2013 All Ireland Hurling Semi Final Dublin V Cork

TouchingVirus

roshje wrote: »

shoulder to shoulder is side on not shoulder to front wish people would see this

No, shoulder-to-shoulder is shoulder-to-shoulder. There isn't a thing in the playing rules or fouls about what direction a runner must take before making shoulder-to-shoulder contact. There doesn't need to be, shoulder's aren't that big, it's pretty clear when a shoulder doesn't meet another one, the worse off tends to collapse in a heap.

I'm not going to rules lawyer this, I've got my opinion on it and it's that the first one was a valid tackle. It wasn't the reason we lost the match, which you seem to miss even though I dedicated over half my post to it

Coincidentally, while looking this up because you made me curious I see that fouls committed under section 5.28 (governing charges) state a caution should only be issued for second offences? Learning something new every day

Yellowblackbird

Deleted User wrote: »

Cork are known as the Rebels meaning they were very Fenian

The term 'rebel county' derives from support of the townsmen of Cork in 1491 for Perkin Warbeck, a pretender to the throne of England during the Wars of the Roses.

Tobyglen

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Just rewatched the game there on The Sunday Game, have to admit it doesn't get any easier

On the controversial points:

O'Dwyer's first yellow isn't a yellow, never in a million years - the direction of the run doesn't change the fact it's shoulder on shoulder. As for it being late, I can't see it being anything but a mark in the book 99% of the times I've seen it happen elsewhere. There was an air of the ref stamping authority on it at the time, sad to see my initial thoughts on it was right. The second yellow is a yellow all day long. What Eddie Brennan said is right; If the fouls were the other way around he wouldn't have been sent off. And that's tough to take.

Rushe's lash out was a red card. Folks will be crying out for consistency, I've done it myself. Hands up, he should have gotten his marching orders regardless of the spectacle that was unfolding or previous decisions. You can of course talk until you're blue in the face about how Rushe wouldn't have done it were Dublin not down to 14 men but it's all conjecture, we'll never know. He did it, he should have walked. Had my team lost after a hit like that I'd have been livid.

Ryan missed a few chances, that goal opportunity in the second half by O'Dwyer saved by Nash should have been buried low and hard. These are the inches you're talking about in a game played at high intensity from two well matched teams. Get them out on the pitch tomorrow and I maintain the result would go either way again but be a close call.

Daly was right in his post match interview, there were periods where I felt the match was being dictated by Cork with Dublin just scrapping for what they could get, mostly in the second half. Dublin were ahead six times in the first half, never by more than a single point. Ahead just once in the second half, a maximum of 2 points before Cork closed the gap and O'Dwyer was sent off.

The thing is, it's not like Dublin stopped having opportunities to win after the sending off. Cork's tactics were wrong, they never really used the extra man to significant advantage. It was still tit for tat at the hour mark. Dublin still fought, Cork still fought. And then Gary Maguire popped up the ball for it to be sniped at 65 minutes and Dublin's head dropped. Suddenly there were calamitous errors across the park, balls going to Cork players with not a Dub in sight, at one stage we ran the sliothár out with two minutes to go all of our own accord - not an ounce of pressure.

It was a spectacle worthy of promoting Hurling throughout the world, I hope the next semi-final is as much of a contest.

Here's to next time, I hope it's our day soon

It was late and it wasn't shoulder on shoulder. It's a simple excuse for some fans but it was a YC card, yes it changed the game but it was the correct call.
Second red was a bottle job by the ref, to suggest whether it would have happened if the first didn't happen is a pointless discussion. The ref made a very poor call.
Dublin will win an AI soon, this team may not make it but the resources have been poured it and it's good for the game.

TouchingVirus

Tobyglen wrote: »

It was late and it wasn't shoulder on shoulder. It's a simple excuse for some fans but it was a YC card, yes it changed the game but it was the correct call.
Second red was a bottle job by the ref, to suggest whether it would have happened if the first didn't happen is a pointless discussion because in the end the ref made a very poor call.

Again, you quote my post and deal with half of it. We'll agree to disagree on O'Dwyer's first; I've stated my stance. It is not my excuse, Dublin have no excuses. It changed the game but it didn't take an opportunity to win away from Dublin. If it did I'd have expected the scoreline to be much different given we were down to 14 for more than 20 minutes. I've not stated the Cork victory was in any way hollow. In the end I feel it was more inexperience that cost us, and Cork's tenacity to close out the game in the final few minutes.

kyote00

Overall, a very close game. Overall thought the ref was fine.

The Cork goal was the real turning point - more so than the sending off. Dublin were still creating scoring chances until then. Dublin had a couple of chances to clear it leading up to it....

I was right behind the Cork goal in 2nd half and think the the O'Dywer shot came of the crossbar (and not Nash). Would need to see a slow motion replay....

roshje

People see what they want to see e.g. moving statues

niallo27

If that's a red card today we are not going to finish any championship games in the future with 30 men. It's just too easy these days to get a red card. It's ruining games.

kyote00

what did you see ?

(Cork backline were statues for long parts of first half ;-))

roshje wrote: »

People see what they want to see e.g. moving statues

The_Kew_Tour

kyote00 wrote: »

The Cork goal was the real turning point -

This.

roshje

kyote00 wrote: »

what did you see ?

(Cork backline were statues for long parts of first half ;-))

yes they were moving around

TouchingVirus

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This.

Absolutely, it killed us. I said as much in my own post; we imploded after it

Tobyglen

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Again, you quote my post and deal with half of it. We'll agree to disagree on O'Dwyer's first; I've stated my stance. It is not my excuse, Dublin have no excuses. It changed the game but it didn't take an opportunity to win away from Dublin. If it did I'd have expected the scoreline to be much different given we were down to 14 for more than 20 minutes. I've not stated the Cork victory was in any way hollow. In the end I feel it was more inexperience that cost us, and Cork's tenacity to close out the game in the final few minutes.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree on that. He was silly in regards the second yellow, he has no excuses for that.

One thing not talked about on here is that the early YC stopped any cynical fouls and it was one of the best flowing games we have witnessed because of this. Players knew the standard and were mindful of poor tackles.

washman3

kyote00 wrote: »

I was right behind the Cork goal in 2nd half and think the the O'Dywer shot came of the crossbar (and not Nash). Would need to see a slow motion replay....

Did the Sunday Game confirm this tonight.?
TBH I thought Nash saved it.
But ROD should have buried it low and hard anyway.
Lesson for other teams to take points unless its a 1 on 1 with Nash.
His reflexes are incredible.
Very tough luck on the Dublin keeper, those type of balls are a nightmare.
Actually Nash made a mistake in the first half and got away with it, no Dublin forward rushing in to capitalise like Horgan did.

TouchingVirus

Tobyglen wrote: »

One thing not talked about on here is that the early YC stopped any cynical fouls and it was one of the best flowing games we have witnessed because of this. Players knew the standard and were mindful of poor tackles.

No arguments about the second at all. I don't think the first yellow affected anything other than what happened in the second half. In my experience it's either going to be one of those games until lads cop on or lose a player. I've never seen a yellow be responsible for an attitude shift across 30 players, it's usually confined to one (the receiver of the card) or two (him and the guy marking him )

As a spectacle though, that match is right up there. It was fantastic to witness it

Inner City Hedgehog

niallo27 wrote: »

If that's a red card today we are not going to finish any championship games in the future with 30 men. It's just too easy these days to get a red card. It's ruining games.

It was too hard to get a red in the Cork-Kilkenny match when at least three other players should have gone.

MrJoeSoap

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Get them out on the pitch tomorrow and I maintain the result would go either way again but be a close call.

Give them a break, will ya?

I agree 100% with your points by the way. Good to see I'm not alone, as Eddie Brennan had the same view about the red card on the Sunday Game.

roshje wrote: »

shoulder to shoulder is side on not shoulder to front wish people would see this

One of the most famous shoulders of the modern era wasn't side-on, yet it is lauded as being one of the greatest hits and greatest points ever scored. Rightly so, too.

The_Kew_Tour

Having seen it again no way was first shoulder a booking.

In saying that im not sure Rushe swipe was in pure frustration either. It was a ugly nasty thing to so. It happens and im sure he not anywhere near dirty happens to best, but was dangerous.

The SG Hurling panel are also excellent.

Hurling in every aspect is so much better than football.

Im glad Dublin have joined the party and hopefully Wexford will be back again with U21 giving them a lift.

Hurling is making a comeback:)

rebel girl 15

As much difference as the red card made on the game, Dublin still fought like tigers until the final five mins. Until the red card, Dublin had the momentum, and Ryan haad just missed a free, which would have left two between the teams, instead Dublin found themselves a man down and level, with Cork getting ahead straight after it. Its on those small margins that games can swing.

It wasn't until the 66th min with Horgan's goal that the lead grew to four points, and really opened, and it wasn't a goal created by Cork, it was opportunist, which is worrying from a Cork perspective.

Dublin have had a super year, despite an edgy start to the year having a replay against Wexford in the first round of the championship. I'd say if you asked any Dublin supporter after that first game v Wexford that they would reach an AI semi final through the front door, collecting the Leinster championship title along the way, they would have taken it. Its not going to balm the disappointment that will be felt tonight, and the what if it stayed with 15 men.

Superb game of hurling, best I've seen in a long time - two teams throwing the kitchen sink at it with huge intensity and open play, high scoring game with fantastic skill from both sides. We haven't seen the end of that Dublin team yet!

rebel girl 15

washman3 wrote: »

Did the Sunday Game confirm this tonight.?
TBH I thought Nash saved it.
But ROD should have buried it low and hard anyway.
Lesson for other teams to take points unless its a 1 on 1 with Nash.
His reflexes are incredible.
Very tough luck on the Dublin keeper, those type of balls are a nightmare.
Actually Nash made a mistake in the first half and got away with it, no Dublin forward rushing in to capitalise like Horgan did.

I watched it a few times online, Nash saved it. Straight at him, and the level he is at, he'd be disappointed if he didn't save it.

Annuv

Tobyglen wrote: »

It was late and it wasn't shoulder on shoulder. It's a simple excuse for some fans but it was a YC card, yes it changed the game but it was the correct call.
Second red was a bottle job by the ref, to suggest whether it would have happened if the first didn't happen is a pointless discussion. The ref made a very poor call.
Dublin will win an AI soon, this team may not make it but the resources have been poured it and it's good for the game.

I'm not a Dublin fan but if a player from my county got a yellow for that first incident I'd be disgusted. If my memory serves me correct, he did his best to ensure it was shoulder to shoulder and if he didn't have the strength and weight advantage that lead to the Cork player hitting the deck, I'd imagine there would have been no free even.

listermint

marco_polo wrote: »

I don't think it was that bad a mistake tbf, it was a well timed flick, not sure was ever in his hand to spill. Maybe he could have flicked it out to the side, but I think any keeper is going to go to pick the ball in that situation.

No way any keeper would have jumped on the ball rightly or wrongly. Trying to play it out with that pressure on you was madness

Nonoperational

A fantastic game by two teams giving it everything. Delighted for Cork, and it could have gone either way. The sending off and the goal were critical. In fairness though, Cork stuck in there during the period of Dublins relative dominance, and I felt regardless of the situation they had a kick left in them.

Ritchi

Taffy Kat wrote: »

Slightly irrelevant but how did David O'Callaghan come by the nickname Dotsy?

He has a "Dot" above his left eye:

Tombo2001

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Absolutely, it killed us. I said as much in my own post; we imploded after it

Not really, it killed the game in itself, it was scored with a couple of minutes to go and put the game out of reach.

This argument that it was the goal rather than the sending off the finished Dublin is a bit spurious.....it would make sense if had come before the sending off, but it didnt.

I would see the sending off as having the exact same effect as Patrick Horgan's sending off against Limerick.....even more of an effect.

Dublin were winning and in the ascendancy. If you look at the second half and break it down - before the sending off, Dublin had outscored Cork by 5 points to 2. They were winning by 2 points. After the sending off, Cork scored 3 on the trot and eventually outscored Dublin by 1-7 to 3 points.

The sending off had a massive impact of the game. I believe the player shouldnt have been sent off and most pundits seem to agree with that. As such, I can only conclude that Dublin were beaten by the ref in this match.

Am disgusted by this, because we are looking at a team - Cork - that I dont believe is one of the top two in the country, that have made their way into an all ireland final with the aid of two massive refereeing decisions in their favour.

Anonymou

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not really, it killed the game in itself, it was scored with a couple of minutes to go and put the game out of reach.

This argument that it was the goal rather than the sending off the finished Dublin is a bit spurious.....it would make sense if had come before the sending off, but it didnt.

I would see the sending off as having the exact same effect as Patrick Horgan's sending off against Limerick.....even more of an effect.

Dublin were winning and in the ascendancy. If you look at the second half and break it down - before the sending off, Dublin had outscored Cork by 5 points to 2. They were winning by 2 points. After the sending off, Cork scored 3 on the trot and eventually outscored Dublin by 1-7 to 3 points.

The sending off had a massive impact of the game. I believe the player shouldnt have been sent off and most pundits seem to agree with that. As such, I can only conclude that Dublin were beaten by the ref in this match.

Am disgusted by this, because we are looking at a team - Cork - that I dont believe is one of the top two in the country, that have made their way into an all ireland final with the aid of two massive refereeing decisions in their favour.

You could also say he did Dublin a massive favour by keeping Liam Rushe on the pitch?

Amprodude

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Am disgusted by this, because we are looking at a team - Cork - that I dont believe is one of the top two in the country, that have made their way into an all ireland final with the aid of two massive refereeing decisions in their favour.

Dublin had their chance to beat Cork before O Dwyer got sent off. And to say Dublin are better than Cork is just nonsense. From what I can see there was nothing between the teams. Cork had that bit more skill and found it easier to get scores than Dublin.

munsterlegend

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not really, it killed the game in itself, it was scored with a couple of minutes to go and put the game out of reach.

This argument that it was the goal rather than the sending off the finished Dublin is a bit spurious.....it would make sense if had come before the sending off, but it didnt.

I would see the sending off as having the exact same effect as Patrick Horgan's sending off against Limerick.....even more of an effect.

Dublin were winning and in the ascendancy. If you look at the second half and break it down - before the sending off, Dublin had outscored Cork by 5 points to 2. They were winning by 2 points. After the sending off, Cork scored 3 on the trot and eventually outscored Dublin by 1-7 to 3 points.

The sending off had a massive impact of the game. I believe the player shouldnt have been sent off and most pundits seem to agree with that. As such, I can only conclude that Dublin were beaten by the ref in this match.

Am disgusted by this, because we are looking at a team - Cork - that I dont believe is one of the top two in the country, that have made their way into an all ireland final with the aid of two massive refereeing decisions in their favour.

There is no doubt that the first yellow to O Dwyer should not have been given. However when a player is on a yellow he has to extra careful and that second yellow was fully merited. You can't be so reckless when you know you have a yellow - different if it was a straight red and the player must take some of the blame and not just the ref.

Impossible to know what would have happened had dwyer stayed on. at the time of sending off there was only a point in it and nash's free levelled it.

MrJoeSoap

munsterlegend wrote: »

There is no doubt that the first yellow to O Dwyer should not have been given. However when a player is on a yellow he has to extra careful and that second yellow was fully merited. You can't be so reckless when you know you have a yellow - different if it was a straight red and the player must take some of the blame and not just the ref.

Impossible to know what would have happened had dwyer stayed on. at the time of sending off there was only a point in it and nash's free levelled it.

I think we need to stick a fork in the O'Dwyer incident, it's done. Most people will agree that it was a bit on the harsh side. Everyone will agree that the second yellow was probably warranted and that the ref had little or no choice but to send him off. But the ref put himself under pressure and put Ryan under more pressure by giving a very soft early yellow card, in order to "set the tone".

Rightwing

Dublin are no bad team, but this was their year to win it, no question about that. They'll know it too.

Thinkstoomuch

Amprodude wrote: »

Dublin had their chance to beat Cork before O Dwyer got sent off. And to say Dublin are better than Cork is just nonsense. From what I can see there was nothing between the teams. Cork had that bit more skill and found it easier to get scores than Dublin.

Halleulagh ,at last some one speaks what i have been saying on the Cork thread.

Moneymaker

Rightwing wrote: »

Dublin are no bad team, but this was their year to win it, no question about that. They'll know it too.

We have a lot of young players and they will learn from this.

We will be back.

Tombo2001

Amprodude wrote: »

Dublin had their chance to beat Cork before O Dwyer got sent off. And to say Dublin are better than Cork is just nonsense. From what I can see there was nothing between the teams. Cork had that bit more skill and found it easier to get scores than Dublin.

How could Dublin have had the match won by the sending off....? he was sent off in the 55th minute, the match lasts for 70.

The facts speak for themselves. The first half was dead even. From the start of the second half - Dublin were completely dominating before the sending off, Cork completely dominated after the sending off, looking at both the scoreboard and the run of play.

StephenHendry

great game , was hoping the dubs would do it. ever with ROD sending off, it was still in the balance up until cork got the goal, it had a drawn game written all over it, they were level 15 times . hopefully more of the same next week. :P

Dyr

Amprodude wrote: »

. Cork had that bit more skill and found it easier to get scores than Dublin.

They found it easier to get scores? Then how come it was neck and neck up until the sending off? :rolleyes:

Cork had that bit more bodies for the last 15 minutes and that made the difference.

rebel girl 15

Tombo2001 wrote: »

How could Dublin have had the match won by the sending off....? he was sent off in the 55th minute, the match lasts for 70.

The facts speak for themselves. The first half was dead even. From the start of the second half - Dublin were completely dominating before the sending off, Cork completely dominated after the sending off, looking at both the scoreboard and the run of play.

Dublin had this habit of having a super second half, saw it against Wexford and Kilkenny, where they were able to kick on and close out the game. They were getting on top, no doubt, and the free Ryan missed just before the sending off, and the fact that Nash pointed from that free O Dwyer gave away put the momentum firmly back in Cork's favour, instead of being two points up, and with 15, Dublin were level and a man down.

Huge credit to Dublin, right until Hoggie's goal there was nothing between the teams - with a man down that is a huge achievement given the space in Croke Park and the huge pace and intensity of the game.

InchicoreDude

With the Liam Rushe incident, should it not have been a free in to Cork? How can a player swing back like that and the injured player does not get a free? Am I missing something in the rules here?

rebel girl 15

InchicoreDude wrote: »

With the Liam Rushe incident, should it not have been a free in to Cork? How can a player swing back like that and the injured player does not get a free? Am I missing something in the rules here?

Rushe was being fouled, which he got the free for, but because he swung back, Owens should have cancelled the free and thrown the ball in.

corny

It was the positional switches at the start of the second half that began turning the game in Dublins favour. They pulled McCaffrey back to the half back line and used Rushe as the free man. This allowed him to go looking for the ball and his influence dramatically increased. No longer were Cork winning the simple breaking ball and the easy scores they were getting in the first half.

Dublin really should have changed tactics after 10 minutes truth be told. Man for man we weren't good enough at the back.

Rightwing

Cork had the class. They'll be very hard to stop if not impossible.

InchicoreDude

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Rushe was being fouled, which he got the free for, but because he swung back, Owens should have cancelled the free and thrown the ball in.

Aah ok, I didnt realise that the whistle had actually gone for a free to Rushe. Makes his swing back look even more stupid now.

Rightwing

corny wrote: »

It was the positional switches at the start of the second half that began turning the game in Dublins favour. They pulled McCaffrey back to the half back line and used Rushe as the free man. This allowed him to go looking for the ball and his influence dramatically increased. No longer were Cork winning the simple breaking ball and the easy scores they were getting in the first half.

Dublin really should have changed tactics after 10 minutes truth be told. Man for man we weren't good enough at the back.

That's a very good point. It was a testament of their battling qualities that they hung in there in the 1st half.

ArielAtom

Cliste wrote: »

Because Dublin weren't in the driving seat before that red!?

Did you watch the game?

Yes I watched the game, Dublin were on top at the time of sending off, so yes it was the major influence in a superb game, 14 men v Cork in Croker is a big ask.

corny

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a very good point. It was a testament of their battling qualities that they hung in there in the 1st half.

We'd construct a move: break a tackle, create space, disposes a Cork player and score a good point. Nash would then pump a simple ball down the middle, the ball would break and a Cork player would nip by and tap it over the bar. They came by the majority of their scores too easy from a Dublin perspective.

We really should have addressed that earlier.

Rightwing

corny wrote: »

We'd construct a move: break a tackle, create space, disposes a Cork player and score a good point. Nash would then pump a simple ball down the middle, the ball would break and a Cork player would nip by and tap it over the bar. They came by the majority of their scores too easy from a Dublin perspective.

We really should have addressed that earlier.

Exactly. I also felt if Cork got a goal in the first half, they'd pull away.

Dublin were also naive allowing Cork massive room with the short puckouts. LK made the same mistake in the munster final.

Rebel Fan

Was at the game yesterday, probably the most exciting game ive seen since the 04 Munster Final when Waterford beat us by a point. It was an incredible match that had everything. Sending off was very harsh, just like Hoggie in The Munster Final. It always leaves a bitter taste in the mouth when that happens, but that's sport. Atmosphere at the game was electric, Dubs on the hill in full voice and the huge crowd from Cork cheering us on, I paid 45 euro for my son and I and its the best value for money Ive had in a long long time. Hurling has restored itself to number 1 in Irish sport again IMO. While Im delighted we won I do feel sad for the Dubs, they put in a tremendous effort and came up just short. Every team needs a bit of luck to get over the line and it definitely fell our way in the 2nd half. Dalo needs to stay on, hes put the foundations in place to make Dublin competitive for the next few years, he should be given a 2 year term to see if he can deliver the big one. Im sure most Dubs will be hoping he stays.
Both teams got some great scores yesterday, out by the sideline, back to goal, it didn't matter, they were going over from everywhere. Sending off swung it our way but it was the awareness of Hoggie for the goal which was ultimately the difference in the end. It was a privilege to be there to witness such a spectacle.
Onto the final now we march and if we can produce the same again we'll take some beating. 8 years without a hurling title is too long for The Rebels.

CORCAIGH ABU!!!

PS Has anybody seen Sean Og since yesterday, he's gone very quiet since he's been proved wrong, he should do the decent thing now and publicly support JBM and the boys in the final, though I wouldn't hold my breath.

Amprodude

Tombo2001 wrote: »

How could Dublin have had the match won by the sending off....? he was sent off in the 55th minute, the match lasts for 70.

The facts speak for themselves. The first half was dead even. From the start of the second half - Dublin were completely dominating before the sending off, Cork completely dominated after the sending off, looking at both the scoreboard and the run of play.

Dublin weren't completely dominating. They never led by more than 2 points. They had phases of play where they dominated but same with Cork.

Amprodude

Bambi wrote: »

They found it easier to get scores? Then how come it was neck and neck up until the sending off? :rolleyes:

Cork had that bit more bodies for the last 15 minutes and that made the difference.

Dublin should have kept their composure and none of the players would have been sent off. It doesn't excuse that Cork were marginally the better team yesterday and scored more than Dublin in the two half's and most importantly on the scoreboard. Full stop.

The_Kew_Tour

Having watched the game again, no question Dublin are on the up. They will win a AI with this team or bones of it

adrian522

I was at the game yesterday and I certainly felt that Dublin had the momentum early in the second half. I thought they were the better team at that point and would possibly have gone on to win.

It would have been an epic finish but we never got to see how it would have played out. It is certainly possible that Cork could have upped their game again to wrestle back the momentum.

I felt Dublin panicked a little when O'Dwyer was sent off, there was some poor decision making and even with the sending off I felt they were still in with a chance.

But no question they have a really good team there and the experience of yesterday will stand to them when the pressure comes on in big games over the next few years.

I have a feeling for Limerick for next Sunday to setup a repeat of the Munster final. Good luck trying to get tickets to that one.

Tombo2001

Amprodude wrote: »

Dublin weren't completely dominating. They never led by more than 2 points. They had phases of play where they dominated but same with Cork.

As I said in an earlier post -

Breaking down the second half:

Dublin dominated a period of play before the sending off (15 minutes). They outscored Cork by 5 points to 2 in that period.

Cork dominated after the sending off. They outscored Dublin by 1-4 to 0-3 in that period.

The sending off was not warranted according to most pundits, and it clearly was the defining incident of the game, and it clearly completely changed the direction of the game.