RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

irishbucsfan · 07-05-2014 4:29pm

phog wrote: »

It seems to me you only want to count penalites conceded that will assist your argument.

No, I only count penalties conceded that shouldn't have been. Exactly like the penalties Leinster were conceding in the early part of the season.

If Ulster, due to their injuries, concede a load of penalties in the scrum between now and the end of the season it's completely understandable, as another example. If they start getting frustrated by that and piss off the referee and get sloppy in open play its less understandable.

phog · 07-05-2014 4:43pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, I only count penalties conceded that shouldn't have been. Exactly like the penalties Leinster were conceding in the early part of the season.

If Ulster, due to their injuries, concede a load of penalties in the scrum between now and the end of the season it's completely understandable, as another example. If they start getting frustrated by that and piss off the referee and get sloppy in open play its less understandable.

But they're not really doing that, you could certainly argue the red cards were unfortuante/clumsy rather than ill diciplined.

If Toner hadn't turned back to try and place/secure the ball for Leinster then he might not have been dumped on his head and Court might just have escaped with a yellow.

Tox56 · 07-05-2014 4:49pm

phog wrote: »

But they're not really doing that, you could certainly argue the red cards were unfortuante/clumsy rather than ill diciplined.

If Toner hadn't turned back to try and place/secure the ball for Leinster then he might have been dumped on his head and Court might just have escaped with a yellow.

Well in the first half against Leinster at least that's exactly what they were doing. I haven't watched all their games closely but their discipline was appalling at the start of the Leinster game. Even leaving aside the red card incident Leinster only needed to hold onto the ball for a prolonged length of time and a penalty was inevitable.

After the Williams punch incident im convinced the ref didn't give a pen at the resulting line out maul purely because he'd already pinged Ulster off the park beforehand. I saw it pointed out on LF and watching it back it was incredibly obvious, there were players coming in from all angles and if Ulster hadn't already gone down a man and been penalised off the park with the crowd incensed, he would surely have given a pen.

former legend · 07-05-2014 4:50pm

Ehh, why did Tom Court not get cited?

thomond2006 · 07-05-2014 4:50pm

former legend wrote: »

Ehh, why did Tom Court not get cited?

Yeah there's an automatic hearing isn't there?

P_1 · 07-05-2014 4:51pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Hmm it's an interesting one. Maybe only if it was Munster. Glasgow wouldn't draw enough. Leinster Munster league final in the Aviva for BOD's last ever game... holy crap.

That said, there's the small matter of the semifinal first..

True but one does need to nominate their venue before the semi final although if Leinster (or indeed Munster or Glasgow) don't get any moolah from hosting the final then there probably isn't much incentive for them to do so. Now if the Pro12 organisers were looking for a quick buck mind I'd imagine that there might be some pressure put on Leinster to nominate the Palindrome.

Riskymove · 07-05-2014 5:15pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Yeah there's an automatic hearing isn't there?

you don't get cited for being sent off, there is a formal process

citing is where you haven't been punished at the time

Teferi · 07-05-2014 5:26pm

phog wrote: »

If Toner hadn't turned back to try and place/secure the ball for Leinster then he might have been dumped on his head and Court might just have escaped with a yellow.

Blaming Toner for being upended. Nice one.

P_1 · 07-05-2014 5:28pm

phog wrote: »

But they're not really doing that, you could certainly argue the red cards were unfortuante/clumsy rather than ill diciplined.

If Toner hadn't turned back to try and place/secure the ball for Leinster then he might have been dumped on his head and Court might just have escaped with a yellow.

Seriously? One of the basics of rugby is that, when you get tackled you do your best to ensure quick ball at the next breakdown, to do that generally you need to turn back to place the ball.

sydthebeat · 07-05-2014 5:30pm

phog wrote: »

But they're not really doing that, you could certainly argue the red cards were unfortuante/clumsy rather than ill diciplined.

If Toner hadn't turned back to try and place/secure the ball for Leinster then he might have been dumped on his head and Court might just have escaped with a yellow.

dear god!!!!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

phog · 07-05-2014 9:12pm

Teferi wrote: »

Blaming Toner for being upended. Nice one.

P_1 wrote: »

Seriously? One of the basics of rugby is that, when you get tackled you do your best to ensure quick ball at the next breakdown, to do that generally you need to turn back to place the ball.

sydthebeat wrote: »

dear god!!!!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Absolutely missing the point.

thomond2006 · 07-05-2014 9:50pm

I'm lost.

If Toner was dumped on his head then how would Court only get a yellow? Is that sentence missing a 'not' as in not dumped?

sydthebeat · 07-05-2014 9:59pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm lost.

If Toner was dumped on his head then how would Court only get a yellow? Is that sentence missing a 'not' as in not dumped?

thats how i took it....

edit: i see phog has edited his post.....

which is still flabbergasting!!!!

you simply cannot apportion any blame to the lifted player in the outcome. The lifter has to bear the responsibility of how the lifted player lands.

P_1 · 07-05-2014 10:02pm

phog wrote: »

Absolutely missing the point.

Well what was the point then? From my reading of your post you seemed to be suggesting that Court's tackle was clumsy at best (which is fair enough) and that Toner contributed to it by doing what is usually expected of somebody when they''re getting tackled (which seems to have caused the general bafflement/bemusement).

Podge_irl · 07-05-2014 10:32pm

I don't think he's blaming Toner. Just saying on a different occasion it could easily have had a different outcome and we wouldn't necessarily be so focused on Ulster's poor discipline.

sydthebeat · 07-05-2014 10:35pm

That's like saying the sky is blue and the grass is green.
...

awec · 07-05-2014 11:28pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

dear god!!!!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's like saying the sky is blue and the grass is green.
...

Enough of that - he's entitled to his view.

molloyjh · 08-05-2014 9:03am

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think he's blaming Toner. Just saying on a different occasion it could easily have had a different outcome and we wouldn't necessarily be so focused on Ulster's poor discipline.

This. I didn't, and wouldn't, read what phog said as apportioning blame at all.

Ulsters discipline in the opening quarter particularly was very poor, and only got worse after the red. They just seemed to lose the rag. Had Williams stayed on in the first half he was heading for trouble. And Muller didn't appear to be helping.

That said ours wasn't great either at that point in the game...

Teferi · 08-05-2014 9:19am

If my aunt had a mickey lads...

If we're going to play the 'what if' game, what if Toner had of landed poorly and broken his neck?

ssaye2 · 08-05-2014 12:05pm

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9301854,00.html

Cardiff Blues have announced the signing of powerful back-row forward Manoa Vosawai, who joins them from Treviso at the end of the season.

Fijian-born Vosawai, who has won 14 caps for Italy, becomes the latest recruit ahead of 2014/15, with New Zealand international second-row Jarrad Hoeata, Exeter tighthead Craig Mitchell, Scarlets flanker Josh Turnbull, Gloucester scrum-half Tavis Knoyle, Bristol wing George Watkins and Dragons back-row Ieuan Jones also joining....

molloyjh · 08-05-2014 12:13pm

ssaye2 wrote: »

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9301854,00.html

Cardiff Blues have announced the signing of powerful back-row forward Manoa Vosawai, who joins them from Treviso at the end of the season.

Fijian-born Vosawai, who has won 14 caps for Italy, becomes the latest recruit ahead of 2014/15, with New Zealand international second-row Jarrad Hoeata, Exeter tighthead Craig Mitchell, Scarlets flanker Josh Turnbull, Gloucester scrum-half Tavis Knoyle, Bristol wing George Watkins and Dragons back-row Ieuan Jones also joining....

Jesus, will Treviso have anyone left to play for them next season!?

ssaye2 · 08-05-2014 12:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus, will Treviso have anyone left to play for them next season!?

Some of the Leinster/ academy lads should travel to Italy for a season or two, great food, weather, better than B and I cup.

ssaye2 · 08-05-2014 12:16pm

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3825_9302177,00.html

Auckland coach Wayne Pivac has resigned from his position to take up a post with PRO12 outfit the Scarlets.

Pivac, who has been in charge of Auckland for the past two seasons, taking them to the ITM Cup final in 2012 and the semi-finals in 2013, will be the Scarlets' new assistant coach.

+
Only 23 still Dirksen, good player

The Ospreys have announced that winger Hanno Dirksen has signed a new contract with the region.

The 23-year old has penned a three-year deal, making him the 13th player to re-commit so far in 2014.

+
Hulking Fijian international prop Jerry Yanuyanutawa has put pen to paper on a new one-year deal with Glasgow Warriors.

The 29-year-old scored a crucial try in the 12-6 win over Leinster in September and has gone on to make 16 appearances for the Scotstoun-based side since joining last summer.

Cookiemunster · 08-05-2014 3:48pm

So Court got a 2 week ban, with 1 week added as a deterrent, then had it reduced by 3 weeks, but is still banned until May 18th. I'm confused http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14992.php

Podge_irl · 08-05-2014 3:50pm

They must mean reduced by 1 week. Convoluted nonsense either way.

CatFromHue · 08-05-2014 3:51pm

There must be a typo in there somewhere. The 18 May would be 2 weeks after the game so he's been suspended for 2 weeks.

molloyjh · 08-05-2014 3:51pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So Court got a 2 week ban, with 1 week added as a deterrent, then had it reduced by 3 weeks, but is still banned until May 18th. I'm confused http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14992.php

Riiiight.

Having just read Quinlans piece on the leagues officiating I find that quite amusing.

irishbucsfan · 08-05-2014 3:53pm

They could make it much clearer. Basically he's suspended for the last game of the season and the semi-final but he'll be available for the final.

awec · 08-05-2014 3:55pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They could make it much clearer. Basically he's suspended for the last game of the season and the semi-final but he'll be available for the final.

irishbucsfan writing Leinster off for the semi final then...

thomond2006 · 08-05-2014 4:02pm

I'm a broken record on this but this Christmas present like mitigation makes a mockery of the discipline system.

So basically if you turn up in a nice suit, act mannerly at the trial and smile at the disciplinary committee you get one or two weeks off the sentence. Christ sake.

vienne86 · 08-05-2014 4:40pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm a broken record on this but this Christmas present like mitigation makes a mockery of the discipline system.

So basically if you turn up in a nice suit, act mannerly at the trial and smile at the disciplinary committee you get one or two weeks off the sentence. Christ sake.

Plain stupid. But if they stop this leniency now, those who don't benefit from it will feel hard done by. Maybe next season they'll start afresh.

Riskymove · 08-05-2014 4:57pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm a broken record on this but this Christmas present like mitigation makes a mockery of the discipline system.

So basically if you turn up in a nice suit, act mannerly at the trial and smile at the disciplinary committee you get one or two weeks off the sentence. Christ sake.

I disagree

I have no problem with previous history being considered

if you have form then get more and if you don't get some leniency

I see nothing wrong with that when it's a time based punishment

Buer · 08-05-2014 5:04pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I disagree

I have no problem with previous history being considered

if you have form then get more and if you don't get some leniency

I see nothing wrong with that when it's a time based punishment

If you don't you should get nothing i.e. the entry level ban, not the entry level ban which is further reduced.

You shouldn't get time off because you're not a repeat offender but you should get additional time if you're a habitual offender.

former legend · 08-05-2014 5:39pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So Court got a 2 week ban, with 1 week added as a deterrent, then had it reduced by 3 weeks, but is still banned until May 18th. I'm confused http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14992.php

He got 4 weeks + 1 as deterrent minus 3 = 2 weeks net.

irishbucsfan · 08-05-2014 5:45pm

former legend wrote: »

He got 4 weeks + 1 as deterrent minus 3 = 2 weeks net.

I think that article has been edited since earlier today.

CatFromHue · 08-05-2014 6:05pm

Yeah it's been edited.

matthew8 · 08-05-2014 7:38pm

Things could get very ugly for Treviso next season. Hard to know what their plan will be. Sign a bunch of players from the Excellenza? I suspect they'll have to go down the Edinburgh route of signing Southern Hemisphere journeymen. The only bright side is that with the worsening quality of most of the other already weak teams means they can still win a couple of game but it's a shame that now that Zebre have finally looked like a team headed in the right direction that Treviso are now firmly headed in the wrong one.

CatFromHue · 08-05-2014 10:29pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Things could get very ugly for Treviso next season. Hard to know what their plan will be. Sign a bunch of players from the Excellenza? I suspect they'll have to go down the Edinburgh route of signing Southern Hemisphere journeymen. The only bright side is that with the worsening quality of most of the other already weak teams means they can still win a couple of game but it's a shame that now that Zebre have finally looked like a team headed in the right direction that Treviso are now firmly headed in the wrong one.

I do wonder how it's going to work next season as some of the Welsh teams are recruiting well.

Cardiff are losing Halfpenny (started 10 this season and 13 last), Bradley Davies (started 8 this season and 11 last), Copeland (who does play alot), G. Davies (who does play alot), and Harry Robinson (who does play alot) as well as a few others.

They've signed Hoeatta, Voswai, Knoyle, Ieuan Jones, and Josh Turnbull as well as a few others.

Overall they may end up possibly being stronger next season.

Lanelli and Dragons have signed a few handy players too.

former legend · 08-05-2014 11:10pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Things could get very ugly for Treviso next season. Hard to know what their plan will be. Sign a bunch of players from the Excellenza? I suspect they'll have to go down the Edinburgh route of signing Southern Hemisphere journeymen. The only bright side is that with the worsening quality of most of the other already weak teams means they can still win a couple of game but it's a shame that now that Zebre have finally looked like a team headed in the right direction that Treviso are now firmly headed in the wrong one.

Treviso are losing a heap of players who brought them what? Bottom place in the Rabo, scrapping with Zebre for the Italian spot in the upper tier of Europe next year? That's despite what is, on paper, a decent squad.

I don't like seeing clubs losing some of their best players, but things are rotten in Treviso so a bit of a clear-out might not be the worst thing.

Riskymove · 09-05-2014 9:05am

Buer wrote: »

If you don't you should get nothing i.e. the entry level ban, not the entry level ban which is further reduced.

fair enough, the article (before edited) suggested just that

danthefan · 09-05-2014 9:06am

former legend wrote: »

Treviso are losing a heap of players who brought them what? Bottom place in the Rabo, scrapping with Zebre for the Italian spot in the upper tier of Europe next year? That's despite what is, on paper, a decent squad.

I don't like seeing clubs losing some of their best players, but things are rotten in Treviso so a bit of a clear-out might not be the worst thing.

Fair point. They've been phoning it in for the last few weeks/months. The team that played Leinster the other week had a good few internationals in it and Leinster scored 60 points.

molloyjh · 09-05-2014 10:19am

danthefan wrote: »

Fair point. They've been phoning it in for the last few weeks/months. The team that played Leinster the other week had a good few internationals in it and Leinster scored 60 points.

The very public spat between the club and the Italian Union can't have helped. Smith (the coach) leaving mid-season plus all the departures planned for next season on top of that must have played a huge part too. They had developed well over the last few years. So much so that their position this year is actually a bit of a shock. They'd worked their way up to 7th last season in fairness.

.ak · 09-05-2014 1:46pm

With all the focus on the top 4 teams I haven't been keeping up with the bottom dwellers... How on earth are Treviso last? Where did they finish up last season?

molloyjh · 09-05-2014 1:52pm

.ak wrote: »

With all the focus on the top 4 teams I haven't been keeping up with the bottom dwellers... How on earth are Treviso last? Where did they finish up last season?

7th. Although they are away to Dragons while Zebre are away to Glasgow this weekend so unless Treviso get nothing from their game or Zebre stun Glasgow that will change tomorrow.

I actually want Dragons to beat Treviso and prevent them getting a LBP just so we can see Zebre qualify for the Champions Cup.

irishbucsfan · 09-05-2014 1:53pm

.ak wrote: »

With all the focus on the top 4 teams I haven't been keeping up with the bottom dwellers... How on earth are Treviso last? Where did they finish up last season?

The only positions that really matter going into the last weekend are the top 2 and the bottom 2.

Treviso have been dire this season, Zebre deserve to finish above them, but it's all up to Dragons dispatching Treviso effectively, and I don't trust them to do that at all.

molloyjh · 09-05-2014 2:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The only positions that really matter going into the last weekend are the top 2 and the bottom 2.

Treviso have been dire this season, Zebre deserve to finish above them, but it's all up to Dragons dispatching Treviso effectively, and I don't trust them to do that at all.

Dragons prevented them getting the LBP in Rodney Parade last season when Treviso were doing a lot better. Plus Trevisos form away from home has been muck. They've lost every away game this season and only gotten 3 LBPs from the 10 games (Edinburgh, Cardiff & Zebre).

Granted they have more to play for (although with so many of their squad leaving this summer that's debatable) but Rodney Parade is a tough place to get anything from, especially if you're really struggling the way Treviso are.

irishbucsfan · 09-05-2014 2:06pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Dragons prevented them getting the LBP in Rodney Parade last season when Treviso were doing a lot better. Plus Trevisos form away from home has been muck. They've lost every away game this season and only gotten 3 LBPs from the 10 games (Edinburgh, Cardiff & Zebre).

Granted they have more to play for (although with so many of their squad leaving this summer that's debatable) but Rodney Parade is a tough place to get anything from, especially if you're really struggling the way Treviso are.

Hopefully that will prove to be the case, but the Dragons are particularly poor this season. They've only won 2 games this year and one of those was against Mogliano. They drew with Zebre and lost to Edinburgh. But then they beat Glasgow.

So hard to say how it'll go. If I had to put money on it, I'd say Treviso will squeak through. But I would want it to be Zebre, because I think they're a better team.

errlloyd · 09-05-2014 2:12pm

I don't think Zebre are a better team tbh, I think Treviso are. I think some teams were guilty of horribly underestimating Zebre and it cost them. It's a nice reversal of fortune for them, but it reflects very poorly on Treviso.

matthew8 · 09-05-2014 2:21pm

Dragons are favoured by exactly 7 with Paddy Power. I expect Treviso to scrape a losing bonus point. Dragons in terrible form. Couldn't beat Connacht or Edinburgh at home. Strong Treviso team too.

molloyjh · 09-05-2014 2:24pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hopefully that will prove to be the case, but the Dragons are particularly poor this season. They've only won 2 games this year and one of those was against Mogliano. They drew with Zebre and lost to Edinburgh. But then they beat Glasgow.

So hard to say how it'll go. If I had to put money on it, I'd say Treviso will squeak through. But I would want it to be Zebre, because I think they're a better team.

They beat Ulster, Scarlets, Glasgow (home and away), Cardiff & Zebre in the league while Zebre beat Cardiff home and away. I'm not sure how much individual results tell us, and you're right they've been poor for most of the season including a 45-27 loss to Treviso last month. But they are still sticky opposition when at home so fingers crossed. Zebre are going the right direction while Treviso are falling apart. From that perspective Zebre do deserve it.

RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

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