Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

devnull

After the 4 was cut back in network direct, I stopped using Dublin Bus, since getting to work in Ballsbridge was hell, since I'd often see several buses go past full before being able to get on one, I'm not sure what it's like now, but a few months post network direct it was hell compared to what it was before. So it drove me off Dublin Bus and since then I've rarely used them, apart from to the airport, or the Nitelink.

In fairness some drivers and some services are well run, when I worked in Ballsbridge I had to get two buses, one from home to the city center and then another to Ballsbridge, I never really had a problem on the first leg of it, but getting to Ballsbridge was the very frustrating part post network direct. The number 4 route was destroyed by it.

miller50841

Gatling wrote: »

Been people are blaming the government ,bailout yada yada, yada

When's the last time Dublin bus actually made an operating profit without government handouts

It is a semi state not private nor public a bit in the middle lets say they were operating fairly well around 2006 to 2008 as far as I am aware.

miller50841

devnull wrote: »

After the 4 was cut back in network direct, I stopped using Dublin Bus, since getting to work in Ballsbridge was hell, since I'd often see several buses go past full before being able to get on one, I'm not sure what it's like now, but a few months post network direct it was hell compared to what it was before. So it drove me off Dublin Bus and since then I've rarely used them, apart from to the airport, or the Nitelink.

In fairness some drivers and some services are well run, when I worked in Ballsbridge I had to get two buses, one from home to the city center and then another to Ballsbridge, I never really had a problem on the first leg of it, but getting to Ballsbridge was the very frustrating part post network direct. The number 4 route was destroyed by it.

7 or 8 would work also they cut the 4 but there would be a better chance of getting the 7 or if really bad dart would be an option.

strandroad

miller50841 wrote: »

If you want buses to come split what will happen and what they are trying to get in will be buses pulling in at stops and waiting for 2 minutes or more to space them out.

I honestly don't know how it's done in other cities I know but it's done so it's possible. More to do with scheduling than with pulling in I suppose.

Now from what I have seen on the net and what one of my friends has told me about changing drivers in service in town some have a huge problem and do be up giving the driver grief for just that 2 minutes.

Ah yeah, lived on the 46a route too. Try sitting there waiting for drivers to finish their chats, twice a day if you're unlucky. Or finding out that the driver is not there at all - in the days of the old 746 a driver never showed up for his Parnell Sq change so all airport bound passengers had to grab taxis to get there in time. Switched to Aircoach on that weekend, never looked back.

Again, I don't know how they do it elsewhere but they do it so that passengers don't need to endure that.

Then they kept raising fares... and now quelle surprise DB is haemorrhaging passengers...

devnull

Infini2 wrote: »

Except one thing is missing here. Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Eirann have to provide for multiple routes including ones that dont make a profit.

Profits (or losses) are directly linked to the cost of doing business. Since if your costs are higher than your income, then you make a loss. If you reduce your costs, the loss gets smaller, or vanishes and turns into a profit.

The biggest cost for any business is without a doubt salaries. This is not just the case in public transport companies, it is pretty much the case in any company up and down the country. If you reduce your costs, you reduce the amount of revenue a route needs to break even or be profitable.

If they were private companies you'd see services as well as staff cut back across the board leaving many people cut off or with a rather weak service.

I'm not asking for full private running, I'm asking for competitive tendering where the best bid gets the contract, like in London, with routes in bundles that contain a mixture of routes from each end of the scale with contracts set out by the National Transport Authority with heavy penalties if they step away from the contracts. or do not provide a certain level of service. Such service standards should be in contracts already.

Remember that theyre looking for pay cuts again on top of pay cuts already agreed in the past. People fought to get the jobs from bottom of the barrel, no life, crap pay, working overtime to make ends meet to something more reasonable today you cant expect them to take cuts to the point its better to be unemployed than to work.

What you call crap pay may not be crap pay to everyone else, because there are people who are paid far less than you guys are. It's a gross exageration to say that it's better to be unemployed. I've been on the dole for a few weeks in the last few years, and to even claim your pay is anything approaching that is insulting, since even with these cuts, you'll be on much more than the money you get on jobseekers, which is only paid for 6 months or so anyway.

Theres also the waste with the whole free pass scheme with 1/3rd of the country getting on for free and the companies get a flat amount regardless of how many people travel.

One thing I will agree on is that the free travel pass scheme in it's current form is not sustainable as it is and needs to make major changes to combat fraud and other problems. It certainly does not help things, but it is not a major reason behind the current issues Dublin Bus find themselves in, but it does certainly contribute.

The private sector ran for the hills when they were asked if they would accomodate it considering its so open to abuse so if this were a private company expect that to be dropped first. Going any further on this is more or less another seperate thread entirely.

Actually many private operators are taking the free travel pass and are also getting nowhere near the payments for their passengers that the farepayers are paying. The only reason that new services are not on them, is not because the private operators don't want to take them, but the fact that simply new services are not allowed to join the free travel scheme. This is the same for DB/BE services and private ones.

devnull

miller50841 wrote: »

7 or 8 would work also they cut the 4 but there would be a better chance of getting the 7 or if really bad dart would be an option.

My bus to the city center left me 30 seconds walk away from the 4/7 stop, and 2 minute walk from my work. I could take either bus, but the 4 was by far more reliable and the drivers were more willing to ensure that they would stop to pick people up if their bus was full. What used to happen on the 7 in the evenings is that a bus coming through Ballsbridge would have had a few seats on it but nearly full, and the driver would see 40 people at the stop and drive past because he could not let everyone on.

When the 4 was at a higher peak frequency, it would then mop up the passengers by letting as many on as possible and turn away those it couldn't physically fit on (be that arctic or decker) unlike the drivers on the 7 who wouldn't even bother to let anyone on. Most buses were artics then which would have 120-130 people on, great for clearing crowds. Normally even if a 7 would go past full you'd get a 4 who would mop the passengers up. Post Network direct the 4's were not running at even their cut, advertised frequency, and when they did they often went past full. It was not unusual to wait to see 3-4 buses go past full one after another and have to wait well over half an hour for a bus. I believe it is better now, but that is hardly surprising since most of my work colleagues simply stopped using the bus and if people in other companies did the same, then yes, Dublin Bus can argue it had been a success as overcrowding is gone, but they lost revenue in the process, since people simply stopped using the bus.

I didn't use the DART because the DART was another 15 minute walk for a train that only runs every 15 minutes from the city center, and another 10 minutes walk from my office, not to mention having to pay the cost of a bus and rail when previously I paid for a bus ticket.

This has nothing to do with staff, but I'm just illustrating that whilst some of the staff need to realise that cuts need to be made, management have also made some illogical choices which have not helped the company and they need to realise this.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

markpb

miller50841 wrote: »

If you want buses to come split what will happen and what they are trying to get in will be buses pulling in at stops and waiting for 2 minutes or more to space them out.

Everything is an insurmountable problem for Dublin Bus and most things can be blamed on the customer. If only other companies in the world operated buses and had solutions for these problems ...

They do. They split the timetable into zones and bus drivers know what time they're due at each zone and drive accordingly. If they're ahead of schedule, they slow down slightly so they arrive on time. People value predictability - if the timetable says I'll arrive at 1:30 and I do, I'll be happy. If that involves slowing down or sitting briefly, people will get used to that because they know they'll arrive on time.

What you're doing is mixing up a scheduled arrival with the DB practice of sitting at a changeover point for an unspecified amount of time, without any announcement from the driver
and without the delay being mentioned by any timetable. Anyone who can't understand why that's incredibly irritating has never had it happen to them or works for DB and knows that timetables exist which the drivers (one or both of them) chose to ignore and which the customer can never be told exist.

Or DB could continue to blame everyone but themselves for their myriad of problems.

LoonyLovegood

I don't understand why DB don't have a system like BÉ in Galway. You have the time the bus leaves the terminus at, an intermediate time (usually correct to within 3 minutes, give or take), and the time the bus is at Eyre Square. The cross city buses wait at Eyre Square till the time they're to leave at.

markpb

CTYIgirl wrote: »

I don't understand why DB don't have a system like BÉ in Galway. You have the time the bus leaves the terminus at, an intermediate time (usually correct to within 3 minutes, give or take), and the time the bus is at Eyre Square. The cross city buses wait at Eyre Square till the time they're to leave at.

They do. Sort of. Some of the routes altered by Network Direct have mid point timetables but they're for guidance only. If a bus arrives early, it'll zoom by, making the whole exercise completely pointless.

Also most cities have zonal or per-stop timetables rather than a single mid-point timetable but DB can't do that. They'll probably blame traffic for that but Los Angeles manages it (and has done for years). Just as well there's no traffic in LA...

dfx-

The 4 is the route that was butchered alright. Once an hour all day Sunday for an artery route.:eek:

The 13 is a poor actual frequency and length. Overstretching themselves. It took EV64 over two hours to run from Grange Castle to Harristown last Friday week. 5 minute break for the driver and back to Grange Castle again. It was also scheduled as the last bus to Grange Castle, so there was no end in sight for the driver.

But I don't get people complaining about the likes of the 17 and 18.

devnull

I've saw a number of 13's from the south-side terminating in the city center, but none doing it from the north side. That leads me to suspect that the frequency on the Northside section or the route must be suffering if some journeys are being cut short in the city center.

Grandeeod

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I got it wrong. The insomniacs will talk later today. Sunday is still traditional with them.

the_syco

mhge wrote: »

Then they kept raising fares...

They kept getting less from the government; what the funk did you expect?

devnull wrote: »

because there are people who are paid far less than you guys are.

Do they get the same amount of abuse and/or possibility of assault?

devnull

the_syco wrote: »

They kept getting less from the government; what the funk did you expect?

Generally if a company does less work, then they should be expected to be paid less money to reflect that, at least that is the way it works in most contracts between two parties, after all bus services are provided by DB under contract from the NTA.

Subsidy was cut, because Dublin Bus downsized the number of buses it ran, and eliminated the most inefficient routes that were losing the most money, which the subsidy was used for.

Do they get the same amount of abuse and/or possibility of assault?

It is part of serving the public unfortunately. If you work in a public facing job, there is always that risk. If you don't like it you can always work somewhere, where you don't have face to face contact with the public.

I saw someone in Spar the other day getting virtually assaulted by a junkie, someone cleaner inside a hospital getting bullied because they were "Just a cleaner" and a trainee nurse getting abused by a drunk. If you serve the public face to face, unfortunately you will have to deal with the odd bad apple.

Nobody deserves to get abused or assaulted by the public and it is not acceptable, but this is not something that is just confined to bus drivers, it effects anyone in a public facing role, many of which are not on anywhere near the wages of some of these people striking.

Dealing with the public face to face is not an easy job at times, but nobody is forced to work in such a role if they don't like it.

dowlingm

Toronto buses and streetcars have a system which is supposed to tell drivers if they are ahead of or behind schedule based on GPS. Given the messing that still goes on it's proof positive that technology only goes so far.

Max001

Just read on RTE.ie that the Dublin Bus strike is going ahead today.

As a disabled person with limited mobility who relies on Dublin Bus to get anywhere further than a hundred odd yards, I want to say thank you very much to the Siptu and Nbru members who voted for this strike.

I rarely see Dublin Bus drivers taking any extra care when driving with disabled passengers. Some drivers are helpful. Many don't seem to care and make getting on and off the bus dangerous.

Even if drivers were providing a gold standard of service to passengers, a strike still wouldn't be justified. But you don't. The service you provide is mediocre at best.

What will a strike do except cost Dublin Bus money and the end result will be the tax payers taking a hit. Plus, those same tax payers will be inconvenienced, as for many, bus is their only means of transport around the city. Double whammy against Dublin Bus users and to what end?

I'm not anti-union. I believe unions have a useful place in society. However, considering the state the country is in, we all have to make sacrifices and above all, engage constructively with other stakeholders.

Siptu generally is quick enough to demand management implement Labour Court decisions where it suits their members. However in this instance, if Siptu are seeking to use a strike to overturn a Labour Court ruling that it doesn't like, this demonstrates how morally bankrupt Siptu is.

What is constructive about this strike? :mad: (rhetorical)

easygoing39

Basically all Dublin Bus staff,not just bus drivers,whom you have only picked on,are out on strike.They have all had cuts in their take home pay and voted to go on strike as they can't afford to work for any less.You would do well to read up on the proper facts,rather than post a "knee jerk" re-action thread at 3am in the morning!!

Plus Dublin Bus picked tomorrow as the start of the pay cuts,not the workers.So in a way,Dublin Bus kinda knew the strike would be on the most busy weekend/bank holiday of the year!!
You still think its the bus drivers/ all other staff causing the aggro????

smellmepower

Good on them.

Max001

easygoing39 wrote: »

You still think its the bus drivers/ all other staff causing the aggro????

In a word, yes. If the Labour Court ruled in favour of the management's cost reduction proposals and a strike is the staff's response, then it's the staff who have thrown their toys out of the pram.

Max001

This is from RTE News a few hours ago....bold effect added by me


'Workers at Dublin Bus have begun an all-out strike in protest at the company's introduction of cost-cutting measures.
The measures are part of a Labour Court recommendation aimed at saving €11.7m at Dublin Bus.
The strike began at midnight last night, Nitelink services were cancelled and no Dublin Bus services will operate today.
Dublin Bus introduced cost cutting measures today, saying after 14 months of negotiations, that it could not wait any longer as it needs to protect jobs.
The measures involve paycuts for executive and managment grades, longer working hours and cuts in annual leave for clerical staff and management.
There is no cut to core pay for drivers, but there are reductions to overtime rates, premium payments and changes to rosters, in particular to accommodate new summer timetables.
Drivers and other staff are now engaged in an all-out strike saying the changes are unacceptable.
No Dublin Bus services will operate today.
Workers at Irish Rail have indicated that they will lend their support to Dublin Bus workers if the dispute is not resolved.'

Siptu scream blue murder if due process is not followed. Is a strike due process after 14 months of negotiations and a Labour Court ruling?

the big show

I am also effected by this strike however II support the workers on strike. They like the rest of us have already taken cuts Iin pay and are asked to take more cuts . Maybe its time for other unions to join them and call a general strike in protest against austerity . I would urge anybody effected to not take this out on staff but rather on minister varadkarand his failed government. Remember its an essential public service that they would love to privatise like our bin collections

Max001

According to this http://www.publicpolicy.ie/tag/dublin-bus/ recent cost reductions to date have been achieved by falling staff numbers, while average pay has remained the same.Passenger numbers have fallen sharply during the recession, so logically, costs must be reduced in line with this.Table 6 in this report shows that when adjusted for cost of living, Dublin Bus drivers are the third highest paid in Europe.


I'm guessing that through natural attrition Dublin Bus have been able to reduce costs by cutting overall numbers back to 2003 levels and that further such reductions are impractical. If the same strategy has been adopted at other semi-state bodies, then this is why Siptu is striking now, to protect not only Dublin Bus staff's terms and conditions, but those in comparable semi-states. However, what is inevitable, is that when competitive tendering is introduced, if Dublin Bus cannot reduce its costs as per the Labour Court ruling, terms and conditions and staff numbers will be reduced over time, via the competitive tendering process. In other words, Siptu know that to protect terms and conditions in the short term, across transport semi-states, they'll be sacrificing jobs in the medium term. Many of the Dublin Bus drivers now on strike, won't have jobs in a few years. This strategy has been employed by Siptu many times in the private sector. Strikes were used to reject cost reduction plans, designed to save companies and jobs, so the companies closed and Siptu members lost their jobs anyway.

I would argue that the smart thing for the unions to do now, would be to constructively engage in cost reduction negotiations and if necessary accept the Labour Court ruling, with the caveat that competitive tendering is not introduced during the lifetime of this government. If Dublin Bus management and unions can achieve the 20%+ efficiencies that competitive tendering would offer, there'd be no logical case for implementing competitive tendering.

garhjw

Typical lazy trade unionists and their sense of entitlement.

hfallada

The labour court is independent and highly respected. Generally what the labour court says you should do. I have a feeling if the labour court ruled in favour of the bus drivers and CIE still went ahead with the cuts. All we would hear is the union talking about how bad CIE is going against the LC recommendations and that you should follow its recommendations.

I use the buses everyday. But I seriously hope the government doesnt cave in and the union realises regardless if we are in a recession, that CIE can longer continue to loss vast amounts of the tax payer money on wages that arent sustainable.

Hootanany

I wonder will they call the Army out like they did in the 80's?

rubberdiddies

I don't really know enough about ye situation to comment on it but sure it's too tempting not to

If DB are €12m or so in deficit then surely a strike will increase that figure significantly, resulting in even further cost cutting measures needed and possible job losses?

Infini

Hootanany wrote: »

I wonder will they call the Army out like they did in the 80's?

1) Rail/Luas hasnt gone on strike
2) Cutbacks they cant be bothered to pay the army to do the same thing as in the 80s :P

Devilman40k

Infini2 wrote: »

1) Rail/Luas hasnt gone on strike

Yet...

ixoy

What would satisfy Dublin Bus workers? I assume they understand money must come from somewhere?
How much are they actually suffering in take home pay? A few drivers here have said their wages aren't high because overtime is hard to get. Therefore, since only overtime is affected, are many losing out much?