The Flash [** Spoilers ** ==> US pace]

All I know is that Barry 2024 is very blasé about a new Flashpoint

D'Agger

Deleted User wrote: »

All I know is that Barry 2024 is very blasé about a new Flashpoint

Yeah, I left him off with the 'blind with pain' excuse but in the back of my mind was thinking - seriously, you're allowing a different past to be created to save a loved one again....after the last time...wut

Ben Gadot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So. Many. Questions.

Emo barry was hilarious.
If they broke up almost immediately after the death of Iris - who made his new suit?
If Killer Frost knows who Savitar is, and Savitar was defeated why doesn't anyone else know.
If no one else knows who Savitar was, why does Frost assume past Barry will find out (and be so suprised).
If a speedforce trap was created - it was created, why couldn't barry just get a version of the one that has already been created?

I don't think they broke up immediately given Barry said they only figured out with the assistance of someone else how to beat Savitar in 2020 or 2021.

Ben Gadot

Ben Gadot wrote: »

I don't think they broke up immediately given Barry said they only figured out with the assistance of someone else how to beat Savitar in 2020 or 2021.

He went off on a crusade alone, from what he said.

JamboMac

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So. Many. Questions.

Emo barry was hilarious.
If they broke up almost immediately after the death of Iris - who made his new suit?
If Killer Frost knows who Savitar is, and Savitar was defeated why doesn't anyone else know.
If no one else knows who Savitar was, why does Frost assume past Barry will find out (and be so suprised).
If a speedforce trap was created - it was created, why couldn't barry just get a version of the one that has already been created?

All of this and why didn't anybody in the future expect Barry and not even sisco was certain he told them he was going to the future so the future people should have known. This show and plot holes, absolutely nothing matches up. Couldn't the future flash who defeats savitar go back to 2017 and defeat him then.

Penn

D'Agger wrote: »

Yeah, I left him off with the 'blind with pain' excuse but in the back of my mind was thinking - seriously, you're allowing a different past to be created to save a loved one again....after the last time...wut

I think there's a slight difference here though. With Flashpoint, Barry went back to the past himself, changed the past, and therefore changed the present from his own perspective. With this, 2024-Barry is giving 2017-Barry information that 2017-Barry can use in his own present (2017).

It's not changing the past to change the present like Flashpoint, it's altering the course of the future from the present. With Flashpoint, Barry created a whole new reality from his own perspective. This way, he's not because the future hasn't happened to him yet. He's just using knowledge from the future to change his present.

Penn

JamboMac wrote: »

All of this and why didn't anybody in the future expect Barry and not even sisco was certain he told them he was going to the future so the future people should have known. This show and plot holes, absolutely nothing matches up.

Because the version of Barry in the future never travelled to the future. Think of it this way, Eobard Thawne was erased from existence when Eddie killed himself. But if Eobard was erased from existence, he never would have travelled back in time causing Eddie to kill himself. Which means Eddie would have lived, which means Eobard wouldn't have been erased from existence etc. It's a paradox. That's what happens with time travel. Sometimes an alternate future has to exist to allow something to change in the past which sets forward a different future. Likewise here, Barry-2024 never travelled to the future from his 2017. It was only when Abra Kadabra travelled back from an even further future that gave 2017-Barry the idea to go into the future.

JamboMac wrote: »

Couldn't the future flash who defeats savitar go back to 2017 and defeat him then.

It depends on how powerful Savitar is. We don't know the limits of his abilities to know if he somehow stopped Future Flash from doing so.

JamboMac

Penn wrote: »

Because the version of Barry in the future never travelled to the future. Think of it this way, Eobard Thawne was erased from existence when Eddie killed himself. But if Eobard was erased from existence, he never would have travelled back in time causing Eddie to kill himself. Which means Eddie would have lived, which means Eobard wouldn't have been erased from existence etc. It's a paradox. That's what happens with time travel. Sometimes an alternate future has to exist to allow something to change in the past which sets forward a different future. Likewise here, Barry-2024 never travelled to the future from his 2017. It was only when Abra Kadabra travelled back from an even further future that gave 2017-Barry the idea to go into the future.

Barry going forward from 2017 to 2024 isn't like flashpoint, these 2 Barry's are from the new alternate timeline Barry created after flashpoint. So the Barry from 2024 would have been the same Barry from 2017 to travel forward in time.

So everything which happened between 2017-2024 is going to happen to current Barry.

Does everybody have an idea who savitar is?

Penn

Penn wrote: »

I think there's a slight difference here though. With Flashpoint, Barry went back to the past himself, changed the past, and therefore changed the present from his own perspective. With this, 2024-Barry is giving 2017-Barry information that 2017-Barry can use in his own present (2017).

It's not changing the past to change the present like Flashpoint, it's altering the course of the future from the present. With Flashpoint, Barry created a whole new reality from his own perspective. This way, he's not because the future hasn't happened to him yet. He's just using knowledge from the future to change his present.

Future Barry has sent information, from his recent time, back to events before that time.
It's the same paradox, from the perspective of Barry 2024. The Flashpoint would be in 2024

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

Future Barry has sent information, from his recent time, back to events before that time.
It's the same paradox, from the perspective of Barry 2024. The Flashpoint would be in 2024

Yep - that was another thing I couldn't get my headaround. Its just another flashpoint from a different perspective!

Also, future Barry sent a message to the LoL telling them he couldn't be trusted (in the crossover episode) - is that Savitar beating Barry or some other Barry (original ReverseFlash/Flash timeline)? so confusing.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Future Barry has sent information, from his recent time, back to events before that time.
It's the same paradox, from the perspective of Barry 2024. The Flashpoint would be in 2024

I disagree.

Barry-2016 went back into the past himself and changed something. That caused Flashpoint. The change in the timeline is predicated on Barry-2016's actions.

Barry-2024 is only giving Barry-2017 information. However, Barry-2017 could have found out the information some other way, or found out something different. Hell, the entire reason he's trying to get the info is because he already travelled to the future and found out Iris was going to die. The change in the timeline isn't predicated on Barry-2024's actions, because Barry-2024 isn't changing the timeline from his perspective.

Barry-2017 is going to use his knowledge of the future to change what happened to the 2024 future he just visited, but he's not changing his own timeline from his perspective because that future hasn't actually happened to him yet. Barry-2017 isn't changing a timeline which has already happened to him like with Flashpoint.

It's difficult to explain, but to me it makes sense anyway. Flashpoint was about changing the past in order to change the present. This is about using knowledge of the future to try and prevent it from happening, but from within his present.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

I disagree.

Barry-2016 went back into the past himself and changed something. That caused Flashpoint. The change in the timeline is predicated on Barry-2016's actions.

Barry-2024 is only giving Barry-2017 information. However, Barry-2017 could have found out the information some other way, or found out something different. Hell, the entire reason he's trying to get the info is because he already travelled to the future and found out Iris was going to die. The change in the timeline isn't predicated on Barry-2024's actions, because Barry-2024 isn't changing the timeline from his perspective.

Barry-2017 is going to use his knowledge of the future to change what happened to the 2024 future he just visited, but he's not changing his own timeline from his perspective because that future hasn't actually happened to him yet. Barry-2017 isn't changing a timeline which has already happened to him like with Flashpoint.

It's difficult to explain, but to me it makes sense anyway. Flashpoint was about changing the past in order to change the present. This is about using knowledge of the future to try and prevent it from happening, but from within his present.

Barry 2024 had to wait until 2020 to get info. He has directly given a past version of himself information that is new to 2017.
The only wat to avoid this paradox is if no one actually reads it (ignoring all normal time travel rules like new matter etc)

He has sent something back with a direct impact on his own past.

Barry 2024 has done one of two things (based on Flash and Legends happenings)
1. Blinked his timeline out of existence
2. Created a Flashpoint in 2024 (more likely in Flash time travel stories)

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Barry 2024 had to wait until 2020 to get info. He has directly given a past version of himself information that is new to 2017.
The only wat to avoid this paradox is if no one actually reads it (ignoring all normal time travel rules like new matter etc)

He has sent something back with a direct impact on his own past.

Barry 2024 has done one of two things (based on Flash and Legends happenings)
1. Blinked his timeline out of existence
2. Created a Flashpoint in 2024 (more likely in Flash time travel stories)

But again, in many cases there can be a false version of the future which is required to allow the actual future to happen, such with Eobard Thawne. He was wiped from existence and never existed because Eddie killed himself, but there had to be a version of the future in which he did exist in order for him to travel back in time from and cause the event which resulted in him being wiped from existence.

Likewise, this version of the future may be one which Barry has to travel to in order to get what he needs to stop Savitar and save Iris, but this version of the future has to have existed for Barry to get the info in the first place. So yeah Barry-2024 may be wiping his own version of the timeline out of existence by helping Barry-2017, but like with the future Eobard came from, it may be a version of the future which is only required to make the true future take place.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

But again, in many cases there can be a false version of the future which is required to allow the actual future to happen, such with Eobard Thawne. He was wiped from existence and never existed because Eddie killed himself, but there had to be a version of the future in which he did exist in order for him to travel back in time from and cause the event which resulted in him being wiped from existence.

Likewise, this version of the future may be one which Barry has to travel to in order to get what he needs to stop Savitar and save Iris, but this version of the future has to have existed for Barry to get the info in the first place. So yeah Barry-2024 may be wiping his own version of the timeline out of existence by helping Barry-2017, but like with the future Eobard came from, it may be a version of the future which is only required to make the true future take place.

Then it's a complete paradox, where did that future come from? What past led to it? It's pure hand waving. Either Barry changing his past is Flashpoint or it's not

Lithium93_

Captain Cold

returning in the penultimate episode of The Flash Season 3.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Then it's a complete paradox, where did that future come from? What past led to it?

Agreed but that's always the flaw with Time Travel stories. If Mr.X comes back from the future to change something in order to prevent a terrible future from happening, then the future he came from no longer exists if he succeeds. But if the future he came from didn't exist, he wouldn't have travelled back in time to prevent it from happening, which means the future he came from would have existed which meant he would have travelled back and so on and so on.

It's called the Hitler Paradox. You travel back in time to kill Hitler before he starts WWII. But by killing Hitler and preventing WWII, you've then removed the reason why you would have travelled back in time. Which means you wouldn't have travelled back in time to kill Hitler. But then Hitler does start WWII, so you do travel back and so on and so on.

With Barry-2017 travelling to the future, it's possible that he does save Iris. But because he doesn't know how to, he travels to the future which is a future where he didn't know how to save her. He learns something which means now he can save her, goes back to the present and saves her. But now that future where he didn't save her doesn't exist. But if that future doesn't exist, he couldn't have gotten the info he needed to save her, which means that future did exist.

If instead Barry travelled to a future where he did save Iris because he got the information he needed from that future in the first place, that would lead to a Bootstrap Paradox whereby Barry saved Iris because he got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self etc. It means that the originator of the info never gave any version of Barry the info in the first place, and Barry only got the info because he always got it from his future self who in turn got it from his future self.

Paradoxes are part of time travel stories. Always will be.

Mitch Connor

Penn wrote: »

I disagree.

Barry-2016 went back into the past himself and changed something. That caused Flashpoint. The change in the timeline is predicated on Barry-2016's actions.

Barry-2024 is only giving Barry-2017 information. However, Barry-2017 could have found out the information some other way, or found out something different. Hell, the entire reason he's trying to get the info is because he already travelled to the future and found out Iris was going to die. The change in the timeline isn't predicated on Barry-2024's actions, because Barry-2024 isn't changing the timeline from his perspective.

Barry-2017 is going to use his knowledge of the future to change what happened to the 2024 future he just visited, but he's not changing his own timeline from his perspective because that future hasn't actually happened to him yet. Barry-2017 isn't changing a timeline which has already happened to him like with Flashpoint.

It's difficult to explain, but to me it makes sense anyway. Flashpoint was about changing the past in order to change the present. This is about using knowledge of the future to try and prevent it from happening, but from within his present.

Barry 2024 is almost irrelevant.

The central point is Barry is time traveling to change events in a timeline that he doesn't like. That is the crux of Flashpoint.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Agreed but that's always the flaw with Time Travel stories. If Mr.X comes back from the future to change something in order to prevent a terrible future from happening, then the future he came from no longer exists if he succeeds. But if the future he came from didn't exist, he wouldn't have travelled back in time to prevent it from happening, which means the future he came from would have existed which meant he would have travelled back and so on and so on.

It's called the Hitler Paradox. You travel back in time to kill Hitler before he starts WWII. But by killing Hitler and preventing WWII, you've then removed the reason why you would have travelled back in time. Which means you wouldn't have travelled back in time to kill Hitler. But then Hitler does start WWII, so you do travel back and so on and so on.

With Barry-2017 travelling to the future, it's possible that he does save Iris. But because he doesn't know how to, he travels to the future which is a future where he didn't know how to save her. He learns something which means now he can save her, goes back to the present and saves her. But now that future where he didn't save her doesn't exist. But if that future doesn't exist, he couldn't have gotten the info he needed to save her, which means that future did exist.

If instead Barry travelled to a future where he did save Iris because he got the information he needed from that future in the first place, that would lead to a Bootstrap Paradox whereby Barry saved Iris because he got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self etc. It means that the originator of the info never gave any version of Barry the info in the first place, and Barry only got the info because he always got it from his future self who in turn got it from his future self.

Paradoxes are part of time travel stories. Always will be.

I'm well aware of the paradoxes inherent in Time Travel stories but the show is disregarding its own internal rules and logic

pixelburp

I think intentionally keeping Savitar's identity a secret is wearing a little thin & then some: that's at least the second time the show has hoodwinked the audience with the whole "I know who he is, teehee!" tease, only then to skip off into the credits without telling.

Honestly, I think this is the problem with hanging your 20 episode season around a single antagonist; you can only spin the wheels so many times before it just becomes frustrating and the show has been reduced to winking at its viewers. The Flash needs to change the bloody record for Season 4 as I'm almost at the point of giving up. I love Barry, Cisco & the gang but this feels like a show that has never really grasped how to mould a story after making a splash in Season 1. It's all a bit directionless.

I'm not sure what the show could do to switch up the tedium, but IMO it's worth looking to Agents of SHIELD to see a possible idea on how Flash could move forward & away from these tedious evil-speedster plots. Agents... basically split its 4th season into at least 3 mini-seasons based around pretty distinct & ringfenced arcs; they're all tangentially related to each other yes, but have had independent narratives and character arcs, keeping the season feeling fresh and pacy throughout.

Coming back to The Flash after its short absence ironically feels leaden and a bit hokey in comparison. Oh, we're still angst'ing over Savitar? Marvellous.

(On that note, anyone else presuming Savitar is

Ronnie, given the suddenness Killer Frost lept to his side? It's clearly going to be someone we know & met before, but it feels like only Ronnie could illicit that kind of reaction in Dr. Snow.

)

Penn

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Barry 2024 is almost irrelevant.

The central point is Barry is time traveling to change events in a timeline that he doesn't like. That is the crux of Flashpoint.

But again, the difference is the point in time in which he's changing it. In Flashpoint, he went back in time and physically interacted with it, then when he returned to the present, reality had changed.

Here, he's acting on information from the future in a way that will change his future. But unlike Flashpoint, reality won't change around him. He's changing something which has not happened to him yet from his point in time. It won't have as big an impact on the timeline because that timeline hasn't yet happened to him. The future he travelled to is merely one possible future.

Yes, Future Barry gave him info which may help him save Iris, but in order to be compared to Flashpoint and have as big an impact on the timeline, Future Barry would have had to have travelled back in time himself, stop Savitar before he killed Iris, then return to his future. Even though he has the power to do that, he clearly didn't in this scenario, most likely because of the damage Flashpoint caused, even though it meant Iris stayed dead.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

But again, the difference is the point in time in which he's changing it. In Flashpoint, he went back in time and physically interacted with it, then when he returned to the present, reality had changed.

Here, he's acting on information from the future in a way that will change his future. But unlike Flashpoint, reality won't change around him. He's changing something which has not happened to him yet from his point in time. It won't have as big an impact on the timeline because that timeline hasn't yet happened to him. The future he travelled to is merely one possible future.

Yes, Future Barry gave him info which may help him save Iris, but in order to be compared to Flashpoint and have as big an impact on the timeline, Future Barry would have had to have travelled back in time himself, stop Savitar before he killed Iris, then return to his future. Even though he has the power to do that, he clearly didn't in this scenario, most likely because of the damage Flashpoint caused, even though it meant Iris stayed dead.

We're not talking about Barry 2017...

Barry 2024 is changing the past to correct the death of a loved one.
Calling it a false future is mega hand wave, especially when Barry 2017 has interacted with it.

The only way to avoid a Flash point in 2024 with that time's team, us no one to access that info on the drive in 2017.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

We're not talking about Barry 2017...

Barry 2024 is changing the past to correct the death of a loved one.
Calling it a false future is mega hand wave, especially when Barry 2017 has interacted with it.

The only way to avoid a Flash point in 2024 with that time's team, us no one to access that info on the drive in 2017.

Barry 2024 isn't changing the past though. If he was, he would have travelled back in time himself to stop Savitar. He's giving Barry 2017 the info he needs to save Iris from his present. It would be no different if Barry 2017 found out the info from some other source in 2024. Barry 2017 is the one who is causing a change in the timeline, but because it's the future it hasn't happened to him yet. Him having knowledge at all about Iris' death is the exact same thing, because the only way he knows Savitar kills Iris is because he travelled to the future. Everything he's done since to try save Iris or change stuff about the future, whether successful or not, was only done because he travelled to the future.

But it doesn't cause a Flashpoint scenario because the future has not happened him yet.

I get your point, I really do. But I think this is a genuinely different scenario to Flashpoint.

JamboMac

Penn wrote: »

Agreed but that's always the flaw with Time Travel stories. If Mr.X comes back from the future to change something in order to prevent a terrible future from happening, then the future he came from no longer exists if he succeeds. But if the future he came from didn't exist, he wouldn't have travelled back in time to prevent it from happening, which means the future he came from would have existed which meant he would have travelled back and so on and so on.

It's called the Hitler Paradox. You travel back in time to kill Hitler before he starts WWII. But by killing Hitler and preventing WWII, you've then removed the reason why you would have travelled back in time. Which means you wouldn't have travelled back in time to kill Hitler. But then Hitler does start WWII, so you do travel back and so on and so on.

With Barry-2017 travelling to the future, it's possible that he does save Iris. But because he doesn't know how to, he travels to the future which is a future where he didn't know how to save her. He learns something which means now he can save her, goes back to the present and saves her. But now that future where he didn't save her doesn't exist. But if that future doesn't exist, he couldn't have gotten the info he needed to save her, which means that future did exist.

If instead Barry travelled to a future where he did save Iris because he got the information he needed from that future in the first place, that would lead to a Bootstrap Paradox whereby Barry saved Iris because he got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self who got the info from his future self etc. It means that the originator of the info never gave any version of Barry the info in the first place, and Barry only got the info because he always got it from his future self who in turn got it from his future self.

Paradoxes are part of time travel stories. Always will be.

But Barry lives outside paradoxes as he remembers things which happened from different timelines. So the hitler paradox doesn't equate to Barry.

Jasper79

(On that note, anyone else presuming Savitar is

Ronnie, given the suddenness Killer Frost lept to his side? It's clearly going to be someone we know & met before, but it feels like only Ronnie could illicit that kind of reaction in Dr. Snow.

)[/QUOTE]

My guess would be

]Wally. My thinking would be because he was catatonic in the future, after fighting savitar after realising it was he or a version of him that killed his sister. Also when Savitar says he can rid killer frost of kaitlyn as Savitar had freed himself of wally .

JamboMac

Jasper79 wrote: »

(On that note, anyone else presuming Savitar is

Ronnie, given the suddenness Killer Frost lept to his side? It's clearly going to be someone we know & met before, but it feels like only Ronnie could illicit that kind of reaction in Dr. Snow.

)

My guess would be

Wally. My thinking would be because he was catatonic in the future, after fighting savitar after realising it was he or a version of him that killed his sister. Also when Savitar says he can rid killer frost of kaitlyn as Savitar had freed himself of wally .

I would go with H.R as their is still something unknown about him. Plus he helped wally become kid flash, so he helps people become themselves.

Penn

JamboMac wrote: »

But Barry lives outside paradoxes as he remembers things which happened from different timelines. So the hitler paradox doesn't equate to Barry.

He remembers things to an extent but it's not foolproof. In Flashpoint, he was beginning to lose his powers and memories because it was too big a change from the real timeline. That's why he needed Reverse Flash to bring him back and fix things.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Barry 2024 isn't changing the past though. If he was, he would have travelled back in time himself to stop Savitar. He's giving Barry 2017 the info he needs to save Iris from his present. It would be no different if Barry 2017 found out the info from some other source in 2024. Barry 2017 is the one who is causing a change in the timeline, but because it's the future it hasn't happened to him yet. Him having knowledge at all about Iris' death is the exact same thing, because the only way he knows Savitar kills Iris is because he travelled to the future. Everything he's done since to try save Iris or change stuff about the future, whether successful or not, was only done because he travelled to the future.

But it doesn't cause a Flashpoint scenario because the future has not happened him yet.

I get your point, I really do. But I think this is a genuinely different scenario to Flashpoint.

Everything is information.

He has sent information (which didn't exist) back, if they read/act on this information it's no different from going back himself.

Is this worth revisiting? I gave up two episodes before the Glee one.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Everything is information.

He has sent information (which didn't exist) back, if they read/act on this information it's no different from going back himself.

Look, we're just clearly not going to agree on this so let's call it quits, yeah?

Lithium93_

At least when this season finishes airing, I'm glad there'll be a change of pace from the whole "evil speedster in disguise befriends the team for x reason" and their going a different route, there's only so many times the "evil speedster" can be used. And The Flash's history is littered with so many great villains who aren't speedsters, someone mentioned Mirror Master as an example.

I'm hoping for Season 4, if

Devoe

is going to be the big bad for next season, he similar to Zoom in the 2nd season assembles a motley crew of Rogues and just makes life miserable for Barry and friends.