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Raw/BARF diet
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30-07-2013 9:34pm#1
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Thanks, seen that thread alright, but it's not really what I'm looking for, sorry! I've read lots of peoples opinion on how great this diet is and thought I might try it for my dogs as with a change in work situation I have more time now to sit down and make they're food for them now.
I like to really research things properly, especially where my dogs are concerned and so far all I have found is negatives towards this diet from experts...there is a lot of praise for the diet from people on forums etc and I don't mean to disrespect their opinions but there are always fads out there that come and go and I'd rather scientific proof that this is a healthy option for my dogs rather than just jumping on the bandwagon blindly. At the moment there is no way I would be changing them on to this diet with what I have read, but willing to keep an open mind for a little longer and research more
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You're not going to find a massive amount of independent scientific studies into either dry or raw food diets, there simply aren't any interested parties with enough money interested in doing them. Independent studies are important to avoid studies being driven by an agenda, and often studies funded by the industry selling the product are very much swayed.
So read as much as you can, Tom Lonsdale, Ian Billinghurst, the articles on Dogs First and maybe ask the man on the street feeding raw for their experiences 0 -
fiounnalbe wrote: »Thanks, seen that thread alright, but it's not really what I'm looking for, sorry! I've read lots of peoples opinion on how great this diet is and thought I might try it for my dogs as with a change in work situation I have more time now to sit down and make they're food for them now.
I only started raw feeding about 8 months ago. I had read on here and other sites about the benefits but the one thing that made up my mind for me was that I was feeding my dogs dry, over processed, over cooked, no idea what the actual content is in there, dry food. For humans we hear nothing but "eat your 5 a day", and how to get enough of the right vitamins, minerals, iron etc to eat a fresh, healthy diet and to avoid processed foods.I like to really research things properly, especially where my dogs are concerned and so far all I have found is negatives towards this diet from experts...there is a lot of praise for the diet from people on forums etc and I don't mean to disrespect their opinions but there are always fads out there that come and go and I'd rather scientific proof that this is a healthy option for my dogs rather than just jumping on the bandwagon blindly. At the moment there is no way I would be changing them on to this diet with what I have read, but willing to keep an open mind for a little longer and research more
The companies that own and produce dry food unfortunately seem to market their way into every veterinary clinic here and in most of the western world. It's big business and they want to protect it. I recall reading something on one of the websites that claimed that the top veterinary colleges were given grants by the dry food companies to push that very agenda.
And as you speak of fads... Dry food for pets has only been around for what, 20-25 years? That to me is a fad. I remember my dogs at home when I was a child being fed tins of food and table scraps, ie what the humans were eating. Back then they didn't have these supersized pet shops with shiny aisles full of dried food - it didn't exist. My dogs, as I recall, lived far longer than the average ages given these days, well into double digits. The first dog in my house was an old english sheepdog, she was 12 when she died, the life expectancy of these dogs is something like 7 or 8 now. This was back in the 1970s so I'm sure inbreeding and hereditary illnesses have played their part but diet is a huge part of a dogs well being. The other dogs from my childhood was 17 when he died and we had a stray of indeterminate age but seemed old in spirit when she landed on the doorstep, she was around for another 10 years after that.
The fact that so many dogs are intolerant to different brands of dried food is also something that would concern me about feeding dry food. A lot of them are branded as 'complete' foods, yet dogs either get the runs, or hotspots or lose coat shine etc from them. My pair were lucky in that they didn't have intolerances but I just wasn't happy feeding a continuous diet of processed dry food. It would be like me eating dry toast day in day out. I wouldn't want it for myself so I'm not happy feeding it to my dogs.
So in short, while I understand why you would want to research things before embarking on them, the reason I think it's a great diet is simply that it isn't processed dried food that I can't be guaranteed what's in it. I know what's going in, and there's very little coming out the other end:)0 -
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So I have researched more about this diet, really thoroughly I think from both sides and focused on the most unbiased scientifically based views from both sides. I've come to my decision that the negatives are far greater than the positives and so I shall not be changing to raw, the boys food shall remain as it is! Thanks everyone for your help!borderlinemeath wrote: »And as you speak of fads... Dry food for pets has only been around for what, 20-25 years? That to me is a fad.
Just as a side note, dry food for dogs has been manufactured and fed widely since the 1890's, I think it qualifies out of the fad category by now haha
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fiounnalbe wrote: »So I have researched more about this diet, really thoroughly I think from both sides and focused on the most unbiased scientifically based views from both sides. I've come to my decision that the negatives are far greater than the positives and so I shall not be changing to raw, the boys food shall remain as it is! Thanks everyone for your help!
Just as a side note, dry food for dogs has been manufactured and fed widely since the 1890's, I think it qualifies out of the fad category by now haha
You see it's very easy to google and find the purina and mars inc marketing filling the first couple of pages;)
In the USA perhaps, but not here. It was the mid 80s as far as I'm aware when purina entered the market that the likes of pedigree who were the main producers of tinned dog and cat food, felt their market share was under threat and began producing dried food. Red mills expanded into pet food in 1992 after 80 years as equine/agricultural food producers.
I presume if you're doing all your research you've read the article about the Delta society in America, the leading Dog Therapy group banning raw fed dogs as therapy dogs? And the reasons why? Purina are major sponsors, the purina marketing director sits on the board of Delta and one of their doctors is on the Delta medical advisory group.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2010/08/05/nations-leading-dog-therapy-organization-shoots-self-in-foot-with-ban-on-raw-fed-pets.aspx
What are these 'negatives' that you speak of? I'd love to know.0 -
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I guess it depends on your situation, from reading everything, I personally just am not happy to begin this diet, but each to their own, two sides to every story and all that!
The reasons I feel it is risky are:
I have a young child in the house who has just started crawling and research unequivocally shows that dogs fed BARF are high carriers of Salmonella and sometimes E.Coli. While the risk of this is relatively low at effecting your dog, although there is still a risk, I'm not willing to put my 9 month old at risk of picking up any nasty infection from them.
Secondly and the main reason I am not starting this diet is because two different very thorough studies of a number of animals fed this diet, showed 90% suffered nutritional deficiencies that did not effect the dogs immediately but a few years down the road led to serious heart and kidney problems, with animals even just suddenly dropping dead. The diets that the dogs were fed were put together by a BARF expert nutritionist, who claimed they were full of every nutrient needed, this unnerved me no end about the diet, if the so called experts managed to miscalculate the dogs needs, what hope have I of giving them all the nutrients they need.
Thirdly, one of my dogs is a puppy and one is an elderly lad. This diet does not appear to be suitable for either, it is very hard on the kidneys and liver and I worry my older lad would have problems as his organs probably aren't what they used to be. It is also recommended that it is not given to young pups as it is hard on their digestive systems, is a much greater choking hazard and the risk of illness from salmonella is exponentially higher.
All in all, the risk of infection, choking from bones and most importantly nutritional deficiencies or indeed overload of some nutrients just doesn't some worth it to me, when the only real benefits I read were: Cleaner teeth - my dogs all have their teeth brush daily and are spotless; Shinier coat - Seems to be just because of the extra unprocessed fat, so I'd rather slightly duller coats if thats the case, my dogs coats are pretty damn shiny anyway; And finally better poo's, yes one of my dogs every now are again has softer stools than one would like to pick up but it shan't be the death of me!
True it's not nice to give them all processed food, but a balance I think is just right. I know very very few humans who don't eat something processed at least once a day and it does us no harm as long as we are eating the good stuff too. The research I've done seems to point in the same direction for dogs, I feed mine at the moment, kibble mixed with fresh fruit and veg and some cooked meat and they are all doing great. I'm glad I researched the BARF but unless more convincing research comes to light at the moment I'm sticking with what I'm doing at the moment 0 -
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fiounnalbe wrote: »I guess it depends on your situation, from reading everything, I personally just am not happy to begin this diet, but each to their own, two sides to every story and all that!
The reasons I feel it is risky are:
I have a young child in the house who has just started crawling and research unequivocally shows that dogs fed BARF are high carriers of Salmonella and sometimes E.Coli. While the risk of this is relatively low at effecting your dog, although there is still a risk, I'm not willing to put my 9 month old at risk of picking up any nasty infection from them.
The same standard of housekeeping around your own food as well as the dogs food should eliminate any traces of salmonella. Also dogs produce an enzyme in their saliva that eliminates any bacteria from the dogs mouth, it's a case of keeping the dog either outside or crated for a time after feeding to give the enzymes time to work.
There's also research into dry fed dogs passing on salmonella, I can't remember where I read it but I do remember it.. i'll see can I find a link..Secondly and the main reason I am not starting this diet is because two different very thorough studies of a number of animals fed this diet, showed 90% suffered nutritional deficiencies that did not effect the dogs immediately but a few years down the road led to serious heart and kidney problems, with animals even just suddenly dropping dead. The diets that the dogs were fed were put together by a BARF expert nutritionist, who claimed they were full of every nutrient needed, this unnerved me no end about the diet, if the so called experts managed to miscalculate the dogs needs, what hope have I of giving them all the nutrients they need.
There's just as many deficiencies in feeding dry in my opinion. Dogs needs change with age and activity and a lot of people will still blindly feed the same dry food without a thought as to the dogs health. Even if a dry food is labelled senior, or weight control, how do we know it's suiting the dog? They can't tell us.Thirdly, one of my dogs is a puppy and one is an elderly lad. This diet does not appear to be suitable for either, it is very hard on the kidneys and liver and I worry my older lad would have problems as his organs probably aren't what they used to be. It is also recommended that it is not given to young pups as it is hard on their digestive systems, is a much greater choking hazard and the risk of illness from salmonella is exponentially higher.
Neither of mine are in that age bracket so can't comment, but on the risk of choking, the obvious answer would be to mince or grind the meat.All in all, the risk of infection, choking from bones and most importantly nutritional deficiencies or indeed overload of some nutrients just doesn't some worth it to me, when the only real benefits I read were: Cleaner teeth - my dogs all have their teeth brush daily and are spotless; Shinier coat - Seems to be just because of the extra unprocessed fat, so I'd rather slightly duller coats if thats the case, my dogs coats are pretty damn shiny anyway; And finally better poo's, yes one of my dogs every now are again has softer stools than one would like to pick up but it shan't be the death of me!
True it's not nice to give them all processed food, but a balance I think is just right. I know very very few humans who don't eat something processed at least once a day and it does us no harm as long as we are eating the good stuff too. The research I've done seems to point in the same direction for dogs, I feed mine at the moment, kibble mixed with fresh fruit and veg and some cooked meat and they are all doing great. I'm glad I researched the BARF but unless more convincing research comes to light at the moment I'm sticking with what I'm doing at the moment
Agreed, I came home from the supermarket with loads of fruit, veg, spuds etc yet I still stuck a pizza in the oven for convenience sake! At least you add additions to your kibble, the pet food companies (and even a lot of vets) wouldn't want you to do this, sure you'd buy less of it then. I have a huge problem with the pet food companies and the lengths they go to to dissuade people from trying alternatives, scaremongering against anything that isn't their brand.0 -
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borderlinemeath wrote: »The same standard of housekeeping around your own food as well as the dogs food should eliminate any traces of salmonella. Also dogs produce an enzyme in their saliva that eliminates any bacteria from the dogs mouth, it's a case of keeping the dog either outside or crated for a time after feeding to give the enzymes time to work.
This made me laugh. This just simply isn't true. It's an old wives tale from centuries ago based on how dogs like their own wounds to clean them. They lick them because they hurt no other reason. Dogs mouths are full of bacteria, just think about it logically, if they weren't no dog would ever have dental problems and people wouldn't need tetnus shots and antibiotics if bitten. They in fact have more bacteria than a human mouth at the best of times, hence I don't want to add more dangerous ones to it.borderlinemeath wrote: »how do we know it's suiting the dog? They can't tell us.
I don't see the point? Can they tell you that RAW diet is suiting them?!!
My point was that I don't trust myself get it right since some experts in the field can't and it is more likely that when you buy a good brand of dry food which I do, that has had years of research put into that my dog will be getting all it's nutrients. I would never forgive myself if a year down the road my dogs blood results came back showing organ problems because I changed the way I feed them.borderlinemeath wrote: »the obvious answer would be to mince or grind the meat.
Obviously for meat yes, but bones (which are a very important part of the diet) are a choking hazard, even more so ground as they could be sharp then and my pup wolfs down food instead of chewing.
Yes I also read about the dry food carrying salmonella, but they don't name brands, I'd like to believe they were cheap brands, someone please correct me if they know different, I'd be very interested
For those asking for links, here is just one of many you can find on Pub Med and other reputable sites by typing in "dog raw food" (google imo has too much crap on it) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005436
Unfortunately you have to buy many of the papers so this is just showing you an abstract, to get the whole paper you will need to pay and download or send away for them like I have.0 -
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fiounnalbe wrote: »This made me laugh. This just simply isn't true. It's an old wives tale from centuries ago based on how dogs like their own wounds to clean them. They lick them because they hurt no other reason. Dogs mouths are full of bacteria, just think about it logically, if they weren't no dog would ever have dental problems and people wouldn't need tetnus shots and antibiotics if bitten. They in fact have more bacteria than a human mouth at the best of times, hence I don't want to add more dangerous ones to it.
The point is their mouths are no more dirty that if they're fed dry, and dry food also poses a risk of salmonella. The risk when feeding raw is of contamination of worktops when prepping and floors when feeding. The dogs mouth is the least of your worries.I don't see the point? Can they tell you that RAW diet is suiting them?!!
They look better, are more muscular, their teeth are cleaner and the vet gave them a clean bill of health at their last check up. Poos are small and firm, no glands issues, ear issues etc.My point was that I don't trust myself get it right since some experts in the field can't and it is more likely that when you buy a good brand of dry food which I do, that has had years of research put into that my dog will be getting all it's nutrients. I would never forgive myself if a year down the road my dogs blood results came back showing organ problems because I changed the way I feed them.
I don't trust the companies that make the dog food, a high percentage are owned by large multinationals that have one thing on their agenda and it's not dogs health, it profit margin.
What brand of food do you feed by the way?Obviously for meat yes, but bones (which are a very important part of the diet) are a choking hazard, even more so ground as they could be sharp then and my pup wolfs down food instead of chewing.
I was going to reference TK123 as I know she minces her bones (she even has a youtube clip of her mincer in action!) so no, I'm afraid your wrong, it's tiny bits of bone and a dogs stomach acid is capable of dissolving the bones that are suitable for feeding (raw chicken bones etc)Yes I also read about the dry food carrying salmonella, but they don't name brands, I'd like to believe they were cheap brands, someone please correct me if they know different, I'd be very interested
As many posters here will testify, the price of the food has very little bearing on quality. Many of the brands that the majority of consumers are conned into thinking are 'premium' are far from it. They're just marketed very very well.For those asking for links, here is just one of many you can find on Pub Med and other reputable sites by typing in "dog raw food" (google imo has too much crap on it) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005436
Unfortunately you have to buy many of the papers so this is just showing you an abstract, to get the whole paper you will need to pay and download or send away for them like I have.
One last thing. If you get a human bite you also need a tetanus shot, and humans don't exactly sit down to a bowl of raw meat for their dinner now do they?0 -
Just on this ground bones like chicken legs/wings etc completely break down when they're passed thru a mincer - even on the most coarse (ie biggest holes) disk on my mincer you don't end up with small pieces of bone at all in the mince - it's just mince.
Thanks for the info TK123, I stand correctedborderlinemeath wrote: »The point is their mouths are no more dirty that if they're fed dry, and dry food also poses a risk of salmonella. The risk when feeding raw is of contamination of worktops when prepping and floors when feeding. The dogs mouth is the least of your worries.
If research properly and I mean really research, not just looking at google you will see the evidence in scientific reports where mulitiple tests and experiments have been done which show a considerable increase in Salmonella in dogs fed raw than those on dry.borderlinemeath wrote: »They look better, are more muscular, their teeth are cleaner and the vet gave them a clean bill of health at their last check up. Poos are small and firm, no glands issues, ear issues etc.
My dogs are very muscular, lean and fit (I run 5k with them 5 times a week, obv not the puppy he's too young!), all have a clean bill of health, shiny coats, no gland issues, skin issues or ear issues either.
James Wellbelovedborderlinemeath wrote: »What brand of food do you feed by the way?borderlinemeath wrote: »One last thing. If you get a human bite you also need a tetanus shot, and humans don't exactly sit down to a bowl of raw meat for their dinner now do they?
I know
But you said a dog had a "special" enzyme that gets rid of bacteria, which they don't. That was what I was pointing out. They're mouths minus raw food are a lot less sterile that humans anyway, so add in uncooked meat, most of which carries salmonella and some even Ecoli and it's even more dirty. I understand there may be a risk from dry food, but the risk is a lot smaller.
Anyway, I came on here originally to see if anyone had any real evidence that the RAW diet is all it's cracked up to be. All I have gotten is peoples personal opinions that their dogs look great and their poos are small. Whereas I have a lot of scientific evidence that theres a higher risk of infection with RAW food to my baby than feeding dry food and cooked meat and more importantly that while my dogs might look good on it now, a few years down the road they may become seriously ill from like of tiny important and vital nutrients being left out while feeding this diet.
I'm happy with my decision to not go down the raw road, it's a free country we can feed our dogs what we will, people asked for the reasons I have chosen not to feed raw and I have explained them thoroughly now, so this is the last I shall say on this topic!! Night!0 -
fiounnalbe wrote: »Just on this ground bones like chicken legs/wings etc completely break down when they're passed thru a mincer - even on the most coarse (ie biggest holes) disk on my mincer you don't end up with small pieces of bone at all in the mince - it's just mince.
Thanks for the info TK123, I stand corrected
If research properly and I mean really research, not just looking at google you will see the evidence in scientific reports where mulitiple tests and experiments have been done which show a considerable increase in Salmonella in dogs fed raw than those on dry.
What are the percentages then? Is it 50% higher, 100% higher? If you've done the research please pass on the information with actual figures rather than bandying about terms like 'multiple' and 'considerable'.My dogs are very muscular, lean and fit (I run 5k with them 5 times a week, obv not the puppy he's too young!), all have a clean bill of health, shiny coats, no gland issues, skin issues or ear issues either.
From one of your earlier posts..Thirdly, one of my dogs is a puppy and one is an elderly lad.
Please tell me you don't bring the elderly dog on a 5k run 5 times a week? I'm hoping you have a few more dogs that you didn't mention?James Wellbeloved
One of the better ones, but not the best in my opinion. Not much choice if your dog has a rice intolerance. And I have a bit of a bug bear with brands that stick 'hypoallergenic' on all their products. Dogs tend not to be allergic to a huge amount of foods. Intolerant yes, allergic, no. Again, the marketers doing their best at scaremongering.I know But you said a dog had a "special" enzyme that gets rid of bacteria, which they don't. That was what I was pointing out. They're mouths minus raw food are a lot less sterile that humans anyway, so add in uncooked meat, most of which carries salmonella and some even Ecoli and it's even more dirty. I understand there may be a risk from dry food, but the risk is a lot smaller.
Lysozyme.Anyway, I came on here originally to see if anyone had any real evidence that the RAW diet is all it's cracked up to be. All I have gotten is peoples personal opinions that their dogs look great and their poos are small. Whereas I have a lot of scientific evidence that theres a higher risk of infection with RAW food to my baby than feeding dry food and cooked meat and more importantly that while my dogs might look good on it now, a few years down the road they may become seriously ill from like of tiny important and vital nutrients being left out while feeding this diet.
I'm happy with my decision to not go down the raw road, it's a free country we can feed our dogs what we will, people asked for the reasons I have chosen not to feed raw and I have explained them thoroughly now, so this is the last I shall say on this topic!! Night!
That's your choice but I think you had yourself convinced before you even started the thread. I have a feeling you may have been looking for posters to back up your assertion that processed dried food fed every day (albeit mixed with some cooked food) is better.0 -
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My own dog has been on raw since he was 4 months old and he's coming up to 17 months now. I can tell you he's lean, muscular, excellent coat, excellent teeth - I mean super sparkly- no itches, no hot spots and firm non rancid stools. He's extremely fit and his energy levels are prefect.
I am curious about these studies that suggest raw is detrimental for dogs and am also curious why- despite being asked- OP, you have yet to link to them.
I understand if you are concerned about hygiene issues, but surely they are the same with any feeding of an animal, keep bowls and feeding area clean, prep and freeze food properly.
The commercial dog food industry is vast and growing at a huge scale- dentastix (!) obesity food (!) anyone?
Naturally, through advertising and marketing, it's easy to convince people that feeding their over-priced grain based product is what is best for their animal. Cleanly packaged, bright colours, using language like 'enriched with' and 'fortified', photos of smiliey bounding dogs on the covers of bags... it's rremarkable.
Until you take even the most casual look at a dog's physiology and start to ask yourself why he'd need grain as a filler, you wonder what meat derivitive might actually mean. You wonder why dogs need a product to clean their teeth, you wonder why dogs might need obesity food that appears to be made up from sub-standard ingredients, you question the need for flavour enhancers and dyes, you wonder why people have to add other prodcuts to food to get the animal to eat ( dog gravy! yay, so healthy, so salty).
And then, having asked these question of yourself, you ask other people, and you start to feel differently about your dog's food. You decide you've been sold something of a pup with regards food. And you offer your own experiences anecdotally on forums on a Saturday morning.
So, those studies you mentioned OP. Lets see them. If I'm going horribly wrong I'd like to know why and how.0 -
been feeding my 2 all raw for a good few months, very happy with them, im after getting another springer, its 8 weeks, how old before i can feed him all raw, should i keep him on nuts for a few weeks/months
I got my pup at 9 weeks and she's been on it since day one with us and no probs. I decided to take the risk having fed that same RC to my guy when he was a pup a- her not tolerating to the gRaw and getting an upset tummy wasn't a million miles off what I'd be expecting to come out with RC
I happened to get the buy one get one free promo DogsFirst had last month when he was clearing stock so she's been on gRaw so far but I'll be going back to our usual duck necks and will probably mince them for her for a while and mix with our usual fruit/veg mix to be safe so it's easiest on her tummy. 0 -
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