Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

strandroad

miller50841 wrote: »

If the strike continues then Darts and all trains will stop as they will back up their sister company.

Yeah, that's why I don't mention them.

homerjay2005

what is stopping Dublin Bus in making these striking staff redundant and looking to replace them? surely if the company is losing so much money, there will come a time when they have to shut up shop and start again.

if the drivers are not happy, they should work elsewhere and stop holding the City to randsom.

n97 mini

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what is stopping Dublin Bus in making these striking staff redundant and looking to replace them? surely if the company is losing so much money, there will come a time when they have to shut up shop and start again.

I'd imagine the rest of CIE would be out on strike, followed by the public sector.

homerjay2005

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd imagine the rest of CIE would be out on strike, followed by the public sector.

off with them. its time to totally overhaul the union set up in this country, why not do it now?

if people dont get paid....they will soon cop the f8ck on.

i cant imagine too many people who need public transport to get to work, being too supportive.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Does this mean I can drive in the bus lane until the strike is over? :P

n97 mini

homerjay2005 wrote: »

off with them. its time to totally overhaul the union set up in this country, why not do it now?

While I agree with that, the way to do it is divide and conquer, i.e. privatise bit by bit, not all out war.

miller50841

homerjay2005 wrote: »

what is stopping Dublin Bus in making these striking staff redundant and looking to replace them? surely if the company is losing so much money, there will come a time when they have to shut up shop and start again.

if the drivers are not happy, they should work elsewhere and stop holding the City to randsom.

If they shut up shop due to all health and safety and due to any serious crash or deaths caused previously has the company scared as to let in a Driver who has a licence suiatable will still have to be trained up to the high standards that all db Drivers are brought up to.

So if they did shut up shop they would have to do recruitment, training, route training, working condition amendments and so on so when you look into it it just isn't as easy as some like to think it would be.

Would you be happy some guy just came over from some other country and jumped straight into the seat and has anywhere up to or over 124 peoples lives in their hands. I wouldn't feel to good because they wouldn't have the experience and I can bet there would be a huge amount more deaths and serious injuries on Dublin's roads.

stehyl15

miller50841 wrote: »

If they shut up shop due to all health and safety and due to any serious crash or deaths caused previously has the company scared as to let in a Driver who has a licence suiatable will still have to be trained up to the high standards that all db Drivers are brought up to.

So if they did shut up shop they would have to do recruitment, training, route training, working condition amendments and so on so when you look into it it just isn't as easy as some like to think it would be.

Would you be happy some guy just came over from some other country and jumped straight into the seat and has anywhere up to or over 124 peoples lives in their hands. I wouldn't feel to good because they wouldn't have the experience and I can bet there would be a huge amount more deaths and serious injuries on Dublin's roads.

im sure some of the people on the are former truck drivers that would be more than happy to drive a bus

miller50841

stehyl15 wrote: »

im sure some of the people on the are former truck drivers that would be more than happy to drive a bus

Licence wouldn't be the same and still would need training as I said in last post.

ixoy

Still waiting on some figures here - a poster told us that overtime is hard to get and most drivers only get core pay. Since core pay is unaffected then how bad are these changes really going to hurt?

miller50841

They have been due an increase in wages for many years did not get it, the driving hour's EU directive not fully sure the correct name but they got this in so Driver's were unable to do what use to be the norm where they could finish late and be back in the morning. The part I know is they have to have a minimum 10 hour rest period and only allowed certain time each day for extra work. If a duty is 3hours 30 minutes long and they only can work 3 then they can't do it.
They got all these measures in without compensating the Driver which should have been the case.
They have taken many hits to pay and conditions already and from what I can see have said enough is enough.

If there were no Drivers to do the front line work there would be no management.

Overpaid management should be cut and work on commission as to meet targets and get things working better. Not like the Bankers who get paid huge salaries and bonus payments even though they are still losing money big time.

ArmaniJeanss

miller50841 wrote: »

the driving hour's EU directive not fully sure the correct name but they got this in so Driver's were unable to do what use to be the norm where they could finish late and be back in the morning. The part I know is they have to have a minimum 10 hour rest period and only allowed certain time each day for extra work. If a duty is 3hours 30 minutes long and they only can work 3 then they can't do it.

They got all these measures in without compensating the Driver which should have been the case.

Why do you think they 'should' have got compensation because of the introduction of an EU safety directive? Sounds a lunatic idea to me.

ixoy

miller50841 wrote: »

They have taken many hits to pay and conditions already and from what I can see have said enough is enough.

What hits? What changes to conditions? How does it equate to a change in take home pay? I'm hearing lots of talk about changes to pay, etc but I'm still not seeing figures we can relate to.

The European Safety Directive is in people's interests, especially if that person is carrying a hundred others. A tired worker can be a dangerous liability.

Polar101

mhge wrote: »

In my company people are getting organised on the intranet - carpooling, bike lending etc. I don't see any voices supporting drivers but then we are a private company and can understand what loss making means.

My employer just told me what can be translated to "Tough, it's your responsibility to show up on time". We are a private company too, and don't really care about our employees.

devnull

miller50841 wrote: »

Would you be happy some guy just came over from some other country and jumped straight into the seat and has anywhere up to or over 124 peoples lives in their hands. I wouldn't feel to good because they wouldn't have the experience and I can bet there would be a huge amount more deaths and serious injuries on Dublin's roads.

The maximum legal capacity of a Dublin Bus is not 124, it's lower than that even on the VT's, of which there are not many of them, but any excuse in order to try and exaggerate your point.

I would want anyone who operates Dublin Bus to hold the relevant licenses and also the certificate of professional competence that has been brought in. Have Dublin Bus drivers yet ensure they have all their CPC modules yet?

miller50841 wrote: »

They have been due an increase in wages for many years did not get it, the driving hour's EU directive not fully sure the correct name but they got this in so Driver's were unable to do what use to be the norm where they could finish late and be back in the morning. The part I know is they have to have a minimum 10 hour rest period

I think that drivers needing to have a proper rest period after doing a shift is a very sensible idea, since it will ensure that they are refreshed when they come to driving on the road, as everyone knows that a tired driver is not going to be so alert as one who has had appropriate levels of rest and sleep.

For someone to come on here and say that qualified drivers who hold licenses and certificates of professional competence are dangerous even if they are fully refreshed, just kind of sends out the message that Dublin Bus drivers think they are better than drivers of other companies. I'd rather have a refreshed, qualified certified driver than someone who hasn't had the appropriate rest who is a much greater danger on the road.

Overpaid management should be cut and work on commission as to meet targets and get things working better.

Another unrealistic proposal that both you and me know is not going to happen so it's pointless bringing it up, as I keep saying, no cuts to management will raise anywhere near the amount of money the company needs to. Even if you cut 100 managers by 10k each, it still only raises €1m out of the €11.7m figure that the company is looking for.

Sitec

Are they striking tomorrow?

miller50841

devnull wrote: »

The maximum legal capacity of a Dublin Bus is not 124, it's lower than that even on the VT's, of which there are not many of them, but any excuse in order to try and exaggerate your point.

It actually is 124 it's written in black and white on the vehicle in 2 places.

I would want anyone who operates Dublin Bus to hold the relevant licenses and also the certificate of professional competence that has been brought in. Have Dublin Bus drivers yet ensure they have all their CPC modules yet?

Yes they have all done there cpc but can tell you for a fact if most of the stuff on the course was not common knowledge then I would be worried about who is driving such a vehicle. There needs to be something similar for all other road user's well before putting more expense on well trained workers, truck drivers, bus drivers and so on.



I think that drivers needing to have a proper rest period after doing a shift is a very sensible idea, since it will ensure that they are refreshed when they come to driving on the road, as everyone knows that a tired driver is not going to be so alert as one who has had appropriate levels of rest and sleep.

For someone to come on here and say that qualified drivers who hold licenses and certificates of professional competence are dangerous even if they are fully refreshed, just kind of sends out the message that Dublin Bus drivers think they are better than drivers of other companies. I'd rather have a refreshed, qualified certified driver than someone who hasn't had the appropriate rest who is a much greater danger on the road.


Just because there are set rest periods doesn't ensure that actually works.
What's to stop a driver going out driving for a few hours or staying up late because it's difficult to sleep with shift work messing up your body clock among other things.


Another unrealistic proposal that both you and me know is not going to happen so it's pointless bringing it up, as I keep saying, no cuts to management will raise anywhere near the amount of money the company needs to. Even if you cut 100 managers by 10k each, it still only raises €1m out of the €11.7m figure that the company is looking for.

It's a start and may persuade the rest to follow if thing's seem a bit fairer.

miller50841

Sitec wrote: »

Are they striking tomorrow?

No change so 50/50 at this stage. Keep an eye on news tonight.

I would guess something similar to BE.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

JTMan

The minister can only intervene to force talks, then it will take hours before likely resolution. Too late in the day for that to happen today. Hence, strike will happen tomorrow.

I think both sides want to show resolve and force a day of chaos to bring everyone to the table tomorrow evening.

Bandito909

I love how there is absolutely no mention of the people in Dublin Bus who are being affected the most.

Everyone only thinks of the Driver's being affected, when this is far from the truth.
Driver's get treated like Gods by the company, the ones affected the most are the people behind the scences. The real thankless job of maintenace and servicing of the fleet. The ones you don't see, who make sure that bus is in perfect condition before anyone steps foot on board. A bus driver is not responsible for washing, cleaning, fueling, and maintaining his bus. That's done by a bunch of lads who are getting cut and cut more and more almost every year now. Maintainance and Fleet servicing are the ones who the cuts are most affecting.

A bus can't go out without these behind the scenes people, and I wish this anti-Dublin Bus worker news campain would start reporting on this too.

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

Another unrealistic proposal that both you and me know is not going to happen so it's pointless bringing it up,

Why is it unrealistic? Because it is inconceivable that those at the top of Irish society, those who gained most from the boom, the same people who through incompetence or intentional acts caused the collapse should be expected to relinquish their inflated salaries?

As has already been stated in this thread every excuse in the book has been trotted out to justify the huge salaries of the very people responsible for the current economic crisis being untouchable despite many of these now being paid out of taxpayers pockets.

In the case of Dublin Bus how anyone can justify the dozens of managers on c100K and the chiefs on figures closer to 200k? The joke is you yourself are full of criticism on the running of all the CIE companies, who do you think is running them? These people do not deserve a tenth of their salaries after running the companies into the ground.

devnull wrote: »

as I keep saying, no cuts to management will raise anywhere near the amount of money the company needs to.

And you are wrong. You quote tiny cuts rather than the radical overhaul of management throughout CIE which is the only thing that at this point has a hope of saving the companies long term. Not only are they all vastly overpaid for the abilities they bring to the table there are far too many of them.

A proper cull of all the un-necessary middle management positions and all of the other obsolete legacy backroom areas that contribute SFA to the operation but still maintain numerous highly paid positions along with a 75% cut in salary for senior management with a bonus scheme for them to earn based on the company hitting strict targets would claw back millions not a few hundred thousand.


What most people don't understand is that as well as not wanting to lose wages a huge part of the resistance to the cuts from frontline staff is because they see clearly as day that it is just going to be business as usual for management no matter what.

It is very obvious that they are completely unwilling to reform their own ranks, the gravy train will continue despite the sticking plaster of this round of cuts being only the tip of the iceberg. In another year or so they will be back looking for more cuts from us because the underlying causes of the group's financial problems will not have been dealt with and the cycle of decline and turning the screws on us will continue.

If we were presented with a genuine plan to turn the companies around that included a realistic reform of management and backroom staff, better work practices, overhauls of the service to actually generate more paying customers and deal with the huge revenue hole from fare evasion and DSP fraud then I would bet most of us would be willing to give a bit for the cause as well. As it is all they can come up with is hiking fares and turning the screws on us. They presented this as a "Business Recovery Plan" but it isn't any such thing instead it is a stay of execution plan, at best it is buying a bit more time before the inevitable.

WhiteMan32

Back in May, when Bus Eireann drivers (and their other employees) went on strike, an NBRU spokesperson said at the time that members at Irish Rail and Dublin Bus may follow BE workers on to the picket lines.

While I welcome no threat of disruption to Bus Eireann services in the coming days, can anyone explain why the NBRU are seemingly saying that the current DB strike might extend to Irish Rail only.

I'm interested because where I reside, the train would suit me as an alternative method of public transport to and from work while DB workers strike, whereas Bus Eireann services wouldn't, simply because there are no BE 'stops' near me.

Jamie2k9

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

Back in May, when Bus Eireann drivers (and their other employees) went on strike, an NBRU spokesperson said at the time that members at Irish Rail and Dublin Bus may follow BE workers on to the picket lines.

While I welcome no threat of disruption to Bus Eireann services in the coming days, can anyone explain why the NBRU are seemingly saying that the current DB strike might extend to Irish Rail only.

I'm interested because where I reside, the train would suit me as an alternative method of public transport to and from work while DB workers strike, whereas Bus Eireann services wouldn't, simply because there are no BE 'stops' near me.

Its just the NBRU using bully tactics to get DB/ministers to roll over and talks. BE have only reached an agreement and the NBRU can't ask them to strike. What I want to know is what the NBRU have being doing for the last 14 months. Clearly not a lot.

IE won't strike at all.

This just shows that CIE needs to be split up and this would stop the NBRU's empty threats.

Michael D Not Higgins

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its just the NBRU using bully tactics to get DB/ministers to roll over and talks. How this has taken 14 months is a complete joke.

IE won't strike at all.

Not least because it is unlawful strike action and will hurt their own negotiations coming up.

devnull

Vic_08 wrote: »

As has already been stated in this thread every excuse in the book has been trotted out to justify the huge salaries of the very people responsible for the current economic crisis being untouchable despite many of these now being paid out of taxpayers pockets.

In the case of Dublin Bus how anyone can justify the dozens of managers on c100K and the chiefs on figures closer to 200k? The joke is you yourself are full of criticism on the running of all the CIE companies, who do you think is running them? These people do not deserve a tenth of their salaries after running the companies into the ground.

I'm no defender of CIE management, I've already said that they deserve to be cut and they need to take a bigger share than they have to date and are wanting to, and there has been a huge amount of bad management in the company. But are the management the only problem in the company? Of course they are not and they have made some bad decisions, but as I said, you just cannot blame everything on one group, since it's a number of factors.

And you are wrong. You quote tiny cuts rather than the radical overhaul of management throughout CIE which is the only thing that at this point has a hope of saving the companies long term. Not only are they all vastly overpaid for the abilities they bring to the table there are far too many of them.

We have different opinions, nobody is right or wrong, but actually I agree with a lot of what you have to say since I'm no fan of the management of the companies and I'm sure there is plenty of waste in these companies, and if that was tackled there would be less burden on the front line of workers.

A proper cull of all the un-necessary middle management positions and all of the other obsolete legacy backroom areas that contribute SFA to the operation but still maintain numerous highly paid positions along with a 75% cut in salary for senior management with a bonus scheme for them to earn based on the company hitting strict targets would claw back millions not a few hundred thousand.

But redundancies cost upfront money, and that needs to be taken into account. It's clear that most of these management are not short term workers in the company that have been there for many years, even if they give people 2 weeks pay per year of service, think about how much that is going to cost the company up-front to pay them off.

Both you and me know that a 75% cut in salary is not going to happen in the real world, and wouldn't happen in any company whether this is Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, or any private company. I know as a front line worker you may ask and want for this to happen, but it simply isn't going to and I'm sure not every single one of the management are wasters, even though there is clearly changes that needs to be made.

Drivers are moaning about cuts to their pay and bonuses and in the past have already said they are not willing to take pay cuts to core pay, but want management to take 75% cuts. That would put a large percentage on lower wages than the staff who are getting hit by the cuts, and I'm sorry, management will always be paid more than front line workers, even management are clearly overpiad at the moment.

What most people don't understand is that as well as not wanting to lose wages a huge part of the resistance to the cuts from frontline staff is because they see clearly as day that it is just going to be business as usual for management no matter what.

I've already said that management need to take more of the brunt of the cuts, but what annoys me is when I see drivers on here, who are simply looking after themselves, and expect everyone else to take the brunt of the cuts themselves, but the same people then moan that management are not taking their fair share of the cuts. You all work for the same company

It is very obvious that they are completely unwilling to reform their own ranks, the gravy train will continue despite the sticking plaster of this round of cuts being only the tip of the iceberg. In another year or so they will be back looking for more cuts from us because the underlying causes of the group's financial problems will not have been dealt with and the cycle of decline and turning the screws on us will continue.

Well the longer the strike lasts, the more money the company are going to need to raise to cover further losses. That is the problem with strike action in a company that is in financial meltdown, anything that causes the company to lose more money just makes the problem worse. And if they need to save say €11m, and they are only able to save €8m and the strike costs them €3m, then they only save half of what they needed to, which is why they will be back later on.

The strike will continue to go on for days and weeks with the kind of attitude I see at the moment. The staff are basically saying they're not willing to take any cuts and clearly the management need to ensure that they take a bigger share of the cuts as well. But at the moment neither side is even willing to give any ground and is just hoping the other one will.

If we were presented with a genuine plan to turn the companies around that included a realistic reform of management and backroom staff, better work practices, overhauls of the service to actually generate more paying customers and deal with the huge revenue hole from fare evasion and DSP fraud then I would bet most of us would be willing to give a bit for the cause as well. As it is all they can come up with is hiking fares and turning the screws on us. They presented this as a "Business Recovery Plan" but it isn't any such thing instead it is a stay of execution plan, at best it is buying a bit more time before the inevitable.

And I completely agree that more needs to be done in that regard and that is something that management need to look at. However it doesn't mean that every problem is down to them, as it most certainly isn't.

Staff not using double doors on buses with them, that causes huge dwell times at stops, doesn't help. A friend was on a bus when the bus spent longer dwelling at stops than it did on the road on a 30 minute journey during peak, where a bus would stop at a stop, 30-40 people would get off, pushing past all the others standing, whilst people outside wait for them to get off whilst others get on, and five minutes later the bus leaves. If you add that time up over the course of a whole route, it could be the difference between needing 12 or 15 buses being needed to run a route. Which would generate cost savings and faster journey times would attract bigger demand.

Of course it would mean less drivers needed to staff the buses, but it would result in a reduction in costs since less buses are needed to run a timetable and saving fuel. The drivers could then be redeployed to be spare drivers, but in the time they have no work, roster them on as inspectors checking tickets, which would cut out DSP fraud and over-travel fraud and suchlike, as these staff are already being paid for now, they would not generate any staff costs, and they should be given a bonus based on the amount of fraud they catch out.

In just a few easy steps you have
- Faster, more efficient routes that require less buses and attact more passengers.
- Related savings in fuel since less buses need to be on the road.
- A team of inspectors at no extra cost to the company to deter fraud
- A reduction in the number of fraudulent travel, generating extra revenue.

That's just a suggestion for management, but it needs co-operation of the drivers as well.

TimeToShine

What is the likelihood of this strike going on into Wednesday?

markpb

TimeToShine wrote: »

What is the likelihood of this strike going on into Wednesday?

Maybe it's wishful thinking but no one is going to be able to answer that question because no one knows.

Gatling

markpb wrote: »

Maybe it's wishful thinking but no one is going to be able to answer that question because no one knows.

Considering there's rumors that Irish rail will now join the strike in a show of solidarity in the next few days