Giving way to buses

cython

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I find buses around here make there own right of way. Feck them I say. I am paying enough to enjoy my own space (in the car and not the road, I don't own the road, yet).

I can sympathise with this to an extent, as I have seen several instances (on the south quays especially) whereby bus drivers will have a car alongside them (about halfway up the side of the bus), and because their bus lane is ending they will decide to indicate out and indeed start moving out on top of the car. It is one thing to give to the bus if you are still behind it, but a bus driver can go f*ck themselves if they think that they should have the right to effectively force someone backwards in their progress - wait until they have passed and then move out safely like any good driver!

corktina

if the car is half way up the side of the bus, then the bus is in front and should have priority in a merging situation.

cython

corktina wrote: »

if the car is half way up the side of the bus, then the bus is in front and should have priority in a merging situation.

Not if there's a yield triangle at the end of the bus lane, as there is on many bus lanes, though perhaps not on the quays - pretty simply concept.

Not to mention that half was a crude estimate, and in at least one of these cases when I was driving the indicator on the side of the bus (not the rear) only started flashing when I was pretty much in line with it - that is giving no proper notice of the intent to manoeuvre, so again, they can piss off.

SeanW

markpb wrote: »

Even a quick glance will tell you that everyone is discussing the right-of-way of a bus *once it has started indicating out*. Don't let your problem with IWH stop you from actually reading the thread before replying.

It's becoming more and more clear that you may have jumped to conclusions. Not only did IWHs initial response clearly indicate a lack of sympathy for a driver stuck behind a bus that was stopped to pick up and discharge passengers, raising the question, but ...

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Different jurisdictions will have different arrangements and laws. Not all will be perfect, and I guess there is scope for mutual learning.

Which in IWH speak means that Ireland should import every motorist hostile idea from anywhere else, while proposing some new ones at home (like our punitive road tax and VRT smash and grab systems). Does that include UK style bus stop "bus boarders"/"build outs?"

The policy objective should be to prioritise the most space and energy efficient transport modes, imo, in terms of both legislaton and infrastructure.

Like they're doing in the United Kingdom?

If I am wrong about this - and I genuinely hope I am - let IWH clearly and unambiguously explain this, preferably explaining why in detail.

bmaxi

The whole idea of bus lanes is to shorten bus journey times, so logically buses coming out of bus lanes should always have priority or any advantage
is lost. As usual in Ireland, these things are introduced in a ham fisted way, more for visual than practical effect, politicians showing how advanced in thinking they are without considering the full picture. It's easy to paint lines on roads when they mean fcuk all, for instance, I can never understand why bicycles are allowed to share bus lanes, they should have a dedicated lane to themselves although, having said that, they probably wouldn't use them. Just the other day I came across three buses stuck behind a bicycle in the bus lane on Stillorgan Road, even though there is a perfectly good cycle lane on the footpath. Proper penalties and a modicum of enforcement would solve a lot of our traffic congestion problems but apparently there are only two road traffic offences on the statute books, ironically the two which are most easily detected with the minimum of effort.

dowlingm

the better that buses work the more passengers who have a choice to drive will take it the better it is for motorists who have no option.

Public transport priority is not of itself hostility to motorists.

MagicMarker

dowlingm wrote: »

the better that buses work the more passengers who have a choice to drive will take it the better it is for motorists who have no option.

Public transport priority is not of itself hostility to motorists.

I've read this a few times now and still have no idea what it says.

galwaycyclist

MagicMarker wrote: »

I've read this a few times now and still have no idea what it says.

It says that motorists who object to other transport modes getting prioriy are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot.

corktina

yep, speed up the buses, take cars off the road as their drivers switch to buses and it frees up road space for those who don't have a choice of mode of transport (wasn't very clear though)

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

If I am wrong about this - and I genuinely hope I am - let IWH clearly and unambiguously explain this, preferably explaining why in detail.

The silence from certain quarters is deafening :rolleyes:

corktina

UK style bus boarders are surely there to allow low floor, wheelchair accessible buses to pull up correctly on their raised areas.

keith16

Sometimes a bus indicates to pull out but then just sits there because some dickhead passenger is trying to find 5c or is asking the driver for a fùcking guided tour to their stop.

That's very annoying.

paddyland

cython wrote: »

I can sympathise with this to an extent, as I have seen several instances (on the south quays especially) whereby bus drivers will have a car alongside them (about halfway up the side of the bus), and because their bus lane is ending they will decide to indicate out and indeed start moving out on top of the car. It is one thing to give to the bus if you are still behind it, but a bus driver can go f*ck themselves if they think that they should have the right to effectively force someone backwards in their progress - wait until they have passed and then move out safely like any good driver!

If you cannot judge far enough in advance that the bus lane beside you is ending shortly, and manage to plonk yourself right alongside the bus just at the point where he is going to need to pull into your lane, then you have pretty poor forward observation, and pretty poor courtesy towards other road users.

Unless of course you do know the bus will be needing to pull out, and deliberately place yourself so he has to bring ten tonnes of metal to a needless stop. In which case you are an ass.

Iwannahurl

Correct.

Ten tonnes of metal also carrying a much larger number of people, most likely (perhaps up to 100 times as many passengers as are in a typical private car).

Even if there isn't a law requiring us to cede priority to public transport, ordinary road manners and a bit of cop-on ought to tell us what to do. If there is room up ahead to pass by the bus, and if you're not breaking the law or discommoding other road users to do so, then by all means pass out the bus. But if you can't clear the bus then for the luvva god don't pull up alongside it and block its exit. What's wrong with hanging back a bit to give the bus a bit of room and make life a bit easier for both driver and passengers? Unless one is indeed an ass in which case no fecks at all are given about such things.

_Kaiser_

paddyland wrote: »

If you cannot judge far enough in advance that the bus lane beside you is ending shortly, and manage to plonk yourself right alongside the bus just at the point where he is going to need to pull into your lane, then you have pretty poor forward observation, and pretty poor courtesy towards other road users.

Unless of course you do know the bus will be needing to pull out, and deliberately place yourself so he has to bring ten tonnes of metal to a needless stop. In which case you are an ass.

So you're driving alongside a bus (let's say a double-decker as that's what most of them are), but not level with the cab, in traffic and you can somehow see through it to see where its lane ends?

Besides, if a bus has to merge into your lane, it should be the one to give way to traffic already there.. not vice versa. Sure, if there's opportunity to let the bus in ahead of you then you should do so but not if it means dropping anchor because the driver decides to force his way in anyway as you are alongside.

There's pretty poor observation and being an ass alright but it's not the car driver in the above scenario!

beauf

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ah yes I forgot that point.. poor lane/junction design is another big issue..

Take that stretch of quays northbound by Heuston where the lanes are reduced for about 50m for no apparent reason?! (and which most ignore anyway by driving over the hatch markings)....

Makes no sense to me either. Causes constant tail backs anytime it gets busy.

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Correct.

Ten tonnes of metal also carrying a much larger number of people, most likely (perhaps up to 100 times as many passengers as are in a typical private car).

Even if there isn't a law requiring us to cede priority to public transport, ordinary road manners and a bit of cop-on ought to tell us what to do. If there is room up ahead to pass by the bus, and if you're not breaking the law or discommoding other road users to do so, then by all means pass out the bus. But if you can't clear the bus then for the luvva god don't pull up alongside it and block its exit. What's wrong with hanging back a bit to give the bus a bit of room and make life a bit easier for both driver and passengers? Unless one is indeed an ass in which case no fecks at all are given about such things.

So your argument essentially is - "mine's bigger so I have more right to be on the road"

Assuming there's 2 lanes here.. a dedicated bus lane, and a lane for other traffic, you're saying that traffic in that other lane should never pass a bus on the off-chance it might decide to pull out in front of/on top of you? What if it pulls in to let people on/off? Should everyone else stop too until it's ready to move off again.

A bus lane is an exclusive strip of road for buses to proceed without being affected by traffic in other lanes (in theory anyway ). However, if the bus needs to join traffic in those other lanes, IT is the one that should give way until a safe opportunity arises for it to merge - or the opportunity is offered by other drivers (which to be fair, is still most people)

What if a car decides to cut down along the bus lane and then decides to force it's way back in at the top of the queue of traffic? Should they be accommodated too?

Iwannahurl

beauf wrote: »

Makes no sense to me either. Causes constant tail backs anytime it gets busy.

What causes tailbacks is too much traffic. Public transport doesn't cause congestion, it alleviates it.

Take 100 passengers off a double-decker bus and put them in their own cars and you've instantly created a 500 metre bumper-to-bumper tailback. The bus might be only 10-12 metres in length.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So your argument essentially is - "mine's bigger so I have more right to be on the road"

[...]

A bus lane is an exclusive strip of road for buses to proceed without being affected by traffic in other lanes (in theory anyway ). However, if the bus needs to join traffic in those other lanes, IT is the one that should give way until a safe opportunity arises for it to merge - or the opportunity is offered by other drivers (which to be fair, is still most people)

What if a car decides to cut down along the bus lane and then decides to force it's way back in at the top of the queue of traffic? Should they be accommodated too?

No, my argument is that public transport should be prioritised because it is vastly more space and energy efficient. Buses should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers in cars to be let out. There ought to be a law compelling motorists to do that, and it should be enforced. Bus lane abusers should be fined and given penalty points.

Is your argument essentially that "the majority rules"?

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

No, my argument is that public transport should be prioritised because it is vastly more space and energy efficient. Buses should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers in cars to be let out. There ought to be a law compelling motorists to do that, and it should be enforced. Bus lane abusers should be fined and given penalty points.

Is your argument essentially that "the majority rules"?

Actually, in the bit you highlighted I was referring to the fact that most drivers will still let others (including buses!) in/out where the opportunity allows.

But you have a point too. The bus service in Dublin (and it's worse again outside the city) doesn't work for many/most? people for several reasons - scheduling (particularly at weekends or off-peak/late night.. not everyone works Mon-Fri, 9-5), rambling routes through every housing estate it passes, the insistence of running everything through "An Lar" (why for example would I take a bus to get from Sandyford to Blanch via the centre of town and 90 mins+ when I could just take the M50 and be there in 20 mins. This is just one of many examples), anti-social behavior with little will to do anything about it on the part of management/Gardai, and of course the cost.. buses aren't cheap these days!

I lived in Holland for a few years in the 80s and the public transport system there WAS a real alternative.. REAL integrated ticketing (at a time we were - and still are! - fumbling with cash) AND integrated services/modes of transport, buses that ran to the minute with timetables for every individual stop (something we belatedly got around to in the last few years), and co-operation between all the relevant parties to ensure the system worked.

Until DB and the city planners can offer something that the Dutch were doing 30 years ago, you can't really blame people for using the alternatives. Most people can't afford the hours of wasted time sitting or waiting on buses when a car will still - despite the traffic - generally get you there in a fraction of the time.

Scortho

I generally will let buses out in slow moving traffic. If I can overtake it in fast moving traffic I will.
I don't think the biggest problem in Ireland is drivers. I think it's the bus lanes and location of the bus stops.
On the bus lanes, you'd regurly see a bus not driving in the bus lane on the n4. It's driving in what should be the drivers lane. Not only that its driving 20 km/h slower than the cars on the road. So all the cars have to overtake it.
Also the location of bus stops in the city centre.
It doesn't take a genius to realise that if you put a bus stop on a stretch of road where cars can enter, it's going to hold up traffic as well as the bus.
I see this in a number of places every day especially around O Connell bridge. why the hell there's a bus stop here is beyond me as it takes up a lane on one of the busiest bridges in the country.
It'd make much more sense to have it located on dolier st or college st with all the other buses.
Another place is bachelors walk. The 67 stops there every day and pulls in in heavy traffic.
It then has to try and get from the lane closest to o Connell st to the lane furthest away from O Connell st in feck all distance.
If the lights green it holds up traffic at one of the busiest junctions in the country as it tries to get across. And it's not just the 67 there's loads of buses that stop there. Surely having the last stop before o Connell bridge at capel st would be better. At least theres a good long stretch of bus lane left so its not holding up traffic, and gives it a better chance of getting across as its got a longer distance. As a bus user this stop, along with the one where it pulls in at Aran quay adds at least 10 minutes to my journey because some idiot thought they'd be the best place to locate stops.

The best solution j can think of is a bus lane all the way (well in the city centre anyway) like they have in Paris. If a bus is turning left in Paris it stays in the bus lane until it reaches the traffic light. It then rejoins its bus lane at the other side of the lights. There is also a separate light for the bus, where it goes green a couple of seconds before the cars.
In Ireland if a bus want to turn right at I Connell bridge, it has to go into the furthest lane away from the bus lane and then try and rejoin the bus lane when it gets onto the bridge. Surely a wide fluid turn would make sense from one bus lane to the other.

paddyland

Scortho wrote: »

On the bus lanes, you'd regurly see a bus not driving in the bus lane on the n4. It's driving in what should be the drivers lane. Not only that its driving 20 km/h slower than the cars on the road. So all the cars have to overtake it.

The reason the bus is not using the bus lane, is because of drivers like our old buddy here Kaiser2000, who has no intention of letting the bus pull out at the end of the bus lane. Kaiser2000 thinks that buses full of passengers should always stop, every time, and give way to the sole occupant of a private car, regardless of how stupid or energy inefficient that is.

By staying out in the main driving lane, it means the bus driver can keep the bus rolling steadily, instead of being forced to stop at the end of the bus lane, and then haul the ten tonne vehicle into forward motion again through all the gears, and all the resultant waste of time and fuel that involves, accumulated over a full day's driving shift.

Alas, it is because of the bloody mindedness of so many private motorists, that we have to have all the rules and regulations that make every honest road user's life a nightmare, day in, day out.

_Kaiser_

paddyland wrote: »

The reason the bus is not using the bus lane, is because of drivers like our old buddy here Kaiser2000, who has no intention of letting the bus pull out at the end of the bus lane. Kaiser2000 thinks that buses full of passengers should always stop, every time, and give way to the sole occupant of a private car, regardless of how stupid or energy inefficient that is.

Have a read back through some of my posts in this thread - particularly the bits where I talk about letting buses out where the opportunity allows .. both personally and as a general rule.

Then come back to me :rolleyes:

By staying out in the main driving lane, it means the bus driver can keep the bus rolling steadily, instead of being forced to stop at the end of the bus lane, and then haul the ten tonne vehicle into forward motion again through all the gears, and all the resultant waste of time and fuel that involves, accumulated over a full day's driving shift.

So why do we need bus lanes at all then if the buses shouldn't use them? By that logic should I stay in the outside lane of the motorway as I'll eventually have to move into it anyway to overtake someone?

Also you keep going on about ten tonne vehicles and hauling it into motion. You do realise modern buses with auto transmissions, ABS and what not aren't the same as a vehicle from the 60s/70s right? Also, a bus will generally be doing a maximum of 60 km/h in most instances, generally a lot less. It hardly needs a 0-60 time of 6 seconds but nor does it take 60 minutes to get up to speed either!

Alas, it is because of the bloody mindedness of so many private motorists, that we have to have all the rules and regulations that make every honest road user's life a nightmare, day in, day out.

"Honest road user"?? No idea what you're talking about here because I do a lot of driving myself and I find getting around Dublin is one of the easiest places to do so. If you watch what's around you, indicate (and give it a minute for everyone to get used to the idea ), and drive with a bit of cop on (reading the situation ahead of you, anticipating movement of other traffic and buses and adapting accordingly.. which doesn't mean putting the boot down!) then you'll have few issues IMO

Of course you will still get the complete idiot but that's true of public transport drivers as well!

Scortho

paddyland wrote: »

The reason the bus is not using the bus lane, is because of drivers like our old buddy here Kaiser2000, who has no intention of letting the bus pull out at the end of the bus lane. Kaiser2000 thinks that buses full of passengers should always stop, every time, and give way to the sole occupant of a private car, regardless of how stupid or energy inefficient that is.

By staying out in the main driving lane, it means the bus driver can keep the bus rolling steadily, instead of being forced to stop at the end of the bus lane, and then haul the ten tonne vehicle into forward motion again through all the gears, and all the resultant waste of time and fuel that involves, accumulated over a full day's driving shift.

Alas, it is because of the bloody mindedness of so many private motorists, that we have to have all the rules and regulations that make every honest road user's life a nightmare, day in, day out.

Hang on a second. On the chapizod bypass a bus is regularly seen in the drivers lane while there's a perfectly good bus lane.
Your point that he needs to be there to keep the bus moving is wro g as he doesn't need to change lanes until just before the roundabout that isn't a roundabout at kilmainham.
He doesn't need to be in the driving lane on the chapelizod bypass. He's going straight on anyway.

LXFlyer

Scortho wrote: »

Hang on a second. On the chapizod bypass a bus is regularly seen in the drivers lane while there's a perfectly good bus lane.
Your point that he needs to be there to keep the bus moving is wro g as he doesn't need to change lanes until just before the roundabout that isn't a roundabout at kilmainham.
He doesn't need to be in the driving lane on the chapelizod bypass. He's going straight on anyway.

There's no need for the bus to be in the bus lane as all of the traffic is flowing freely and there are no bus stops.

Once the buses hit the traffic they move into the bus lanes.

Scortho

lxflyer wrote: »

There's no need for the bus to be in the bus lane as all of the traffic is flowing freely and there are no bus stops.

Once the buses hit the traffic they move into the bus lanes.

A bus should be in the bus lane. It's there for the bus. Keep out of the driving lane. He's slowing down the traffic of other road users.
At the end of the day I can't drive in the bus lane so why should he be in the driving lane.
In other cities the bus stays in the bus lane, regardless of traffic conditions.
Also if that's the case, since there's little traffic surely the bus lane should be open to cars as well?

beauf

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What causes tailbacks is too much traffic. Public transport doesn't cause congestion, it alleviates it.

Take 100 passengers off a double-decker bus and put them in their own cars and you've instantly created a 500 metre bumper-to-bumper tailback. The bus might be only 10-12 metres in length.....

Only if it works for someones journey. If it doesn't then people will use other transport.

Besides I was talking about the lane design being so poor on the Quays. Nothing about buses.

Spook_ie

Scortho wrote: »

I'm on about the bus lane on the chapelizod bypass. If a bus is going straight and there is a bus lane provided then they should be in the bus lane. End of.
<snipped>.

Just to clarify are you referring to the bit of the by pass where it goes over the R122 Kylmore Road? If not can you clarify which section of the by pass you are referring to

foggy_lad

Scortho wrote: »

Hang on a second. On the chapizod bypass a bus is regularly seen in the drivers lane while there's a perfectly good bus lane.
Your point that he needs to be there to keep the bus moving is wro g as he doesn't need to change lanes until just before the roundabout that isn't a roundabout at kilmainham.
He doesn't need to be in the driving lane on the chapelizod bypass. He's going straight on anyway.

The bus lane on the Chapelizod by-pass is scarcely wide enough for a car never mind a bus. Bus lanes on this road were an afterthought and were placed on what was the hard shoulder.

Scortho

Spook_ie wrote: »

Just to clarify are you referring to the bit of the by pass where it goes over the R122 Kylmore Road? If not can you clarify which section of the by pass you are referring to

In between the turnoff for chapelizod and the traffic lights. So in effect the 80 km/h zone.

Scortho

foggy_lad wrote: »

The bus lane on the Chapelizod by-pass is scarcely wide enough for a car never mind a bus. Bus lanes on this road were an afterthought and were placed on what was the hard shoulder.

Id buy this argument if it wasn't for the fact that I've sat on Dublin buses every weekday for the last 3 years. They've no problem driving in them.
In fact I've seen them overtake cyclists in them as well while traffic is at a standstill which is no easy task.
So they are wide enough.