Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

Grandeeod

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Only Luas/Dublin Bus tickets!



I say it going be a long strike as drivers will not stop until its sorted!

Look at July 1984, Phibsboro Garage was on for months (that was pre Dublin Bus)

Still CIE. You can change the name to DB, but it didn't change that much.

Always number 1

I don't agree with the strikes and I'm not getting into a big argument over who is wrong or right in this but as a tax payer and commuter I am baffled as to how the Government can justify spending €368 million on the Luas Cross City but they cannot give Dublin Bus a paltry €11.7 million to sort this out.
More people are being inconvenienced by the Dublin Bus strike than will benefit from the Luas Cross City. Its not rocket science..

mickydoomsux

Always number 1 wrote: »

I don't agree with the strikes and I'm not getting into a big argument over who is wrong or right in this but as a tax payer and commuter I am baffled as to how the Government can justify spending €368 million on the Luas Cross City but they cannot give Dublin Bus a paltry €11.7 million to sort this out.
More people are being inconvenienced by the Dublin Bus strike than will benefit from the Luas Cross City. Its not rocket science..

They could easily give them the money but it suits both the government and the company much better to take back everything that was gained by employees over the past 10-15 years. In another few years when things pick up again they can then give them back what they already have now and act like they are doing them a favour.

miller50841

mickydoomsux wrote: »

They could easily give them the money but it suits both the government and the company much better to take back everything that was gained by employees over the past 10-15 years. In another few years when things pick up again they can then give them back what they already have now and act like they are doing them a favour.

The main problem is they will never give back what is taken away.

They are happy enough to let it run into the ground.

Sure they were talking of privatizing it over the last 40 years.

Hilly Bill

They have already started . Balfour have already a foot in the door.

Stephen P

Didn't think the luas would cover it. Going to be fun getting a luas on Tuesday morning if the strike isn't resolved

Pablo Sanchez

Why are Dublin Bus drivers paid so much in the first place?

In a more expensive city, London, bus drivers can earn a max of £26,000 per year (including overtime) or just under €30,000,

DB drivers have a core pay of €40,000.

We pay extra money for very early work, late work and weekend work. After training as an Arriva London Bus Driver, you could earn up to £500 per week (with overtime).

The company said that bus drivers’ core pay of around €40,000 per annum would not be cut while management and executives faced pay cuts of 3 per cent to 5 per cent. She also said that only about 25 per cent of drivers opted for overtime.

Source:
http://www.arrivalondon.com/driver_criteria
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bus-strike-looks-set-to-continue-tomorrow-1.1484187?page=2

Gatling

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its part theirs and its what they are trying to do. If the employees except these cuts then the government will force Dublin bus to make more cuts next year and every year because they got away with it twice.
At least these employees have a back bone and actually stand up to the government unlike some people who's only way of voicing their concern is on internet forums and will accept anything without actually doing something about it.

What i find strange is that you are giving out about the strike being stupid and unwanted but want the company to fold which will still lead to no buses on the road .

That preaching crap is getting old ,

We pay there nice cushy wages ,

We've all had cut backs we've all had to make sacrifices ,

Time for them to grow up

AlekSmart

Always number 1 wrote: »

I don't agree with the strikes and I'm not getting into a big argument over who is wrong or right in this but as a tax payer and commuter I am baffled as to how the Government can justify spending €368 million on the Luas Cross City but they cannot give Dublin Bus a paltry €11.7 million to sort this out.
More people are being inconvenienced by the Dublin Bus strike than will benefit from the Luas Cross City. Its not rocket science..

AN1 don't be shy with the arguing...it's what makes this place what it is !!

The spending of the €368,000,000 is justifiable enough to me,but if it continues to propogate haphazard Public Transport planning then yes it is a questionable.....for example nobody at Decision Making level yet comprehends that at it's simplest Integrated Ticketing in places like Reims in France means a single €3.50 ticket will buy you a 24 hr Bus/Tram ticket,whilst a single Bus/Tram journey will cost ya €1.30.

Wading through the various Fare Structures to be found in Dublin alone would droop the eyelids of the droopiest....

Equally with €11.7 Million now apparently accepted as the magic figure required by Dublin Bus.

I would suggest that "Giving" it to Dublin Bus to "sort-out" the dispute would in fact be counterproductive.

I am far more concerned that nobody,as yet,appears to have enquired as to whether BAC Management were asked to submit any alternatives to Service Reductions and the associated front-line staff costs ?

For example,the many and varied boards posts regarding the lack of a night-bus service alone should be provoking a bit of twitching in a savvy Chief Executives head....ie: Significant number of posts from people enquiring about late-night bus services whilst my company has Buses,Drivers,agreements,backup staff,infrastructure...yet the relationship between this requirement and the means to satisfy it isn't apparent...????

Instead we see the everybody involved being expected to get-on-message about the dreadfullness of our economic situation,as if to mirror the policy of the country in general thus confirming the accuracy of Government Austerity policies.

Personally I believe their IS an alternative route to securing this €11.7 Million and it is to be gained through expansion,improvement and innovation...much of which is latent within Dublin Bus,particularly since the NTA entered the fray and embarked on the implementation of it's (peculiar) version of Integrated Ticketing.

AlekSmart

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Why are Dublin Bus drivers paid so much in the first place?

In a more expensive city, London,bus drivers can earn a max of £26,000 per year (including overtime) or just under €30,000,

DB drivers have a core pay of €40,000.

Source:
http://www.arrivalondon.com/driver_criteria
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-bus-strike-looks-set-to-continue-tomorrow-1.1484187?page=2

You show me yours n' I'll show you mine style comparisons,particularly in the UK context are interesting,but far from relevant given the respectively different arrangements which govern life in both countries.

London Bus Companies,for example,generally have a wage scale of between 4 and 7 years,and can often adjust their wage rates depending upon the level of Driver shortages being experienced in their areas of operation.

High Staff Turnover (Attrition Rate) remains a significant problem for all London operators,as the reality of working within a 24 hour service regime hits home.

A clearer example may possibly be gleaned here...

http://busdriving.weebly.com/wages-and-benefits.html

I would suggest the year 6 of the London General/Central scale is most appropriate,particularly as the BAC scale is shorter.

Year one rate: £10.64 per hour (£404.53 a week)
Year two rate: £11.15 per hour (423.79 a week)
Year three rate: £11.65 per hour (£443.05 a week)
Year four rate: £12.16 per hour (462.32 a week)
Year five rate: £12.67 per hour (£481.58 a week)
Year six rate: £13.43 per hour (£510.71 a week)

It is also worth noting the following in relation to the rates of pay.....

These are based as MINIMUM earnings for completing the five allocated duties in a week. In addition, certain duties are scheduled beyond the guaranteed 38 hour week and there are also additional payments when you work "spreadover" duties (split shifts).

The BAC €40,000 figure is not the basic rate as it includes the Shift Allowance element.

The Basic rate comes in at c. €33,000.

There is some quite pertinent,and interesting background information on the wider issue of the UK PT model here...

http://www.speakerschair.com/post/a-road-to-nowhere-failures-of-transport-privatisation

The private bus operators receive more than one third of their income from the public purse. In 2011/12 Britain’s bus bosses raked in total revenue of £5.425 million of which only £3.005 million came from fares. The rest came from local councils and government; £0.994 million gross public transport support; £0.995 million concessionary fares; and £0.430 million Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG).

The biggest losers were those who work in the bus industry. Bus drivers hourly wage ranked 7% above the average blue collar worker before 1986 but within 10 years had fallen 14% below. Intense competition at a time of high unemployment and falling passenger revenues led to unrelenting demands for pay cuts, longer hours, reduced pensions and cuts to sick pay and other conditions. Strong union fightbacks since have recovered much but not all of these losses.

Less than a year ago the photo's from Arriva's London Garages bore a similarity to Dublin Bus Garages today....

http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/29596/Arriva+bus+drivers+strike+for+pay+rise+in+north+London

The 24 hour strike by bus workers affected Arriva garages across north London. It was sparked by a decision by Arriva to refuse workers a pay rise this year—despite bumper profits.

If anything good can come from the current dispute,it may be the questioning of why Government Policy here appears to be firmly rooted in actively discouraging innovation or forward thinking within the publicly owned CIE Group,yet expecting the private sector to offer a bargain basement alternative,presumably by encouraging that sector to bargain basement it,regarding wage rates.

It may indeed represent Public Transport strategy of a fashion,however whether it is a universally beneficial one,or not,remains open to conjecture ?

Victor

Side discussion on Irish Rail personnel management move here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057007860

Can we keep to the topic at hand please?

Moderator

ArmaniJeanss

Always number 1 wrote: »

I don't agree with the strikes and I'm not getting into a big argument over who is wrong or right in this but as a tax payer and commuter I am baffled as to how the Government can justify spending €368 million on the Luas Cross City but they cannot give Dublin Bus a paltry €11.7 million to sort this out.
More people are being inconvenienced by the Dublin Bus strike than will benefit from the Luas Cross City. Its not rocket science..

Well the €368M investment is over X years (5 I think) and the project itself gives a certain return each year once its complete. And the €11.7M isn't a once off payment, its a saving thats needed every year for the foreseeable future. So to do a €368M v €11.7M comparison isn't really accurate.

But ultimately its just a bad idea to go down the route of stopping major infrastructure projects whilst transferring the money to placate problems in existing systems. Because you just end up not solving the existing problems whilst burning a heap of money.

The merits or otherwise of LuasBXD are separate from the merits of the current DublinBus situation.

Get Real

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Getting abuse thrown at you every day is not cushy.

Its not them that needs to grow up.

What cut backs have you had and what sacrifices?

Again, as i said to another poster, can you give me an example of a private company, where there are many graduates, personable people, people with trades, just as qualified and educated as DB drivers, that are seeing pay increases even when their company is making profit?

There are thousands of equaully qualified people earining minimum wage, with no benefits, who are working for companies that are manking money,

DB are losing money.

It was revealed tonight, as part of the agreement, management at higher level will have their pay cut. Bus drivers will not have their core pay cut. Premium, shift and sunday payments (which many equally qualified people don't receive) will be reduced, but only for 19 months.

So what exactly is the reason for strike, when people just as qualified, or even more so, were'nt "lucky" enough to find a well paid, relatively stable job with benefits are working for minimum wage when DB employees are striking when their employer is losing money?

As you said, getting abuse thrown at you every day is not cushy, but it makes it that bit more bearable while you work for a state subsidised company, that pays a salary, gives you the priveledge of being unionised without fear of bullying while others just as qualified work hour to hour in the service industry taking abuse for a much much lower wage. I support DB and their right to strike, but whats your answer for the others? Why are you making DB out to be the only victims?

dowlingm

I'd just like to clarify one thing first - my post about zero hour contracts was not (as some seem to think) about giving DB workers everything they want, but rather about buying the notion that "everyone partied" and thus nobody can have anything nice any more, even basic employment protection.

As I have pointed out in the past, even if privatisation was introduced to CIE companies there are obligations to the retired workers that someone is going to have to pick up the tab for.

I also endorse and add what AlekSmart says a few posts above about attrition. It will do DB no good to reduce conditions of employment to the point where people join DB for training and then jump to the privates who in addition to not having the legacy costs of retirees on defined benefit schemes will not need much of a training budget either.

It's also worth noting that while London is indeed an expensive city there are certain things UK workers take for granted like medical care at comparatively little expense compared to Irish costs of GPs and prescriptions, and they pay lower VAT.

DB is a leaner company than it used to be and overmanning is a shadow of its former self - which is not to say there aren't things which could be different but it is churlish to suggest that this is our parents generation's CIE. Much of this crisis has been manufactured by a government desperate to shove support for public transport off its budget and onto the public and the workers in lieu of a proper discussion on how much society is willing to pay for the benefit of not having our cities jammed with cars looking for spaces to park.

alphamule

What are they doing with all the unclaimed change??

eire-kp

So if you had to give a good guess what's the chances of this dragging on until next Friday? Or should I say IE services being affected by then?

Bullseye1

Motor Tax increases in recent budgets along with ever increasing fuel costs made up of mostly government VAT and duty along with the loss making and ineffective public transport makes a mockery of Government policy. They are quite simply incapable of running public transport.

markpb

Always number 1 wrote: »

I am baffled as to how the Government can justify spending €368 million on the Luas Cross City but they cannot give Dublin Bus a paltry €11.7 million to sort this out.

While this strike might be in response to the company trying to reduce pay, it's not very long since we saw public sector unions protesting because they wanted better pay. If the government throws money at DB just because the unions went on strike, it may encourage the unions to decide next year that a bit of a pay rise would be nice. People on this thread have said the same thing from the other viewpoint - if we don't strike, they'll be back next year for more cuts.

Secondly, compare it to your own personal budget. If you were spending more than you earned, would you borrow money to make up the difference? Not if you're wise, you'd cut your costs instead. That's what DB and the government are doing. On the other hand, would you borrow money to invest in your long term future and make you more attractive to future employers? Yes. This is what the NTA are doing by building Luas cross city.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

The BAC €40,000 figure is not the basic rate as it includes the Shift Allowance element.

But we all know that the number of allowances, bonuses and extras that Dublin Bus get, are more than your average company, since core pay isn't being touched in these changes, and what seem on the face of it are quite small changes to perks, bonuses and allowances and overtime rates, If people are losing thousands when core pay isn't being touched, then they must be taking home a lot of bonuses per month on a regular basis, else they wouldn't be losing much since by the unions own admission, core pay is untouched.

http://www.speakerschair.com/post/a-road-to-nowhere-failures-of-transport-privatisation

http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/29596/Arriva+bus+drivers+strike+for+pay+rise+in+north+London

Those are merely opinion based articles on the system, just as you can find an article to say that, and I'm sure there are plenty of them, there are plenty on the other side which say the opposite about how things are much better now,, since there are two sides to every debate, nobody is right or wrong as such, but there are differing opinions

If anything good can come from the current dispute,it may be the questioning of why Government Policy here appears to be firmly rooted in actively discouraging innovation or forward thinking within the publicly owned CIE Group,yet expecting the private sector to offer a bargain basement alternative,presumably by encouraging that sector to bargain basement it,regarding wage rates.

Nobody asked for bargain basement pay rates and of course, that is the thing with CIE, anything bad that happens is always somebody elses fault, and anything good that happens is always down to them. Management in the company have a lot to answer for and of course there are things to be improved int he way transport are run in this country, but the NTA over the past few years has been much better than what went before it as far as the customers are concerned, although still not ideal, sorry if it angers you that they won't just sign blank cheques to the company anymore.

dowlingm wrote: »

I also endorse and add what AlekSmart says a few posts above about attrition. It will do DB no good to reduce conditions of employment to the point where people join DB for training and then jump to the privates who in addition to not having the legacy costs of retirees on defined benefit schemes will not need much of a training budget either.

I'm not asking for Dublin Bus to reduce the wages to below what private operators offer, I just believe that there has to be a reduction in the payroll to what it is at now, but it is simply not sustainable to carry on paying the going rates that are being paid at present. A monopoly is never ever efficient when it comes to costs and pay.

It's also worth noting that while London is indeed an expensive city there are certain things UK workers take for granted like medical care at comparatively little expense compared to Irish costs of GPs and prescriptions, and they pay lower VAT.

Of course, there is a big difference in the cost of healthcare in the two countries, although how long that will be the case remains to be seen when in the UK certain people would like to change that, but the problem is if the government hand more money to one part of the public sector, they have to cut back somewhere else. If there was less spending in other areas maybe we'd have more to spend on healthcare here, but it's all if's but's and maybe's so we'll never know, but the health system under the Fianna Fail years, shows that merely throwing money at something won't fix it, if you don't sort out the underlying problem which is making the system inefficient and hemorrhaging money rather than solving the problems.

DB is a leaner company than it used to be and overmanning is a shadow of its former self - which is not to say there aren't things which could be different but it is churlish to suggest that this is our parents generation's CIE.

There have been improvements in recent years, let that be no doubt and it's welcome to see them. But there still are improvements that need to be made and the cost base in the company is still far too high, even if we have seen some improvements in that in recent years, all sectors of the company, including management, need to know that carrying on as is, is simply not possible.

Much of this crisis has been manufactured by a government desperate to shove support for public transport off its budget and onto the public and the workers in lieu of a proper discussion on how much society is willing to pay for the benefit of not having our cities jammed with cars looking for spaces to park.

Not really, as stated earlier before, subsidy was cut because Dublin Bus cut the amount of work it did, if you are contracted to provide x routes and x buses per day, and you make big cuts to that, then of course you will get paid less, that happens in any industry and is not just related to public transport.

markpb wrote: »

While this strike might be in response to the company trying to reduce pay, it's not very long since we saw public sector unions protesting because they wanted better pay. If the government throws money at DB just because the unions went on strike, it may encourage the unions to decide next year that a bit of a pay rise would be nice.

Bingo.

Exactly what happens, if a company gets used to being handed out money at every time they are losing money, there is no incentive for them to make sure that the company is run in a viable way if they know at the end of the day, no matter what happens, the taxpayers will pick up the tab. The fact is if the government gives any money in such cases, the company and the staff will always use this to their advantage in the future, knowing that they can always get their own way any time a dispute starts. And we just go round and round in circles, this s what happened in the FF years, and in a large part is why we are where we are now, people are simply used to striking, being handed yet more taxpayers money and getting their own way. It's fantastic we finally have a minister who will not allow this to happen.

Secondly, compare it to your own personal budget. If you were spending more than you earned, would you borrow money to make up the difference? Not if you're wise, you'd cut your costs instead. That's what DB and the government are doing. On the other hand, would you borrow money to invest in your long term future and make you more attractive to future employers? Yes. This is what the NTA are doing by building Luas cross city.

All of this is very sensible in the overall scheme of things if you ask me. If every time you lose money you just borrow more and keep spending then you just make the problems worse, since you're not addressing the underlying causes. It's simple economics at the end of the day in my view, but it seems people in the public sector always expect to be bailed out by others, rather than getting their own ship in order.

The Cross City LUAS project is one of the really positive things to happen here in the last few years, and badly needs to be built. It should have been there for a start and once it is built and operating, it will repay that investment back by huge amounts, and even comparing it to the losses of Dublin Bus and saying how can they afford one or not the other is simply in my view not a valid point, since as the above poster says, they are vastly different things.

Those in Dublin Bus forget also that in 2008 Dublin Bus BOUGHT more buses itself out of it's own money, 50 VG's and 50 EV's. In 2012 and 2013, whilst subsidy is lower than these years after Dublin Bus cut the number of routes and buses it operates by a decent chunk in 2008 Dublin Bus was buying it's own vehicles, in 2012/2013, the state has bought them 80 vehicles a year, which Dublin Bus no longer had to fund out of their own money, like when they got the higher subsidy. So you need to include this in the subsidy calculations too, since this meant that in 2012, they were being handed assets in 2008 that they would have to pay for.

EB_2013

If Dublin Bus is already in trouble how long could it sustain losing €600k per weekday for?

HydeRoad

If Dublin Bus reduced their ridiculously long dwell time at bus stops due to an archaic fare collection system, the amount of vehicles, staff and congestion they would save would more than pay back the deficit, and greatly assist everyone else's use of the city as well.

If Dublin Bus were more proactive about demanding proper street infrastructure, including properly designed bus lanes, properly designed junctions, properly designed cycle lanes, less axle-breaking speed bumps on busy bus corridors, and more due traffic priority, they would also recoup most or all of their deficit, as well as greatly increasing health and safety for everyone.

If Dublin Bus sold off some of their enormous and unsightly garaging depots around the city centre area, and concentrated on small, local garaging yards at the outer end of each bus route, and one or two smaller central maintenance garages, they would save money, and cut down on tons of wasteful dead mileage, and wasted staff hours operating dead trips.

There is so much that is wrong with Dublin's bus network, and so much that could be done to improve it, and make it more efficient, that it is a crying shame that instead we have strikes so that staff can maintain unsustainable demands while their employer remains in a stagnant, inefficient operating frame of mind.

At all levels in the company, there are unsuitable people who cannot be got rid of, and good people who are held back. As usual, in Ireland, the people who could actually do the thing right, and make a difference, are not wanted.

Renn

Chances of this being resolved by tomorrow?

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is also worth noting the following in relation to the rates of pay.....



The BAC €40,000 figure is not the basic rate as it includes the Shift Allowance element.

The Basic rate comes in at c. €33,000.

C'mon Alek, no games , in any given week and excluding overtime, how many drivers in DB are earning basic pay?

Gatling

What's the chances the strike will last until the new school term starts ,

JTMan

Renn wrote: »

Chances of this being resolved by tomorrow?

Crystal ball time, I reckon ...
Strike goes ahead tomorrow, minister intervenes tomorrow afternoon, talks begin in the evening, talks go into the small hours and strike called off on Wednesday.

skimpydoo

Renn wrote: »

Chances of this being resolved by tomorrow?

Slim and none.

ninebeanrows

This will be resolved by next Monday for sure, but I can see it dragging out till then.

It's an awful headache for the many. I really don't know if the Luas and particularly DART can cope with the extra capacity that will be needed tomorrow, will they continue to operate 4 carriage darts etc? It will be pure chaos in the morning when dart stations have twice as many people showing up for already packed DARTs

strandroad

Weathercheck wrote: »

It's an awful headache for the many. I really don't know if the Luas and particularly DART can cope with the extra capacity that will be needed tomorrow, will they continue to operate 4 carriage darts etc? It will be pure chaos in the morning when dart stations have twice as many people showing up for already packed DARTs

In my company people are getting organised on the intranet - carpooling, bike lending etc. I don't see any voices supporting drivers but then we are a private company and can understand what loss making means.

miller50841

mhge wrote: »

In my company people are getting organised on the intranet - carpooling, bike lending etc. I don't see any voices supporting drivers but then we are a private company and can understand what loss making means.

If the strike continues then Darts and all trains will stop as they will back up their sister company.

devnull

They seem to be sister companies when it suits them, but not sister companies when it does not.