Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/2014

SlickRic

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The last 18 months of G & H's reign were utterly disastrous. It was a key period for the squad we had slowly built up which required tweaking and freshening and the money ran out at the worst possible time. Kenny didn't fix it but this thread pretends it was all his doing at times which is hugely incorrect.

i hope nobody thinks it was all Kenny's fault. that would be idiotic.

but it's just as idiotic for anyone to suggest that he isn't somewhat to blame, that's all.

some parts of this thread pretend Kenny can do no wrong, and anyone who suggests he has done some wrong, are disrespecting him and his legacy and/or are throwing him under a bus.

i'm out now on this topic though, it's been done to death

mike65

Sign chance of Signing Tuesday?

Kerrigooney

mike65 wrote: »

Sign chance of Signing Tuesday?

No Mike. It's all about the alliteration.

It would be nice tho.

RasTa

What's the point in selling Downing 2 seasons in for 5 million?

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

What's the point in selling Downing 2 seasons in for 5 million?

No real point from a footballing perspective. He's a handy squad player at this point (even if we signed him to be a lot more).

But the club is clearly attempting to further slash the wage bill so removing him fits with such a policy.

klose

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Liverpool Echo has Downing going to Newcastle for £5M - another awful financial hit if the rumour comes to fruition.

Indeed however we are selling him for what hes actually worth, not for what comolli and kenny spent when they were acting like spoiled brats with their daddys credit card. Hes worth probably a bit more then 5 mill, maybe 7 but we clearly dont want him here so cant be haggling for more.

Kerrigooney

RasTa wrote: »

What's the point in selling Downing 2 seasons in for 5 million?

No point really but it's all about dem wages these days.

mike65

RasTa wrote: »

What's the point in selling Downing 2 seasons in for 5 million?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No real point from a footballing perspective. He's a handy squad player at this point (even if we signed him to be a lot more).

But the club is clearly attempting to further slash the wage bill so removing him fits with such a policy.

83k a week apparently, keeping him until his contract runs out returns exactly nothing to the club when a younger player can take his place on half that wage. 5.8 million better than 0 million.

Vicxas

Were all about the FFP these days, apart from our golden boys.

5starpool

messinkiapina wrote: »

I hope he goes, as long as it's not to Arsenal, and as long as there are still a couple of weeks left in the window. Otherwise, we're going to have the same situation again next summer, and it will drag long into the summer with it being a world cup year too.

It's hard to make other transfer plans when the future of your best player is hanging in the balance, even if there's only one way it's going to go, realistically. I think it's gone some way to making a balls of the current window, planning wise. It would be better if it was resolved now rather than letting it drag into 2 more transfer windows, imo.

Another way of looking at it if he stays until after the world cup next year and then leaves, is that another good world cup showing certainly would do his valuation no harm.

PRAF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As a confirmed Kenny apologist I have no problem admitting that he should take a share of the blame on the transfers. As I've discussed on here before, in all liklehood there was an element of groupthink on every transfer during that period (and every transfer before and since). Commolli has installed scouts and had people working to identify names. Kenny would have had his opinions and probably would have talked potential deals over with Clarke and some or all of his coaches. The ultimate decisions rested with a combination of Commoli and Dalglish, and they failed on the majority of their acquisitions. The wrong targets were identified, and we negotiated purchase prices poorly.

But all that said and accepted, two things still hold true:

- It was correct to want to invest in the team and aggressively attempt to improve the playing staff;
- Commoli and Dalglish inherited a mess following three transfer windows in which the club did ever worse business and failed to address fundamental weaknesses and gaps;

Kenny took over a huge mess and left it slightly smaller. Paulsen, Jovanovic, Cole, Konchesky, Babel, N'gog. It wasn't as if Kenny didn't have dead wood to clear out or deal with. It wasn't as if he inherited a perfectly balanced squad. And this was all in the context of the star player on the squad wanting out when he took over.

The last 18 months of G & H's reign were utterly disastrous. It was a key period for the squad we had slowly built up which required tweaking and freshening and the money ran out at the worst possible time. Kenny didn't fix it but this thread pretends it was all his doing at times which is hugely incorrect.

I'm not a Kenny apologist but I was a huge fan of him during his first stint in charge of the club. Never saw him in his pomp, but obviously he was also an absolute legend as a player. Naturally, I'm a bit sympathetic to the King and so will usually try to find the positives when it comes to assessing him.

In terms of the positives, he steadied the ship when he took over. The two cup runs were great. You correctly point out that he did lots of good work clearing out some of the dross he inherited. Also if he takes the blame for Carroll, then surely he also takes the credit for Suarez. Enrique has proved value for money and I think in time Hendo will too.

Unfortunately, his legacy will be a bit tainted by the deals for Carroll and Downing. Also, I think we lost a lot of goodwill (from other fans, media, neutrals, etc.) over the handling of the Suarez-Evra affair.

rob316

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No real point from a footballing perspective. He's a handy squad player at this point (even if we signed him to be a lot more).

But the club is clearly attempting to further slash the wage bill so removing him fits with such a policy.

There is no need for him absolutely zero, he is totally ineffective in what hes supposed to do i.e consistently beat his man, provide crosses, pace to the flanks. Having him hanging around on 80k a week is an insult to far better young players in the squad that we have.

Whatever about loaning Reina and possibly Skrtel in an attempt to move on high earners there is no justification for keeping downing.

I never wanted him, he peaked at Aston Villa, hes such an average player. Even Joe Cole had more talent than him and thats saying something.

PRAF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No real point from a footballing perspective. He's a handy squad player at this point (even if we signed him to be a lot more).

But the club is clearly attempting to further slash the wage bill so removing him fits with such a policy.

I don't think FSG are looking to slash the wage bill for the sake of it. I think what they're doing is identifying and disposing of the players who are not providing enough value for the high wages they are getting (e.g. Cole, Aqua, Carroll, Adam, etc.). Reina and Downing fall into that category when the manager goes out and buys replacements for them

I wouldn't say Gerrard, Agger, Lucas, etc. are on peanuts. The difference is that they are first team regulars who are earning their money

Grayditch

It appears we missed out on more than we thought, with Dempsey. He's an even better rapper than Ryan Babble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFr5MM7EdGw#at=10

Francie Barrett

PRAF wrote: »

I don't think FSG are looking to slash the wage bill for the sake of it. I think what they're doing is identifying and disposing of the players who are not providing enough value for the high wages they are getting (e.g. Cole, Aqua, Carroll, Adam, etc.). Reina and Downing fall into that category when the manager goes out and buys replacements for them

Yea, Sterling cost nothing, is on half the wages and is playing at a level near the level of Downing with improvement to come.

Amirani

What do people see as the first choice 11 next season? On the face of it it looks like there will be a good bit of rotation, particularly if Suarez stays?

Will it be more 4-3-3 or will it change to more of a 4-2-3-1 given all the attacking options available?

Something like this?

billymitchell

NiallSparky wrote: »

What do people see as the first choice 11 next season? On the face of it it looks like there will be a good bit of rotation, particularly if Suarez stays?

Will it be more 4-3-3 or will it change to more of a 4-2-3-1 given all the attacking options available?

Something like this?

I'd have Cout on the left, and we need to bring in another option to play at the head of the midfield 3.

mike65

NiallSparky wrote: »

What do people see as the first choice 11 next season? On the face of it it looks like there will be a good bit of rotation, particularly if Suarez stays?

Will it be more 4-3-3 or will it change to more of a 4-2-3-1 given all the attacking options available?

Something like this?

(assuming Suarez stays) I can't see all four attacking players together, Aspas would be the goal scoring/creating option from the bench.

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

some parts of this thread pretend Kenny can do no wrong

This is not true.

Can you please cite some examples? Thanks.

RasTa wrote: »

What's the point in selling Downing 2 seasons in for 5 million?

Can't really see the point myself. But it is in line with the poor business we're doing this window.

Can we get a better player than Downing for £5m?
I very much doubt it.
Therefore Downing should stay.
If this goes through the apologists will cite it a saving from the wage bill & generating some menial transfer funds, but in reality, it will weaken the squad and be ANOTHER piece of business we'll have to get done before the end of the window.

As I said before, running to stand still doesn't even nearly cover it.

5starpool

Downing was generally muck for us in his first season, but I thought last year he did a reasonably ok job. He certainly wasn't tearing it up, but he generally was fairly consistent, and I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him there as an option in the coming season either. I think his defensive cover would be welcome in some of the bigger games as well as being an attacking outlet.

I won't be too disappointed if he goes either, but I think he is being judged a tad too harshly given how he did last year overall. If he does go I'd hope he'd get a good reception as a visiting player as he has never said a bad word about us, and instead tried to quietly fight for his place which is what you want ideally.

Raif Severance

NiallSparky wrote: »

What do people see as the first choice 11 next season? On the face of it it looks like there will be a good bit of rotation, particularly if Suarez stays?

Will it be more 4-3-3 or will it change to more of a 4-2-3-1 given all the attacking options available?

Something like this?

You got some of this wrong.

Agger is a LCB.

For now this is probably our Strongest Lineup if Suarez stays:

---

Mignolet
Johnson--Toure--Agger--Enrique

---

Gerrard--Lucas

---

Coutinho
--Aspas----Sturridge---Suarez

Milkers

I still don't know what to really make of Rodgers but what gives me some cause for optimism is the fact that he seems reasonably astute in recognising when players aren't good enough for the team e.g. Spearing right from the get go, Skrtel, the declining Reina, Carroll, and now maybe Downing. I don't think the squad is good enough to challenge tbh but at the same time at least there are very few players left that you are just left facepalming when they are selected.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As a confirmed Kenny apologist I have no problem admitting that he should take a share of the blame on the transfers. As I've discussed on here before, in all liklehood there was an element of groupthink on every transfer during that period (and every transfer before and since). Commolli has installed scouts and had people working to identify names. Kenny would have had his opinions and probably would have talked potential deals over with Clarke and some or all of his coaches. The ultimate decisions rested with a combination of Commoli and Dalglish, and they failed on the majority of their acquisitions. The wrong targets were identified, and we negotiated purchase prices poorly.

But all that said and accepted, two things still hold true:

- It was correct to want to invest in the team and aggressively attempt to improve the playing staff;
- Commoli and Dalglish inherited a mess following three transfer windows in which the club did ever worse business and failed to address fundamental weaknesses and gaps;

Kenny took over a huge mess and left it slightly smaller. Paulsen, Jovanovic, Cole, Konchesky, Babel, N'gog. It wasn't as if Kenny didn't have dead wood to clear out or deal with. It wasn't as if he inherited a perfectly balanced squad. And this was all in the context of the star player on the squad wanting out when he took over.

The last 18 months of G & H's reign were utterly disastrous. It was a key period for the squad we had slowly built up which required tweaking and freshening and the money ran out at the worst possible time. Kenny didn't fix it but this thread pretends it was all his doing at times which is hugely incorrect.

But you've never allowed Rodgers any of the same excuses, have you?

He inherited a mess. Whether it was as big a mess as Kenny inherited is debatable. But look at the squad Rodgers took over and tell me how many real quality players he inherited? This was then exacerbated by a handful of first team players who were a) past their best, and b) wanted to leave anyway - these players were Kuyt, Bellamy and Maxi

The only players you could be reasonably sure of building a squad around imo were Agger, Johnson, Lucas, Gerrard and Suarez.

The others were either past their best (Carra, Kuyt, Bellamy, Maxi, Aurelio, Cole), wanted to leave (Kuyt, Bellamy, Maxi, Aquilani), were not good enough (Downing, Adam, Cole)

That left us with the young players (Sterling, Suso, Kelly) and the question-marks (Carroll, Henderson, Enrique).

The sum of these parts was a squad that had finished 6th, 7th & 8th in its last 3 seasons with declining points achieved each year.

My assertion would be that Rodgers inherited a mess and has made it significantly smaller (just my opinion). Still a long way to go though.

Courtesy Flush

Rogers is trying to clean up the mess of the previous two managers. I think the team will be in a better position for it financially and on the field

mike65

Milkers wrote: »

I still don't know what to really make of Rodgers but what gives me some cause for optimism is the fact that he seems reasonably astute in recognising when players aren't good enough for the team e.g. Spearing right from the get go, Skrtel, the declining Reina, Carroll, and now maybe Downing. I don't think the squad is good enough to challenge tbh but at the same time at least there are very few players left that you are just left facepalming when they are selected.

Its a pretty good measure. Or thinking "would Roy have bought (or played) him?"

The squad is being reshaped from stolid/stupid to smart and lively.

T-K-O

Raif Severance wrote: »

You got some of this wrong.

Agger is a LCB.

For now this is probably our Strongest Lineup if Suarez stays:

---

Mignolet
Johnson--Toure--Agger--Enrique

---

Gerrard--Lucas

---

Coutinho
--Aspas----Sturridge---Suarez

Jaysus...:D

Give him a break

5live

NiallSparky wrote: »

What do people see as the first choice 11 next season? On the face of it it looks like there will be a good bit of rotation, particularly if Suarez stays?

Will it be more 4-3-3 or will it change to more of a 4-2-3-1 given all the attacking options available?

Something like this?

Mignolet
Johnson Toure Agger Enrique
Lucas
Allen Gerrard
Suarez Sturridge Coutinho

With Aspas Sterling Ibe Henderson being first choice subs/alternate starters

Mr Alan

Mike/Whatawaster, to listen to yous, you'd think this summer has been going well for us :rolleyes:

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is not true.

Can you please cite some examples? Thanks.




Can't really see the point myself. But it is in line with the poor business we're doing this window.

Can we get a better player than Downing for £5m?
I very much doubt it.
Therefore Downing should stay.
If this goes through the apologists will cite it a saving from the wage bill & generating some menial transfer funds, but in reality, it will weaken the squad.

If we play a front 3 - without Downing we have 9 options for 3 positions

Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, NEW SIGNING (Costa?), Borini, Aspas, Alberto Sterling, Ibe

If we play a front 4 - we have 11 options for 4 positions

Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, NEW SIGNING (Costa?), Borini, Aspas, Sterling, Ibe, Henderson, Gerrard, Alberto

Obviously the above is dependent on a new signing like Costa coming in, but as things stand there is absolutely no point in keeping Downing. He is very much backup and I would have Sterling ahead of him as impact winger any day of the week.

T-K-O

whatawaster wrote: »

If we play a front 3 - without Downing we have 9 options for 3 positions

Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, NEW SIGNING (Costa?), Borini, Aspas, Alberto Sterling, Ibe

If we play a front 4 - we have 11 options for 4 positions

Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, NEW SIGNING (Costa?), Borini, Aspas, Sterling, Ibe, Henderson, Gerrard, Alberto

Obviously the above is dependent on a new signing like Costa coming in, but as things stand there is absolutely no point in keeping Downing. He is very much backup and I would have Sterling ahead of him as impact winger any day of the week.

Apologist.

Vicxas

Mr Alan wrote: »

Mike/Whatawaster, to listen to yous, you'd think this summer has been going well for us :rolleyes:

Well it hasn't been bad just not great

billymitchell

I know Rodgers is a fan of his, but does anybody really think Borini will feature for Liverpool this season? I hope we dont. I'd really prefer to see the likes of Ibe, Sterling, Alberto get some valuable first team time rather than Rodgers continuing to show faith in Borini

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is not true.

Can you please cite some examples? Thanks.

daithi implied pretty strongly that Kenny should be abstained from blame as Kenny was "just glad to have more players", or something to that effect. i quoted it earlier.

also, it's interesting that you chose to highlight my hyperbole and not Lloyd's about people "pretending everything was Kenny's fault".

Mr Alan

SlickRic wrote: »

daithi implied pretty strongly that Kenny should be abstained from blame as Kenny was "just glad to have more players", or something to that effect. i quoted it earlier.

also, it's interesting that you chose to highlight my hyperbole and not Lloyd's about people "pretending everything was Kenny's fault".

It's not that interesting. A lot of people do pretend everything was Kenny's fault.

Re: whoever said it's been a decent window, not a great one. That doesn't even deserve a response.

klose

billymitchell wrote: »

I know Rodgers is a fan of his, but does anybody really think Borini will feature for Liverpool this season? I hope we dont. I'd really prefer to see the likes of Ibe, Sterling, Alberto get some valuable first team time rather than Rodgers continuing to show faith in Borini

I imagine he was signed on blind faith of sorts and hes probably very dissapointed, hes been unlucky with injuries yes and hes shown glimpses of good things but he was pretty poor so far this pre season, the lad reeks of a confidence player hes been to what, 4 clubs in 4 years? He probably dhasent felt wanted in ages which cant help.

Demosthenese

Window only starts for us WHEN Suarez moves on and we have proper cash to spend. Its pretty clear we do not have the money to spend atm ... probably ~20mill in the kitty, downing moving on represents the last of the big earners who were mistakes off the books - not great business but sensible business. Am i the only one who thinks its brilliant to get 18mill for Carroll???

5starpool

billymitchell wrote: »

I know Rodgers is a fan of his, but does anybody really think Borini will feature for Liverpool this season? I hope we dont. I'd really prefer to see the likes of Ibe, Sterling, Alberto get some valuable first team time rather than Rodgers continuing to show faith in Borini

I don't think he will still be there come September 3rd, but if he is I hope he features if he deserves to based on training and whatever chances come his way. I don't see him being near first choice, but if he can do well then ok. I'm guessing he will get limited chances though unless he does come in and do well.

PhiloCypher

Mr Alan wrote: »

It's not that interesting. A lot of people do pretend everything was Kenny's fault.

Re: whoever said it's been a decent window, not a great one. That doesn't even deserve a response.

You have made it pretty clear time and again that anybody with an opinion contrary to your own is beneath you Alan(so like 90%of posters in this thread) , I have no idea why you even deign to post here.

Grayditch

Demosthenese wrote: »

Am i the only one who thinks its brilliant to get 18mill for Carroll???

I can't bring myself to use the word brilliant because of the loss incurred, but it's certainly the best realistic outcome of a bad situation and more than anyone could have hoped for.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

It's not that interesting. A lot of people do pretend everything was Kenny's fault.

so, just like some will claim Comolli made the signings, and Kenny just dealt with what he was given.

NukaCola

Mr Alan wrote: »

Can we get a better player than Downing for £5m?
I very much doubt it.
Therefore Downing should stay

Downing should be shipped out and replaced by a better player. End of.
I dont agree with everything the club is doing but this guy has to be turfed out.

Grayditch

He's better than 5m. He's not great, but he's definitely better than 5m. Wages are obviously a factor. All time. Always with the wages.

mike65

Sterling and Ibe would both offer more going forward, but not much when defending - that's Downings only plus point - he is tireless.

rob316

I might have known Lloyd and Mr Alan would be against downing been sold, entirely predictable lads.

Ye're talk about the club having ambition is hilarious when in the same breath you can defend keeping an over the hill 29 yr old ineffective winger languishing on the bench collecting 80k per week.

Ambition is moving out Downing and replacing him with an exciting young, hungry player who will add competition to the squad.

5starpool

NukaCola wrote: »

Downing should be shipped out and replaced by a better player. End of.
I dont agree with everything the club is doing but this guy has to be turfed out.

Turfed out is a horrible way of putting it. Loyalty in football is a two way street. We can't demand it from the likes of Suarez when there are so many with attitudes like this towards Downing.

Sell/upgrade fine, but we should all try to be as respectful as possible. I know he isn't exactly likely to read your comment specifically, but it all feeds into the same throwaway culture in football. I'm sure I've been guilty of it many times myself, but I recognise the need to be less that way when I want to see players we want to want LFC too.

aramush

So if Skrtel,Downing, Assaidi and Suarez go we have less than a month to find a first choice centre half, first choice striker, a winger and a left back. Could see us going back in for Astu, Papa, unsure on left back and I would love to see us go for Muriel (along with Costa) if Suarez goes.

NukaCola

5starpool wrote: »

Turfed out is a horrible way of putting it. Loyalty in football is a two way street. We can't demand it from the likes of Suarez when there are so many with attitudes like this towards Downing.

Sell/upgrade fine, but we should all try to be as respectful as possible. I know he isn't exactly likely to read your comment specifically, but it all feeds into the same throwaway culture in football. I'm sure I've been guilty of it many times myself, but I recognise the need to be less that way when I want to see players we want to want LFC too.

It was more of a figure of speech, badly worded....my point is, he should be left go.....

NukaCola

Grayditch wrote: »

He's better than 5m. He's not great, but he's definitely better than 5m. Wages are obviously a factor. All time. Always with the wages.

The price of 5m is probably because of his wage demands.....he'd do a good job for a mid-table team, but if we want to push on we need to bring in a higher quality player.

billymitchell

mike65 wrote: »

Sterling and Ibe would both offer more going forward, but not much when defending - that's Downings only plus point - he is tireless.

If we play with two CM's, we can afford to have our wingers give more in attack than the do in defence.

daithijjj

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

The timing didn't help. That was it. There was no need to spend that much if there was no perceived value in the market so long as promises were made that the money would be spent in the summer.



As Slick said basically.

Do you think Kenny had little to no say as to who was signed under his second tenure? I ask because it sounds like you're absolving Kenny from any blame over the tragically awful signings that were made.

Everyone still knows you have a 50m wedge in your sky rocket, they wont forget about it.

Kenny ok'd the players, Comolli ok'd the prices because that was his job and the remit FSG gave him. Much the same as what Rick Parry did under Benitez for Keane.

As has been said, nobody thought value was got but you pay for players you take your chances. Downing and Henderson were players of the year at their clubs, high on stats charts etc. For all i know the yanks got sold on that.