The Flash [** Spoilers ** ==> US pace]

martingriff

Deleted User wrote: »

He has changed the past, he knows how it can change entire lives (or even existence of a life).

He caused the fractures, let's not forget. He's cleaned up his own mess.

Doing something which can effect millions of people with no regard as to the consequences is not heroic.
Human? Yes but not heroic.

It leads to a phenomenal story arc byt let's swap it around a bit.
...
Cisco is in the HQ and vibes. A new meta has arrived and is starting to form a temporal rift allowing him to go back in time. His plan? Change his personal history for the better but Cisco is worried about the timeline.
...

What would team Flash do?
Assist the meta
OR
Give it their all to stop him and lock him away

But that is the point he may be a hero but HE IS HUMAN and all the emotions that come with that. He is drowning in grief with all that has happened. Just because he The Flash should mean he should be immune to that???????????????

Penn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And they have locked emotional people up for less.
Criminally insane.

He is owed it, screw everyone who has been born since then?
Ignorance is not a defence.

If he stops RF from becoming Wells and creating the particle accelerator earlier, then there's no meta humans to protect people from yet, which means there's no need for The Flash yet either.

Again, we know it's likely to cause major issues considering the link to the story from the comics and the fact it was the season finale cliffhanger, but there's no way Barry could possibly know if things are going to be worse, or even dare I say, if it would have meant things would have been better if the particle accelerator never happened (meaning no meta humans at all on earth 1).

He cannot possible know the effect without creating the cause, and his decision to cause it is based on emotion and grief, not logic.

Nervous Wreck

To suggest that changing the past makes Barry a villain is one of the stupidest things I've read on this thread.

Would team Flash allow a grief ridden, angry and unstable Meta, do what Barry is doing?

They have, without trial, locked up people for much less. Barry is messing with the lives of potentially millions of people and he does not care.
There have been metas in the same stage of mind, in this very show, treated like villains.

We don't get their backstory but just accept that they're evil.

I'm not honestly saying that he's the villain just wondering why people are giving the chara ter a pass, when the cast characters have repeatedly stopped people doing much less.

It also still highlights the inherent badness of them locking up disturbed metas, without trial or understanding their situation

don ramo

he may have done it out of grief, just so much catching up on him, so he went back to the start, to the event that set all this in motion, and stopped it from happening, so that he could be happy, and live a normal life with both his parents alive and together,

gonna be interesting when he gets back to the future and we see how hes changed things, with both his parents alive, and i assume metas are still around and he probably still has his powers but isnt the flash, we should also have the original wells along with cisco and caitlin probably taking care of the metas by themselves, and theyll probably be hunting barry once he gets there, cause hes just another meta to them,

its a decent reset theyve done, but they can only play this card so many times before it gets boring, and what theyve done kicks up a lot of issues, like why future barry stopped last seasons barry from saving his mother, but didnt stop this seasons barry, in fact where was the future flash that was fighting reverse flash when barry stopped him,

spektorfive

I really don't think there any reset going to happen. Things will be back to normal by esp 2 I assume.

martingriff

martingriff wrote: »

But that is the point he may be a hero but HE IS HUMAN and all the emotions that come with that. He is drowning in grief with all that has happened. Just because he The Flash should mean he should be immune to that???????????????

So he gets a pass when risking the lives of millions of people, from even existing?

RobbingBandit

Won't make him a villain but can/probably will change many many things not just here but for Arrow and even beyond that. If Barry saves his mother he will never grow up with Iris and Joe, his dad won't go to jail. He will grow up with a normal life possibly changing his career path from CSI forensics and even Science as a whole. What will happen to Thawne will he still take over Harrison Wells and create the Super Collider or will Barry even be the Flash in the first place.

The next season will be based on Flash Point comic arc which completely changed the DC universe going as far as

Batman dies as a child his dad becomes Batman and his mom becomes the Joker, just as an example of how much potential change could happen.

martingriff

Deleted User wrote: »

So he gets a pass when risking the lives of millions of people, from even existing?

Who says he gets a pass. Most or on here arguing with those who say it made no sense that Barry would do what he did as he is a hero (as if that make him immune or something to grief or idiotic decisions)

There are many ways he will not get a pass for 1 we do not know how things turned out in the original timeline all Barry know is his parents would be alive (or at least thats whats he things. He also things that everyone he loves will have better and happier lives as there will be no metahumans. His parents will be alive Ronnie will be alive as will the real Harrisons Wells.

It could turn out like the comics and the earth will all be gone to hell.

He will surely get a bollicking from however he turns to to help him (Wells, Green Arrow etc). So no he will not get a pass in the series.

Mr E

Hey folks, please don't post anything about Flashpoint without using spoiler tags. We don't know how much they will use (if any), but anything from the comic is a potential spoiler for the TV show.

RobbingBandit

Sorry

Greyjoy

Penn wrote: »

If he stops RF from becoming Wells and creating the particle accelerator earlier, then there's no meta humans to protect people from yet, which means there's no need for The Flash yet either.

Surely he's saved countless people from regular criminals / catastrophes as well in his career as the Flash?

spektorfive

The particle accelerator was always going to happen and create the Flash. Real wells was building up to it and created the Flash. That's what RF said when he jumped into real wells body he just needed it to happen sooner.

Penn

Greyjoy wrote: »

Surely he's saved countless people from regular criminals / catastrophes as well in his career as the Flash?

But then how far do you go? He's also surely not saved countless people from regular incidents while he's been living his non-Flash life, but no-one would consider him a villain for not devoting all his time to saving people as The Flash.

The Flash is needed to fight the enemies that the cops can't; the meta-humans. If Barry going back in time to save his mother means the particle accelerator doesn't happen until years later, then there's no meta-humans created that The Flash won't be around to save people from.

And what about the changes to the lives of everyone in that timestream?
Joe, Iris, Sisco, Firestorm, Legends, Olly, Felicity ef al

And they're just the people we know. All their lives are now different (they could be dead FFS for all Barry cared)

Flashpoint of course, where Barry learns his lesson.

Greyjoy

Penn wrote: »

If Barry going back in time to save his mother means the particle accelerator doesn't happen until years later, then there's no meta-humans created that The Flash won't be around to save people from.

It also means that the people he saved from ordinary criminals or accidents are now dead because he won't become the Flash until years later.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

And what about the changes to the lives of everyone in that timestream?
Joe, Iris, Sisco, Firestorm, Legends, Olly, Felicity ef al

And they're just the people we know. All their lives are now different (they could be dead FFS for all Barry cared)

Flashpoint of course, where Barry learns his lesson.

Greyjoy wrote: »

It also means that the people he saved from ordinary criminals or accidents are now dead because he won't become the Flash until years later.

Or, everything might be better. The whole world could be better. The police wouldn't be dealing with cases relating to meta-humans (giving them more time to save normal people). And all Barry's friends and family could be safe since Barry not becoming The Flash didn't make them targets for danger.

We obviously know that won't be the case, because it's a cliffhanger on a TV show. But Barry, not acting based on logic but rather on emotion having saved the entire multiverse and lost both of his parents, likely feels there'll be minor changes and he'll deal with any negative consequences as best he can. Same way he has done every other time he's gone back in time, or taken a risk to stop an enemy (giving Zoom his speed for example, or setting off a smaller particle accelerator blast to give him back his powers).

Christ you'd swear he decided to knowingly help Zoom destroy every other universe to bring his mother back or something.

Would Team Flash, in normal circumstances, capture and detain a random meta attempting the same?

Why are you stuck on his time as Flash, he is changing decades of history. People will blink out of existence FS

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Would Team Flash, in normal circumstances, capture and detain a random meta attempting the same?

They locked up Barry for agreeing to race Zoom. They were wrong. Barry had a plan and saved the day.

If Barry had told them he was planning on going back and trying to save his mother again, they would have locked him up and tried to talk him out of it. That's why he didn't tell them.

We as the audience are not meant to accept it as a good choice on Barry's part. We're supposed to accept the reasoning behind his choice and what led him to it. Why he can't see the damage it might cause and why he's being selfish. Him racing Zoom was a huge risk even with his plan, but he was blinded by revenge. He wanted to beat Zoom more for what Zoom did to him than what Zoom was doing to the Multiverse.

Now, he's blinded by grief. He wants to take something back from the universe that has taken so much from him, and he's blinded to the damage it may cause.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

They locked up Barry for agreeing to race Zoom. They were wrong. Barry had a plan and saved the day.

If Barry had told them he was planning on going back and trying to save his mother again, they would have locked him up and tried to talk him out of it. That's why he didn't tell them.

We as the audience are not meant to accept it as a good choice on Barry's part. We're supposed to accept the reasoning behind his choice and what led him to it. Why he can't see the damage it might cause and why he's being selfish. Him racing Zoom was a huge risk even with his plan, but he was blinded by revenge. He wanted to beat Zoom more for what Zoom did to him than what Zoom was doing to the Multiverse.

Now, he's blinded by grief. He wants to take something back from the universe that has taken so much from him, and he's blinded to the damage it may cause.

And we haven't seen villains with the same motivation before?

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

And we haven't seen villains with the same motivation before?

Name one who hasn't knowingly committed numerous crimes to achieve their goals.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Name one who hasn't knowingly committed numerous crimes to achieve their goals.

That's exactly the point. How is Barry changing the time line and unilaterally altering the history of millions not a crime??
FFS there was, in theory, an entire Timemaster core to arrest such people

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

That's exactly the point. How is Barry changing the time line and unilaterally altering the history of millions not a crime??
FFS there was, in theory, an entire Timemaster core to arrest such people

We know he's going to end up altering the history of millions, but he doesn't know that. That's the point.

Again, technically The Flash already takes place in a timeline which has been changed because the Reverse Flash went back in time, killed Barry's mother, then created the particle accelerator incident years before it was actually supposed to happen.

Future Flash also went back in time to stop him killing Barry, but not stop him from killing his mother. That also enabled the timeline to be changed.

Barry cannot possibly know that his actions will affect the lives of millions, or even that it won't be a positive effect. You're imbuing his actions with your knowledge of it being a cliffhanger on a TV show and the comics arc etc.

Edit: Also, my point about naming a villain who hadn't committed crimes to achieve their goal (regardless of the reason of their goal) was to show that the metas they lock under Star Labs is because of the crimes they commit and people they hurt. Barry hasn't hurt anyone or committed such crimes.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

We know he's going to end up altering the history of millions, but he doesn't know that. That's the point.

Again, technically The Flash already takes place in a timeline which has been changed because the Reverse Flash went back in time, killed Barry's mother, then created the particle accelerator incident years before it was actually supposed to happen.

Future Flash also went back in time to stop him killing Barry, but not stop him from killing his mother. That also enabled the timeline to be changed.

Barry cannot possibly know that his actions will affect the lives of millions, or even that it won't be a positive effect. You're imbuing his actions with your knowledge of it being a cliffhanger on a TV show and the comics arc etc.

Ignorance is no defence. He's a smart lad, grief not withstanding, he knows that time travel isn't without massive consequences. He has decided to say "f#ck it, I don't care"

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Ignorance is no defence. He's a smart lad, grief not withstanding, he knows that time travel isn't without massive consequences. He has decided to say "f#ck it, I don't care"

Every time he has time travelled, accidentally or on purpose:
Season 1: Saved Cisco's life (inadvertantly), Joe and most of Central City by preventing the tsunami
Season 1: In the finale, technically no change as his future self stopped him from changing anything
Season 2: Crossover episode with Arrow, he prevented the death of Green Arrow and others.
Season 2: Went back in time to Thawne/Wells, only change was now has an ally in Pied Piper rather than an enemy
Season 2: Finale, created a time remnant of himself to help save the multiverse.

Every time he has gone back in time, either nothing has happened or positive things have happened.

martingriff

To everyone who is on Barry's case first of all do not forget its a tv show some on here make it sound like its real life. Have any of ye ever made a selfish decision to make your life easier and not thought of how it impacts others ye all seem to think out everything to the nth degree how do ye get anything done. Have any of ye ever say "f#ck it, I don't care"

FunLover18

Penn wrote:

We know he's going to end up altering the history of millions, but he doesn't know that. That's the point.

Barry cannot possibly know that his actions will affect the lives of millions, or even that it won't be a positive effect. You're imbuing his actions with your knowledge of it being a cliffhanger on a TV show and the comics arc etc.

Of course he does, this isn't his first time-travel rodeo. Why does he say sorry to Iris if he doesn't know it will affect millions, he's seen directly how reverse Flash's time travelling has affected the world let alone just himself. It doesn't matter whether it's a positive or negative effect, Barry has no right to make that call and is doing so out of purely selfish desire. In regard to motivation and mind set there is very little difference between what Barry did and what Thawn did.

Penn

FunLover18 wrote: »

Of course he does, this isn't his first time-travel rodeo. Why does he say sorry to Iris if he doesn't know it will affect millions, he's seen directly how reverse Flash's time travelling has affected the world let alone just himself. It doesn't matter whether it's a positive or negative effect, Barry has no right to make that call and is doing so out of purely selfish desire. In regard to motivation and mind set there is very little difference between what Barry did and what Thawn did.

He says sorry to Iris because they're finally at a place where they can nearly be together, where she believes after he processes his grief, they will be together.

But he abandons that, and therefore her, by going back to the past.

I agree he's doing it out of selfish desire, I've never denied that. He's being selfish after having just come to terms with his mother's death, he loses his father and has to sacrifice a version of himself to save the multiverse. Now, he's being selfish. He feels like he's owed this. That he's sacrificed so much that he wants something back.

But that's the difference between what he did and what Thawne did. Thawne acted out of hate. Barry, who lost his mother as a child and already gave up one chance to save her, now wants to save her again. He's acting out of love and grief.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

He says sorry to Iris because they're finally at a place where they can nearly be together, where she believes after he processes his grief, they will be together.

But he abandons that, and therefore her, by going back to the past.

I agree he's doing it out of selfish desire, I've never denied that. He's being selfish after having just come to terms with his mother's death, he loses his father and has to sacrifice a version of himself to save the multiverse. Now, he's being selfish. He feels like he's owed this. That he's sacrificed so much that he wants something back.

But that's the difference between what he did and what Thawne did. Thawne acted out of hate. Barry, who lost his mother as a child and already gave up one chance to save her, now wants to save her again. He's acting out of love and grief.

So wiping out an entire times line is cool if done out of grief and love?

Penn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So wiping out an entire times line is cool if done out of grief and love?

No! Nobody is saying Barry made the right choice! We know he made the wrong choice, but he doesn't because he's not acting rationally. And it's not enough to label him a villain or claim he should be locked up under Star Labs simply because he's making a mistake based on grief rather than criminal intent. He has saved the city, the world and the goddamn multiverse, and now he's trying to save his mother because he doesn't know the consequences. The world might be better off. He doesnt know. We know because it's a cliffhanger in a TV show based off a comic arc, but he doesn't know, and he's acting out of selfish reasons. Not criminal reasons, but selfish based on grief of losing his father. He's a meta human, but he's still human.

I say we end this here because we're going round in circles. Don't know how to explain this point any more clearly.