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Newbridge Credit Union
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whitleydonal wrote: ».
Did you know that there is a new dictat from the central bank in that a credit union cannot give a member a loan if their mortgage is in arrears or is the subject of a forbearance agreement. We were unable to give a member a loan for school books and uniform but what will happen as night follows day people will be forced back into the hands of moneylenders who are not covered by this restriction, now how interesting is that. Now you may say only right but in all this mess life must go on, in all my years of experience, birthdays Christmas and other child related events will still happen no matter where the money comes from, I just think it is better coming from someone who knows the member like a credit union.
The Central Bank did not issue a dictate; what it did issue was a letter outlining a credit unions duties to lend responsibly in accordance with the EU consumer credit directive. The CB advised caution in lending to a member who was already over-indebted, which is in my belief a reasonable request.
How the Credit Union interprets this is a different issue, and yes there are many CU's who, like you, have considered this a dictate. There are other CU's who have interpreted it as guidance.
- Should a CU give 10k to a member in significant mortgage arrears - No
- Should a CU give 1k to a member to get their children back to school - Always, if the member has proved themselves to the credit union.
It's unfortunate that your credit union interpreted the guidance as you have. You should consider reading the letter again but from the viewpoint that the regulator issued it for the right reasons. I think you might find that it does allow for common sense to prevail.0 -
roy rodgers wrote: »Is there anything stopping the people of newbridge closing there accounts when the almagamtion happens a setting up a "the new newbridge credit union" or will any thing like that be shot down straight away.
Yes - The must be a 'common bond' between the members. Newbridge Credit Unions common bond is the community, as this common bond is already fulfilled, albeit by a very big credit union, another CU will not be able set up.0 -
Just googled a photo of the building as it seems to be at he centre of the conversation.
Can anyone say how many staff actually worked there around 2008?
Can't get over the size of it. Why so big? Are the numbers quoted above on the money spent on this building correct? If so, the decision maker in this instance has a lot to answer for (and not because he/she didn't see the crash coming, but how they arrived at the need for such a large building funded by members savings).0 -
iamdonie1984 wrote: »Just googled a photo of the building as it seems to be at he centre of the conversation.
Can anyone say how many staff actually worked there around 2008?
Can't get over the size of it. Why so big? Are the numbers quoted above on the money spent on this building correct? If so, the decision maker in this instance has a lot to answer for (and not because he/she didn't see the crash coming, but how they arrived at the need for such a large building funded by members savings).
Not sure how staff are there now.
The left hand side is heavily used with kiosks all the way around. The right hand side with the large toilet bowl gets a nod to tokenism with one member of staff in it at any time to alleviate the rush on the other side. The right hand side is a complete waste of money but the left hand side upgrade was necessary and done to reduce members wasting time. It had a large membership and the wait was silly before the upgrade.0 -
iamdonie1984 wrote: »Just googled a photo of the building as it seems to be at he centre of the conversation.
Can anyone say how many staff actually worked there around 2008?
Can't get over the size of it. Why so big? Are the numbers quoted above on the money spent on this building correct? If so, the decision maker in this instance has a lot to answer for (and not because he/she didn't see the crash coming, but how they arrived at the need for such a large building funded by members savings).
Slightly detracting, so apologies but...
You think that's bad, check Árás Cill Dara, and what a monstrosity of a building that is. Now one has an idea of the crazy wasteage that went on in this county/country during the so-called boom0 -
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Slightly detracting, so apologies but...
You think that's bad, check Árás Cill Dara, and what a monstrosity of a building that is. Now one has an idea of the crazy wasteage that went on in this county/country during the so-called boom
You should walk inside and see how much space is wasted.0 -
Slightly detracting, so apologies but...
You think that's bad, check Árás Cill Dara, and what a monstrosity of a building that is. Now one has an idea of the crazy wasteage that went on in this county/country during the so-called boom
Here's another one for you - I'd love to know how many million of tax payers money was spent on this.
http://robinleearchitecture.com/wexford/
And to make matters worse, the fantastic building now lies vacant. It was earmarked for closure years ago. Surely the Dept of Env and Dept of Health could have come to some agreement to benefit the taxpayer
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=images&county=WX®no=156040520 -
badgerbroc11 wrote: »Here's another one for you - I'd love to know how many million of tax payers money was spent on this.
http://robinleearchitecture.com/wexford/
And to make matters worse, the fantastic building now lies vacant. It was earmarked for closure years ago. Surely the Dept of Env and Dept of Health could have come to some agreement to benefit the taxpayer
http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=images&county=WX®no=15604052[/QUOTE]
Again apologies for digressing but....has anyone ever been held accountable for that building? You ARE right, stunning building, but to learn it's empty is a shocking indictment of everything that's gone wrong in this country that government's have RUINED.0 -
Senan's would not have been a suitable building for Wexford CC's headquarters for a list of reasons as long as your arm, including location, the physical layout of the building and the fact that it was still well in use at the time the new HQ was started.0
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...and none of which has any real bearing on this topic, so let's go back to the matter in hand0
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Getting back onto the real issue people!!! Again i ask the question, why did the Board of Directors not appeal the appointment of the "Special Manager" in the first instance as it was in their remit to do so. Why is the NCU action group not highlighting this fact.
Also, if you want to aim at anyone that is responsible for this whole fiasco then look at who was responsible for NCU investments. There was an elected group of three on the investment board of NCU when saving deposits placed in other institutions, bonds, other investments and when the decision to invest in that CRAZY extension were agreed. And their decisions would have then been agreed at board level. "A golden circle" that abused their office for greed at the expense of ordinary members.
And now those ordinary members who are struggling to meet their repayments due to economic hardship are being afforded no flexibility to restructure their loans to a meaningful level. They are being offered no debt write down, or interest freeze to assist, but i bet you there is very forensic maneuvering within the accounting books to restructure, write down and freeze or reduce interest rates for the few that messed everything up(Board of Directors).
The NCU are rejecting proposals to negotiate debt write downs and continue to take legal action aggressively to get judgements in the circuit court. Why???0 -
At the 2009 AGM many members tried to do just that. But the "Have hats will officiate" people won out. Thats why the directors needed to be got rid ofSlightly detracting, so apologies but...
You think that's bad, check Árás Cill Dara, and what a monstrosity of a building that is. Now one has an idea of the crazy wasteage that went on in this county/country during the so-called boom
The building of the office in Newbridge was the result of the Bord of Directors behaving like the "Members" they were loaning €millions to. They saw themselves as powerful financiers. People who controlled Millions of Euro. It was never envisaged that members could borrow to get the "Tax Man" off their back or that members in their "Seventies" could borrow €0.000.00. Some Bord Directors were obnoxious, some were ignorant and some again were Both.0 -
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0918/475100-newbridge-credit-union/
Finance Minister Michael Noonan has told the Dáil that tens of millions of euro in taxpayers' money will have to paid out to cover losses at Newbridge Credit Union in Co Kildare.
Mr Noonan said this is the first time public money was required to support a credit union.
The final figure can not be disclosed at this stage, he said, but the minister confirmed it was substantial.
The funding is necessary to ensure the savings of the credit union members are protected.0 -
This was the response to the letters page of leinster leader this week for the same headline as above. I cannot get the link online so I pulled it off the facebook page, Save Newbridge CU. In short, the revaluation of a fully paid for building caused the revenue to dip in to more dangerous territory. The action group believes the finances were ok until the government stepped in and the savers pulled their savings. Read below and make of it whatever you wish.
Statement from Willie Crowley - in response to the Leinster Leaders Front Page Article Tuesday 10th September
14 September 2013 at 01:09
Reference Leinster Leader Article Tuesday, September 10th 2013
The following is a statement from Newbridge Credit Union Action Group in response to a front page article published in this week’s edition of the Leinster Leader under the heading ‘CU Accounts reveal financial collapse’ from the chairman of the Action group, Willie Crowley:
The article published is both inaccurate and misleading and borders on the irresponsible. It is clearly written by someone who does not understand accounting procedures, who does not have access to full factual information and who relied on a ‘cheap’, sensational headline to garnish interest in a story that does not hold up under any scrutiny. It was in our view, an irresponsible piece of journalism from a newspaper purporting to serve a community to which it owes its very existence. It was damaging, dangerous and destructive.
I would like to address some of the conclusions your writer arrived at: The period covered in the article: 2007-2011 was one of deep recession and the Board of NCU adopted a prudent and conservative strategy. This involved amongst other things, increasing the bad debt provision and the revenue reserves, whilst curtailing lending, and expenditure, in addition to distribution to members.
The reasons why loan repayments as referred to in the article were considerably reduced in this period were:
(a) Loans issued were reduced considerably therefore the amounts repaid would also be lower.
(b) An increasing number of borrowers went on to reduced repayments due to job losses and economic circumstances.
(c) A reduction in borrowers’ income due to ‘austerity’ measures.
The reason why loan interest income was lower in this period was because:
(a) The Board reduced the lending rates on all loans by 10% in February 2010 to assist borrowers through the recession. This would result in a drop in income of €1.4 million each year
(b) The total value of loans was decreasing due to lower lending and hence the amount of loan interest collectable was also lower.
(c) An increasing number of borrowers went onto reduced repayments due to job losses and economic circumstances-thus income would be lower.
In relation to the statement concerning dividends-no proposed or planned dividends of any description were agreed for 2011.
Most commentary in the media on the provision for Bad Debts appears to overlook one simple fact: There is no standard agreed policy laid down by the Central Bank or anyone else for calculating a provision for bad debts. Uniformity does not exist and comparisons cannot be made as most policies adopted vary greatly. Newbridge Credit Union auditors, Grant Thornton, did not apply resolution 49 to NCU. If the levels of provision imposed in NCU were carried out across the sector, then the vast majority of credit unions in Ireland would be deemed to be insolvent.
In relation to his comments on savings, I would point out that all savings in NCU are in the form of shares. There are no deposits. The increase in shares over the past decade is due to the trust placed in the credit union by the members in the Common Bond area: Newbridge, Allen, Caragh, Suncroft and Two Mile House. When the author of the piece compares the demographic of Newbridge he appears to be ignorant of this Common Bond and also that CU rules allow members who work in an area, while residing elsewhere, to be members of that Credit Union, thus those employed in large industries in Newbridge have been attracted to the local credit union.
The decrease in shares over the past few years is simply explained as follows
(a) Normal ongoing withdrawals (over half of the members do not borrow)
(b) People using savings rather than borrowing in the recession
(c) Year-end/Christmas withdrawals
(d) Lower dividends and rebates
(e) Paying off debt in NCU and banks
(f) Lower access to credit for members and families resulting in more use of shares.
(note from moderator, please excuse the table layout below, it's the best I can do in facebook notes)
Description¦ 2011¦ 2010¦ 2009¦ 2008¦ 2007¦
Loans to
members ¦ €135,467,881¦ €140,191,031¦ €145,577,660¦ €145,483,897¦ €130,491,221¦
Interest on
m/loans ¦ €11,117,096¦ €12,638,163¦ €14,942,284¦ €14,525,727¦ €13,217,242¦
¦ 8.2%¦ 9.0%¦ 10.3%¦ 10.0%¦ 10.1%¦
Rates cut from 10.5% to 8.45% Feb 2010
The only drop in the percentage earned by NCU is after a 10% interest rate cut in Feb 2010. These figures are all published, audited figures!!
If membership increases, then it follows that the number of savers and borrowers will also increase as NCU is a financial co-operative. Most of the borrowing is short term (2-3 years) therefore it is not the same debt all the time as suggested by your writer. The ratios and averages referred to are confusing and inaccurate and appear to be written by someone with a very limited understanding of all the issues involved. The old adage ‘A little knowledge is a (very) dangerous thing,’ has been proved by the writer of last week’s article in the Leinster Leader. Indeed Putt’s law comes to mind which states;’ we are dominated by those who understand that which they do not manage, and who manage that which they do not understand,’
Finally, I would like to restate the aim of the NCU Action group which is to demand an AGM of our members when all issues can be placed on the table for discussion. We require full disclosures of all the facts and the impact of the appointment on the shares and loan book of our credit union which the imposition of a Special manager has caused over the past 18 months. This we believe will halt the wild speculation which this appointment has fuelled as evidenced in your newspaper and elsewhere. It will provide our elected directors their democratic right to express their views to the members who elected them and allow them an opportunity to address all issues in a fair and democratic way. It is no more than the loyal staff and members of our credit union deserve.
Willie Crowley
Chairman, Newbridge Credit Union Action group
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In a nutshell "What happened why are we paying mllions to bale out this credit union"?0
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Look, the reason the AGM wasn't called was to hide the dreadful truth which is that the driver fell asleep at the wheel and was naive enough to think that the car would drive itself safely.
People on this forum need to really cop on and realize that it's so obvious who's supporting the special interests with their selective posts. Just recently on Prime Time it has been stated that the bail-out is going to be €70 million. Do you hear that? €70 million.
How can anyone in their right mind think that the government has an agenda to extract deposits from newbridge credit union. It does not make sense in this case as the bailout contradicts the potential benefits. And who would leave their money there anyways with low interest rates.
Another thing to remember is the majority of the NCU loans are secured against savings that can't be touched until their loans are fully paid and a lot of people in NCU are unable to repay in the current economic struggle. And things will get tougher after the next two to three budgets. That is money tied in and cannot be moved.
So,.... "GET A GRIP NCU Board of Director SUPPORTERS", because no matter what yee try to spin with your constant mantra of government conspiracies and so forth, yee will never fool the real people that can think for themselves and can't be brainwashed to believe that there wasn't some form of serious mismanagement within the NCU decision makers(BOD). The dog on the street knows from all the info leaking thats gone on, there are some within the NCU have a lot to answer for. Loans in the six figure and seven figure mark. Are these people really seriously suggesting that this is accepted practice? Is it O.K. for them to gamble with the ordinary NCU members institution???0 -
Looks like the 'save Newbridge cu action group' succeeded in stopping Naas CU from taking over.
Seems like they didn't think everything through properly. Now looks like the 27000 members will become customers of permanent tsb. A WIN by all accounts.
Did any of the action group members have links to the board which led the cu to the brink of collapse?
Ironic isn't: one group brought it to the brink, the next group pushed it over the edge - and both claim they were doing what was best for the members.
If they have any honour at this late stage they should go to Naas CU and beg them to reconsider their decision and to the central bank and ask them to reconsider also. Then walk away and allow the ordinary people of Newbridge to have a strong Credit Union again.0 -
Is there not the option of simply starting up a new credit union in newbridge. One that, dare I say it, is perhaps transparent, well regulated, audited properly, good directors, capitalised properly and one that carries correct provisions.
That's probably too much to ask.0 -
Seemingly it's reported that Willie and Co are proposing that a local consortium take on the debt and loan book to manage. Are these insider lunatics having a joke!!! If a local consortium takes control, whats to say that they won't make a complete hash of that too. This issue is too serious to allow some inexperienced people to manage such a huge amount of assets in any way they want. This needs to be dealt with by the Central Bank and the legislation provided so that it minimizes the complete liquidation of the Credit Union, taking all the deposits and assets with it.
Willie has put forward a proposal that's very SECRET in nature and the details are not even known. But on the other hand he has the neck to criticize the Special Manager and the minister of secrecy over the books. Hypocrite if ever there was one. And who are these consortium of people that are proposing to manage the loan book/assets? And are they hoping to get them for half nothing? And receive a bailout from the state as well? Something very dodgy if you ask me!!!
Could this be another master stroke from members within the Board of Directors to try to profit even at a stage where because of their mis-management the Newbridge Credit Union has been brought to the edge of the abyss? Why are some of the members of the Board of Directors not in jail? Why are a lot of them still there? And why is some of the senior management still there? Something smells very bad about this whole situation and i can say with certainty, that the ordinary members will get very little assistance with some troubled loans but it will be the usual suspects that will get a lot of forensic accounting maneuvering completed to achieve flexibility on their suspicious loans ( many in the 6 figure category and others in the 7 figures) off the backs of the ordinary tax person (all of us in the state).0 -
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I think it's probably for the best that it, and it's members, be put out of it's misery.Looks like the 'save Newbridge cu action group' succeeded in stopping Naas CU from taking over.
..or Naas CU looked at it and went "no way, Jose!", which frankly, it's looking more and more like.Is there not the option of simply starting up a new credit union in newbridge. One that, dare I say it, is perhaps transparent, well regulated, audited properly, good directors, capitalised properly and one that carries correct provisions.
I don't think there is anything to stop a new CU being formed.0 -
Yes, by all means, form a new one, BUT, without any of the idiots that caused the destruction of the present one ever being allowed to even make a suggestion again on any affairs of the new one. And it needs to become a member of the Irish League of Credit Unions, a thing that Newbridge BOD members neglected to assign to. I wonder why? There would have been a bit stricter oversight if they were a member.
Anyways, now they are all going to come under the stricter oversight of the appointed Boards from the Central Bank and the regulation that's there at present will prevent anything of that magnitude or mis-management from ever happening again. Hooraaaaay!:pac:
Still think there needs to be ACCOUNTABILITY, Accountability, Accountability!!! BOD members should face questions in front of the finance committee or something. Why did it get so bad?0 -
The Central Bank are going to the High Court tonight:
http://www.kfmradio.com/kfm-radio/local-news/central-banks-takes-credit-union-takeover-issue-to-high-court-today.html0 -
God, that was fast. I suppose they have to pre-empt any attempt by Willie and co to make matters worse. Tell willie to be transparent and explain on this public Forum how he and co intends to make matters better. Why the secrecy? Isn't he against that? And will Willie name all those involved in the secret consortium? Just so we can see who's who and what's what. Be open and transparent.
The sooner the matter is brought to a close the better so that every member can get a good and fair deal on their troubled debt!!!0 -
I am utterly confused as to what position to take here. I have gone from disgust at CU, to support, back to disgust.
There is so much spin and non/mis - information, it makes having an informed opinion on this impossible. I know very few people who have kept cash in the CU. There were 2 significant runs on the CU and whether we are to believe (as the action group believes) that this caused the large hole or the hole was large before the run, we are likely never to know.
We still have no report on this to this day. That said, if this goes the same route of the failed banks then we will never get a report. If PTSB takes over and takes what little assets are left, it is likely no info will be forthcoming on commercial sensitivity grounds.
I do feel this is the thin edge of the wedge as far as government/banking control of the CU sector. Maybe Newbridge deserved this but it may be a fine excuse to do the same to many other CU's. Is corporate/financial governence the same across the sector. Would be dangerous to imply this.
The only bondholders to get hit during the bank recapitalisations were the CU's and that is a fact. Reported in many papers also. Your money got hit and the taxpayers are covering this again. Is this the cause of the pain in the CU sector. Did'nt cause all of it but certainly cannot have helped the reserves on hold in the banks.
Would it be cheaper to liquidate the CU and cover each members cash up to the €100,000 that is set by the government ? Not many of those left. There were 37,000 members but that has collapsed. Liquidation would at least avoid the same scenario (albeit smaller scale) as Anglo of unknown losses.
For the record, I took all my savings out and had no loans some time ago. I left €1 in each account so I could attend any AGM which will never happen.
The Willie and Co plan to recapitalise locally has no info whatsoever and I could not see anyone supporting this. They would likely insert the same boardmembers for experience as there is great support for those same people in the save Newbridge CU action group.
The PTSB plan has no logic that I can understand.
But, in a week where the government and RTE looked worryingly at the number of loan sharks/very high interest legal loan institutions, the loss of a CU in a town would do untold damage. The banks are not giving loans to anyone and people will turn to easy short term money. We could be paying for this many years down the line.0 -
RTE reporting it has been transferred to ptsb.0
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http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1110/485858-newbridge-credit-union-ptsb/
The Central Bank has confirmed that it has transferred Newbridge Credit Union to Permanent TSB.
Permanent TSB has assumed ownership and management of the customer assets and liabilities of the credit union.
The move came following an application by the Central Bank of Ireland this evening to the High Court for a transfer order.
The transfer was required due to the financial difficulties at Newbridge Credit Union.
It followed a decision of Naas Credit Union not to proceed with its proposed merger with Newbridge Credit Union.
The move will ensure that its members' savings are protected and that no member will lose money.
All services, including deposit and lending facilities continue to be available to all members from the credit union premises which will open as normal tomorrow.0 -
badgerbroc11 wrote: »Looks like the 'save Newbridge cu action group' succeeded in stopping Naas CU from taking over.
Seems like they didn't think everything through properly. Now looks like the 27000 members will become customers of permanent tsb. A WIN by all accounts.
Did any of the action group members have links to the board which led the cu to the brink of collapse?
Ironic isn't: one group brought it to the brink, the next group pushed it over the edge - and both claim they were doing what was best for the members.
If they have any honour at this late stage they should go to Naas CU and beg them to reconsider their decision and to the central bank and ask them to reconsider also. Then walk away and allow the ordinary people of Newbridge to have a strong Credit Union again.
I think you will find Naas thought better of it rather than an action group getting their way. Very interesting that it's PTSB though. A terminally ill Credit Union being absorbed by a terminally ill bank.0 -
There's a lot of criticism of NCU, much of it I'm sure warranted, but here's how things can get as bad as they have:
1. When credit unions were small and cash was short, people deposited what they had and that was loaned out. Loans were charged at 12.68% (1% per month), the legal max.
2. Interest rates at the banks fell from the 20%+ in the 80s to the single digits now. This put pressure on CUs to reduce lending rates and/or rebate interest paid.
3. Reduction in interest received as a proportion of deposits/shares meant less money to distribute at year end. This does not make elected boards popular. At the same time CUs were expected to continue to support local institutions and events at the same or higher levels.
4. Increasing prosperity meant people started depositing larger and larger sums. Remember: deposits/shares are not assets to financial institutions, they are LIABILITIES.
5. In order to meet member expectations (rather than limiting the size of deposits) the CUs had to make larger loans to generate more distributable cash as well as investing in external products such as bonds (since cash on deposit at banks was also making buttons by now)
Basically CUs were a victim of their own success AND hubris. Rather than remain small and retain their business model of paying in dividends what they got in, they got bigger (in part to defend their territory from more aggressive clearing bank lending). They took a bath in investments that went sour, in failed IT projects (and Reichstag like headquarters) and in big loans gone bad and at the same time came under more and more regulatory pressure, pressure which many volunteer directors tried to wish away by ignoring it.
Newbridge is the first hit because CUDA was not a big enough organisation to buffer them against the Central Bank - now the ILCU knows that the CB is willing to use s45 of the Bank Resolutions Act 2011 and that the High Court will grant the orders sought even if opposed, they will likely be increasing the pressure on CUs they know are shaky to either shape up or merge.0 -
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Newbridge is the first hit because CUDA was not a big enough organisation to buffer them against the Central Bank - now the ILCU knows that the CB is willing to use s45 of the Bank Resolutions Act 2011 and that the High Court will grant the orders sought even if opposed, they will likely be increasing the pressure on CUs they know are shaky to either shape up or merge.
To be honest, that's way too simplistic a statement to make. CUDA/ICLU was the one of the least of NCU's problems0
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