'm not saying that isn't what Suarez other players may see us as but it's clear from the clubs reaction and the fans reaction in general that they don't see us as a stepping stone.

Opr

My point is this, Liverpool are currently a stepping stone. Players of Suarez's quality will not reach their goals playing at Liverpool.

Of course the fans don't want to be seen as a stepping stone and will kick up hell. They don't want their club to be a door mat. But they are.

I might think I'm the greatest man ever, but just because that's what I think doesn't make it so, fans can bury their heads in the sand all they like.

Strongbow10

whatawaster wrote: »

I think the top 4 are constantly treading water. They don't get better and better every year (or they haven't until now).
They are constantly signing good players but they lose good players too. The higher up the league you are the harder it is to improve.

Absolutely, this statement is spot on

Rafa found that out when he was our manager

opr

Dickerty wrote: »

The air is lovely up here!

He was clear, Rafa was clear. The Barca players talked it up a lot, but it was not that complicated. There was only 1 club in the mix, and we managed the situation so we had time to replace him (ultimately, until Lucas was ready).

It was nothing like this!

Masch left during Roy's time at the club

He ended up refusing to play for Liverpool at one stage to force through the sale.

Opr

Dickerty

whatawaster wrote: »

Except we never did replace him

We did, with Lucas. Player of the year after Masc left.

What else do you want??

JimsAlterEgo

Hidalgo wrote: »

If the contract has been signed by both sides I imagine its binding. It could well go to court, but arguing a 'we didn't understand the clauses' line won't go far.
One side is telling fibs or has made a f*ck up when the contract was signed.

check contract law (in particular regarding mutual mistakes) you would be surprised what defences can be used

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistake_%28contract_law%29 I know its wikipedia but point holds

A mutual mistake occurs when the parties to a contract are both mistaken about the same material fact within their contract. They are at cross-purposes. There is a meeting of the minds, but the parties are mistaken.

smileyj1987

Strongbow10 wrote: »

We are becoming a business, I just hope our owners ambitions extend beyond a healthy balance sheet.

All football clubs are a business , I really don't get all the criticism for FSG they are trying to implement a long term plan to make our balance sheet as healthy as possible .
They are in the middle of sorting out 20 years of mis management . We should have been making shed loads of cash years ago but Moores and Parry ran the club like it was a local sweet shop . While Man Utd ran a megastore and got themselves into the best finicial position possible .

djPSB

Must say I am personally delighted that Michael Owen never won a CL medal.

Glad he missed the 2005 triumph.

Dickerty

opr wrote: »

Masch left during Roy's time at the club

He ended up refusing to play for Liverpool at one stage to force through the sale.

Opr

But he tried to leave in 2009 and Rafa said he could go the following year (that was widely reported), and he got on with it.

Then the next summer arrived, and it looked like we wouldn't let him leave, so he threw his toys out.

We tried to keep a player that didn't want to be there. We should learn from that.

Leiva

has Suarez not travelled on with the party??

T-K-O

Hidalgo wrote: »

My point is this, Liverpool are currently a stepping stone. Players of Suarez's quality will not reach their goals playing at Liverpool.

Of course the fans don't want to be seen as a stepping stone and will kick up hell. They don't want their club to be a door mat. But they are.

I might think I'm the greatest man ever, but just because that's what I think doesn't make it so, fans can bury their heads in the sand all they like.

Kinda true but if we were English champions and in the CL's league. Suarez would still want the move to Real.

Ref: Ronaldo

5starpool

opr wrote: »

Masch left during Roy's time at the club

He ended up refusing to play for Liverpool at one stage to force through the sale.

Opr

Refused to play at City where we duly got tonked 3-0, and lucky it wasn't more.

Dickerty wrote: »

We did, with Lucas. Player of the year after Masc left.

What else do you want??

Replaced with a player who was already at the club 2 years? What foresight!

Hidalgo

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

check contract law (in particular regarding mutual mistakes) you would be surprised what defences can be used

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistake_%28contract_law%29 I know its wikipedia but point holds

Interesting, and this could be the justification for taking it to court as the quote you've used could help blur the lines. Doing so would benefit Suarez more than Liverpool.
Until the exact contents of the contract are seen, its only second guessing. Maybe the mistake is mutual, or maybe one side made a balls of it. You really would expect that it would have been spelt out clearly to both sides in black and white before signing

LiamoSail

This has got to be a new low for the thread, a Wikipedia based discussion on the finer points of contract law, concerning a contract no one here has actually seen. Possibly tops the time everyone became cultural/linguistic experts for a few weeks

Sappy404

GavRedKing wrote: »

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

The problem with a 3-5 year prediction is practically anything could happen to any of the clubs curently above or around Liverpool. One thing is for certain though - in that time, FSG will have to have finished the redevelopment and increased match day revenue, or Liverpool won't have a hope of competing with the wealthier clubs for silverware.

opr

Dickerty wrote: »

But he tried to leave in 2009 and Rafa said he could go the following year (that was widely reported), and he got on with it.

Then the next summer arrived, and it looked like we wouldn't let him leave, so he threw his toys out.

We tried to keep a player that didn't want to be there. We should learn from that.

I thought it was all sweetness and light (Low noise, low fuss) and he went off into the night with himself and club singing kumbaya? ffs, make up your bloody mind.

Opr

Kess73

GavRedKing wrote: »

Genuine question, do ye reckon that in the 3-5 years that the majority think it will take Liverpool to rival the current top 5 that the teams ahead of them will have regressed or stalled so much that Liverpool will push for a UCL position in 2018 or a title bid in the following subsequent years?

Liverpool have to improve to catch the teams above them and also hope that one or more falls away and in a 5 year time frame I cant see Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Utd falling to far and thats not even counting Spurs who could easily break into the top 4 next year.

Five years ago did you think Liverpool would regress in the manner they have done? Keep in mind that five years ago would have us just before the start of the 08/09 season.

Hidalgo

T-K-O wrote: »

Kinda true but if we were English champions and in the CL's league. Suarez will still want the move to Real.

Ref: Ronaldo

Most definitely, Madrid and Barca will always be the big draw for Spanish, Portuguese and South American players.
But Liverpool are a far bigger stepping stone than Utd. They can use trophies to convince players to stay, Liverpool can't (won't always work as your Ronaldo ref points out)

billymitchell

rarnes1 wrote: »

Selling to Arsenal for £50m would be a serious mistake.

It would ultimately cost Rodgers his job imo because top 4 won't be happening.

Do you really think its Rodgers decision if Suarez leaves? If a player wants to leave to get champions league football, I cant see how the blame lies solely with the manager. Shirely the owners would have to shoulder a lot of the blame for not supporting the current manager to give him the players that will get us to champions league level.

Dickerty

5starpool wrote: »

Replaced with a player who was already at the club 2 years? What foresight!

The point was that he wasn't ready to step into that role in 2009, he needed that extra year. We don't always need to buy to replace. Hopefully over the coming years, that will be more true...

opr

Hidalgo wrote: »

My point is this, Liverpool are currently a stepping stone. Players of Suarez's quality will not reach their goals playing at Liverpool.

Of course the fans don't want to be seen as a stepping stone and will kick up hell. They don't want their club to be a door mat. But they are.

I might think I'm the greatest man ever, but just because that's what I think doesn't make it so, fans can bury their heads in the sand all they like.

We're really on the same page then. My original point was just that the club were never going to throw a party for Suarez leaving as the club/fans don't see us as that stepping stone even if players now maybe do.

I don't think either you're being very fair on fans. It's one thing to be alright with players moving onto the big two in Spain as even the biggest clubs can't keep hold when they come calling but it's another thing entirely to be happy with him moving to Arsenal.

Opr

T-K-O

Hidalgo wrote: »

Most definitely, Madrid and Barca will always be the big draw for Spanish, Portuguese and South American players.
But Liverpool are a far bigger stepping stone than Utd. They can use trophies to convince players to stay, Liverpool can't (won't always work as your Ronaldo ref points out)

Loosing a player, especially a Latino to Spain is not a sign LFC has become a stepping stone. Not IMO anyway.

Yes we have fallen but far too many people confuse the claret of Villa with the red of Liverpool

Strongbow10

billymitchell wrote: »

Do you really think its Rodgers decision if Suarez leaves? If a player wants to leave to get champions league football, I cant see how the blame lies solely with the manager. Shirely the owners would have to shoulder a lot of the blame for not supporting the current manager to give him the players that will get us to champions league level.

I think the insinuation is that it will cost the manager his job in time by virtue of bad results such is the importance of Suarez.

Even just keeping Suarez and the addition of the new signings feels like threading water for me. Was really hoping we would see some serious additions to last seasons squad, but unfortunately it doesn't look that way now

To even contemplate having the same squad last season was unthinkable, never mind have a weaker squad.

5starpool

Sappy404 wrote: »

The problem with a 3-5 year prediction is practically anything could happen to any of the clubs curently above or around Liverpool. One thing is for certain though - in that time, FSG will have to have finished the redevelopment and increased match day revenue, or Liverpool won't have a hope of competing with the wealthier clubs for silverware.

Even if we magically had a 60k stadium tomorrow, we wouldn't come close to matching Utd or Arsenal in matchday revenue as the corporate market they have is far, far bigger, and that's where a lot of the revenue is generated. Liverpool tickets are also far dearer than other clubs in the north west, especially after the recent rises, and a large section of the local support are being increasingly priced out of attending matches regularly it seems, and also a smaller catchment area than utd/Arse as well. If we had a 60k stadium available for this season, I don't think we'd fill it every game by any means, although I'd imagine the average would be over the 55k mark, so it would be worth doing.

Leiva

Kess73 wrote: »

Five years ago did you think Liverpool would regress in the manner they have done? Keep in mind that five years ago would have us just before the start of the 08/09 season.

True Kess but our implosion happened at probably the worst year in the past 20 that it could have.The perfect cluster****if you must.

Chelsea, City - no chance in the next 5yrs of catching.

UTD - massive implosion needed but big revenues to shore up

Arsenal - possible chance but this window will set tone for next couple of years.
Absolutly critcal we do not add Suarez to their ranks.

Spurs - have a squad that is at least two seasons of improvement ahead of us and have also added another layer of quality this window. We are still well behind.Need AVB to be poached and them to not click.

So out of the above list we will only be scrapping for 4th (3rd at best) for the next <decade.
We will either need to do a BVB style revolution which I doubt will happen, or we get a massive investor so we can go to the market a sweep up some real talented players.
If we try and continue on our current course/policy then its between midtable and 5th for the forseeable years.