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Dealing with a rusted shut neutral terminal

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  • 03-08-2013 8:24pm
    #1
    maki
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭


    One of the heaters on my immersion stopped working today and upon investigation I see that the neutral terminal on the heating element is completely rusted and the wire has rusted itself clean off the terminal.

    I've tried oiling up the screw which holds the remains of the tip of the wire in the terminal, but it's not budging. It's rusted solid in there and I don't think it's ever coming out. How do I deal with this?

    I know I could just replace the whole element, but it's in a really confined space and it would involve disconnecting and rotating the whole tank, which is probably going to cost a fortune.

    I've thought of stripping the wire way back and just wrapping it around the terminal and then securing it with electrical tape. Not ideal but since it's neutral it can't cause any havoc if it comes loose right? Or is there a better solution that's less likely to kill me?


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    #2
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    maki wrote: »

    I've thought of stripping the wire way back and just wrapping it around the terminal and then securing it with electrical tape. Not ideal but since it's neutral it can't cause any havoc if it comes loose right? Or is there a better solution that's less likely to kill me?


    Don't do that! The neutral carries exactly the same current as the live and just wrapping it around will not provide a good enough connection. A loose wire causes heat, potentially causing a fire.

    Also what makes you think it's a neutral?

    You really need to replace the element.

    At a minimum you could disconnect the wire at the switch (only if you are competent to do it safely) and only have one element until you can afford to get the element replaced. But I'm not recommending it. Fix it properly.


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    #3
    maki
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭maki


    Well I can see the neutral from the mains come in through the wall into the heater control panel, and go from that through the blue wire into the element.
    The whole element has been disconnected now anyway so it should be safe to use the other one.

    Looks like I'll have to give a plumber a call. Thanks for your advice.


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    #4
    mikerodgers96
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 51 ✭✭mikerodgers96


    you have 2 immersion heaters on the cylinder then

    nightsaver probably


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    #5
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    maki wrote: »
    Well I can see the neutral from the mains come in through the wall into the heater control panel, and go from that through the blue wire into the element.
    The whole element has been disconnected now anyway so it should be safe to use the other one.

    Looks like I'll have to give a plumber a call. Thanks for your advice.


    Electrician is whats needed for the electric end of it.

    Live brown will heat up but as said so will the neutral and can easily cause a fire.


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    #6
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    maki wrote: »
    One of the heaters on my immersion stopped working today and upon investigation I see that the neutral terminal on the heating element is completely rusted and the wire has rusted itself clean off the terminal.

    I've tried oiling up the screw which holds the remains of the tip of the wire in the terminal, but it's not budging. It's rusted solid in there and I don't think it's ever coming out. How do I deal with this?

    I know I could just replace the whole element, but it's in a really confined space and it would involve disconnecting and rotating the whole tank, which is probably going to cost a fortune.

    I've thought of stripping the wire way back and just wrapping it around the terminal and then securing it with electrical tape. Not ideal but since it's neutral it can't cause any havoc if it comes loose right? Or is there a better solution that's less likely to kill me?

    Put up a decent photo of it


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    #7
    maki
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭maki


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Put up a decent photo of it

    Here you go:
    http://i.imgur.com/doTOvI7.jpg


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    #8
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    Thats had it


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    #9
    hufpc8w3adnk65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,158 ✭✭✭✭hufpc8w3adnk65


    New element needed... NO safe way too fix it!!


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    #10
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Looks like you have a leak as well there, I'd attend to that before putting mains voltage back onto it.

    220V coming out of the shower head is not gonna end well. :)


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    #11
    Cerco
    Registered Users Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭Cerco


    It looks to me like it is weeping through the top of the element. If so replacing the element should sort it. I think the plumber will have a tough job removing it.


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    #12
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Steve wrote: »
    Looks like you have a leak as well there, I'd attend to that before putting mains voltage back onto it.

    220V coming out of the shower head is not gonna end well. :)

    Only thing is, that just wouldnt happen.


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    #13
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Only thing is, that just wouldnt happen.

    I could argue that point but that would take this wayyy off topic so not going there. :)


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    #14
    miller50841
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭miller50841


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Only thing is, that just wouldnt happen.

    It would have with the plumber who put in our electric shower no earths and a taped up 40 amp old style screw fuse.

    Scary sh1t when I figured it out after 2 years apprentice sparks.


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    #15
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Steve wrote: »
    I could argue that point but that would take this wayyy off topic so not going there. :)

    Well its a neutral connection for a start. But I would be interested to know how you think 230v will be coming out of the shower head and affecting anyone? I suppose you could say that with the neutral wire removed, the element end is an open neutral. And if the earthing was non existant in the house, anything could happen.

    Best not be walking under any 10kv or 110kv lines the next time its raining though.

    Immersions often used to split inside the cylinder before RCDs were on them, with element conductor now straight into the water. 230v out the shower head? Not realistic. Also, the voltage perceived depends on the resistance/impedance of the item it is across, compared to the resistance of the rest of the circuit in series with it.

    Water, despite what some might believe, is a very poor conductor, varying between 20 ohms and 2000 ohms resistivity for a cubic meter.

    Sea water is 0.2 ohms resistivity for a cubic meter. So even that is 1000 ohms for a 1cm sq, meter long columb of water.

    Now take a cm square section of the fresh water, a meter long, from the 20 ohm (low resistance end of fresh water scale). That will now be 10,000 times the resistance of the cubic meter, or 200k ohms. Now take the distance to the shower head, resistance is far too high to affect anyone.

    Also, if the cylinder is earthed, how will any voltage be perceived beyond the copper enclosed poor conducting water?

    When a person with wet hands touches a live conductor and an earth/neutral, the water on fingers is a large CSA with a microscopic length of only microns(thickness of water film between fingers and contact item), so creates a better contact than dry skin, and also might involve salt from sweat/skin etc.

    But that does not change the fact water is electrically an extremely poor conductor, despite the automatic assumption that its a good conductor.


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    #16
    dougalmaguire
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭dougalmaguire


    Water in its purest form h2o is actually and insulator as far as Im aware...it's just the impurities in everyday water that make in a conductor...anyway that's nothing got to do with the fact that the Chap needs a new element! Just taught I'd throw that out there!!


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    #17
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dougalmaguire wrote: »
    Water in its purest form h2o is actually and insulator as far as Im aware...it's just the impurities in everyday water that make in a conductor...anyway that's nothing got to do with the fact that the Chap needs a new element! Just taught I'd throw that out there!!
    Tap water is an extremely poor conductor though. Its all relative though. But compared to copper etc, it is a high value resistor unless it has a huge surface area and short conductor length.

    Distilled water is like an insulator alright.


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