RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

[Jackass]

This is a nightmare.

Just to comment on the actual announcement, they didn't say they are out of the Pro12, they said "Benetton Rugby from now on declares itself available to consider, and eventually participate, in future tournaments or games that the Italian Rugby Federation wishes to propose, once the RaboDirect PRO12 competition is defined".

The "defined" bit at the end is kind of what it all swings on and presumably is lost in translation (do they mean completed?). Either way, maybe I'm clutching at straws, but it seems more of a throwing down of the gauntlet than an actual announcement of pulling out - which would more than likely relate to the 1 million+ the Italian teams have to pay to participate in the Pro12 each season (a fee not applicable to any other teams).

It may be opportunistic haggling given how fragile the Pro12 is with the Welsh regions looking to pull out and the European situation, it would give the Italians quite a strong bargaining position if / when Celtic rugby approach them to see what it will take to keep them in the tournament.

It's also worth noting that Treviso, unlike Zebre, are not union owned and are more of the French model of private benefactor. This may also have a part to play in the announcement coming from just one of the Italian clubs and not through the union.

It's a serious situation and would be an absolute disaster (for the Pro12 AND the Italian domestic game) if the Italian teams were to leave the league, but I wouldn't give up on a deal being done just yet.

[Jackass]

bardcom wrote: »

British Isles what??? Do the channel islands have a team? Or the isle if man? If you are talking about UK and Ireland, then say UK and Ireland. Or GB and Ireland. Or British and Irish.

But yeah, I get what you mean. I'd imagine that a B+I league would be pretty attractive to sponsors.

Canada is part of North America or New Zealand is part of Australasia in the same sense that Ireland is part of the British Isles. It is a geographic reference point, not with any political undertones.

aimee1

[Jackass] wrote: »

This is a nightmare.

Just to comment on the actual announcement, they didn't say they are out of the Pro12, they said "Benetton Rugby from now on declares itself available to consider, and eventually participate, in future tournaments or games that the Italian Rugby Federation wishes to propose, once the RaboDirect PRO12 competition is defined".

The "defined" bit at the end is kind of what it all swings on and presumably is lost in translation (do they mean completed?). Either way, maybe I'm clutching at straws, but it seems more of a throwing down of the gauntlet than an actual announcement of pulling out - which would more than likely relate to the 1 million+ the Italian teams have to pay to participate in the Pro12 each season (a fee not applicable to any other teams).

It may be opportunistic haggling given how fragile the Pro12 is with the Welsh regions looking to pull out and the European situation, it would give the Italians quite a strong bargaining position if / when Celtic rugby approach them to see what it will take to keep them in the tournament.

It's also worth noting that Treviso, unlike Zebre, are not union owned and are more of the French model of private benefactor. This may also have a part to play in the announcement coming from just one of the Italian clubs and not through the union.

It's a serious situation and would be an absolute disaster (for the Pro12 AND the Italian domestic game) if the Italian teams were to leave the league, but I wouldn't give up on a deal being done just yet.

I think i read somewhere the Benetton are pulling their sponsorship at the end of this season too.

What is the logic behind the Italians paying to participate? The other teams get two extra home games which should generate enough money to cover the additional travel.

thomond2006

My source tells me the Treviso statement is simply haggling the union for more cash.

irishbucsfan

No one is pulling out yet. People are overreacting. This is more about the relationship between the Benetton family and the FIR than the Rabo at this point, they're asserting their "independence."

thomond2006

Benetton family could buy a World XV tomorrow if they wanted. Time to lobby!

molloyjh

For the record Treviso haven't actually said that they are leaving the Pro12. It says that they feel that the agreement re the Pro12 has come to it's natural end. They are now prepared to do what they are told by their Union, including remaining in the Pro12.

It is just them falling back into line after coming out against the FIR a few weeks back. Obviously the uncertainty over the Welsh sides is adding to the Italians concerns, but they haven't actually conclusively said they are leaving.

http://www.benettonrugby.it/novita.aspx?idC=3144

Fireball07

Treviso pulling out would be a disaster for the league imo.


The league is already on a fairly weak footing this season, let alone next season, with half of Wales emigrating. The Italian teams mightn't be great, but at least they give decent games most of the time. Irish rugby cannot survive on each other + Glasgow. They need strong opposition to play...

errlloyd

I'm not sure the IRFU have a strategy in place for if the Welsh and Italians do pull the plug.

It seems unfortunate that Leinster, Munster and Ulster are arguably three of the strongest brands in European rugby, along with Leicster they are probably the strongest clubs outside of France. (In terms of support, merchandise sales, squad depth, roots) and they could be homeless next year.

That said, a Scottish friend got on to me earlier, he thinks it's curtains for pro rugby in Scotland.

Madworld

It would never happen, but if they did pull out, it would be good for the development of rugby to have a rest of Europe XV entered into the league, and based somewhere convenient like Holland or Belgium.

Morf

Half time chips in the home of chips.

matthew8

Glasgow are back playing some great stuff tonight. If they could finish their chances they'd be well ahead but they're down by 7.

thomond2006

Late try means Glasgow win. Bad news for the provinces.

sydthebeat

The bAsic skill level of this treviso team is shocking. ...
Ospreys 14-0 up after 26 min

phog

Ospreys will surely pass out Ulster on the table.

We play them next week so hoping to get a win over there, the points will be important for our hopes of a home semi.

CatFromHue

49-7 with 20 mins to go!!!

Buer

That will be a big boost to points difference should it come into play which it might well do given how tight things are.

Buer

68-7 now.

Inspector Coptoor

75-7 final score.
Jaysis

CatFromHue

It ended 75-7!

I think that's the biggest ever score in the league.

There's been a few late 50's but don't think any 70's!

Buer

I wonder if Treviso will completely capitulate now given their plan to walk away from the league. That result is a disgrace.

CatFromHue

I thought they said they were going to do what the Italian RFU wanted not that they were leaving.

They've been getting between 7 and 10 wins per season so far in the league. They're on 3 now but games against Connacht (a), Edinburgh (h), and Dragons (home and away) still to play they could get their 7 wins still.

[Jackass]

Taken from another thread, but the Italians are set to announce a 4 year extension with the Pro12. As suspected, the "considering their options" (and never announcing they were pulling out) was all about removal of the participation fee, which has been agreed.

http://rugby1823.blogosfere.it/2014/02/pro-12-italia-in-celtic-league-fino-al-2018-e-ora.html

That defeat to Ospreys is terrible news for the league though, a very deflating result to progress by Italian teams. I don't think I've ever seen such a drumming in the league, must be by far the heaviest defeat / biggest win in the leagues history, unless there was a similar result against a partly amateur Welsh side back in the day.

[edit]

As suspected, there were some pretty one sided games in the early years, but it seems this is the new record thumping, first time anyone's reached the 70's!

Some of the other more one sided games in the leagues history:

Connacht 62 - 0 Caerphilly

Llanelli 62 - 6 Swansea (yikes! given their rivalry, I bet they still talk about that one to this day in Llanelli!)

Caerphilly 15 - 67 Ulster

Ospreys 60 - 7 Borders

Cardiff Blues 60 - 14 Munster (ouch! I think safe to say Munsters heaviest defeat ever)

Leinster 55 - 3 Dragons

Leinster 62 - 14 Borders

durkadurka

After a week of obvious results it should be an interesting week ahead in the Rabo, particularly with teams missing heaps of players :

Ulster should do a job at Treviso but none of the other big 5 sure of a result.



Thursday 20th February 2014
Cardiff Blues v Leinster 20:05

Saturday 22nd February 2014
Scarlets v Edinburgh 14:30

Sunday 23rd February 2014
Treviso v Ulster 14:00
NG Dragons v Glasgow 14:30
Ospreys v Munster 16:00
Zebre v Connacht 16:30


This week could be fairly decisive.

CatFromHue

Ospreys Munster is the pick.

Ospreys had their number last season beating them twice but Munster did beat them earlier this season.

durkadurka

Leinster will send a fairly ropey side to Cardiff too, particularly in the front row and in the three quarter line.

[Jackass]

The only interesting game in my opinion is the Ospreys v Munster game, as at least one of the five play-off chasers will be dropping points here. From a Leinster point of view and seeing as they're away, I'm really hopeful of an Ospreys result here, any kind of win would really shake up the play-off race and just pull Munster in a bit. It's nervous at the top, any slip up could be devastating, so I'm really hoping Leinster don't blink first.

The problem is of course not knowing what players you have available, but given the form Cardiff are in, I'd be very disappointed if we couldn't come away from Cardiff Arms Park with at least 4 points in the bag.

Treviso just took the biggest hiding in the leagues history, so can't see Ulster having any major problems over there and despite Dragons playing their best rugby for years, they're still a few levels below the play-off contender teams and even though they gave Leinster a scare, I can't see Glasgow not having too much for them, just hopefully they don't bag a BP win. Dragons could be a surprise package next season, but this season if you're competing for the top, you'd want to be getting a minimum of 9 match points off them.

No doubt O's v Munster the most decisive game of the weekend though.

This will be one of those games I suppose where everyone will say "Jeez ALWAYS support your fellow province! You're not a real Irish fan etc. etc." when it's completely counter intuitive towards the best interests of my own team, so no, I wont, I will be shouting for Ospreys and I think any rhetoric that dictates otherwise is pure lunacy. I'd be amazed if 99% of Connecht / Ulster / Munster / Leinster fans don't act the same way in situations where their team has something to benefit from it, even if they'd be too high and mighty to admit it. So who will you all be shouting for this weekend lads?

thomond2006

With a third of the season left the playoff race is already down to five teams. It's not exactly been competitive this season.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

With a third of the season left the playoff race is already down to five teams. It's not exactly been competitive this season.

There's a race for European qualification that might turn out to be interesting though.. possibly.

CatFromHue

It's pretty competitive between the top 5, especially if Ospreys win on the weekend, but Lanelli did fall away from the pack too soon.

If qualification for Europe comes down to Rabo finishing spot then the battle for 6th position should be good.

Morf

thomond2006 wrote: »

With a third of the season left the playoff race is already down to five teams. It's not exactly been competitive this season.

Took a look at the Premiership Rugby table lately?

Can't say it look much more competitive.

CatFromHue

Funny enough this weekends results have made a big difference to the English league.

Sale, Exeter, and Wasps lost while Leicester and Quins won. It was looking pretty tight for positions 4-8 on Friday.

[Jackass]

The problem with the Pro12 is the fall off in competitiveness of the Welsh regions. Not so long ago there were at least 6 teams in the contention at the top of the table, usually the 3 Irish, 2 Welsh (with Cardiff and Scarlets around play-off spots) and a Scottish.

Glasgow have come on leaps and bounds in the league and whilst Ospreys have gone backwards from a few years ago, they're still competitive.

Cardiff and Scarlets have fallen off the radar completely, they're as bad now as I've ever seen them, Edinburgh have been in free fall, Treviso, Zebre and Connacht were never going to be contenders.

The only hope is Dragons who seem to be making some pretty decent signings for next season and are performing very well in the league by their standards, at least they're a team on the up and could well earn a Heineken Cup spot on merit (if it exists).

But pretty much the way the league is going, the gap between top and bottom is widening more and more, we'll see that next season as well as the Welsh exodus continues (if they're still in the league), most of all, the gap from the three big Irish sides will only get more and more and more each season, I can see the league in a couple of years being nothing but a three horse race, with the likes of Ospreys and Glasgow hanging in there for a token play-off spot.

Not bad for teams who only care about the Heineken Cup and would have won nothing in Europe if relegation existed.

CatFromHue

Dunno about Glasgow and Ospreys hanging in there. I can see them competing like they have this season and the last few seasons.

Ulster are 5th now and I'd say if there'd been no postponed games this season they'd still be 5th and 4 points off 4th.

molloyjh

Morf wrote: »

Took a look at the Premiership Rugby table lately?

Can't say it look much more competitive.

In the Top5 maybe not. But there are 13 points between 5th and 6th in the Rabo. There's only 5 between 5th and 6th in the AP. 7th and 8th in the AP are both within 13 points of 5th too.

The Rabo has certainly been a lot less competitive this season. Scarlets and Cardiff have both fallen off a cliff in terms of form. Zebre are still whipping boys and Connacht have gone backwards too. Treviso managed 7th last season yet are 10th now having just lost by a record margin (75-7!). If they lose at home to Ulster this week they'll have equalled the number of losses they had all last season and they still have away games to Munster and Leinster, as well as a home game against Glasgow, to come.

European qualification will be the top 6 plus Treviso at this point so there may be an interesting battle between Scarlets, Dragons, Cardiff & Edinburgh for that last spot. But which of those sides, if any, are good enough to play HEC rugby (or whatever we're calling it next season)?

With question marks still over the league sponsorship will be hard to find. I'm sure we'll get something, but the level it will be at will not be significant. Why would anyone invest in this product as it stands with the Welsh Regions threatening to pull out, the top Welsh players leaving Wales and the Scots & Italians not really able to provide the goods and therefore the market? Add to that the possible reduction in European money going to the Welsh, Scottish and Italians alongside the increase in money going to the French and English and I'm genuinely very concerned about where we're headed.

Eod100

Anyone see the proposed new European rugby Champions Cup?

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/214883.html

Will it be based on the results of this season's Rabo if it goes ahead? Seems very late in the season to qualification format..

who_me

CatFromHue wrote: »

Dunno about Glasgow and Ospreys hanging in there. I can see them competing like they have this season and the last few seasons.

Ulster are 5th now and I'd say if there'd been no postponed games this season they'd still be 5th and 4 points off 4th.

Just noticed Glasgow have a 100% away record this season - not bad! If they keep that form up they'll stay up around 2nd or 3rd for the season. The lack of try bonus points (none so far this season) is likely to stop them taking top sport. Hard to say who'll lose out yet.

dregin

This could help Glasgow a little: http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/carlin-isles-signs-for-glasgow-warriors-could-make-debut-against-leinster/

Of course, they'd need to actually get some back play off the ground to make any use of his pace.

.ak

dregin wrote: »

This could help Glasgow a little: http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/carlin-isles-signs-for-glasgow-warriors-could-make-debut-against-leinster/

Of course, they'd need to actually get some back play off the ground to make any use of his pace.

Damn, all I read was Isles and Leinster in the url, got excited there.

DDC1990

dregin wrote: »

This could help Glasgow a little: http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/carlin-isles-signs-for-glasgow-warriors-could-make-debut-against-leinster/

Of course, they'd need to actually get some back play off the ground to make any use of his pace.

He'll be very useful in the bog in Scotstoun. :P

thomond2006

DDC1990 wrote: »

He'll be very useful in the bog in Scotstoun. :P

Glasgow come to Limerick on April 12th. If Isles is playing I'd go!

ssaye2

dregin wrote: »

This could help Glasgow a little: http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/carlin-isles-signs-for-glasgow-warriors-could-make-debut-against-leinster/

Of course, they'd need to actually get some back play off the ground to make any use of his pace.

Sub for the 7s team, generally impact sub, unbelievably fast but doesn't have the skillset and don't know if he ever will. More a signing to get bums on seats I think that anything else. Even the warriors fans are sceptical.

Hope it goes well for him, like the warriors.

dregin

Judging by his twitter, he seems to have a great attitude, so I expect him to knuckle down and work hard.

I don't expect much of him this season, but with good training in the off-season, he could be very useful next year.

.ak

Yeah, the thread about him earlier in the season was full negativity. I just don't get it. Guys can make the jump from being amateur to decent pro rugby players, it's just rare. Sure didn't Roberts only take up rugby in college? Isles mostly certainly has the skillset, just not the knowledge... yet.

thomond2006

Give him the ball and a yard of grass...

ssaye2

Rhys Priestland has handed the Scarlets and Welsh rugby a major boost by extending his contract with the West Wales region.
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9172261,00.html

Podge_irl

ssaye2 wrote: »

Rhys Priestland has handed everyone except Scarlets and Welsh rugby a major boost by extending his contract with the West Wales region.

Indeed

CatFromHue

The Dragons prop who speared Boss has been banned for 10 weeks, he'll only be available for 2 games at the end of the season.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/14257.php#.UwOA3vl_tgg

Fireball07

Another BP for Leinster closes the gap.


Competitiveness is a big problem this season, the improvement of Glasgow was a good thing for the league, but the deterioration of the Welsh regions is a big blow. Ospreys are still hanging around but they're not the force they were a few seasons back.

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

Another BP for Leinster closes the gap.


Competitiveness is a big problem this season, the improvement of Glasgow was a good thing for the league, but the deterioration of the Welsh regions is a big blow. Ospreys are still hanging around but they're not the force they were a few seasons back.

If by close the gap you mean give Leinster a two point lead then yes, you would be correct in saying Leinster are lording it at the top of the league