The Pat Kenny Show

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

In terms of building infrastructure. Hospitals should be some of the more straightforward. The mechanics of the design are very well known within the industry and there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

This in particular is worth emphasising.

In the debate over the situation of the hospital, its worth bearing in mind that we're talking here about bricks, mortar, planning and transport. The internal equipment isn't part of the current costing, and is something of a side-issue. The input of the doctors (whether they are for or against St James's or Connolly) is certainly valuable, but I think we need to hear more from planners, architects and builders, especially those who are familiar with hospital construction.

So far, any voices I've heard on radio or TV have been fairly aghast at the St James's site, but it would be worthwhile hearing alternatives, if there are any.

mzungu

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So far, any voices I've heard on radio or TV have been fairly aghast at the St James's site, but it would be worthwhile hearing alternatives, if there are any.

As part of PR strategy, by rights they should have been sent out first (well, directly after Simon Harris) to give the public the lowdown. This would have taken the sting out of the story if they could have provided a reasonable explanation for the overrun in costs.

The most likely the explanation is that the costs are not reasonable and they can't find anybody with credibility to go out and try and spin it.

BarryD2

Youdunnit wrote: »

Not an expert on this but the argument goes that the patient has to travel to get the experts

Well there you go and perhaps the real answer as to why James is the chosen site. The tail wagging the dog. Surely the role of these experts is to serve the needs of the greater Irish public rather than the other way around?

Youdunnit

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well there you go and perhaps the real answer as to why James is the chosen site. The tail wagging the dog. Surely the role of these experts is to serve the needs of the greater Irish public rather than the other way around?

They don't serve and won't travel is the explanation

Out in a Greenfield site patient care would be diminished by this

plodder

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So far, any voices I've heard on radio or TV have been fairly aghast at the St James's site, but it would be worthwhile hearing alternatives, if there are any.

That's just the nature of "opposition". You only hear the negative voices when things are being built and there's nothing but problems to talk about. When it's built and it opens, all those voices will melt away as if they never existed.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

That's just the nature of "opposition". You only hear the negative voices when things are being built and there's nothing but problems to talk about. When it's built and it opens, all those voices will melt away as if they never existed.

That might make sense if the radio discussions were all one-sided. The fact is there are plenty of medics who favour and who oppose the St James's site.

What is really curious, to my mind, is that there seem to be no construction experts (builders, engineers, planners etc) who are speaking out in favour of the Saint James's site.

The medical facilities are a matter for the clinical experts. But what we're talking about here is construction and planning, and the only people who seem to be defending the hospital on that basis are not competent in those sectors.

Perhaps Simon Harris has started an open university course in construction, and perhaps he even intends to complete it. But so far, the dearth of experts defending St James's is a cause of concern.

plodder

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That might make sense if the radio discussions were all one-sided. The fact is there are plenty of medics who favour and who oppose the St James's site.

What is really curious, to my mind, is that there seem to be no construction experts (builders, engineers, planners etc) who are speaking out in favour of the Saint James's site.

The medical facilities are a matter for the clinical experts. But what we're talking about here is construction and planning, and the only people who seem to be defending the hospital on that basis are not competent in those sectors.

Perhaps Simon Harris has started an open university course in construction, and perhaps he even intends to complete it. But so far, the dearth of experts defending St James's is a cause of concern.

There was multiple reports/studies done on the location and the conclusion was that it should be co-located with an adult teaching hospital and James came out as the best location (after the Mater). What do those people have to gain from going on the radio to defend their decision? Not much. The decision is made. It's not going to be changed.

The only medics who I hear opposing it still are associated with "losing" hospitals. The project had to be approved by the planners and I'd be surprised at planners being opposed to a city centre site. Builders/engineers will build whatever they are asked to build wherever. I don't think their opinion is of any particular value on where it should be located (unless they were able to tell us before hand that St James was going to be a much expensive site to build on and I don't recall anyone saying that).

plodder

plodder wrote: »

There was multiple reports/studies done on the location and the conclusion was that it should be co-located with an adult teaching hospital and James came out as the best location (after the Mater).

According to whom? Have you actually read the Dolphin Report?

I don't think their opinion is of any particular value on where it should be located

You don't think the views of independent experts in the field of construction is relevant when it comes to the biggest single building project ever constructed in this state -- one of the most expensive buildings ever built?

That's precisely the kind of attitude which is bound to see the cost of building this hospital continue to rise.

plodder

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

According to whom? Have you actually read the Dolphin Report?

Dolphin said that from an academic and clinical perspective St. James was the best. There was more space available at other locations, but it seems to me that clinical factors are more important than the amount of space available.

You don't think the views of independent experts in the field of construction is relevant when it comes to the biggest single building project ever constructed in this state -- one of the most expensive buildings ever built?

That's precisely the kind of attitude which is bound to see the cost of building this hospital continue to rise.

Of course they had plenty of professional advice from architects who you would expect to know about building costs.

My point was just that builders and engineers will build whatever you ask them to build. The problem with the cost overrun has more to do with the nature of the contract, the fact it was split into two stages, and we were committed to it before we knew about the overrun. Why couldn't they have put the whole thing out for a fixed price tender? My guess is that they were under time pressure for whatever reason and were at the mercy of the winning bidder for any changes made after the award. If the same type of contract was used at one of the other sites, there could just as easily have been the same overrun.

Youdunnit

At least part of the problem with firing it out for tender is the design was incomplete or incompetent if you wish to be unkind, so costs are guaranteed to overrun

Also there was the option of co-location on a greenfield city site, build the lot from scratch

plodder

plodder wrote: »

Dolphin said that from an academic and clinical perspective St. James was the best.

Where in the report does it say this?

The report said that St James's has the widest range of specialties - then goes on to say that this must be balanced against site restrictions.

Throughout the report, an emphasis is placed on the optimal prospect of a tri-located hospital complex. You cannot possibly read the report, and the several concerns it expresses about the St James's site (costs, traffic, limited capacity for further expansion, constraints on expansion of adult services on the site, planning, etc) and come away with the idea that it offers the best site on which to build a tri-located hospital.

A tri-located hospital is the most serious clinical objective, and that has been seriously compromised by the current choice of site. Most of the experts I've heard discussing this on radio and in the media seem to doubt that a maternity hospital will ever manage to be crammed into the St James's site.

plodder

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Where in the report does it say this?

Dolphin wrote:

"From a clinical and academic perspective, we identified St James’s Hospital as the existingDATH that best meets the criteria to be the adult partner in co-location because it has the broadest range of national specialties and excellent research and education infrastructure. However, the proposed St. James’s Hospital plan offers the smallest site for construction of the new children’s hospital, albeit with greater site capacity overall (seeTable 1 on page 48), has some drawbacks in terms of site suitability and is not without planning risk."

The report said that St James's has the widest range of specialties - then goes on to say that this must be balanced against site restrictions.

Throughout the report, an emphasis is placed on the optimal prospect of a tri-located hospital complex. You cannot possibly read the report, and the several concerns it expresses about the St James's site (costs, traffic, limited capacity for further expansion, constraints on expansion of adult services on the site, planning, etc) and come away with the idea that it offers the best site on which to build a tri-located hospital.

A tri-located hospital is the most serious clinical objective, and that has been seriously compromised by the current choice of site. Most of the experts I've heard discussing this on radio and in the media seem to doubt that a maternity hospital will ever manage to be crammed into the St James's site.

Where else could you have got a tri-located site? The Coombe is only a short distance away.

Dolphin said that Connolly would take "several decades" to reach the same level of clinical and research excellence as St James .

serfboard

Is there any chance we could get away from the finer points of the location of a hospital in Dublin and get back to regular programming?

serfboard

serfboard wrote: »

Is there any chance we could get away from the finer points of the location of a hospital in Dublin and get back to regular programming?

Yeah, that's fair enough; this discussion is regular programming on the PK Show, though!

I think it's been mentioned before, and I believe it, that Pat is making this topic/ scandal (depending on your outlook) his journalistic legacy before he retires.

serfboard

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that's fair enough; this discussion is regular programming on the PK Show, though!

Yep, I get that - and other threads often veer off into tangents while discussing topics on the show.

But, ye've had four or five pages now folks, is that not enough?:)

Back to the show, there was a very interesting topic this morning about a house in Tipperary that was being prepared for Travellers and that was severely damaged.

The local PP called it a hate crime - and it's hard to disagree with him on that.

Youdunnit

plodder wrote: »

Where else could you have got a tri-located site? The Coombe is only a short distance away.

Dolphin said that Connolly would take "several decades" to reach the same level of clinical and research excellence as St James .

The whole lot could.have been moved

They did it in Glasgow at a fraction of the cost and to a much higher spec

Tell me how

serfboard wrote: »

Yep, I get that - and other threads often veer off into tangents while discussing topics on the show.

But, ye've had four or five pages now folks, is that not enough?:)

Back to the show, there was a very interesting topic this morning about a house in Tipperary that was being prepared for Travellers and that was severely damaged.

The local PP called it a hate crime - and it's hard to disagree with him on that.

I find that type of behaviour and that of those burning hotels for refugees as the work of some of the bitterest hateful people in our society.

They use phrases like "we should look out for our own first" or "there's plenty Irish people who need help" and I would bet that they as individuals never reach out to help anyone other than themselves.

Uncharted

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yeah, that's fair enough; this discussion is regular programming on the PK Show, though!

I think it's been mentioned before, and I believe it, that Pat is making this topic/ scandal (depending on your outlook) his journalistic legacy before he retires.

Has Pat Kenny mentioned retirement?
I hope not.
Personally,I can't see him leaving a life of media. It's intertwined in his DNA at this stage.

Uncharted

Uncharted wrote: »

Has Pat Kenny mentioned retirement?
I hope not.
Personally,I can't see him leaving a life of media. It's intertwined in his DNA at this stage.

You're right, he doesn't quite seem like the retiring type (literally and figuratively speaking!)

I notice that Kevin Roche, the renowned Irish architect responsible for some of the most beautiful buildings in New York and along the East Coast, died last week at the age of 96.he was almost 90 when he designed the Convention Centre in Dublin, and kept working right into his 90s, dismissing retirement as a new-fangled notion.

If Pat takes the same approach (knocks on wood), we may get another 20 years out of him

Uncharted

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You're right, he doesn't quite seem like the retiring type (literally and figuratively speaking!)

I notice that Kevin Roche, the renowned Irish architect responsible for some of the most beautiful buildings in New York and along the East Coast, died last week at the age of 96.he was in his 90s when he designed the Convention Centre in Dublin, and dismissed retirement as a new-fangled notion.

If Pat takes the same approach (knocks on wood), we may get another 20 years out of him

We can only hope.
Pat Kenny is a titan of Irish media,and hands down,the best political interviewer in the country.
There is nobody I can think of,capable of attempting to fill his shoes.

Uncharted

Uncharted wrote: »

We can only hope.
Pat Kenny is a titan of Irish media,and hands down,the best political interviewer in the country.
There is nobody I can think of,capable of attempting to fill his shoes.

I agree. Sharpest, most analytical mind in Irish radio by a country míle.

I would say that Vincent Browne came close in some ways, although only in terms of political analysis. His retirement, too, was a major loss to Irish current affairs broadcasting.

mzungu

Uncharted wrote: »

We can only hope.
Pat Kenny is a titan of Irish media,and hands down,the best political interviewer in the country.
There is nobody I can think of,capable of attempting to fill his shoes.

Aye. It used to kill me when he was on the LLS. His bread and butter is the cut and thrust of politics. During those years RTE wasted him by having him interview Z-list celebs. He wasn't comfortable at all.

I think he has stepped things up a gear since he went to Newstalk. I'd say he is enjoying it a lot more, too.

hotmail.com

Uncharted wrote:

We can only hope. Pat Kenny is a titan of Irish media,and hands down,the best political interviewer in the country. There is nobody I can think of,capable of attempting to fill his shoes.

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

Tell me how

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

I disagree completely.

hotmail.com

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

I disagree, although some fundamental questions do remain unanswered, and we can't just ignore them because nobody's found a solution.

Northern Ireland and its Backstop is an obvious example. You don't just move on from that because it hasn't been solved, for fear of repeating yourself.

How is PK any different to Seán Ó Rourke, in that context?

jharr100

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

Couldn't disagree more, he's a fantastic broadcaster, if anything he has improved and matured over time.

mzungu

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

His job is asking questions. Those questions need to be answered. If there are times when he asks the same questions over and over then that usually means he is not happy with the obfuscation of the interviewee(s) and wishes to press them further.

Uncharted

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

Nonsense.
Pat Kenny takes a hold of the matters of the day in his own inimitable style.
His approach is certainly more pointed and mercenary since he set up camp in Newstalk towers. Pat seems more free to express opinion at Newstalk.
This imo is only a good thing.

It just so happens that Brexit and the new children's hospital are two of the most important topics of the day.
So it stands to reason that Pat will constantly discuss said issues.

Long live Pat Kenny.

Technocentral

Uncharted wrote: »

hotmail.com wrote: »

I'm a Pat fan usually, but he's well passed his best. Asks the same questions on Brexit, makes the same points repeatedly.

He's quickly becoming the old cranky man of radio.

Nonsense.
Pat Kenny takes a hold of the matters of the day in his own inimitable style.
His approach is certainly more pointed and mercenary since he set up camp in Newstalk towers. Pat seems more free to express opinion at Newstalk.
This imo is only a good thing.

It just so happens that Brexit and the new children's hospital are two of the most important topics of the day.
So it stands to reason that Pat will constantly discuss said issues.

Long live Pat Kenny.

Best show on Irish radio. "Haters gonna hate" as De Valera once said.

elperello

Technocentral wrote: »

Best show on Irish radio. "Haters gonna hate" as De Valera once said.

That would be Rocky De Valera I presume