RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

CatFromHue

The English and French do play their finals in Twickenham and Stade de France but it's known at the start of the season that that's where the final will be played. The problem with the Rabo is that we can't specify a stadium at the start of the season as it could end up that the teams will be from a different country than where the stadium is.

Realistically I don't think two weeks is enough time to sell the amount of tickets to put a good atmosphere in any big national stadium.

The Rabo final is working well at the moment in that it's sold out every year and is a good occasion to go to.

You could also argue that having a home final is more fair than having a neutral final as it rewards a good finish in the league.

molloyjh

Anyone watching Cardiff-Scarlets? How in Gods name did Priestland miss that conversion!?

awec

CatFromHue wrote: »

You could also argue that having a home final is more fair than having a neutral final as it rewards a good finish in the league.

Now come on. Leinster play multiple home games at the Aviva during the year - it's hardly a completely neutral venue for them.

matthew8

I thought having the rabo final in the RDS last year did the league no harm. Cracking atmosphere, as good as a Heineken cup knockout, packed stadium with both fans, it really made the league feel like a big deal. I'd rather a packed RDS/Thomond/Ravenhill than 35k in the Aviva. Glasgow hosting the final could be problematic though.

CatFromHue

Liam Williams.........another yellow card.

He did seem to purposely tackle the guy in the air.......

Very lucky as the refs were talking about where Cuthbert landed, which was on his hip.

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Now come on. Leinster play multiple home games at the Aviva during the year - it's hardly a completely neutral venue for them.

We play two and Munster play one but my point was more that in the English and French leagues the only benefit of finishing top is you get a play off against the 4th placed team. In the Rabo you get the chance at a home Final.

The other multi country league, SuperXV, have it that the final is played in a home venue for the highest ranked team too.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

Liam Williams.........another yellow card.

He did seem to purposely tackle the guy in the air.......

Very lucky as the refs were talking about where Cuthbert landed, which was on his hip.

This drives me nuts. The resulting injury/action should have no bearing on a refs decision. It's like waiting for somebody to be seriously injured by a tip tackle before red carding them.

CatFromHue

Yeah it's a tricky one.

I'd have happily given Williams a red as it looked like he purposely took Cuthbert out in the air.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

This drives me nuts. The resulting injury/action should have no bearing on a refs decision.

Where has this notion come from?

It does have a bearing on the refs decision, as it should. The laws don't provision for when a yellow/red should be given and if you take a tackle in the air (for example) there are clearly different severities of offence.

It's like waiting for somebody to be seriously injured by a tip tackle before red carding them.

I don't really think it is, it's been mandated that a tip-tackle is a red, end of story, because of the consequences. The player in the William's incident basically landed on his arse.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

This drives me nuts. The resulting injury/action should have no bearing on a refs decision. It's like waiting for somebody to be seriously injured by a tip tackle before red carding them.

You're getting confused. Noone is waiting for someone to be injured. It is a greater offense if the tackled player lands on their head or neck, it's nothing to do with injury.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're getting confused. Noone is waiting for someone to be injured. It is a greater offense if the tackled player lands on their head or neck, it's nothing to do with injury.

He's only saying it shouldn't have a bearing, and he's right. It was pure luck that Cuthbert didn't land on his head today. A tip tackle is very different as there's a greater level of control over what happens. Williams ran straight into Cuthbert as he was in the air. He didn't even look at the ball, nevermind go for it. Williams shouldn't be punished any more or less based on sheer chance. He should be punished for his absolute recklessness that could easily have led to serious injury, regardless of how the player landed. No doubt in my mind that should have been a red.

danthefan

The Scarlets left winger looks fairly lively.

Hagz

Ever since that Payne incident, there seems to have been a huge spike in mid air collisions. It's so weird.

bilston

Hagz wrote: »

Ever since that Payne incident, there seems to have been a huge spike in mid air collisions. It's so weird.

Was thinking the same thing.

Taco Corp

or there is just more focus on them give the sending off. maybe everyone is looking for similarities

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

He's only saying it shouldn't have a bearing, and he's right. It was pure luck that Cuthbert didn't land on his head today. A tip tackle is very different as there's a greater level of control over what happens. Williams ran straight into Cuthbert as he was in the air. He didn't even look at the ball, nevermind go for it. Williams shouldn't be punished any more or less based on sheer chance. He should be punished for his absolute recklessness that could easily have led to serious injury, regardless of how the player landed. No doubt in my mind that should have been a red.

It's not sheer chance at all. If a player lands on his head it is because something different happened to what would have caused him to land on his back. Luck does enter into it, but the actions of the infringing player do as well.

When you're asking referees to make these decisions based on intent you also have to give them a framework of objective indicators or else it isn't fair. For example an intentional knock on, if it is a one handed attempt to grab the ball and the hand is moving away from the body. The same goes for tip tackles and mid air collisions, the refs are told that if the players lands on his head it is a red card offense. That shouldn't mean that it is ONLY a red card offense when the player lands on his head, and the memorandum specifically said that it isn't.



As for tip tackle v. mid air collision, luck completely enters into it when a player who has been tipped lands on their head. In fact I would say it's more down to luck for a tip tackle, because if you have a player in the air in a tackle and you lose control, their momentum brings them around onto their head (as you are holding them lower, so they pivot around that). That doesn't happen for mid air collisions. Full tip tackles are rarely intentional, I don't think people quite realise that.

CatFromHue

Cardiff won anyway.

Williams got a second yellow for slowing the ball down. Copeland stood on his head when he was and got a red card for it.

Buer

Moronic from Copeland. His season is over. He'll cop at least 4-6 weeks for that. Williams was red carded (second yellow) for his retaliation but he can't be blamed for it. Any player would throw a punch after being stamped on like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b82CoZ3RLIg

EDIT: Sorry, second yellow was for slowing ball down as CFH correctly states.

CatFromHue

Williams should have been red carded when he got his fist yellow, it was very intentional what he did.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

Williams should have been red carded when he got his fist yellow, it was very intentional what he did.

Yup, I think we can expect him to be cited for it. It was a nasty piece of play by our favourite Scarlet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cKsphRkj4

Morf

Buer wrote: »

Yup, I think we can expect him to be cited for it. It was a nasty piece of play by our favourite Scarlet.

Ahem . .

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Buer wrote: »

Moronic from Copeland. His season is over. He'll cop at least 4-6 weeks for that. Williams was red carded (second yellow) for his retaliation but he can't be blamed for it. Any player would throw a punch after being stamped on like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b82CoZ3RLIg

EDIT: Sorry, second yellow was for slowing ball down as CFH correctly states.

Well disciplined player wouldn't . Especially knowing they were already on a yellow. I've never quiet disliked a rugby player as much as Williams. Terrible role model

Mahatma Geansai

Buer wrote: »

Moronic from Copeland. His season is over. He'll cop at least 4-6 weeks for that. Williams was red carded (second yellow) for his retaliation but he can't be blamed for it. Any player would throw a punch after being stamped on like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b82CoZ3RLIg

Stupid from Copeland, but I don't think anyone of us could put our hands up and say that we've never wanted to kick Williams in the head. I'd imagine his season will also be over for purposely taking the Cardiff player out in the air.

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Stupid from Copeland, but I don't think anyone of us could put our hands up and say that we've never wanted to kick Williams in the head. I'd imagine his season will also be over for purposely taking the Cardiff player out in the air.

There is absoltuely no defense for kicking someone in the head, regardless of who they are. Williams is a dirty player of course, but Copeland should be ashamed.

Buer

Indeed. He had an outside chance of going to Argentina this summer but almost certainly being ruled out of the last two games and showing such poor discipline may well have cost him any hope.

Molester Stallone

CatFromHue wrote: »

We play two and Munster play one but my point was more that in the English and French leagues the only benefit of finishing top is you get a play off against the 4th placed team. In the Rabo you get the chance at a home Final.

The other multi country league, SuperXV, have it that the final is played in a home venue for the highest ranked team too.

What home game do Munster play in the aviva?

Buer

They don't. They play once every season there against Leinster.

The Lost Sheep

On tackles/collisions in the air we referees are under fairly clear guidelines.
The Safety requirement of protecting players in the air comes into what occurs after collision. an Unintentional act does not mean no YC/RC. A chasing player saying they have their eyes on the ball is not a strong enough argument as they have a responsibility for the safety of the receiver.

A player jumping without really contesting for the ball is an illegal action and that player is open to sanction and a player who is not really contesting for the ball for instance, he is running into the player who is trying to catch the ball mainly to disrupt the reception of the ball is an illegal action and player is open to sanction.

A player not jumping to contest the ball must not take out a jumping receiver. Looking at the ball does not make this action legal.

Like in the tackle where the tackler is responsible for the safety of the tackled player, the chasing player is responsible for the safety of the player in the air.

For any illegal action, like for a tip tackle, it is the way in which the player falls and the part of the body that the player falls on which is relevant. If a player lands on his head/neck, it should be a red card.

matthew8

Biggar's kicking to touch off penalties is quality. Great to see someone go for every inch and succeed.

Buer

Half time and no score in Dragons/Ospreys. The Dragons could do Ulster a massive favour.

Surprising that Ospreys aren't doing better; game is in a neutral venue.

matthew8

All Ospreys in the first half. If they had any bottle at the tryline they'd be 21-0 up but every time they get close they mess it up. Dragons did not have a sniff. 90% territory for Ospreys. They also turned down a fair few shots at goal, maybe recognising the importance of the bonus point.

Buer

Dragons try. Ulster are going to benefit hugely from this score if they see it out.

Buer

I think Ospreys must be resigned to Adam Jones leaving them. They're investing all their game time in Jarvis these days. The Leinster HEC game is the only game that Jones has started for them this year; he's been a sub in all of his other 5 or 6 appearances for them since the new year.

matthew8

I've never seen a less clinical performance by any team in my life. They must have had 20 visits to the Dragons 22 with zero points return.

CatFromHue

Molester Stallone wrote: »

What home game do Munster play in the aviva?

They don't but they do play there every year.

Again my point was that be able to play a final in the Rabo is a greater reward for finishing first than in the other leagues in Europe.

Molester Stallone

CatFromHue wrote: »

They don't but they do play there every year.

Again my point was that be able to play a final in the Rabo is a greater reward for finishing first than in the other leagues in Europe.

That paragraph makes no sense, sorry

matthew8

That is an absolute howler from Spratt. Slaps the ball forward, gets himself a yellow and the Dragons a chance to level it at 10-10.

Buer

Molester Stallone wrote: »

That paragraph makes no sense, sorry

Finishing 1st in the Pro12 means you play your final in your home ground unlike the AP or T14 finals thus it's a greater reward.

thomond2006

Molester Stallone wrote: »

That paragraph makes no sense, sorry

Munster play Leinster once a year in the Aviva?

awec

The inconsistency from referees is absolutely infuriating.

Just saw the Williams' issue - how's that not a red then? :rolleyes:

Molester Stallone

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster play Leinster once a year in the Aviva?

He's on about the final being in the home ground I think. You know, the home ground that Munster play 1 away game a year & the same ground Leinster play a half dozen or so every year

Buer

Molester Stallone wrote: »

He's on about the final being in the home ground I think. You know, the home ground that Munster play 1 away game a year & the same ground Leinster play a half dozen or so every year

Eh? Leinster play 2 games in Lansdowne a season unless there's a HEC knock out there (of which there has been 1 in the past 3 years).

thomond2006

Molester Stallone wrote: »

He's on about the final being in the home ground I think. You know, the home ground that Munster play 1 away game a year & the same ground Leinster play a half dozen or so every year

Half a dozen? They play four at most and that's if they progress in Europe.

matthew8

And it's all Ospreys again and they lead 20-10 with a couple of minutes left.

Molester Stallone

thomond2006 wrote: »

Half a dozen? They play four at most and that's if they progress in Europe.

True enough, but they have the option of switching group matches there if they wish,

Buer

Molester Stallone wrote: »

True enough, but they have the option of switching group matches there if they wish,

Leinster are contractually obligated to have a certain number of games in the RDS every season; the only games that could be moved there would be additional knock out games.

Molester Stallone

Buer wrote: »

Leinster are contractually obligated to have a certain number of games in the RDS every season; the only games that could be moved there would be additional knock out games.

Sorry, i thought they moved a game against Clermont there a couple of years ago & that it was an option if required, I may be mistaken

danthefan

Molester Stallone wrote: »

Sorry, i thought they moved a game against Clermont there a couple of years ago & that it was an option if required, I may be mistaken

Leinster play one league game and one HEC pool game a year in Lansdowne, plus a HEC QF if it happens. A league SF would be in the RDS. Leinster don't get to pick the HEC SF venue.

Buer

I've just realised that Ospreys have a short turnaround for their next game. They need to claim two BP wins in their last two games to have a serious shot at taking 4th spot but that will be hindered significantly by the fact that they've a ridiculous 4 days turnaround for their away game at Zebre.

After a hard fought win today, there's no way they can be adequately prepared for a game on Thursday. I assume they'll fly out on Wednesday and have their captain's run in the morning which will probably give them one training session this week.

matthew8

Buer wrote: »

I've just realised that Ospreys have a short turnaround for their next game. They need to claim two BP wins in their last two games to have a serious shot at taking 4th spot but that will be hindered significantly by the fact that they've a ridiculous 4 days turnaround for their away game at Zebre.

After a hard fought win today, there's no way they can be adequately prepared for a game on Thursday. I assume they'll fly out on Wednesday and have their captain's run in the morning which will probably give them one training session this week.

Their game's not this Thursday, it's the Thursday after.