Excavator hit underground Esb cable

agrostar

We had a contractor in with an excavator levelling topsoil and cleaning up front of our newly built house when he hit underground cable going from pole to our house blowing out the power supply. We had to call Esb to send out a technician to repair the break in the cable which had been all cleaned around and exposed by myself with a shovel. Repair man was here about 1hr repairing the broken cable just had to use joiners no need of any new cabling. Just wondering what this fallout might cost? Got letter in post during the wk from Esb stating we would be getting a bill but no mention of approximate cost. Digger man was just here demanding money but I said it would be best to see how much the repair is costing as he doesn't want to foot the bill for the repair of the cable even though it was obvisiouly his fault as cable was down over 450mm in ducting and covered with tape. Was looking at Esb charges on PDF on Internet and it quotes €1500+vat for hitting of ug cabling is this correct?

Tia.......

michael999999

agrostar wrote: »

We had a contractor in with an excavator levelling topsoil and cleaning up front of our newly built house when he hit underground cable going from pole to our house blowing out the power supply. We had to call Esb to send out a technician to repair the break in the cable which had been all cleaned around and exposed by myself with a shovel. Repair man was here about 1hr repairing the broken cable just had to use joiners no need of any new cabling. Just wondering what this fallout might cost? Got letter in post during the wk from Esb stating we would be getting a bill but no mention of approximate cost. Digger man was just here demanding money but I said it would be best to see how much the repair is costing as he doesn't want to foot the bill for the repair of the cable even though it was obvisiouly his fault as cable was down over 450mm in ducting and covered with tape. Was looking at Esb charges on PDF on Internet and it quotes €1500+vat for hitting of ug cabling is this correct?

Tia.......

Digger driver is totally responsible for that ESB bill Op!

admcfad

Second that, the contractor is totally responsible, don't let them persuade you otherwise.

This happened to friends of mine last month, and the contractor tried to pull a fast one, firstly by saying that my friends had to foot the bill, then when they stood their ground he tried to split the bill, eventually he paid the bill when my friends would not be persuaded otherwise.

Xantia

Dial before you dig

You could have been seriously injured going at that with a shovel....

agrostar

Thanks for replies digger driver still not claiming any responsibility for hitting cable saying as it was a new house the building contractor didn't bury the cabling deep enough eventhough it was buried over 450mm covered wit tape so it should be his problem. I have a bad feeling he is trying to wash his hands of all responsibility and we will have to foot the bill.
Will the Esb send the bill to him? Or to us?:(
The Esb repair man took his name on the day and he is named on the letter from Esb saying we will be receiving a bill....
Anyone got any ballpark figure for approx cost??

the_syco

agrostar wrote: »

digger driver still not claiming any responsibility for hitting cable

You could always ask why he didn't ring the ESB before he started digging.

agrostar wrote: »

Will the Esb send the bill to him?

Unless the ESB has his address, probably to you.

=-=

This will probably get ugly, so best seek legal advice.

BryanF

agrostar wrote: »

Thanks for replies digger driver still not claiming any responsibility for hitting cable saying as it was a new house the building contractor didn't bury the cabling deep enough eventhough it was buried over 450mm covered wit tape so it should be his problem. I have a bad feeling he is trying to wash his hands of all responsibility and we will have to foot the bill.
Will the Esb send the bill to him? Or to us?:(
The Esb repair man took his name on the day and he is named on the letter from Esb saying we will be receiving a bill....
Anyone got any ballpark figure for approx cost??

admcfad wrote: »

Second that, the contractor is totally responsible, don't let them persuade you otherwise.

This happened to friends of mine last month, and the contractor tried to pull a fast one, firstly by saying that my friends had to foot the bill, then when they stood their ground he tried to split the bill, eventually he paid the bill when my friends would not be persuaded otherwise.

agrostar
im confused here? who employed the digger driver? did you employ him directly or is he a sub-contractor of the main contractor?

agrostar

BryanF wrote: »

agrostar
im confused here? who employed the digger driver? did you employ him directly or is he a sub-contractor of the main contractor?

We employed him directly ourselves unfortunately, building contractor was only contracted to get house to builders finish. The building contractor only levelled the topsoil, with no landscaping we were just trying to finish outside the property during the fine weather as they were ideal conditions

wirehairmax

I've a couple of questions about this.

1. What was the actual depth of the duct below ground level? Note min 600mm as per ESB specification for private dwellings.
2. If the machine driver was employed to spread topsoil and do some landscaping why was he digging at a depth of 450mm? If he was employed to spread topsoil I dont think he should be coming into contact with ESB ducting. A digger bucket would slice through loose soil in a fraction of a second so a depth of 450mm is inadequate for ESB ducting, hence the minimum requirement of 600mm. This would allow the driver the chance to see the warning tape with the first sweep of the bucket.
3. Was there warning tape at 300mm below ground level as per ESB guidelines? And was the tape ESB approved?
4. Was there sand bed and cover surround?
5. Was the machine operator informed of the fact that there was buried live services in the area?

As you were the client/employer/contractor you have a duty of care to employees/subcontractors. If you failed to inform the driver and there was no marker posts/indicators along the route of the service, I would form the opinion that you may be liable for costs and not the plant hire company as they were employed by you to carry out works and you failed to inform them of hazards and devise a safe system of work. If this is the case you should count yourself lucky that you werent dealing with a fatality or a more serious incident. I think you should pay the costs and hope that is the end of the matter. I would definitely apportion a greater percentage of the blame to the OP.

Todd Toddington III

wirehairmax wrote: »

I've couple of questions about this.

1. What was the actual depth of the duct below ground level? Note min 600mm as per ESB specification for private dwellings.
2. If the machine drir was employed to spread topsoil and do some landscaping why was he digging at a depth of 450mm? If he was employed to spread topsoil I dont think he should be coming into contact with ESB ducting. A digger bucket would slice through loose soil in a fraction of a second so a depth of 450mm is inadequate for ESB ducting, hence the minimum requirement of 600mm. This would allow the driver the chance to see the warning tape with the first sweep of the bucket.
3. Was there warning tape at 300mm below ground level as per ESB guidelines? And was the tape ESB approved?
4. Was there sand bed and cover surround?
5. Was the machine operator informed of the fact that there was buried live services in the area?

As you were the client/employer/contractor you have a duty of care to employees/subcontractors. If you failed to inform the driver and there was no marker posts/indicators along the route of the service, I would form the opinion that you may be liable for costs and not the plant hire company as they were employed by you to carry out works and you failed to inform them of hazards and devise a safe system of work. If this is the case you should count yourself lucky that you werent dealing with a fatality or a more serious incident. I think you should pay the costs and hope that is the end of the matter. I would definitely apportion a greater percentage of the blame to the OP.

Would have to agree with this post unless you can provide more details absolving you of liability. As you did the hiring you would be classed as the employer/main contractor and are liable. Failure to inform the driver the cable was there is serious. Next time dig a trial hole to locate said cable to determine it's depth, people need to be more aware of the dangers of cable strikes. Ignorance of your role as the employer does not equal absolution of responsibility

JimsAlterEgo

your builder may be the one at fault thru not burying it deep enough, in that case you will prob have to pay up and get it back from builder later.

Cienciano

The guy digging shouldn't have touched his digger till he saw a map of the area with esb services in the location. Did he have one? If not, why did he start digging?

kkelliher

digger driver completely liable in this instance. If he has public liability insurance it will be covered under that policy.

wirehairmax

Cienciano wrote: »

The guy digging shouldn't have touched his digger till he saw a map of the area with esb services in the location. Did he have one? If not, why did he start digging?

What map? It was on a recently built private one off dwelling. The ESB don't take responsibility to produce maps for this. It is up to the owner to know the location of these services. All the OP had to do was tell the driver that there was a buried service and the location of it. If the OP didn't know the exact location how was a digger driver who was only hired by the hour to spread topsoil going to know? I've located services on a good few occasions using an underground scanner for clients who are drilling wells, extending, doing drainage etc. if you're not sure there are people trained to do this and it doesn't take long to locate and accurately map buried services.
Thankfully the new construction health and safety regs will place a greater responsibility on the main contractor/developer/owner to keep proper records and produce proper as-built drawings. Incidents like this shouldn't occur with proper precaution. A simple warning to an innocent driver would have prevented this.
Be grateful the drivers family are not burying their husband/father/brother/son today. You could also be facing a civil action by the drivers family against you for your failure to warn him of a hidden danger and in doing so caused a fatality.
What self-builders should realise is that construction is not a game or a hobby. Your actions or negligence could affect someone else's life. I see it all over the country on self-builds, little or no scaffolding, 220v power, no edge protection, overloaded timber floors, unguarded opes, dangerous occurrences involving machinery etc. all down to negligence, ignorance, penny-pinching. Remember in court that ignorance is not a defense.
With power comes responsibility.

sydthebeat

This is an interesting discussion


what duty of care does the 'client' have to his employee?
Although a PSDP or PSCP isnt required (currently) for this kind of engagement,

In accordance with Section 15 of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005, it is the duty of each person
(or company) who has control to any extent of any place of work, or any part of a place of work, to take such
measures as are reasonable for them to take to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the place of work
is safe and without risk to health. In certain cases, this provision may be applicable to clients who commission
projects that will involve carrying out excavation work near underground services.

'may be applicable' is obviously a grey area.

what duty of care does the contractor have?

Contractors must carry out a site-specific risk assessment. They should also ensure that their employees have
adequate training and that any plant or machinery is, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and does not pose
a risk to health. Contractors should also put in place measures to ensure that the health and safety of personnel
employed by them will not be adversely affected by the work being carried out.
Sections 6 to 13 of this COP set out practical measures for protecting the safety, health and welfare of employees
and non-employees while excavation work is being carried out in the vicinity of underground services.

so the question is, is the digger driver a "contractor" or not?

edit: definition of 'contactor' in HSA legislation.

“ contractor ” means -
(a) a contractor or an employer whose employees undertake, carry out or
manage construction work, or
(b) a person who -
(i) carries out or manages construction work for a fixed or other
sum, and
(ii) supplies materials , labour or both , whether the contractor’s own
labour or that of another, to carry out the work;

all from here, Code of Practice on Avoiding Dangers from Underground Services.


to my reading, BOTH the client and the contractor have fallen down in their legal responsibilities.

the difference of opinion and grey area in the legislation is slightly worrying though.

kkelliher

Does paying a machine drive to level a garden result in the client operating a subcontractor or acting as an employer? I cant see how this would be the case.

sydthebeat

kkelliher wrote: »

Does paying a machine drive to level a garden result in the client operating a subcontractor or acting as an employer? I cant see how this would be the case.

on further reading....
'homeowners' are not included as "clients" according to the regs, so i suppose that in itself absolves the OP in this case??

i dont know though.

BryanF

op would you mind taking a stab at the below questions, it might help clarify if you or the contractor or both are liable for this cost

wirehairmax wrote: »

I've a couple of questions about this.

1. What was the actual depth of the duct below ground level? Note min 600mm as per ESB specification for private dwellings.
2. If the machine driver was employed to spread topsoil and do some landscaping why was he digging at a depth of 450mm? If he was employed to spread topsoil I dont think he should be coming into contact with ESB ducting. A digger bucket would slice through loose soil in a fraction of a second so a depth of 450mm is inadequate for ESB ducting, hence the minimum requirement of 600mm. This would allow the driver the chance to see the warning tape with the first sweep of the bucket.
3. Was there warning tape at 300mm below ground level as per ESB guidelines? And was the tape ESB approved?
4. Was there sand bed and cover surround?
5. Was the machine operator informed of the fact that there was buried live services in the area?

........

6. If you failed to inform the driver and there was no marker posts/indicators along the route of the service?

kkelliher wrote: »

7. If he has public liability insurance it will be covered under that policy.

thanks

agrostar

wirehairmax wrote: »

I've a couple of questions about this.

1. What was the actual depth of the duct below ground level? Note min 600mm as per ESB specification for private dwellings.
2. If the machine driver was employed to spread topsoil and do some landscaping why was he digging at a depth of 450mm? If he was employed to spread topsoil I dont think he should be coming into contact with ESB ducting. A digger bucket would slice through loose soil in a fraction of a second so a depth of 450mm is inadequate for ESB ducting, hence the minimum requirement of 600mm. This would allow the driver the chance to see the warning tape with the first sweep of the bucket.
3. Was there warning tape at 300mm below ground level as per ESB guidelines? And was the tape ESB approved?
4. Was there sand bed and cover surround?
5. Was the machine operator informed of the fact that there was buried live services in the area?

As you were the client/employer/contractor you have a duty of care to employees/subcontractors. If you failed to inform the driver and there was no marker posts/indicators along the route of the service, I would form the opinion that you may be liable for costs and not the plant hire company as they were employed by you to carry out works and you failed to inform them of hazards and devise a safe system of work. If this is the case you should count yourself lucky that you werent dealing with a fatality or a more serious incident. I think you should pay the costs and hope that is the end of the matter. I would definitely apportion a greater percentage of the blame to the OP.

Sorry about slow replies just we are away on holiday at the moment and can't get away to get on Internet the easiest:)
Depth of ducting was tbh probably between 400mm-500mm depth
I don't no what depth warning tape was at, it was definitely present he dug down through both in one move with digger bucket and struck ducting.
Machine driver was informed of underground ducting running from Esb pole to house when he came to look at job afew days previously so yes would be the answer here we clearly specified there was power crossing under garden to the house.

I would definitely not think that we apportion the greater percentage of blame here there were short comings on both parties. We informed the digger operator that there was underground Esb services running under garden from Esb pole clearly identifiable to the house and he identified hazard himself. When he hit the ducting he dug down a good 500mm in one movement from fresh ground hitting cabling below unless he forgot about ducting which would be his fault.
Where we might proportion some blame would be we didn't ensure building contractor buried ducting to correct depth 600mm when putting Esb into house.

Sorry but does anyone have any idea of approximate cost of repair by Esb, digger operator said the last time it happened to him it cost approx €400. But when I went looking on Internet about possible costs I found a PDF from Esb Netorks quoting €1500+vat:eek: in standard charges

agrostar

Sorry meant to say we originally said we might pay €200 (50%) towards Esb repair on digger drivers original quotation of approx repair cost of€400 but there is no way we can afford to pay €1500 r even €750 he says he has public liability insurance but seems unwilling to use it:(

muffler

Its a bit of a mess as you will have seen from the previous offerings. I can see why no one would want to have their insurance pay out on what would effectively be a small claim.

If you can get a figure for the repair and get the original contractor and digger man together then you might be able to thrash something out.

agrostar

muffler wrote: »

Its a bit of a mess as you will have seen from the previous offerings. I can see why no one would want to have their insurance pay out on what would effectively be a small claim.

If you can get a figure for the repair and get the original contractor and digger man together then you might be able to thrash something out.

But that's what people have insurance isn't it really?
Sorry I don't mean to be sarcastic,
I don't really want to see digger operator out of pocket but I really don't want to be footing the bill for other people's mistakes either if the bill was €400 as the digger driver had quoted I would have no problem paying half as it was a genuine mistake but as of yet we still have not received any bill from Esb and digger driver called to house looking for payment before we left on holiday and got very abusive when told he would be paid only when we knew what Esb was costing. Might see what it wud cost to ring Esb from here just to be done of it I suppose

michael999999

agrostar wrote: »

Sorry about slow replies just we are away on holiday at the moment and can't get away to get on Internet the easiest:)
Depth of ducting was tbh probably between 400mm-500mm depth
I don't no what depth warning tape was at, it was definitely present he dug down through both in one move with digger bucket and struck ducting.
Machine driver was informed of underground ducting running from Esb pole to house when he came to look at job afew days previously so yes would be the answer here we clearly specified there was power crossing under garden to the house.

I would definitely not think that we apportion the greater percentage of blame here there were short comings on both parties. We informed the digger operator that there was underground Esb services running under garden from Esb pole clearly identifiable to the house and he identified hazard himself. When he hit the ducting he dug down a good 500mm in one movement from fresh ground hitting cabling below unless he forgot about ducting which would be his fault.
Where we might proportion some blame would be we didn't ensure building contractor buried ducting to correct depth 600mm when putting Esb into house.

Sorry but does anyone have any idea of approximate cost of repair by Esb, digger operator said the last time it happened to him it cost approx €400. But when I went looking on Internet about possible costs I found a PDF from Esb Netorks quoting €1500+vat:eek: in standard charges

So the digger driver has hit cabling before!

Todd Toddington III

Pay him what he.s owed minus the 1500 you reckon it will cost to pay the esb. Don't leave the man out of pocket anyway. The fact you told him about the services absolves you of a lot in my view. I fail to see wtf he was doing digging down 500mm to spread topsoil though. Your previous contractor is also culpable for not following specs. I hope you took photos as evidence

Big Davey

Digger driver should have insurance or was it a "cash in hand" job ? If it was a " cash in hand" job I recon you will have to foot the bill in my opinion.

kkelliher

Big Davey wrote: »

Digger driver should have insurance or was it a "cash in hand" job ? If it was a " cash in hand" job I recon you will have to foot the bill in my opinion.

Either way his insurance should cover the liability.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'd suggest ringing the ESB.

BryanF

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Pay him what he.s owed minus the 1500 you reckon it will cost to pay the esb. Don't leave the man out of pocket anyway.

this makes no sense btw how mush do think digger drivers get paid after fuel, maintance, insurance etc

Todd Toddington III

BryanF wrote: »

this makes no sense btw how mush do think digger drivers get paid after fuel, maintance, insurance etc

Seeing as you have no idea how big the job site was, how long it took to do, what size machine he used etc what's your point? X cash over and above the 1500 will cover the cost of something. It might not cover wages but it will pay for something. And seeing as something is better than sfa I'm sure he'll reluctantly take it until liability and final bill can be determined

tipptom

Geez,a machine driver spreading topsoil takes out a lec cable down a foot and a half in one foul swoop after being told there is a cable going from a pole in the general direction of the house,that is disgraceful driving.

Also if main contractor was contracted to lay the cable at min 600mm,he should technically have something to answer for but it all goes back to the driver,even if he did need to dig down at that level he should have stuck on the grading bucket and pull it in layers down to warning tape and sand,them cables take a fair bit of pulling and ignorance in my opinion before you break them specifically if you have been warned about them.

BryanF

agrostar
how much was the digger guy to have been paid, before this unfortunate esb incident?