The Pat Kenny Show

RINO87

Cole wrote: »

Fairly brazen move there...shoehorning in a recording from home and having a go at the planners while having chatting with Paul Harrington.

I found this bloody hilarious!! Rockbreakers!!

jay0109

The bit on the rockbreakers near his house was bizarre
"Obviously the people who give permission for this to happen don't care about the residents who live there"

He's so anti-planning/construction because of his own personal experiences that it really colours everything he covers these days. He's put Frank McDonald in the ha'penny place

PopePalpatine

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Any chance to take a pop at the planners. That was great.

...if you're worried that there'll be more supply to compete against that REIT you invested in.

Never found myself having to mute Pat Kenny until yesterday. He's a beacon of sense in normal times. Despite the flak he takes about antigen testing, he's dead right; and he was right in his campaign on the Children Hospital.

But fetishizing the Brussels Police, in what I can only describe, in my best diplomatic attempt, as a hard-on for police violence; and repeatedly caviling about 'yobs' or 'yobbos'?

Pat Kenny is at his best when he is surgically and rationally dissecting problems of policy. The notion that we suddenly have a 'yob problem' on our hands is so facile, so frankly, ignorant, that I cannot listen to him.

He's encouraging theose foaming reationaries on social media who are getting very excited about police charging down South William Street, that little garden of bohemia, with their truncheons swinging. It's all ignorance and anger. asking no intelligent questions.

It's Pat Kenny at his absolute worst, generating more heat than light.

Cole

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Never found myself having to mute Pat Kenny until yesterday. He's a beacon of sense in normal times. Despite the flak he takes about antigen testing, he's dead right; and he was right in his campaign on the Children Hospital.

And maybe he's right about this too...in having a strong police response to the minority who are not interested in gathering and socialising in a responsible way, but are only intent on causing grief and trouble for business owners, residents, fellow citizens and the Gardai.

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's all ignorance and anger. asking no intelligent questions.

I'm sure the Gardai can use the whole engage, educate and encourage approach with many of those gathering in Dublin city centre, but what intelligent questions do you have in mind to ask of those (minority) who are causing criminal damage, assault and intimidation?

Cole

Cole wrote: »

I'm sure the Gardai can use the whole engage, educate and encourage approach with many of those gathering in Dublin city centre, but what intelligent questions do you have in mind to ask of those (minority) who are causing criminal damage, assault and intimidation?

I am not expecting those particular rampaging Guards to ask any intelligent questions, I am realistic on that count.

The people who manage the city, at an Executive and Political (council) level, have often professed that crime has its origins in the way society is organised. That is correct.

We are overloaded with reports about the solutions to crime that actually work, and we know which policies tend to alienate.

Community policing works, more Gardai works, youth diversion works; so do employment and recreational opportunities.
Charging young lads with batons just for drinking cans, on the steps of a pedestrian street -- that doesn't just alienate and radicaliise those lads, it destroys the massive amount of good work that dozens of community Guards have undertaken in working-class communities, doing the policies that have been shown to work.

We can do one of two things.

We can improve the community policing work that has been undertaken by Gardai, which Pat Kenny dismissively calls 'flat-cap policing', or we can take his Brussels suggestion, towards Gardai 'dressed for war'.

Most reasonable people instinctively know that bashing young men with police batons isn't good for the community. It is not an intelligent policy, it is a proven failure.

We can have blockhead police, or we can have flat-cap police. The guards can only have one reputation.

meeeeh

What is the value of reputation if people are afraid to go into the area, if businesses can't operate and if business owners end up in a&e.

Also what's the value of young girl's life when she ends on train tracks because thuggish young men and boys should not be made uncomfortable by Guards. That girl was lucky someone else might not be.

I'm not sure community policing is working for general public, beaten up businesses owners and girls on train tracks. However the only group that counts seem to be working area boys. We can't discommode them.

Tell me how

meeeeh wrote: »

What is the value of reputation if people are afraid to go into the area, if businesses can't operate and if business owners end in a&e.

Also what's the value of young girl's life when she ends on train tracks because thuggish young men and boys should not be made uncomfortable by Guards. That girl was lucky someone else might not be.

I'm not sure community policing is working for general public, beaten up businesses owners and girls on train tracks.

Were the Gardai to adopt a more forceful form of policing, do you think, over time, it would make society more or less violent?
One concern is that instead of being 'scared straight' people will become more violent themselves both to defend themselves or because they subconsciously feel that that is acceptable.

Personally I think that policing cannot solve issues of people having scant regard for others or property. If that sense of decency isn't held by people by the time they reach their late teens, 20's it's already an issue and too late to expect them to change.
Respect for others and the society in which you live starts from a very young age and should be communicated both in the home and in school or sporting or club environments.

(That's ignoring for a second that all this has escalated because of the mismanagement of transitioning back to a normal society by most parties involved and particularly the government and the councils who dropped the ball in preparing to facilitate people.)

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

What is the value of reputation if people are afraid to go into the area, if businesses can't operate and if business owners end up in a&e.

But people are clearly unafraid to visit the area. I thought that was part of the problem, South William St. was thronged in spite of the so-called 'yobs'.

The area was thriving because businesses were open.

Also what's the value of young girl's life when she ends on train tracks because thuggish young men and boys should not be made uncomfortable by Guards. That girl was lucky someone else might not be.

Obviously, the use of violence is completely justified when life or serious injury is at stake.

Drinking cans on the steps of a hairdressers', after hours, not so much.

An hysterical public reaction to last weekend -- including, I suggest, that of Pat Kenny's -- informed the farcical police response.

meeeeh

It's a lot less of a problem if you are not a hairdresser who is washing bodily fluids off their premises. I know there is a lot of pent up anger around but I'm not sure molly cuddling people who cause damage and intimidate others is the answer. I've been to plenty of street events, I'm from part of Europe that's pretty fond of outdoor celebrations with alcohol. I'm not saying there are no issues but those causing trouble are usually not just asked nicely to move along.

I have no issue with people drinking outside, however some rules have to apply.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

It's a lot less of a problem if you are not a hairdresser who is washing bodily fluids off their premises.

Very well, that's a pretty bad state of affairs, but we are talking about the Guards running down the street thrashing their batons against people.

There is a principle in our law which is called proportionality.

The community Guards do such amazing work in their areas, and this is coming under threat by the public-order brigade. I don't really care about the young guys who got beaten up, to be honest, I am concerned that Public-Order policing has done great damage to the reputation of the Community Guards in the areas where they are most needed.

whisky_galore

If you throw glass bottles at cops in any other country you'll get a few well deserved smacks.
I dont see why Gardai have to turn the other cheek and put up with that bullsh1t.

meeeeh

They shouldn't. Tolerating this kind of behaviour just means people who can will move out of the areas where it's happening and it will make problems even worse and inequality bigger. We can pat ourselves on the back how we have friendly guards and most of us come into contact with trouble makers only when they invade city centres. You have parts of city whe taxi drivers won't go, where shops are set on fire, where post isn't delivered. That's not community policing that works.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

They shouldn't. Tolerating this kind of behaviour just means people who can will move out of the areas where it's happening and it will make problems even worse and inequality bigger. We can pat ourselves on the back how we have friendly guards and most of us come into contact with trouble makers only when they invade city centres.

Come on meeeeh, you're smart, why is there a suddenly a violent conflict with Guards, after one week of media hysteria about people gathering on south william street?

There has been an unrelenting public outcry for more forceful policing over the past seven days, starting with Tony Holohan, and ending with Pat Kenny calling for policemen 'dressed for war'. This is the result.

No material facts have changed, Dublin youth haven't suddenly become aggressive by accident. When the Guards come in with shields and batons, some young men lay down the gauntlet (or the glass bottle). That's inevitable, and predictable.

They should have been left alone. This hostility was not necessary. People were pissing in doorways, OK. It wasn't as bad as having guards and young people injuring one another.

I hope Pat is satisfied now.

meeeeh

I think media hysteria happened because nobody should be forced to live and work among piles of rubbish and feces. To close their business early because it isn't for staff. Who is community policing supposed to work for.

I find Pat Kenny tiring with his outrage but in some cases aggressive action is needed.

Cole

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

They should have been left alone. This hostility was not necessary. People were pissing in doorways, OK. It wasn't as bad as having guards and young people injuring one another.

Your posts are addressing long term policing policies...community policing etc. and that's all good...but certain situations need direct action. No offence, but your posts seem very naive and the quote above is just ridiculous imo.

Edit: I don't necessarily mean direct action as "baton charging", but you don't just turn a blind eye...and sometimes a bit of stick is needed with the carrot.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I think media hysteria happened because nobody should be forced to live and work among piles of rubbish and feces. To close their business early because it isn't for staff. Who is community policing supposed to work for.

I find Pat Kenny tiring with his outrage but in some cases aggressive action is needed.

But meeeeh they are willingly, profitably opening their businesses to these young people. The rubbish situation can be better solved with crowd control and portaloos, not with policemen charging down a street looking like fools.

Worse than fools, destroying a reasonably good reputation among an already disaffected youth. The media have created this sensationalist drive for aggressive policing, and now what do we have? 200 young people who now hate the Guards. Great work, bound to improve quality of life in the city.

EmmetSpiceland

It’s hard to see how this wasn’t expected by the councils. Heavy handed policing isn’t going to help matters.

The weekends should nearly be run like a Paddy’s Day type set up. Keep cars out of certain areas, like college green, and have barriers and stewards directing “footfall”.

Squeezing hundreds of people onto to narrow streets, like south William street is always going to lead to problems.

Cole

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s hard to see how this wasn’t expected by the councils. Heavy handed policing isn’t going to help matters.

The weekends should nearly be run like a Paddy’s Day type set up. Keep cars out of certain areas, like college green, and have barriers and stewards directing “footfall”.

Squeezing hundreds of people onto to narrow streets, like south William street is always going to lead to problems.

I agree with the lack of planning (and the Gardai probably have some questions to answer there too), but they have to react at some point and sometimes the softly, softly approach just doesn't work...for a minority.

meeeeh

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But meeeeh they are willingly, profitably opening their businesses to these young people. The rubbish situation can be better solved with crowd control and portaloos, not with policemen charging down a street looking like fools.

Worse than fools, destroying a reasonably good reputation among an already disaffected youth. The media have created this sensationalist drive for aggressive policing, and now what do we have? 200 young people who now hate the Guards. Great work, bound to improve quality of life in the city.

Those 200 young people were gunning for some action. They were hoping to get it and if the bottles weren't flying at guards they would be flying into shop windows.

EmmetSpiceland

Cole wrote: »

I agree with the lack of planning (and the Gardai probably have some questions to answer there too), but they have to react at some point and sometimes the softly, softly approach just doesn't work...for a minority.

But they didn’t do anything positive. They marched in and got a bad reaction. Had there been a better setup in place people could have moved more freely and still have a good day out.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Those 200 young people were gunning for some action. They were hoping to get it and if the bottles weren't flying at guards they would be flying into shop windows.

Then why wasn't that already happening? I heard Pat Kenny make a lot of hysterical statements over the past week, but I didn't hear anything about broken windows, or any criminal damage at all.

It's true, there are always 200 young men ready to react. So a good policy might be to engage/ disperse them, and not swing batons at them.

Sunday now. We have had precisely one week of media hysteria, and the use of police violence. Looking back on the past 48 hours, what positive changes has the city observed?

meeeeh

Bins. At least the ones not set on fire.

It can't be free for all. An individual was injured that was kot connected to the gangs. Street drinking can be perfectly safe but it has to be strictly regulated. Usually organisers bring their own bouncers, there are no organisers here.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Bins. At least the ones not set on fire.

It can't be free for all. An individual was injured that was kot connected to the gangs. Street drinking can be perfectly safe but it has to be strictly regulated. Usually organisers bring their own bouncers, there are no organisers here.

Mmm. Those bins were in place yesterday. I think the problem of rubbish had been significantly resolved before the the Guards came on the scene.

You're right, it can't be a free-for-all; and a strong Garda presence is welcome. Nobody should be putting up with anti-social behaviour, it's just that the response should be carefully thought-through.

We are not, in this country, used to seeing Guards with shields and batons, 'dressed for war'. We don't admit that kind of policing, that's for other countries. Let Pat Kenny go there, if he badly wants it.

EmmetSpiceland

A Lamb Named Miltiades! wrote: »

We are not, in this country, used to seeing Guards with shields and batons, 'dressed for war'. We don't admit that kind of policing, that's for other countries. Let Pat Kenny go there, if he badly wants it.

Definitely not needed. If it was a “protest” then fair enough, fail to prepare etc., but for this sort of outdoor gathering having a larger space and supervision is all that’s needed.

As for the bins, even having those loads of those steel frames with a bin bag in them would useful. Or even giving a bin bag to each group to use for their “empties”. Tell them to leave them at a designated area when they’re full. Festival tactics.

It wasnt me123

Since when did drinking on the streets become the norm - why has no-one closed down the pubs service take-always in cups - make them pay for the clean up.

If the people congregating in the streets want to meet up in a group, why not go to St Stephens Green, Phoenix Park - somewhere with loads of space, nobody has the right to stop a business from trading, intimidate customers and others going about their busness - why are they drinking so much that they have to urinate in the streets - throw rubbish everywhere. I’d block off the streets to the deckers aand make them go somewhere else and make the pubs who are making money of this nonsense pay for it.

EmmetSpiceland

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

If the people congregating in the streets want to meet up in a group, why not go to St Stephens Green, Phoenix Park - somewhere with loads of space, nobody has the right to stop a business from trading, intimidate customers and others going about their busness - why are they drinking so much that they have to urinate in the streets - throw rubbish everywhere. I’d block off the streets to the deckers aand make them go somewhere else and make the pubs who are making money of this nonsense pay for it.

From what I heard the cops booted people out of Stephen’s Green and locked it up.

If we want an “outdoor” summer we need to set up areas for it. Dublin City centre has lots of room and places that could be closed to cars. People could buy their cans, pints or coffees and move over to them.

Tell me how

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

From what I heard the cops booted people out of Stephen’s Green and locked it up.

If we want an “outdoor” summer we need to set up areas for it. Dublin City centre has lots of room and places that could be closed to cars. People could buy their cans, pints or coffees and move over to them.

Hard to argue with that.
I'd go even further. Last year saw the cancellation of all festivals and outdoors of events, there are thousands of people and probably 100's of companies with experience in running these types of affairs.

When the government simultaenously asked people to think outside this summer they should have asked the next obvious question of where, and using what facilities and engaged some of these companies to manage certain locations.

This has grown in to a fiasco because of mismanagement from the outset but then exacerbated by people with either no sense of responsibility themselves, or a smaller number actively look to cause trouble.

End result? Very unpleasant for everyone involved.

It wasnt me123

Sure but the pubs and cafes etc are only allowed to open this week to outdoor dining and maybe starting Monday there will be facilities available. The fact is these pubs are making easy money with no consequences - selling beer to young people with no bins, toilets is irresponsible.

It wasnt me123

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

The fact is these pubs are making easy money with no consequences - selling beer to young people with no bins, toilets is irresponsible.

It's not the fault of the pubs; there were plenty of guys buying beers in Londis on Grafton and Aungier Streets, I bet only a small proportion of the revellers were buying pints in pubs in the Grafton St. area. Why would anyone pay 4x the price of a pint ?

DCC should have followed the example of the galleries. Fence the area off, and admit people only if they have a valid ticket, pre-booked (free of charge). Give 3 or 4 tickets per booking. Provide adequate bins and toilet facilities.

That isn't a complete solution, but will go a long way in solving the problem. It's better than bashing people with truncheons.