LGH A&E flooded!!

smashey

Senna wrote: »

No excuse for it, the planners should be brought to account for professional negligence, plenty of buildings are built in hollows but storm drains should have been incorporated into the design.

Senna, I have to pull you up on that comment. The engineers would have designed the storm drainage based on (muffler might correct me here) either a 50 year or a 100 year event which is standard practice. What happened in Letterkenny on Friday far outweighed that.

Local-womanizer

The sewage came from the sewage system in the hospital itself. A lot of the water ran through the drains causing them to overflow within the building back up through the toilets themselves.

Noreen1

derossi wrote: »

The stream burst it banks in the top right of that picture. There is two burns that meet just before that drainage tunnel behind the mortuary. The drain could not handle the volume of water that would have come from the Glencar, Mountain Top area. This water travels down under the side of the hospital and out down beside Oatfield sweet factory. That picture is taken just above where the ambulances bring patients in to A & E. There should be no real sewerage issues with it but it will still all need to be decontaminated.

It is an absolute disaster, millions of euro will be needed to sort it and the knock on of it will last for a long time!

Thanks for the info.

It is a real disaster - though I'd be more concerned with how long it's going to take to repair than what it will cost.
Too many people are depending on that hospital, and both Altnagelvin and Sligo were busy enough the last time I was at either. I don't believe either are realistically in a position to take up the slack for long, and that's not a criticism of either hospital.
I wonder if James Reilly is taking this as seriously as he should?
I haven't heard the word "urgent" in any of his statements to date, or the magic words "extra funding, either?
I might have missed them, though.

smashey wrote: »

Senna, I have to pull you up on that comment. The engineers would have designed the storm drainage based on (muffler might correct me here) either a 50 year or a 100 year event which is standard practice. What happened in Letterkenny on Friday far outweighed that.

I can't argue with what is, or isn't standard engineering practice.
What I can say, is that given the amounts of rainfall over the past number of years, the drainage in place was never going to handle that level of water, or anything close to it.

Maybe it's time to revise that 50, or 100 year rule? As a bare minimum, where a service as vital as a Hospital is concerned?
There seems to be an awful lot of flooding over the past couple of years, so weather patterns do seem to be changing, and maybe standard engineering practice needs to change, too?

In fairness, there's probably no point in criticising engineers for applying the rules.
The drainage at the back of my house, which is on top of a hill, was upgraded
about 8 years ago, and, tbh, it can't take all the water from the heavier showers any more.
It seems logical to think that drainage needs to be looked at with a view to changing weather patterns in new builds?

Noreen1

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The sewage came from the sewage system in the hospital itself. A lot of the water ran through the drains causing them to overflow within the building back up through the toilets themselves.

Ah! That makes sense, now! Thanks.
(Sounds disgusting, mind you!)

Senna

smashey wrote: »

Senna, I have to pull you up on that comment. The engineers would have designed the storm drainage based on (muffler might correct me here) either a 50 year or a 100 year event which is standard practice. What happened in Letterkenny on Friday far outweighed that.

Does that mean they are designed to handle the kind of rain that would fall only once every 50/100 years or they are not designed to handle a rain event only seen once every 50/100 years?
Was last friday something worst that what we would expect once every 50/100 year?
Was the flooding last year (when the new A&E flooded first) worst than a once every 50/100 years event too?

Standard practice may be fine for designing houses,shops etc but this is a Hospital that should have a safe practical life span far exceeding standard buildings. Its about time we stop making excuses of the crap building standards in Ireland, a hospital should be designed for worst case scenario (especially wind and rain) so we don't have to make up excuses when it rains two years in a row.

muffler

Senna wrote: »

Does that mean they are designed to handle the kind of rain that would fall only once every 50/100 years or they are not designed to handle a rain event only seen once every 50/100 years?
Was last friday something worst that what we would expect once every 50/100 year?
Was the flooding last year (when the new A&E flooded first) worst than a once every 50/100 years event too?

Standard practice may be fine for designing houses,shops etc but this is a Hospital that should have a safe practical life span far exceeding standard buildings. Its about time we stop making excuses of the crap building standards in Ireland, a hospital should be designed for worst case scenario (especially wind and rain) so we don't have to make up excuses when it rains two years in a row.

I dont think you fully understand the principles of design in this instance and Im not going to bore anyone with the finer details but smashey is correct in what he said.

One of the criteria used in storm drainage design is to factor in the heaviest recorded rainfall since records began. Records here could be different than records for Wexford for example so its important to note that recorded amounts of rainfall "fluctuates" around the country. Then there is an extra safety factor built in to allow for a percentage rainfall higher than the last known recorded high.

There is absolutely no way that consulting engineers would deviate from what is after all part of services that are governed by the building regulations. It doesnt make one iota of a difference if the storm drainage is for a hospital or a whore house. The same design principles are practiced.

In saying all that I don/t think any of us know for sure what caused the problem and more importantly why. I see people blaming planners and engineers but I have yet to see anyone point the finger of blame at the contractor. Designing is one thing but was the system constructed as per the design though. I don't know but I would dearly love to.

Cee-Jay-Cee

The rain that fell last week was heavy but I have seen heavier in letterkenny in the last few years. The fact that The new wing was flooded prior to it being opened should have alerted planners/builders that drainage structures were inadequate but the government in their haste at getting a good news story to deflect from the utter mess they have made of this country pushed for the opening when the facility clearly wasn't ready to be opened and further drainage work was needed.

The government couldn't give a rats ass about the problem otherwise there would be a huge push and all resources possible made available to speed up the clean up/re-opening of the new wing but Reilly would rather fart about huffing and puffing (no pun intended) about banning smoking in public places and other such rubbish.

Noreen1

muffler wrote: »

In saying all that I don/t think any of us know for sure what caused the problem and more importantly why. I see people blaming planners and engineers but I have yet to see anyone point the finger of blame at the contractor. Designing is one thing but was the system constructed as per the design though. I don't know but I would dearly love to.

Fair point!

Someone also mentioned earlier in the thread, that the new A&E is lower than the existing buildings (i.e. the old hospital building)? Surely not, given the "funnel" effect I mentioned earlier?

Noreen1

CJC999 wrote: »

The rain that fell last week was heavy but I have seen heavier in letterkenny in the last few years. The fact that The new wing was flooded prior to it being opened should have alerted planners/builders that drainage structures were inadequate but the government in their haste at getting a good news story to deflect from the utter mess they have made of this country pushed for the opening when the facility clearly wasn't ready to be opened and further drainage work was needed.

The government couldn't give a rats ass about the problem otherwise there would be a huge push and all resources possible made available to speed up the clean up/re-opening of the new wing but Reilly would rather fart about huffing and puffing (no pun intended) about banning smoking in public places and other such rubbish.

Of course. The truth is, imo, that the current Government are busy enjoying their little power trip! They get to engage in the great austerity experiment, and swan off into the sunset on big, fat pensions, just like the last lot did!

Donegal, and it's people, have long been ignored by successive Governments.
If a Dublin/Cork/Galway/AnOther hospital were effectively shut down, there'd be all sorts of wild rhetoric about how it was a "priority"!

Donegal, however? "Ah, sure we'll take a run down, and see what the story is.
That'll keep them quiet!:rolleyes:
Meanwhile, let's get on with the more important stuff - now, what was that pet project of mine again?":rolleyes:

michael999999

muffler wrote: »

I dont think you fully understand the principles of design in this instance and Im not going to bore anyone with the finer details but smashey is correct in what he said.

One of the criteria used in storm drainage design is to factor in the heaviest recorded rainfall since records began. Records here could be different than records for Wexford for example so its important to note that recorded amounts of rainfall "fluctuates" around the country. Then there is an extra safety factor built in to allow for a percentage rainfall higher than the last known recorded high.

There is absolutely no way that consulting engineers would deviate from what is after all part of services that are governed by the building regulations. It doesnt make one iota of a difference if the storm drainage is for a hospital or a whore house. The same design principles are practiced.

In saying all that I don/t think any of us know for sure what caused the problem and more importantly why. I see people blaming planners and engineers but I have yet to see anyone point the finger of blame at the contractor. Designing is one thing but was the system constructed as per the design though. I don't know but I would dearly love to.

But wouldnt the engineers have been monitoring the works carried out by the contractors on a public contract like the building of a hospital?

muffler

Noreen1 wrote: »

Fair point!

Someone also mentioned earlier in the thread, that the new A&E is lower than the existing buildings (i.e. the old hospital building)? Surely not, given the "funnel" effect I mentioned earlier?

According to Google Earth the new A & E is 4 metres higher than the old hospital (outpatients clinic)

muffler

michael999999 wrote: »

But wouldnt the engineers have been monitoring the works carried out by the contractors on a public contract like the building of a hospital?

There would have been some form of inspections certainly. As to who would have been involved I dont know. Not nit picking here btw but it most likely would not have been the drainage design engineers though.

muffler

If its any help, especially to anyone who has yet to visit the new A & E or dont know where it is, Bing maps gives a nice overview of both the hospital and the A & E. Just zoom in and then select "birds eye" or aerial from the menu near the top left. You can also rotate the image round to get a view from 4 different angles by selecting the arrows around the north point (top right) when in birds eye mode.

Senna

muffler wrote: »

There is absolutely no way that consulting engineers would deviate from what is after all part of services that are governed by the building regulations. It doesnt make one iota of a difference if the storm drainage is for a hospital or a whore house. The same design principles are practiced.

I'm not too sure why your post (and others from within construction) are defending these broad country wide regulations and don't even seem to question why these regulations (which we can only assume were adhered too) were not capable of keeping water out of the hospital, in what was only a heavy rain event, i'd question if this was even a 10 year event, never mind a 50/100 year event.
But poor construction and poor building regulations is nothing new in Ireland, I only question why a hospital is not designed better than as you say a "whore house":rolleyes:

boxer.fan

There is a much wider issue at play here. A large portion of the blame must lie with the Council management. Almost every gulley around the town has grass growing out of it, even the lightest shower of rain has storm water flowing along the sides of the road. The heavy torrent on friday evening had nowhere else to go but down the road & in the back door of the hospital. This was evident all over the town. Gulley cleaners used to be seen regularly out about. Haven't seen them in years.

muffler

Senna wrote: »

I'm not too sure why your post (and others from within construction) are defending these broad country wide regulations

Do not reference my posts in any other forums. If you have an issue with anything I have said then there are procedures to follow but derailing this thread isnt one of them.

Maldesu

boxer.fan wrote: »

There is a much wider issue at play here. A large portion of the blame must lie with the Council management. Almost every gulley around the town has grass growing out of it, even the lightest shower of rain has storm water flowing along the sides of the road. The heavy torrent on friday evening had nowhere else to go but down the road & in the back door of the hospital. This was evident all over the town.

There still would have been an issue. There is only so much a gully can support and there is a point where they can't take any more water either from filling up, or the flow is too strong. Same with hills, they either reach saturation point or cannot absorb it fast enough. Similar with the drains around the hospital I expect, is that they just couldn't adjust to the surge of even a small stream collapsing. One the process was in motion it couldn't recover. The buildup in the stream was probably caused by run off from surrounding fields, but also the housing up Long Lane, Glencar and beyond. Any rainwater that falls on road surfaces or housing must go somewhere, if not into the ground then it will flow downwards until reaching a valley (pretty much a holding tank) or the river.

michael999999

Senna wrote: »

I'm not too sure why your post (and others from within construction) are defending these broad country wide regulations and don't even seem to question why these regulations (which we can only assume were adhered too) were not capable of keeping water out of the hospital, in what was only a heavy rain event, i'd question if this was even a 10 year event, never mind a 50/100 year event.
But poor construction and poor building regulations is nothing new in Ireland, I only question why a hospital is not designed better than as you say a "whore house":rolleyes:

Sure dont you know, it's never anyone's fault in Ireland for anything.

It was a freak event that the highly paid professional engineers couldn't possibly have planned for!

I painted a building in the campus of UL about 5 years ago, and what do you know a few of the new buildings around the campus suffered severe flooding. Another one of these one in a hundred year event.

NIMAN

Baby due in Sept, will my next child definitely be a Donegal baby, or a Derry/Sligo baby??

icescreamqueen

NIMAN wrote: »

Baby due in Sept, will my next child definitely be a Donegal baby, or a Derry/Sligo baby??

My baby is due any minute! I'm overdue since Wednesday. Looks like I'll be having a water birth! Bring the goggles and arm bands with you :P

NIMAN

Have they told you anything about maternity services being affected?

By the way, best of luck.

icescreamqueen

NIMAN wrote: »

Have they told you anything about maternity services being affected?

By the way, best of luck.

Apparently the maternity ward is fully operational. I'll let you know for definite tomorrow as I have an appointment in the hospital. I was told the only difference is that now you'll be using the main entrance to get to the maternity ward all the time rather than after 10p.m using the emergency entrance.

Senna

icescreamqueen wrote: »

Apparently the maternity ward is fully operational. I'll let you know for definite tomorrow as I have an appointment in the hospital. I was told the only difference is that now you'll be using the main entrance to get to the maternity ward all the time rather than after 10p.m using the emergency entrance.

Ask them are emergency c-sections still able to be preformed within the hospital. I'm sure they are, but rumour going around that they are not.

icescreamqueen

Senna wrote: »

Ask them are emergency c-sections still able to be preformed within the hospital. I'm sure they are, but rumour going around that they are not.

I haven't heard of that one but I'll ask tomorrow to be definite. Hopefully it won't come to that for anyone

Noreen1

icescreamqueen wrote: »

Apparently the maternity ward is fully operational. I'll let you know for definite tomorrow as I have an appointment in the hospital. I was told the only difference is that now you'll be using the main entrance to get to the maternity ward all the time rather than after 10p.m using the emergency entrance.

Well, at least that's one good thing to come of it!
That link corridor is very long when you're in labour, if there's no wheelchair handy!:p

By the way, good luck to both of you!

icescreamqueen

Noreen1 wrote: »

Well, at least that's one good thing to come of it!
That link corridor is very long when you're in labour, if there's no wheelchair handy!:p

By the way, good luck to both of you!

Thank you . I had a false alarm on Wednesday night and it did seem like a pretty long walk and I wasn't even in pain. Couldn't imagine doing it if you were in pain.

Penfailed

Senna wrote: »

Its about time we stop making excuses of the crap building standards in Ireland, a hospital should be designed for worst case scenario (especially wind and rain)

Worst case scenario for wind and rain? ...what...like a Category 5 hurricane? That would be silly.

Senna wrote: »

in what was only a heavy rain event, i'd question if this was even a 10 year event, never mind a 50/100 year event.

I've heard local people say that they've never seen anything like it in their lifetime. Make of that what you will.

Flibbles

Penfailed wrote: »

I've heard local people say that they've never seen anything like it in their lifetime. Make of that what you will.

I've only lived in this country 5 years and I've seen rain like this here before. Only once, but it's happened. I remember because the mother in law's garden was badly flooded and took ages to dry out again.

kiddums

I've lived here my whole life and I've seen rain like this before, but never in such a short space of time and never after a hot spell like the one we had.

I think it was those factors combining that meant the water systems in the town just couldn't cope.

danniemcq

kiddums wrote: »

I've lived here my whole life and I've seen rain like this before, but never in such a short space of time and never after a hot spell like the one we had.

I think it was those factors combining that meant the water systems in the town just couldn't cope.

agreed, with the crazy hot weather we have had over the last 2-3 weeks the soil in the fields and plains up the mountain top area would have been extremely dry.

This would mean that any water that fell on them wouldn't be absorbed as quickly as normal. The water in effect would roll off it like it would on an area of concrete.

When you look at the amount of rain that fell in such a short period of time the soil had no chance to absorb the water and then in turn become more porus allowing for more water collection.

The water running off all the fields all collected (from what i can tell correct me if i'm wrong) into the tiny brook which runs behind the hospital. This was quickly overwhelmed by the massive volume which led it burst its banks.

Its one of those things that had a number of things had to happen in order to get the result.

IF we hadn't had such a hot few weeks the water would have been able to (mostly) sink into the ground

IF the rainfall was the same amount but over a longer period of time (ie same mm but over a period of 12 hours) the grounds and rivers should have time to remove the danger.

IF the drainage around like previously mentioned on the roads were clear it would allow huge relief (I was passing by the area and water was gushing like a geyser out of the drains as it hit a blockage meaning the water was forced onto the road and area again. (i'll take a photo later to show people what i mean)