LGH A&E flooded!!

Mint Sauce

Flibbles wrote: »

That annoys me far too much.

Back on topic, hopefully this isn't as bad, though it's already raining pretty hard.

Well if its anything like its been in Sligo today it will be. Hopefully the gap takes the sting out of it.

muffler

The band of rain seemed to have been moving from the Southwest in a northerly direction and its just stopped raining here in the twin towns in the last half hour so I would think it will stop in Letterkenny shortly...hopefully

icescreamqueen

There has been torrential rain down here in the last hour. Is Letterkenny any better? I'm just hoping the hospital can stay dry for a while. It's awful when you're nervous about whether an essential service can stay open or not.

Maldesu

No rain here in LK now, but there was for a good 2 hours or more not long ago

danniemcq

LK has been dry for the last 20 mins or so but it was horrible around 5, after walking home from work i think i was drier when I had the shower after

I think the worst is over for now though

http://www.accuweather.com/en/ie/national/weather-radar

Curly Judge

kiddums wrote: »

I've lived here my whole life and I've seen rain like this before, but never in such a short space of time and never after a hot spell like the one we had.

I think it was those factors combining that meant the water systems in the town just couldn't cope.

If engineers and architects can't design and construct buildings,[particularly hospitals], properly then what is the point of having them?
At the end of the day someone in the system fell down on the job.
It's all very well saying we should wait for the outcome of the investigation, [there is going to be an investigation, isn't there?] but do we know who is going to carry it out?
Will they stuff it with their own cronies as they tried to do in Galway with the Savita case?
What's the betting on a "systems failure" if they can't come up with a better excuse?
<SNIP>


Mod edit; warning given

homer simpson

Some people really let their imaginations really run wild!

Noreen1

Curly Judge wrote: »

If engineers and architects can't design and construct buildings,[particularly hospitals], properly then what is the point of having them?
At the end of the day someone in the system fell down on the job.
It's all very well saying we should wait for the outcome of the investigation, [there is going to be an investigation, isn't there?] but do we know who is going to carry it out?
Will they stuff it with their own cronies as they tried to do in Galway with the Savita case?
What's the betting on a "systems failure" if they can't come up with a better excuse?
<SNIP>

<SNIP>

I'm just wondering where else the new A&E could have been built?

Curly Judge

<SNIP>

Mod edit/ 1 week ban applied

danniemcq

Thunder is back, well the lightening is, can just about hear thunder in the distance and dog seems to be chilling out again,

Geez play a quick game of Crusader Kings 2 and this thread explodes as i capture Galway

caustic 1

Thunder here in Twin Towns also, power was off for bit, back now again.

Noreen1

Thunder and lightning in the Falcarragh/Gortahork area, too.

Noreen1

danniemcq wrote: »

Thunder is back, well the lightening is, can just about hear thunder in the distance and dog seems to be chilling out again,

Geez play a quick game of Crusader Kings 2 and this thread explodes as i capture Galway

What did you want to capture Galway for? Sure they're probably getting more rain than we are!:P:D:D

Noreen1

http://donegalnews.com/2013/08/new-e22-million-emergency-department-could-be-demolished/

The flooding crisis at Letterkenny General Hospital, which has left Donegal without an Emergency Department, will cost at least €10 Million to repair, the Donegal News can reveal.
The possibility of the new Emergency building and sections of the older hospital having to be demolished could lead to multiples of that cost.

Eh?
I wonder what this is based on?
I hadn't heard that the engineers report had been completed, and even if it were, and there was a continued flood risk - surely it would be cheaper to drain the stream (and other surface water) to the Swilly?
Even if new drains had to be dug - €24 Million is a lot of drainage!

Critical facilities such as X-ray and CT scanners have been destroyed

Looks like that CT scanner is definitely dead, then.
It's a real shame. So much fundraising went on to allow the purchase of that scanner, and, if memory serves me right, even after it was purchased, management and staff at LGH had a real struggle to get the HSE to pay for staff to allow it to be used!

There was a report on the RTE news channel this evening, showing a panel being put on the walls of the corridor where the cardiology dept is located (just above the old A&E) to "decontaminate" the area, and allow it to be safely used after a new floor is laid.

That seems kind of strange if they plan to demolish it?

And if they do demolish the old hospital, and the new A&E - where are they going to find room to rebuild? Unless they go multi-storey on the old hospital site?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the management meetings atm!

Senna

Noreen1 wrote: »

I hadn't heard that the engineers report had been completed, and even if it were, and there was a continued flood risk - surely it would be cheaper to drain the stream (and other surface water) to the Swilly?
Even if new drains had to be dug - €24 Million is a lot of drainage!

I think this related to how badly the buildings are contaminated, rather than future risk of flooding. Was it in this thread or elsewhere that someone said there was asbestos in the old A&E building and that could mean the building needs to be demolished, seen the asbestos could be disturbed in the clean up process.
It's possible that the sewage got to places that cant be decontaminated, maybe to demolish it is the only option. I could definitely see the old A&E being demolished, it would be a complete disaster if the new wing had to go too, but hopefully this is just speculation and it wont come to that.

salonfire

The outlet of the culvert looks relatively narrow with fine mesh. Reports in the paper that it was blocked with a gas bottle and other crap.

They had their warning in 2011 when it flooded first. The manager of LGH should go. It happened on his watch and the damage and rebuilding costs will run into tens of millions. Is there no accountability in the HSE at all?

Maldesu

salonfire wrote: »

The manager of LGH should go. It happened on his watch and the damage and rebuilding costs will run into tens of millions. Is there no accountability in the HSE at all?

I'm not sure how the manager is responsible for the flooding. He wasn't the one who designed the place. Even aware of the flooding from before I doubt it was within his power to stop construction.

Noreen1

Senna wrote: »

I think this related to how badly the buildings are contaminated, rather than future risk of flooding. Was it in this thread or elsewhere that someone said there was asbestos in the old A&E building and that could mean the building needs to be demolished, seen the asbestos could be disturbed in the clean up process.
It's possible that the sewage got to places that cant be decontaminated, maybe to demolish it is the only option. I could definitely see the old A&E being demolished, it would be a complete disaster if the new wing had to go too, but hopefully this is just speculation and it wont come to that.

I had heard about the asbestos (allegedly) in the old building.
ie. I had heard there was a strong possibility that there was asbestos there, because it was built in the 60s, though no definite confirmation. It does seem believable, though.

The sewage raises questions, for me.

No matter which photos I look at, of waterlines etc., I can't see the floodwater at a height where it was above the levels of the actual toilets. Which still begs the question (for me) - how did floodwater get contaminated by sewage?

I'd have thought the sewage should be on a different, enclosed, drainage system?
I haven't a clue about commercial or public buildings, but I do remember some very definite specifications from when the OH and I were designing and building our own house.
I can understand how sewage can contaminate floodwater in low-lying areas - but I'm puzzled how it can happen that far above water level?

On the one hand, it would be a disaster if the new wing had to be demolished.
On the other - there are advantages, if they decided to build multi-storey on the site of the old building.
For one thing, it would allow for future expansion, which will eventually be needed. Another advantage would be room for car-parking, which was pretty dire before the new A&E was built, and is still insufficient, at times.
Then there's the issue of considering whether or not to put valuable diagnostic equipment at ground level, or how that (and the siting of the entrance door) could be incorporated into a new design.

salonfire wrote: »

The outlet of the culvert looks relatively narrow with fine mesh. Reports in the paper that it was blocked with a gas bottle and other crap.

They had their warning in 2011 when it flooded first. The manager of LGH should go. It happened on his watch and the damage and rebuilding costs will run into tens of millions. Is there no accountability in the HSE at all?

That outlet looks to be at least a metre, if not more? Just trying to guess from the widest part of the outlet, vs the height of the men in the background.

As to the manager I'd hold fire on that, just as I did on the engineers/architects.
In fairness. I doubt he could anticipate that someone was going to dispose of a gas bottle in that way!

salonfire

They knew it was liable to flood.

If that stream was not maintained and cleaned regularly, then yes, I would hold the manager responsible.

These people are paid by the hundreds of thousands to run the hospital. That includes basic maintenance. Nobody should be allowed to just shrug their shoulders and say 'not my job' in the wake of such destruction.

From the screenshot, it looks like it would take away a lot of water. I bet it did not look like that last Friday.

I saw the orange digger up on that site last week. I said to myself, I bet it is cleaning out the drain for the first time in years.
What was a digger doing up on the drain right after it happened? If the drain was kept clear and maintained, what work would the digger need to do?


Engineers are not responsible if maintenance and groundskeeping let drains overgrow and block up with rubbish. It needs to be cleaned and maintained regularly.

Irish people in general are far too placid and willing to let things go when extremely well paid staff in the civil service and government screw up time after time.

Noreen1

salonfire wrote: »

They knew it was liable to flood.

If that stream was not maintained and cleaned regularly, then yes, I would hold the manager responsible.

These people are paid by the hundreds of thousands to run the hospital. That includes basic maintenance. Nobody should be allowed to just shrug their shoulders and say 'not my job' in the wake of such destruction.

From the screenshot, it looks like it would take away a lot of water. I bet it did not look like that last Friday.

I saw the orange digger up on that site last week. I said to myself, I bet it is cleaning out the drain for the first time in years.
What was a digger doing up on the drain right after it happened? If the drain was kept clear and maintained, what work would the digger need to do?


Engineers are not responsible if maintenance and groundskeeping let drains overgrow and block up with rubbish. It needs to be cleaned and maintained regularly.

Irish people in general are far too placid and willing to let things go when extremely well paid staff in the civil service and government screw up time after time.

If is the operative word, though!
I don't know if the drains were maintained regularly, or not.

I also suspect that the engineers report would have necessitated checking that culvert, though I'm not sure, not being an engineer!

Right now, though - if I were willing to lay responsibility for the whole debacle at anyone's door (which I'm not, until all the facts are known) - I'd be pointing fairly firmly at the moron that blocked the culvert with a tank of gas! That's wanton vandalism, at best!

You seem to think that I'm making excuses for people. I'm not.
I use the hospital regularly, so I'm very frustrated that it's not available.

That doesn't mean that I'm willing to punish people who aren't guilty of wrongdoing - so, I'll wait for the full facts to emerge!

Maldesu

Noreen1 wrote: »

Right now, though - if I were willing to lay responsibility for the whole debacle at anyone's door (which I'm not, until all the facts are known) - I'd be pointing fairly firmly at the moron that blocked the culvert with a tank of gas! That's wanton vandalism, at best!

What's with this gas can anyway? How big was it and was it there before the flood or did it come down with the water? Could have easily come down when the bank collapsed if it had been dumped above the drain.

muffler

Maldesu wrote: »

What's with this gas can anyway? How big was it and was it there before the flood or did it come down with the water? Could have easily come down when the bank collapsed if it had been dumped above the drain.

And that is why there are 2 investigations ongoing (possibly complete by now) to determine the facts.

Mint Sauce

Just watched the report from last nights 9pm news.

A few weeks before a temporary A&E is up and running??

Fixing a skin to the contaminated walls?

Not to mention all the reports about engineering issues, the stream behind the hospital, a blocked hatch, although for all we know the excessive rain water could have carried these debries.

Now I understand hospital staff are being considered to being relocated to Altnagalvin to help with the extra demand there. But for Nurses to work there, they need to be registered with a UK or NI nursing board, this will probably take time as well.

The hospital is also having to depend on outside catering amoungst other things, its actually frightning to think, how much this could eventually cost, not just in terms of money, but time, jobs, and worse of all, the well being of the local population.

mistermouse

Temporary A&E Signs are now in place so I assume it should be operational over the weekend. Its signed to the front left of the 80's block near the front entrance

Cant imagine it being too big. Hopefully people will be more responsible especially when out at night so as not to need A&E without good cause

Noreen1

mistermouse wrote: »

Temporary A&E Signs are now in place so I assume it should be operational over the weekend. Its signed to the front left of the 80's block near the front entrance

Cant imagine it being too big. Hopefully people will be more responsible especially when out at night so as not to need A&E without good cause

So, the day wards/oncology area?

It's probably bigger than the old A&E in terms of a waiting area - though I don't know how they're going to manage for wards.
I know there are a couple of curtained off wards, a la the old A&E, in the day surgery area, apart from that, it's pretty much offices, with some diagnostic facilities - or at least it was the last time I was there!

I can't see it being anything other than totally inadequate, t.b.h, though at least the chairs in the waiting area aren't all metal!

homer simpson

Noreen1 wrote: »

So, the day wards/oncology area?

It's probably bigger than the old A&E in terms of a waiting area - though I don't know how they're going to manage for wards.
I know there are a couple of curtained off wards, a la the old A&E, in the day surgery area, apart from that, it's pretty much offices, with some diagnostic facilities - or at least it was the last time I was there!

I can't see it being anything other than totally inadequate, t.b.h, though at least the chairs in the waiting area aren't all metal!

Would you rather that or no A&E ? They are doing their best and need to be given some credit for that.

echo beach

A temporary A+E should be able to manage patients who need treatment and can then be sent home but the biggest part of the work in an emergency department is patents who have to be admitted and if there aren't beds with all the necessary backup facilities then they will still have to be referred to other hospitals.
A limited A+E service is better than none. You have to start somewhere and build up.

Noreen1

homer simpson wrote: »

Would you rather that or no A&E ? They are doing their best and need to be given some credit for that.

That wasn't a criticism. More a statement of fact.
The new A&E had 38 or 39 beds, (I think!) - and it was busy!
I can't see how they could get that many beds into the day care facility - so it's going to be inadequate. That's not a criticism of the staff (who, by the way, I have sympathised with, and defended, on more than one occasion) - it's just the way it is!

I'm willing to bet the staff themselves think it's inadequate, too!

Mint Sauce

Genuine question. Did them 38/39 beds includ the medical assessment unit? Was that affected by the floods?

The old A&E only had from memory only had 5 or 6 bays, a couple of treatment rooms, and the two bed trauma room.

Day services from memory had a couple of rooms used for procedures, a 2 or 3 bed recovery room, and the pre and post op room which had room for 7 or 8 bays.

If this is what they are planning to use, whilst not ideal it would be close to what they had before, but would have a considerable affect on day services.

Noreen1

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Genuine question. Did them 38/39 beds includ the medical assessment unit? Was that affected by the floods?

The old A&E only had from memory only had 5 or 6 bays, a couple of treatment rooms, and the two bed trauma room.

Day services from memory had a couple of rooms used for procedures, a 2 or 3 bed recovery room, and the pre and post op room which had room for 7 or 8 bays.

If this is what they are planning to use, whilst not ideal it would be close to what they had before, but would have a considerable affect on day services.

I think it includes an 11 bed Medical assessment unit, though I'm open to correction.

I read in one of the papers today that A&E is still only available to cope with non-emergency referrals from NowDoc.
Emergency patients are still being advised to dial 911 and ask for an ambulance.
Precisely how the public are meant to assess whether or not their case would be regarded as an emergency, I honestly do not know - but I'm genuinely concerned that some patients who would otherwise go straight to A&E will waste valuable time trying to find out what exactly they should do, since media coverage of the event is so poor.

One way or the other, both Nowdoc and the 911 service are going to be under a serious amount of pressure.

The other question I would have, is about staff levels.

I know of someone who was called in to do voluntary work, though her contract with the HSE has expired.
I made me wonder how the hospital is supposed to supply extra staff for Sligo and Altnagelvin, together with the various clinics that have been outsourced to Donegal, Nowdoc, etc.

I can't help wondering whether those who control the purse strings have any idea just how much pressure the staff are under, or care what happens to the patients who depend on the hospital...