The Flash [** Spoilers ** ==> US pace]

Penn

CastorTroy wrote: »

Was

Justice Society

And as for

Tom Welling, he annoyed a lot of fans by refusing to don the costume. Of course now that he's disappeared into obscurity, maybe he'd be more open to it

He refused to wear the costume? I thought it was the producers of the show who didn't want him in the costume, just as they didn't want him to fly in the show either (I think he did once or twice, but only in extenuating circumstances). They had a "No tights. No flights" rule iirc.

EoinMcLovin

Penn wrote: »

He refused to wear the costume? I thought it was the producers of the show who didn't want him in the costume, just as they didn't want him to fly in the show either (I think he did once or twice, but only in extenuating circumstances). They had a "No tights. No flights" rule iirc.

Yeah that's what I thought too

Nervous Wreck

The "no tights no flight" rule was agreed by Gough/Millar and the network, not Welling himself. He did say he agreed with the decision (though I'd suspect that was more the case of a young actor speaking the company line than anything) but later said he'd be up for it. I actually think he woulda made a good Superman...

CastorTroy

Penn wrote: »

He refused to wear the costume? I thought it was the producers of the show who didn't want him in the costume, just as they didn't want him to fly in the show either (I think he did once or twice, but only in extenuating circumstances). They had a "No tights. No flights" rule iirc.

That was the original plan of the show but you'll notice that when they left, the series started using the look of comics more and had more of the known heroes like the Legion and Justice League. But Tom wouldn't even wear the costume at the end, which is why we never got a clear shot of him. So after the whole series building up to that moment, he didn't give the fans what they wanted

Ben Gadot

Never really got into Smallville, 7 or 8 seasons of Clark being on a journey to be the man he's destined to be....and while on that journey, he's already defeated most of his most bitter foes. :pac:

Also, you just can't do Doomsday and Darkseid on a tv budget without having to cut corners and cheapen things.

Gotham had a vastly improved 2nd season but is at risk of falling down the same trap. But as long they manage they're own ambition they should be ok for next season at least. Part of Smallville's problem is it went on for too long without a clearly mapped story.

GAAman

Just finished the season finale, had wondered if what will be coming in season three would happen. Wondered if Flash as a show was strong enough on its own merits go in that direction.

Not even spoilering what's coming, people who have read the comics or saw the excellent paradox will know though.

Looking forward to season three now

pah

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Never really got into Smallville, 7 or 8 seasons of Clark being on a journey to be the man he's destined to be

10 Seasons I think

larchielads

Lads how can Barry's dad be jay Garrick thought dopple gangers were supposed to have the same names and look the same in the dcu? If jay Garrick is from e3 like he said he was then what does Barry's dad look like on e3 considerin Barry wells iris Joe Sisco Caitlin all look the same on e1 as on e2???!

larchielads

larchielads wrote: »

Lads how can Barry's dad be jay Garrick thought dopple gangers were supposed to have the same names and look the same in the dcu? If jay Garrick is from e3 like he said he was then what does Barry's dad look like on e3 considerin Barry wells iris Joe Sisco Caitlin all look the same on e1 as on e2???!

Earth 2 is closer to Earth 1... Jay is from Earth 3 which is more different.

Look at Supergirl's Earth, way different

larchielads

but sure if he's the bloody image of barry dad should he not be barry dad. As I said barry looked like barry, Wells looked like wells, iris like iris etc etc. Doesn't make sense. They're supposed to be doppelgangers. What does barrys dad look like on e3?

larchielads

larchielads wrote: »

but sure if he's the bloody image of barry dad should he not be barry dad. As I said barry looked like barry, Wells looked like wells, iris like iris etc etc. Doesn't make sense. They're supposed to be doppelgangers. What does barrys dad look like on e3?

Who says that there is a Barry on E3?
There's none on Supergirl earth (no Olly either). Earth 2 just HAPPENS to be closer fo Earth 1 in events than Earth 3.
Infinite earths means infinite possibilities or combinations

Those dimensions would be similar upto a point and then start differing wildly, with an infinite combination of decisions happening all the time it wojld be MORE amazing to encounter the tiny fes wbi h are at all like your own.
Unless it takes less energy fo move to a similar dimension or something (probably technobabbled that their differing vibrational frequencies are close enough to allow a cross over)

googled eyes

Each earth is almost the same but has certain differences. Maybe on Earth 3 Barry's dad was never born or his mother never married and had a son called Jay, who happens to look just like Barry's dad because he almost is the same person except for these small differences.

So Earth 3 wouldn't have a Barry Allen because it's timeline changed before he was born
Earth 2 just happened to be a lot closer to our Earth

Penn

larchielads wrote: »

Lads how can Barry's dad be jay Garrick thought dopple gangers were supposed to have the same names and look the same in the dcu? If jay Garrick is from e3 like he said he was then what does Barry's dad look like on e3 considerin Barry wells iris Joe Sisco Caitlin all look the same on e1 as on e2???!

There might not be a Barry on Earth 3. Maybe Jay Garrick was off saving someone and never met the woman who, on Earths 1 & 2, was Barry's mother. Maybe Jay Garrick on Earth 3 doesn't have kids, or had kids with a different woman. Besides, Henry Allen said a few episodes earlier that his mother's maiden name was Garrick. Maybe on Earth 3, Henry's parents had him but never married, and so he kept his mother's last name (and they called him Jay instead of Henry).

They're parallel universes. Small changes throughout the years result in completely different circumstances. Nearly everyone on Earth 1 had a lookalike doppleganger on Earth 2, but that doesn't mean everyone on every Earth (3-infinity) has a lookalike doppleganger.

In the Supergirl/Flash crossover

when Barry went to Supergirl's universe by accident, he discovered there was a Star Labs, but that Earth didn't have a Cisco, Caitlyn or Wells at all, so he couldn't use them to help him.

squonk

Penn wrote: »

There might not be a Barry on Earth 3. Maybe Jay Garrick was off saving someone and never met the woman who, on Earths 1 & 2, was Barry's mother. Maybe Jay Garrick on Earth 3 doesn't have kids, or had kids with a different woman. Besides, Henry Allen said a few episodes earlier that his mother's maiden name was Garrick. Maybe on Earth 3, Henry's parents had him but never married, and so he kept his mother's last name (and they called him Jay instead of Henry).

They're parallel universes. Small changes throughout the years result in completely different circumstances. Nearly everyone on Earth 1 had a lookalike doppleganger on Earth 2, but that doesn't mean everyone on every Earth (3-infinity) has a lookalike doppleganger.

In the Supergirl/Flash crossover

when Barry went to Supergirl's universe by accident, he discovered there was a Star Labs, but that Earth didn't have a Cisco, Caitlyn or Wells at all, so he couldn't use them to help him.

Or, more plausibly, the crossover budget didn't extend to hiring the actors who play Wells, Caitlyn & Cisco as well as Barry

Lithium93_

THE FLASH CASTING MAJOR RECURRING CHARACTER FOR SEASON 3

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-flash-casting-major-recurring-character-for-season-3

pixelburp

Still a bit sore after that finale; felt like such a cheap universe reset, combined with a bone-headed decision from the shows lead character

iano.p

pixelburp wrote:

Still a bit sore after that finale; felt like such a cheap universe reset, combined with a bone-headed decision from the shows lead character

Would agree 100% with this the season was good but ended very poorly I feel.

martingriff

iano.p wrote: »

pixelburp wrote:

Still a bit sore after that finale; felt like such a cheap universe reset, combined with a bone-headed decision from the shows lead character

Would agree 100% with this the season was good but ended very poorly I feel.

While comic book fans were yes. Its not going to be a full reset. When Barry fixes what he had done there will be minor ripple like what happened to the pipe piper in the episode he went back in time to go quicker. Will take a number of episodes. Did not feel sore by it. You do know his bonheaded decision was due been insane with grief

martingriff

martingriff wrote: »

You do know his bonheaded decision was due been insane with grief

Mr. Freeze is the same and is a villain. It's good to show the heroes as human though but part of that is that his actions, while human, are not justifiable

pixelburp

martingriff wrote: »

While comic book fans were yes. Its not going to be a full reset. When Barry fixes what he had done there will be minor ripple like what happened to the pipe piper in the episode he went back in time to go quicker. Will take a number of episodes. Did not feel sore by it. You do know his bonheaded decision was due been insane with grief

Grief's all very well, but we spent about 2 seasons watching Barry learn the consequences of messing with either the timeline or parallel universes. Heck it was basically season 1's finale. These notions were very front & centre in the show, plus, the emotional impact of the loss is somewhat offset by Papa Allen skipping town the moment he got out of jail. Barry's actions might have been rash through contrived emotion, but they were stupid given the lessons he seemed to have learned up to that point.

Kimbot

pixelburp wrote: »

Grief's all very well, but we spent about 2 seasons watching Barry learn the consequences of messing with either the timeline or parallel universes. Heck it was basically season 1's finale. These notions were very front & centre in the show, plus, the emotional impact of the loss is somewhat offset by Papa Allen skipping town the moment he got out of jail. Barry's actions might have been rash through contrived emotion, but they were stupid given the lessons he seemed to have learned up to that point.

But its serves to show a point, that no matter who the person is they are not perfect and can and will mess up

Penn

pixelburp wrote: »

Grief's all very well, but we spent about 2 seasons watching Barry learn the consequences of messing with either the timeline or parallel universes. Heck it was basically season 1's finale. These notions were very front & centre in the show, plus, the emotional impact of the loss is somewhat offset by Papa Allen skipping town the moment he got out of jail. Barry's actions might have been rash through contrived emotion, but they were stupid given the lessons he seemed to have learned up to that point.

I kinda disagree. Between what happened in the Season 1 finale, and then what happened when he was stuck in the Speedforce, he came to fully accept his mother's death.

Then his father was killed. Then, he had to allow a version of himself to sacrifice himself in order to stop Zoom. It was also his fault that the Earth-2 version of Joe died.

It broke him. The lessons he learned up to that point became irrelevant because by that point, he felt he had sacrificed so much in his life, both directly and indirectly, that he felt he was owed his life back. It wasn't a rational choice, it was one made purely out of grief. Such a choice won't be based on logic, it'll be based on emotion. And in that moment, he became selfish, and even somewhat arrogant, which given the arrogance he was displaying after he came out of the Speedforce isn't that out of character.

I had no issue with Barry's choice. Possibly could have been done a bit better to add more weight to his decision, but I didn't think it was that big a leap in terms of character/story.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

I kinda disagree. Between what happened in the Season 1 finale, and then what happened when he was stuck in the Speedforce, he came to fully accept his mother's death.

Then his father was killed. Then, he had to allow a version of himself to sacrifice himself in order to stop Zoom. It was also his fault that the Earth-2 version of Joe died.

It broke him. The lessons he learned up to that point became irrelevant because by that point, he felt he had sacrificed so much in his life, both directly and indirectly, that he felt he was owed his life back. It wasn't a rational choice, it was one made purely out of grief. Such a choice won't be based on logic, it'll be based on emotion. And in that moment, he became selfish, and even somewhat arrogant, which given the arrogance he was displaying after he came out of the Speedforce isn't that out of character.

I had no issue with Barry's choice. Possibly could have been done a bit better to add more weight to his decision, but I didn't think it was that big a leap in terms of character/story.

So he's a villain and should be under the particle accelerator?
We don't get the back story of most of the antagonist metas, they do bad and are locked up, those we do get are often sympathetic but are still locked up.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

So he's a villain and should be under the particle accelerator?

How is he a villain? He went back in time to save his mother. Didn't kill anyone (not even Reverse-Flash). And he has no idea how it will actually affect the timeline.

He also did it after having saved, not only Earth, but every other universe (of which they say there's an infinite number of).

He does something a bit selfish after that (again, bearing in mind he has no idea what the consequences will be) and gets labelled a villain?

Penn

Penn wrote: »

How is he a villain? He went back in time to save his mother. Didn't kill anyone (not even Reverse-Flash). And he has no idea how it will actually affect the timeline.

He also did it after having saved, not only Earth, but every other universe (of which they say there's an infinite number of).

He does something a bit selfish after that (again, bearing in mind he has no idea what the consequences will be) and gets labelled a villain?

He has changed the past, he knows how it can change entire lives (or even existence of a life).

He caused the fractures, let's not forget. He's cleaned up his own mess.

Doing something which can effect millions of people with no regard as to the consequences is not heroic.
Human? Yes but not heroic.

It leads to a phenomenal story arc byt let's swap it around a bit.
...
Cisco is in the HQ and vibes. A new meta has arrived and is starting to form a temporal rift allowing him to go back in time. His plan? Change his personal history for the better but Cisco is worried about the timeline.
...

What would team Flash do?
Assist the meta
OR
Give it their all to stop him and lock him away

Greyjoy

Penn wrote: »

He went back in time to save his mother. Didn't kill anyone (not even Reverse-Flash). And he has no idea how it will actually affect the timeline.

It's the 'no idea how it will affect the timeline' part that's the problem. How many people has he saved as the Flash? people who would have otherwise died. Barry has no idea how this change will impact on everyone, including himself but he's putting his desires ahead of the lives of the entire city.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

He has changed the past, he knows how it can change entire lives (or even existence of a life).

He caused the fractures, let's not forget. He's cleaned up his own mess.

Doing something which can effect millions of people with no regard as to the consequences is not heroic.
Human? Yes but not heroic.

It leads to a phenomenal story arc byt let's swap it around a bit.
...
Cisco is in the HQ and vibes. A new meta has arrived and is starting to form a temporal rift allowing him to go back in time. His plan? Change his personal history for the better but Cisco is worried about the timeline.
...

What would team Flash do?
Assist the meta
OR
Give it their all to stop him and lock him away

The same could be said of half the stuff they've done in the show, especially when it comes to anything to do with time travel or alternate universes. At the end of last season he was fully prepared to save his mother. This time, he did. The causes were different but no-one considered him a villain for what he was going to do last season. They could have just left Thawne to rot in the particle accelerator. Same with when he went back in time both last season (the first time he time travelled) and this season (when he went back to learn how to get faster from Thawne). Each time, he didn't know the potential cause of what might happen.

Besides which, it's quite probable he thinks the future will be okay, as it'll be the one Thawne originally came from. From Thawne's timeline, Wells accidentally caused the particle accelerator which gave Barry his powers. Thawne went back in time to kill Barry as a kid, failed, so killed his mother instead (which hadn't happened at that time from Thawne's timeline). Then he was stuck and couldn't travel back, so he caused the particle accelerator earlier than it should have happened and created the timeline we know now (along with all the metahumans). It's possible Barry believes by saving his mother, the timeline will go back to being as it was from Thawne's perspective where he gets his powers from the real Wells a few years later and still becomes a hero, but his mother (and I'm guessing his father) are still alive.

I just really don't think it's fair to label him a villain or similar. He doesn't see the consequences of his actions or feels he'll just deal with whatever happens.

Greyjoy wrote: »

It's the 'no idea how it will affect the timeline' part that's the problem. How many people has he saved as the Flash? people who would have otherwise died. Barry has no idea how this change will impact on everyone, including himself but he's putting his desires ahead of the lives of the entire city.

Agree completely, but that's what I'm saying, he's not thinking about it rationally, he's acting on grief-fuelled emotion. He doesn't see how it might affect everyone. He's just lost and sacrificed so much that he feels he's owed this.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

The same could be said of half the stuff they've done in the show, especially when it comes to anything to do with time travel or alternate universes. At the end of last season he was fully prepared to save his mother. This time, he did. The causes were different but no-one considered him a villain for what he was going to do last season. They could have just left Thawne to rot in the particle accelerator. Same with when he went back in time both last season (the first time he time travelled) and this season (when he went back to learn how to get faster from Thawne). Each time, he didn't know the potential cause of what might happen.

Besides which, it's quite probable he thinks the future will be okay, as it'll be the one Thawne originally came from. From Thawne's timeline, Wells accidentally caused the particle accelerator which gave Barry his powers. Thawne went back in time to kill Barry as a kid, failed, so killed his mother instead (which hadn't happened at that time from Thawne's timeline). Then he was stuck and couldn't travel back, so he caused the particle accelerator earlier than it should have happened and created the timeline we know now (along with all the metahumans). It's possible Barry believes by saving his mother, the timeline will go back to being as it was from Thawne's perspective where he gets his powers from the real Wells a few years later and still becomes a hero, but his mother (and I'm guessing his father) are still alive.

I just really don't think it's fair to label him a villain or similar. He doesn't see the consequences of his actions or feels he'll just deal with whatever happens.



Agree completely, but that's what I'm saying, he's not thinking about it rationally, he's acting on grief-fuelled emotion. He doesn't see how it might affect everyone. He's just lost and sacrificed so much that he feels he's owed this.

And they have locked emotional people up for less.
Criminally insane.

He is owed it, screw everyone who has been born since then?
Ignorance is not a defence.

spektorfive

In the season 1 finale the other Flash point at Barry and tells him not to do it. So he knows if another version of himself told him not to do it there must be some sort of negative reaction to saving his mother.

martingriff

pixelburp wrote: »

Grief's all very well, but we spent about 2 seasons watching Barry learn the consequences of messing with either the timeline or parallel universes. Heck it was basically season 1's finale. These notions were very front & centre in the show, plus, the emotional impact of the loss is somewhat offset by Papa Allen skipping town the moment he got out of jail. Barry's actions might have been rash through contrived emotion, but they were stupid given the lessons he seemed to have learned up to that point.

Noy saying they were not stupid what I am saying is these are the action of not a rational man. A person who was just getting over his mothers death to have his father killed in front of him when he was powerless to do anything.