Collins Christie Memorial

FrankGrimes

Seems an age since I've last been in the country and able to race so looking forward to this weekend. From the Cycling Ireland calendar, there's the Beechmount Cup on Saturday 10th and Collins Christie memorial on Sunday 11th.

Both are listed on Navan Road Club's (who seem to organise a lot of events, fair play) page here but there's not much details (I'll contact the club separately if needed but reckon there's probably folks from there who post here and no harm to publicise details here anyway).

Searching for last year's threads it seems the Beechmount is a Handicap single race but there are separate category races for the Collins Christie on the Sunday. Does anyone have a link to a route map and know the distance for the A4 race? Thanks.

Beasty

Last year's thread

Course used for both events in 2012

wav1

Saturdays Beechmount Cup is a handicap event for all cats.Only about 42 k in total.Category prizes for all.Start time is 7pm

Sundays Collins Christle Memorial is as follows
A1/A2/A3/Jun handicap race 84k 2pm
A4 race 56k 2.03pm
Womans race 56k 2.05pm.

Sign on for both days is at Maguires pub in the village
Circuit distance is approx 14k
Also on Sunday at 12 noon.Leinster Youth R/R Champs at the same venue.

FrankGrimes

Thanks for the details wav1, exactly what I was looking for. Seems the route Beasty posted is the same one that'll be used for this year so that's grand too (looks like it might have a bit of drag for the finish rather than being flat which is good).

dooverylittle

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Thanks for the details wav1, exactly what I was looking for. Seems the route Beasty posted is the same one that'll be used for this year so that's grand too (looks like it might have a bit of drag for the finish rather than being flat which is good).

Max gradient I can see is 1%, are you joking?

couerdelion

Does the race start at 2pm on Sunday or is sign on starting at 2pm and the race later?

wav1

couerdelion wrote: »

Does the race start at 2pm on Sunday or is sign on starting at 2pm and the race later?

Starts at 2pm.Sign on will open for the youths at 11am and their race starts at 12.Sign on will remain open straight through to 1.45pm.

couerdelion

Thanks Wav.

Inquitus

Just back from this. This was the most dangerous race of my short career. A big A4 field, probably too big for the circuit, too many riders wanting to take big risks moving up the outside on blind bends, and alot of cars meant it was an accident waiting to happen, in my opinion, and that of some of the fellas I was chatting to in the race. And in the end the accident did happen with the peleton spread across the road coming into the last km or so, a car comes the other way and a I believe a chap hit it, I was on the front so I didn't see it, but by all accounts it was quite bad, the resulting crash took out a good chunk of the field. Hope no one is badly hurt.

luapenak

What was the story with the womens race? Why did they not contest the sprint?

colm_gti

Pulled out of the A1/2/3 race after we were stopped for 10 minutes before the start of the last lap, pulling out early isn't always the most fun option but it sure is the least hassle!

Hope nobody was hurt too badly in the A4 race!

Beasty

Sat at the back of the A4 for virtually the whole race - too many riders taking too many risks - all over the road, oblivious to the continuous white lines and slamming on their brakes whenever a car came in the other direction - there were far too many in both races for that circuit

Being at the back probably makes it harder work as you're continually trying to close down gaps that arise particularly coming out of corners, but at least I could see what was going on and keep relatively safe

About a km or so from the end a gap opened up ahead of me and I simply thought sod it - I didn't want to get involved in the finish and let it open up. pprenderville had dropped out of the main race with a puncture and encouraged me to get back on but I really didn't have the appetite - around the next corner we came across the carnage of the crash - people were already in attendance and I rolled onto the finish

The ladies race was held up by the crash and they initially decided to neutralise it, awarding the first 2 places to riders who had broken away. However most of them, having rolled over the line, then went back to complete the "race".

The main race was also held up for some time and were then let go for their final lap - I understand there were then a number of crashes with a few riders suggesting it should not have been restarted after such a long delay

Unfortunately incidents like those witnessed today give ammunition to those looking to restrict road racing in Ireland. tbh if racers continue to behave in such a fashion they will only have themselves to blame when the inevitable further restrictions are introduced

colm_gti

Beasty wrote: »

...a few riders suggesting it should not have been restarted after such a long delay...

They're big enough to decide to drop out if they felt that way!

dermabrasion

Second week in row A4 smash in the gallup to the finish. I think Inquitus is correct. You had to take risks to get up to the front: either go on the right hand side of the road, or up the gutter/ditch. Usual A4 sitting on and coasting means that it was impossible (difficult) to move up the center. If someone does take a stab off the front, it is impossible to get to them and jump on. So, everyone arrives in the last K in fairly good shape and then the fun starts.
I have been thinking on the way home how to avoid this. Perhaps we should extend the race length to A2/3 distance, and we might burn off a few.
The guy that was taken off by Ambulance was a junior from Dunboyne. He looks to have a busted left knee and tenderness in the lumber spine. Hopefully, nothing serious.
But as Inquitus says, that crash was inevitable.

Cond0r

I did the a1/2/3 race today, and the peloton was spread across the road at every stage except when there was a car coming, this isn't a trend reserved for A4 and I do also think it's extremely dangerous.

Also second that today's race was far too big a field for such a tight circuit, and is evidenced by the amount of crashes all round.

morana

That circuit would be grand if it was one way for traffic. no oncoming cars.

Cond0r

morana wrote: »

That circuit would be grand if it was one way for traffic. no oncoming cars.

Or the roads were closed. But neither of these things are going to happen realistically?

Beasty

Cond0r wrote: »

Or the roads were closed. But neither of these things are going to happen realistically?

If we are not careful closed roads will become a requirement - that's essentially the position currently being taken by at least one local authority

PeadarCo

Cond0r wrote: »

Or the roads were closed. But neither of these things are going to happen realistically?

Realisticly probably the only reasonable option is to limit field sizes. In an ideal world the course would determine this. In practice there'll probably be some general limit combined with preregistration.

Did the A4 race today. Ended up dropping out as sat at the back to avoid the messing that went on. As Beasty noted this makes life far harder on the corners etc but wasn't strong enough to be at the front so I took the safest option. Didn't see the crash.

To be fair to the organisers the A4 only race was introduced last year at least in part to the issues faced with combined handicap A1-A4 field size which were on a similar line to what happened today without the serious crash.

Also best wishes to anybody hurt in the accidents hope they're back on their bikes soon.

ROK ON

Beasty wrote: »

If we are not careful closed roads will become a requirement - that's essentially the position currently being taken by at least one local authority

Maybe thats down to the club and officials in that area.

There are races and club leagues in all parts of this country that do not seem toattract similar opposition and nimbyism.

Albag22

Whatever about closed roads, that car shouldn't have been allowed at that point to come over the bridge. It obviously came up through the village, while people knew the group would have been flying towards the village..
I was unfortunately the guy who came down as the BIG shout of car made everyone move sharply from right to left.. My front wheel taken out!!
The driver got out and said he had no idea there was a race on as nobody said anything and he didn't see marshals..
Young guy is fine, it was just precautionary.

Beasty

Albag22 wrote: »

Whatever about closed roads, that car shouldn't have been allowed at that point to come over the bridge. It obviously came up through the village, while people knew the group would have been flying towards the village..
I was unfortunately the guy who came down as the BIG shout of car made everyone move sharply from right to left.. My front wheel taken out!!
The driver got out and said he had no idea there was a race on as nobody said anything and he didn't see marshals..
Young guy is fine, it was just precautionary.

How do you propose stopping a car proceeding on the public highway?

Even if marshals could stop traffic (and to be clear they have absolutely no power to), you would need to have them placed at numerous additional locations around the course to keep the road clear

The cyclists should not be riding on the wrong side of the road (there was one example of a cyclist riding the other side of a stopped car in the oncoming lane today)

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

Maybe thats down to the club and officials in that area.

It's down to the local authority who have in effect banned road racing unless on closed roads or with rolling closures under direction of the Guards. This has affected both cycling and triathlon events, with one recent cycling leg of a triathlon being considered a "leisure" event observing all road traffic laws (white lines, 2 abreast, stop and yield signs etc being fully observed)

I am aware of more than one area where races have been cancelled as a result of intervention of local authorities and/or the Guards.

531

Beasty wrote: »

The cyclists should not be riding on the wrong side of the road

The races are held on open, public roads so the rules of the roads must be obeyed. I understood that, earlier in the year, Commissaires were starting to exclude riders who crossed white lines, is this not happening now?

I hope any injured today are ok.

I fear something could happen that could lead to no racing taking place on public roads.

luapenak

Beasty wrote: »

How do you propose stopping a car proceeding on the public highway?

The bridge was clearly a particularly dangerous point, given the proximity to the finish. A marshall there would not have been a bad idea.

luapenak

531 wrote: »

The races are held on open, public roads so the rules of the roads must be obeyed. I understood that, earlier in the year, Commissaires were starting to exclude riders who crossed white lines, is this not happening now?

Been to 6 or 7 races this year and have never seen Commissaires pull anyone up for crossing the lines.

Albag22

Beasty wrote: »

How do you propose stopping a car proceeding on the public highway?

Even if marshals could stop traffic (and to be clear they have absolutely no power to), you would need to have them placed at numerous additional locations around the course to keep the road clear

The cyclists should not be riding on the wrong side of the road

Agreed that we should be on the right side of the road, but at that point, inside the last K with testosterone flying, I personally believe they should try and inform at least cars approaching.. I'm not saying close the roads or have marshals on every corner but for such a short distance and on that stretch of road they could have at least given him a heads up!!

Albag22

Beasty wrote: »

How do you propose stopping a car proceeding on the public highway?

Even if marshals could stop traffic (and to be clear they have absolutely no power to), you would need to have them placed at numerous additional locations around the course to keep the road clear

The cyclists should not be riding on the wrong side of the road (there was one example of a cyclist riding the other side of a stopped car in the oncoming lane today)

Beasty wrote: »

How do you propose stopping a car proceeding on the public highway?

Even if marshals could stop traffic (and to be clear they have absolutely no power to), you would need to have them placed at numerous additional locations around the course to keep the road clear

The cyclists should not be riding on the wrong side of the road

Agreed that we should be on the right side of the road, but at that point, inside the last K with testosterone flying, I personally believe they should try and inform at least cars approaching.. I'm not saying close the roads or have marshals on every corner but for such a short distance and on that stretch of road they could have at least given him a heads up!!

bren_mc

Glad to hear nobody got too badly injured. I was right behind the riders that came down and it looked like absolute carnage. I just about managed to weave through it.
I think that, given the profile of the course, an incident like this was always a strong possibility. I rode the first three laps near the front and it felt safe enough all the way round. Then tried a bit of a daft attack, blew up and ended up back in the middle of the bunch. From that point on, it was all very nervy. I got my second wind but couldn't get back near the front as I hadn't the bottle to move up on the right hand side which was about the only option.
I think even a small drag somewhere along the way might have stretched the thing out a bit and lessened the chances of a crash.

pmurp141

was in the A4 today, spent most of the race in the last third as it was impossible to move up without taking crazy risks, "531", course was on small roads with no center markings, peleton was spread accross the entire road, commissaire wouldn't be able to reprimand even if he wanted to.

sat in behind that Dunboyne junior for maybe 2 laps as he was particularly smooth rider with no braking or crazy moves, can assure you what ever caused the crash it wasn't him, speedy recovery!

pmurp141

ps any results yet? wondering if that longford leadout train work?

dave_o_brien

A4 race was ridiculous. It seemed from my position to be poorly marshalled: sharp turn with a huge amount of gravel not marshalled, blind bridges not marshalled, etc. Behaviour within the group was atrocious, and the field was too big, it seemed to me. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I reckon that with the end of the season within sight, a lot of people thought "f*ck it, one last roll of the dice". Not worth it. I wish the comissaires would take a firm view of one-side-of-the-public-road-only rule.

I was right behind the crash, and witnessed the inexcusable behaviour of one rider trying to hurdle the crash with his bike shouldered to get through so he could take a solo 25th place. Idiot got his wheel caught in my bars and nearly landed on the junior who went down. Being competitive is useful only until a point. That was a fair bit beyond that point.

Diarmuid

Beasty wrote: »

If we are not careful closed roads will become a requirement - that's essentially the position currently being taken by at least one local authority

Care to elaborate on that? From what I've heard the "Swords approach" has backfired on that club league but it's not clear to me how that legitimises the opposition to road racing in Ireland.

scoopers

Hi all, I was one of the people caught up in the crash today. The entire race was an absolute discrace and an acident waiting to happen, way to big a field, not enough marshalls, and lunatics taking crazy risks. At one point early on I thought about pulling out as it was so dangerous, but went to the front and tried to break away instead unsuccesfully dropped back to recover and stayed close to the left as this seemed the most stable place in the bunch, until some idiots decide not to get out of the way of a car when its called until the last second and just ram into everyone to there left who had the sense to try and stay safe away from the wrong! side of the road. Week old wheels damaged some bad cuts and bruises and a waste of a day thanks to dangerous riders who probably shouldn't be allowed to race.

scoopers

Sorry rant nearly over. Also would just like to say that in a lot of A4 races I've been in there seems to be a kind of lock/block out at the front near the end of races. Let me explain, lads go up the front and don't push, and this compresses the bunch, then other lads go up the right hand side but don't want to work so just block the road and stay out on the wrong side of the road not pushing so this compresses the bunch even more and then something goes wrong and theres no where left to move and an accident happens. This isn't racing!

Beasty

scoopers wrote: »

Sorry rant nearly over. Also would just like to say that in a lot of A4 races I've been in there seems to be a kind of lock/block out at the front near the end of races. Let me explain, lads go up the front and don't push, and this compresses the bunch, then other lads go up the right hand side but don't want to work so just block the road and stay out on the wrong side of the road not pushing so this compresses the bunch even more and then something goes wrong and theres no where left to move and an accident happens. This isn't racing!

That was happening throughout the race - it was strung out a bit on occasions but would concertina when approaching a corner of heading up a drag - that would be a signal for some to try and gain 20 places to get nearer the front, and then the group would be spread all over the road

Most of the time there were no more than a handful of riders behind me and often only 2 or 3 (or none!), but it felt comfortable knowing you had some room and a bit of time to brake whenever we came across a car and the whole group squeezed over and then strung out again having got past it

There were a few of us who adopted a similar approach then we would get someone who had dropped back a little realising they were at the back so would move over into the oncoming lane to try and get some places back.

dedocdude

I've bleated on about this subject on here earlier in the season, with little support - I figured it would die down when the early season passes come the summer, but seems by this event, sadly not.

Can't comment on this event as i was not there - but as someone involved and active in open road racing for nearly 25 years in Ireland, I think there are a few forces at work here today -

1. Roads are busier with traffic
2. Races have larger fields
3. These larger fields are generally very inexperienced

I don't think i need to rant on about it but stick these three things together and you have a problem

pm78

Also dont want to comment on collins christie race but more generally have done several a4 races this year. Some were obviously more dangerous than others. The safest I felt in any was in north. This particular race had online entry and limited field to 50 rather than the normal 80, finished on a long drag, motorbike marshalls were active, and commissaire removed a rider for apparently dangerously crossing white line. This simple formula made for a really safe race on what was arguably one of the worst days of the year weatherwise. I realise there a downside to limiting field size and disqualifying riders but it a price worth paying.

dermabrasion

1. Roads are busier with traffic
2. Races have larger fields
3. These larger fields are generally very inexperienced (QUOTE/]

yes you are correct, but all of these were / are predictable and foreseeable.
What was also foreseeable was:
1. Flat track over a short distance = bunch (sprint) finish
2. Small roads, big field = riders on the right hand side of road
3. Positioning on last kilometer coming over humpback bridge key to sprint position.
I took the ditch side of the road, on the basis that in a crash, I'd fall soft(er). I fell into the ditch. When we were coming up to the last k, riders filled the road. Lots of guys in the hunt. I was thinking that they must of closed the road. Then the shout of 'car right' happened, and the crash.
I don't think you can blame the riders for trying to get into position. Thats what they came to do: compete. This road was not suitable for this type of finish.

Beasty

dermabrasion wrote: »

This road was not suitable for this type of finish.

It wasn't just the finish - there were any number of places and occasions (of oncoming cars) where something similar could have happened today. As I've already mentioned there was an incident a few minutes before the crash where a car pulled up and at least one rider ended going to the right of that vehicle to get past

I gave out to those who continued to race on the wrong side of the road after that incident and they just continued on their merry way.

FrankGrimes

Just want to add another voice to the feedback - today was a mental race, my spidey sense told me that there'd defo be crashes so I resolved to stay out of trouble and make a kamikaze attack near the end and then sit up if it didn't work. Attacked at 4km to go and was gobbled up about 2km to go so I sat up and sat 10metres off the group. 30 seconds later the pile-up happened.

It's not constructive to say people should not go onto the wrong side of the road, that seems a little like sticking the head in the sand as the evidence in most races clearly indicates that a lot of people do ride on the wrong side of the road , so it would seem foolhardy to ignore that is the reality, so that reality needs to be dealt with. Having a marshall on that bridge would have been helpful, we all knew from the previous laps that there'd be a lot of riders on the wrong side at that point. I agree the field seemed too large for that course.

So, anyone saying riders should not be on the wrong side is technically correct but that's not really constructive. Something needs to change as that was beyond a reasonable level of risk today.

Glad to hear there are no very serious injuries.

Beasty

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So, anyone saying riders should not be on the wrong side is technically correct but that's not really constructive. Something needs to change as that was beyond a reasonable level of risk today.

So what's your suggestion?

Riders did it despite the dangers - if they did it in the vets league their number would be noted (by committee members in the race) and they would get suspended for the rest of the season

The other obvious option on that circuit would be to restrict numbers, although 50 may well have been too many today

dave_o_brien

FrankGrimes wrote: »

It's not constructive to say people should not go onto the wrong side of the road, that seems a little like sticking the head in the sand as the evidence in most races clearly indicates that a lot of people do ride on the wrong side of the road , so it would seem foolhardy to ignore that is the reality, so that reality needs to be dealt with. Having a marshall on that bridge would have been helpful, we all knew from the previous laps that there'd be a lot of riders on the wrong side at that point. I agree the field seemed too large for that course.

So, anyone saying riders should not be on the wrong side is technically correct but that's not really constructive. Something needs to change as that was beyond a reasonable level of risk today.

Is this not a bit like saying "people should leave the car after drinking, but they do anyway", before a proper clamp down on drink-driving came into place?

It should be fairly simple: an appropriate and pre-agreed suspension of any rider observed to cycle on the wrong side. Removal of licence for the season on second incident for any rider.

Inquitus

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Is this not a bit like saying "people should leave the car after drinking, but they do anyway", before a proper clamp down on drink-driving came into place?

It should be fairly simple: an appropriate and pre-agreed suspension of any rider observed to cycle on the wrong side. Removal of licence for the season on second incident for any rider.

We also shouldn't be racing with a field that size on roads where 2 cars could not even pass.

scoopers

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Just want to add another voice to the feedback - today was a mental race, my spidey sense told me that there'd defo be crashes so I resolved to stay out of trouble and make a kamikaze attack near the end and then sit up if it didn't work. Attacked at 4km to go and was gobbled up about 2km to go so I sat up and sat 10metres off the group. 30 seconds later the pile-up happened.

It's not constructive to say people should not go onto the wrong side of the road, that seems a little like sticking the head in the sand as the evidence in most races clearly indicates that a lot of people do ride on the wrong side of the road , so it would seem foolhardy to ignore that is the reality, so that reality needs to be dealt with. Having a marshall on that bridge would have been helpful, we all knew from the previous laps that there'd be a lot of riders on the wrong side at that point. I agree the field seemed too large for that course.

So, anyone saying riders should not be on the wrong side is technically correct but that's not really constructive. Something needs to change as that was beyond a reasonable level of risk today.

Glad to hear there are no very serious injuries.

I agree that it is sometimes neccessary to go on the wrong side of the road, but when u do that u go to the front and either pushbor reposition yourself in the bunch somewhere. But u should definately not stay on the wrong side of the road on purpose to hold position and stop the riders that want to race from going to the front.

morana

I dont know if CI listen here any more but you can shout back

rate my ride

hopefully its active

padjo5

Inquitus wrote: »

We also shouldn't be racing with a field that size on roads where 2 cars could not even pass.

Interesting to read all these comments. Was planning to go to this, but didn't make it. Hope all fallers are ok.
I have been in races with relatively small numbers and lovely wide roads, lads will still break the rules! I'd say this has always happened in races and will continue to do so, until there are repercussions for breaking the rules...as has already been suggested by a few. In Kanturk a brave Marshall stopped the a4 race mid-race and warned the bunch to cop on and stick to the left side of the road, or face disqualification. It worked to a degree, and anyone who he observed crossing the white line was disqualified at the end of each day.
Any results from today no??

morana

morana wrote: »

I dont know if CI listen here any more but you can shout back

rate my ride

hopefully its active

but probably easier, cheaper and quicker just to come on here and read the threads! (Maybe they do I dont honestly know )

FrankGrimes

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Is this not a bit like saying "people should leave the car after drinking, but they do anyway", before a proper clamp down on drink-driving came into place?

Not at all. The point is that there needs to first be an acknowledgement that there is a widespread issue with riding on the wrong side of the road: several serious accidents have already happened as a result and it is very fortunate that they have not resulted in very serious injuries.

The first step in making progress with drink driving was acknowledging the severity and extent of the issue.

@Beasty - so the first thing I suggest be done is for there to be official acknowledgement of the extent of wrong-siding currently taking place and the risk (and contravention of both CI rules and the rules of the road) it poses both to rider safety and the sustainability of the current road race model (which could be threatened as per the Swords case).

The second thing is to then issue a directive from CI on what the consequences (more on what those could be below) of wrong-siding will be. I've heard individual commisairres the odd time say before races that there'd be consequences for wrong-siding and thought 'fair play to him' as he tried to gain the crowd's attention. But it seems actual cases of reprimands are very rare and certainly not affecting the large numbers doing it.

It seems the 'what to do about it?' question has two parts - detection and consequences. If we had widespread detection, even if the penalty was minor (I dunno, names of warned riders reported to clubs/CI website/Stickybottle, commissairre seeking out each rider for a warning at the end of the race), it would act as a strong deterrent for many (i.e. just removing the 'nothing will ever happen' mentality would make a big impact on many people).

Commissaires could be asked to report all wrongsiders to CI whereby their race number is added to a database - I dunno, two strikes and you're disqualified from a race, 4 and your license is postponed. Haven't had time to think through any of the details here, but you get the picture: whatever way this was configured, it should be possible, and it would give a very strong message.

Is there an unwritten acceptance that wrong-siding in the final KM for the sprint is ok? If not, race finish photos (or whatever evidence is used to determine placings) could be used - people on the wrong side at the finish either get warned or straight out disqualified. But I do have a hunch there is an unwritten acceptance that wrong-siding in a sprint is OK, and that's probably the nub right there - if that is the case, where is the line drawn?

Not sure about riders reporting other riders, could have repercussions and be open to abuse (maybe if two separate clubs report a rider for dangerous behaviour it's taken as corroborated and regarded as a warning). I know the officials in the front and rear cars have a lot on their plate, but maybe they could be asked to specifically track wrong-siders for at least a period of time until changes in behaviour are identified.

This is all top of mind thoughts, not necessarily thought through, but the key point is it needs to be acknowledged before a grave injury occurs and then there needs to be a window for riders/clubs to provide input on possible ways to address the issue.

buffalo

padjo5 wrote: »

Any results from today no??

http://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/u23-international-daniel-stewart-wins-colm-christle-memorial-from-colin-robinson/

I think this is the same race...

thebionicdude

Large parts of the circuit were on narrow winding roads without white lines. This made it harder for the bunch to keep left, especially when there were enough broken surfaces on the inside to make you want to ride closer to the middle (for safety) if you were sitting blind in the bunch. Processing gaps and moving up the bunch are a fundamental part of bike-racing. It's more difficult to do in larger bunches of mixed grades on narrower roads. Pelotons will inevitably stray.

It's a lovely circuit but it suits shorter races focused on speed rather than endurance. The former encourages line-outs and splits (smaller groups), whereas the latter encourages bunches as people try to save their energies.

Obviously, I'm grateful to the organisers and to those who competed for the races but if the talk afterwards was not about the racing, then there is a serious message worth heeding in there somewhere.