Questions : EMT in Civil Defence

Francesco

Hi all,

I'm considering joining the CD casualty section.

To give me an idea of progression and timescale, if you attend training regularly, roughly how long does it take to become qualified as EFR and then as EMT ?

Like all things, I'm sure it can vary a lot from unit to unit, but I just want a rough idea

I'm guessing reaching EMT standard probably takes a couple of years overall ?

How does this compare with OMAC and SJA and IRC ?

Also can I ask, do CD do much radio training, e.g. the new tetra system ?

Also do CD have much involvement with the Amateur Radio Emergency Network ? : http://www.aren.ie/home.html

What's a typical training night in a good unit, and what's a typical weekend camp / summer camp like etc.

Sorry for all the questions, but I think its a better to have some idea of these things before joining

civdef

EFR qualification will normally be at least a year after you've joined. You have to have been an EFR for at least 2 years to go for EMT training, which will take ~6 months. Typically it'll be 5+ years from joining.

Couldn't tell you what other groups are like.

Most units do a fair amount of radio training (for my money one of the most boring things possible). Tetra is fairly new in CD and hasn't been rolled out fully, analogue UHF and VHF systems are still the mainstay.

CD doesn't have much involvement with AREN (does anyone?)

Typical training night is very hard to describe, but where I am it's 2 hours duration, in the door - have a quick word about what's planned then the actual training for around 90 minutes, then some basic gear checks, cleaning etc, finishing off with a chat and a cup of tea.

Weekend / summer camps have become a lot less common over the past 5 years.

palmtrees

I'm there 5 years and and EFR for 3. I'm going for the EMT in a few weeks and I would be one of the newest ones going for it! This is much the same as it is for other orgs from what I've heard.

Plenty of radio training, tetra is being rolled out. Each country have instructors who run courses regularly. Never heard of AREN.

Typical training night: 2 hours some evening brushing up on skills, then sprints whenever doing a course (1, 3 or 5 days at a time for CFR, OFA and EFR).

Weekends away would include a lot of scenario-based training. One way I've seen this done is to do some work on, say, trauma in the morning and then an exercise in the afternoon with a debriefing after.

Francesco

civdef wrote: »

EFR qualification will normally be at least a year after you've joined. You have to have been an EFR for at least 2 years to go for EMT training, which will take ~6 months. Typically it'll be 5+ years from joining.

Couldn't tell you what other groups are like.

Most units do a fair amount of radio training (for my money one of the most boring things possible). Tetra is fairly new in CD and hasn't been rolled out fully, analogue UHF and VHF systems are still the mainstay.

CD doesn't have much involvement with AREN (does anyone?)

Typical training night is very hard to describe, but where I am it's 2 hours duration, in the door - have a quick word about what's planned then the actual training for around 90 minutes, then some basic gear checks, cleaning etc, finishing off with a chat and a cup of tea.

Weekend / summer camps have become a lot less common over the past 5 years.

5+ years to reach EMT ?, that seems a bit excessive and stifling, as EMT requires something like 120 hours of training. Are only certain ranks allowed to do EMT training ?

Thanks. When I say radio training, I'm not talking about learning and practicing basic voice procedure and using walkie talkies, that is boring (but necessary). I'm talking about setting up radio nets, base stations, and temporary mobile antenna masts etc. that can be used when all other comms are down. As far as I'm aware Tetra relies on mobile phone network etc. and in a large natural disaster, as proven many's a time, electricity, and therefore cell phone masts, internet, email, landlines etc. etc. will be the first things out of action. Without comms it's impossible to co-ordinate and focus emergency services effectively. I'm very surprised there is not more emphasis on this. It would seem an ideal role for the CD

Francesco

Would OMAC and SJA and IRC offer any faster progression to EMT ?

I expected two to three years or so, but certainly not 5+ years, something's wrong there.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

Would OMAC and SJA and IRC offer any faster progression to EMT ?

I expected two to three years or so, but certainly not 5+ years, something's wrong there.

I think there about the same, they want to ensure your serious about it before they put the money down. Why not do the course privately if your in such a hurry?

sgthighway

In the Order of Malta Ireland; It is recommended that applicants have been a member of Order of Malta Ireland for three years minimum. However, OICs should recommend any member they believe to be suitable for the course.

Francesco

Rob32 wrote: »

I think there about the same, they want to ensure your serious about it before they put the money down. Why not do the course privately if your in such a hurry?

Because I want to do voluntary work as a well trained capable volunteer, not join a tea drinking social club with a free uniform while waiting 5+years for 120 hours training.

Why would you say querying 5+ years before commencing 120 hours training is "being in such a hurry ?"

Why is 2-3 years not a realistic expectation ? 2-3 years is hardly "being in a such a hurry", this is sounding like a sketch from the dun-believables.

I would have thought that quite reasonable expectation for essential training in the emergency services ?

I had hoped the CD had moved on in recent years.

I don't think waiting 5 years+ for EMT training is acceptable in this day and age for any serious voluntary emergency services training. That sounds suspiciously more like club politics. Something that has no place in voluntary emergency services.

Nothing personal, but if I'm going to give up my free time to an organisation, take it seriously, and put my heart into it, I would expect the same in return.

Francesco

sgthighway wrote: »

In the Order of Malta Ireland; It is recommended that applicants have been a member of Order of Malta Ireland for three years minimum. However, OICs should recommend any member they believe to be suitable for the course.

3 years sounds a bit more normal.

civdef

Way to go dissing the organisation you were looking to join a couple of hours ago.

Francesco

civdef wrote: »

Way to go dissing the organisation you were looking to join a couple of hours ago.

Asking questions is not 'dissing' anything, and I'm very glad I asked them now.

I'm very interested in joining a voluntary emergency services group that trains all their members up to an effective standard in 2-3 years so they can provide effective meaningful cover. Something is badly wrong if it take 5+ years, that smells of group politics. I'm not going to waste years of my free time on the wrong one and group politics. I want to spend my years and efforts in the correct one.

civdef

I could start writing about skills development, volunteer retention rates, resource allocation or whatever. I might even point out that a well experienced EFR is a lot more use in the real world than a fast-turnaround EMT, or the fact "120 hours" doesn't really even scratch the surface of what training EMT needs in reality.

Probably not worth my while - you've made your mind up and decided to start posting funny pictures of John Kenny & Pat Shortt instead.

sgthighway

I said "It is recommended that applicants have been a member of Order of Malta Ireland for three years minimum". In most cases it would be longer. There would normally be competition for places. Lenght of Service and the Amount of Duties you do would be a big factor in getting nominated to do the course. The unit will be making an investment and will be expecting a good return.

In alot of units the uniform is not free. You pay for it.

Tea Drinking is an important part. Thats were we chat, have a bit of banter and the craic.

Francesco

I'm afraid you lost me at "you must wait 5+ years" (group politics giveaway that one) before your properly trained, "what's your big hurry to be properly trained in 2-3 years", and "don't ever question anything, that's dissing us". That's all the alarm bells I need. Nothing personal, but by asking the right questions, and pushing the right buttons, I've saved myself years slowly drinking tea and waiting for drip feed training in the wrong organisation when I could be learning effective first aid. I'll remove the picture, which illustrated my fears, which have not been allayed.

Francesco

sgthighway wrote: »

I said "It is recommended that applicants have been a member of Order of Malta Ireland for three years minimum". In most cases it would be longer. There would normally be competition for places. Lenght of Service and the Amount of Duties you do would be a big factor in getting nominated to do the course. The unit will be making an investment and will be expecting a good return.

In alot of units the uniform is not free. You pay for it.

Tea Drinking is an important part. Thats were we chat, have a bit of banter and the craic.

Grand, none of that's a problem for me, and I would expect that. At least its not "5+ years" and 2-3 years is considered "a big hurry". That's where I smelled a group politics rat, and heard the alarm bells.

civdef

Francesco wrote: »

I'm afraid you lost me at "you must wait 5+ years" (group politics giveaway that one) before your properly trained, "what's your big hurry to be properly trained in 2-3 years", and "don't ever question anything, that's dissing us". That's all the alarm bells I need. Nothing personal, by asking the right the questions, and pushing the right buttons, I've saved myself years slowly drinking tea and waiting for drip feed training in the wrong organisation when I could be learning effective first aid.

Against my better judgement I'm going to answer this - You asked a fairly straightforward question and got a reasonably simple reply from me and others.

Your response to this was to call CD "a tea drinking social club with a free uniform" and compare it to the D'Unbelieveables - and you wonder why I'm a bit tee'd off? Are you for real?

You appear to be extremely ill-informed as to what casualty training involves, and seem to be much more interested in collecting qualifications as quickly as possible. You've written off the value of experience, discarded as worthless all qualifications below EMT, disregarded the realities of training volunteers, and seem in short to be focussing on all the wrong things. It's an attitude that does not auger well for success in a voluntary organisation.

You'd probably be far better off taking a wad of cash to one of the private training companies - in that at least, they'll recognise your true value, and you'll have a somewhat better than evens chance of getting an EMT cert at the end of it.

Francesco

Ok, let's look at your assumptions and give you another chance :

civdef wrote: »

You appear to be extremely ill-informed as to what casualty training involves

Perhaps it would be a better approach to actually inform us what it does involve in the CD, rather than "its 5+ years whats you're big hurry to receive effective training"

civdef wrote: »

and seem to be much more interested in collecting qualifications as quickly as possible.

Absolutely not, I could just pay to do a 120 hour course. I WANT to spend hours / years in a voluntary emergency services org, but in return I want proper training and commitment from the organisation as well, not drip feed training and politics and years of hanging around for a certified course

civdef wrote: »

You've written off the value of experience

No, you haven't bothered to demonstrate what experience anyone gets

civdef wrote: »

, discarded as worthless all qualifications below EMT

Wrong, I also asked about EFR

civdef wrote: »

It's an attitude that does not auger well for success in a voluntary organisation.

I've already reached an extremely high level in one voluntary organisation, it's precisely because of this experience I know what questions to ask and what buttons to push to flush out any group politics bull, and any bullsyte answers about training and operational opportunities in REALITY.

miju

Francesco wrote: »

That sounds suspiciously more like club politics. Something that has no place in voluntary emergency services.
.

Little bit of advice that will serve you well. ALL the vols have 'club politics' .

If you really want to be well trained then you'll join an work your way through clinical levels from Basic through EMT.

You can helpful and well trained at Basic First Aid level and assist higher clinical levels and learn as you go, its the best way.

Though to be honest, amd I think others will agree , from your asking in all different threads it seems like your just on the hunt for an EMT qualification as fast as possible.

That leads me on to my other little bit of advice for you, vol orgs can spot those a mile away

Tripp

Working your way up from the basics to EMT is the best way. If your joining just to get a EMT qualification then theres something wrong. CD has been burned too many times sending people on EMT courses and they get their qualification then **** off elsewhere.

Francesco

miju wrote: »

Little bit of advice that will serve you well. ALL the vols have 'club politics' .

Little bit of advice in return, I'm well aware of that, and that's why I want one with more training and deployment than politics, so I'll continue to ask the hard questions until I get some answers with real content.

miju wrote: »

If you really want to be well trained then you'll join an work your way through clinical levels from Basic through EMT.

Better answer

miju wrote: »

You can helpful and well trained at Basic First Aid level and assist higher clinical levels and learn as you go, its the best way.

Better answer

miju wrote: »

Though to be honest, amd I think others will agree , from your asking in all different threads it seems like your just on the hunt for an EMT qualification as fast as possible.

That leads me on to my other little bit of advice for you, vol orgs can spot those a mile away

Assumption fail, and you were doing better for a while.

Francesco

Tripp wrote: »

Working your way up from the basics to EMT is the best way. If your joining just to get a EMT qualification then theres something wrong. CD has been burned too many times sending people on EMT courses and they get their qualification then **** off elsewhere.

Better answer, and I'm not, but it is a good indication of how serious they are about delivering EQUALITY of training for effective deployment versus group politics and personal empire building. These things only destroy a voluntary organisation. Training people properly and having a professional approach does not cause them to feck off elsewhere as you put it. Keeping training from people in the worry that they might actually be more skillful in the long run than the the dead wood that stay for years doing nothing does cause people to feck off. That's where I'm coming from. I want to stay, not feck off, but it has to be somewhere worth staying. Staying 2-3 years before you get on an EMT course is acceptable, if I was in a "big hurry" I could pay for one next week, being told "5 years +" is a dead giveaway of group politics and a fear of the skilled showing up and displacing the bluffers. Every organisation has a turnover, no one should be afraid of training people. 2-3 years of a persons free time is actually a very good commitment, not a bad one, and if the organisation is any good in reality and in terms of equality, they will stay much much longer.

Rob32

Im not with CD firstly, just to point that out.


Considering the opinion youve displayed in this thread id be suprised to see and organisation train you to practitioner level to be honest, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself. I see nothing wrong with needing to wait 5+ years to recieve emt training, when you consider the cost and all of the people before you also awaiting training.

You mention you were quite high up in another organisation, perhaps your attitude is the reason they didnt provide you with EMT training.......

Francesco

Rob32 wrote: »

Im not with CD firstly, just to point that out.

Considering the opinion youve displayed in this thread id be suprised to see and organisation train you to practitioner level to be honest, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself. I see nothing wrong with needing to wait 5+ years to recieve emt training, when you consider the cost and all of the people before you also awaiting training.

You mention you were quite high up in another organisation, perhaps your attitude is the reason they didnt provide you with EMT training.......

I suppose if you can't handle the questions you can always try the attack the poster tactic.

The cost of EMT training is nothing compared to the many unpaid hours a volunteer puts in to an organisation over 2-3 years. Especially a local authority and dept. of defence organised and funded organisation like the CD. If the private and entirely charity funded organisations such as OMAC and IRC seem to be able to offer it in 3 years, not "5 +" , something is seriously wrong with the politics in the CD and it sets alarm bells off for me. I'm fairly fussy about who I devote my time, energy, and skills to, and as I give my all to any organisation I'm involved with, that's entirely my prerogative, not yours, and I make no apologies for it. I'll ask whatever questions I feel like to make sure I'm not wasting my time. If others have low expectations of their abilities, and their time value, and are unaware of the petty 'fear of ability' and 'hide and restrict the training' politics going on around them, and are happy with a low standard of training and deployment, that's not my problem, that's theirs. As for the other organisation, it has nothing to do with EMT and emergency services.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

The cost of EMT training is nothing compared to the many unpaid hours a volunteer puts in to an organisation over 2-3 years. Especially a local authority and dept. of defence organised and funded organisation like the CD. If the private and entirely charity funded organisations such as OMAC and IRC seem to be able to offer it in 3 years, not "5 +" , something is seriously wrong with the politics in the CD and it sets alarm bells off for me. I'm fairly fussy about who I devote my time, energy, and skills to, and as I give my all to any organisation I'm involved with, that's entirely my prerogative, not yours, and I make no apologies for it. I'll ask whatever questions I feel like to make sure I'm not wasting my time. If others have low expectations of their abilities, and their time value, and are unaware of the petty 'fear of ability' and 'hide and restrict the training' politics going on around them, and are happy with a low standard of training and deployment, that's not my problem, that's theirs. As for the other organisation, it has nothing to do with EMT and emergency services.

So your group politics are based from your experiences with an organisation in a completely different field of work? um tarring everyone with the same brush springs to mind. Also correct me if ive misread but are you implying that all voluntary organisations deploy teams that have a "a low standard of training" because they "are unaware of the petty 'fear of ability' and 'hide and restrict the training' politics going on around them" ???

Francesco

Rob32 wrote: »

So your group politics are based from your experiences with an organisation in a completely different field of work? um tarring everyone with the same brush springs to mind. Also correct me if ive misread but are you implying that all voluntary organisations deploy teams that have a "a low standard of training" because they "are unaware of the petty 'fear of ability' and 'hide and restrict the training' politics going on around them" ???

I suppose if you can't answer the hard questions you can always try the attack the poster tactic yet again. Your assumptions are wrong again. My experiences are based on life and being involved in many things over many years.

Rob32 wrote: »

Im not with CD firstly, just to point that out.

Then I can push the ignore button so. Bye.

Rob32

Dont know if the OP can see this or not, however:

I really think you need to step back here, every post youve made leads me and possibly others to feel you think you should join up and be sent for EMT training as soon as, this doesnt happen in the real world. Also you give the impression you think the voluntaries are full of untrained idiots. You seem very arrogant in your posts here and as previously stated, and if your as devoted as you say, I think you should start at the bottom and work your way up to EMT no matter how long it takes. You should be in the voluntaries to help people not to just get a qualification.

If the OP has in fact hit the ignore button, ill simply ( and i hope correctly) assume that he couldnt refute my points

miju

Francesco wrote: »

The cost of EMT training is nothing compared to the many unpaid hours a volunteer puts in to an organisation over 2-3 years.

Spoken exactly like a person with no clue of how vol services work, equip, train and fund themselves.

Francesco

Rob32 wrote: »

Dont know if the OP can see this or not, however:

I really think you need to step back here, every post youve made leads me and possibly others to feel you think you should join up and be sent for EMT training as soon as, this doesnt happen in the real world. Also you give the impression you think the voluntaries are full of untrained idiots. You seem very arrogant in your posts here and as previously stated, and if your as devoted as you say, I think you should start at the bottom and work your way up to EMT no matter how long it takes. You should be in the voluntaries to help people not to just get a qualification.

If the OP has in fact hit the ignore button, ill simply ( and i hope correctly) assume that he couldnt refute my points

Again you can't answer the questions, again you try attack the poster tactics. That says a lot more about you than me. I've said many times I expect to put in many years and do EMR first, but as ever because it does not suit you ignore this. If someone is going to be deployed to provide backup emergency service training to the public, then they should be trained to the highest possible standard in the most efficient possible time, anything else is playing politics with lives and delivering a sub standard service to the public. If you can't grasp that concept you've no businesses in the voluntary emergency services. If one voluntary emergency services organisation is able to train people up to EMT standard after 3 years, but another refuses to do it until "5 years plus", serious questions have to be asked about that organisations ability and commitment to it's members and the public, and not continually avoided. But I suppose you can continue to attack the poster again and not the post.

No Logo

Francesco wrote: »

Asking questions is not 'dissing' anything, and I'm very glad I asked them now.

I'm very interested in joining a voluntary emergency services group that trains all their members up to an effective standard in 2-3 years so they can provide effective meaningful cover. Something is badly wrong if it take 5+ years, that smells of group politics. I'm not going to waste years of my free time on the wrong one and group politics. I want to spend my years and efforts in the correct one.

First of all, I only joined so I could respond to this thread, loathsome as I am to fuel the fire. I usually just look at the photos

Essentially Francesco, what you've done in the space of a couple of posts and in the absence of any meaningful experience, is portrayed Civil Defence as some amateur clique of tea drinkers. I for one have been a little insulted. Someone gave you an honest assessment of the period of time needed to make EMT level. 5+ years sounds like a fair average. I'm 2 years involved, and I don't think I'd be comfortable going forward for EMT training before 5 years minimum. You could conceivably go on every casualty duty for a year and not encounter a serious emergency despite the intensive CD training you'd receive.

What makes you think you'd be ready for EMT training after 2/3 years, let alone be a competent practitioner that could have clinical lead (read: "responsibility") in an ambulance?

The reality is that a lot of casualty instructors are HSE P / AP's and if they think your ready to progress to the next clinical level there shouldn't be an issue. You might be exceptional and get an EMT course in two years. Unlikely though, as the reality is most people aren't exceptional and are merely human and thus require experience and practice.

Your ideas about setting up radio nets etc. in times of infrastructural failure are actually worthy of discussion but your jump to conclusions about the organisation based on EMT training has overshadowed everything else.

If all you want to do is casualty work I'd advise joining another Vol. CD's roles are wide ranging and vary from county to county. Casualty training is a core skill but it also compliments all the other roles, ranging from SAR to adverse weather to supporting other agencies at potentially anything (within reason) depending on their needs.

Francesco

miju wrote: »

Spoken exactly like a person with no clue of how vol services work, equip, train and fund themselves.

Spoken with no clue about what I'm also involved in. Its precisely because I have this experience I'm able to smell bullshyte answers a mile off.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

Again you can't answer the questions, again you try attack the poster tactics. That says a lot more about you than me. I've said many times I expect to put in many years and do EMR first, but as ever because it does not suit you ignore this. If someone is going to be deployed to provide backup emergency service training to the public, then they should be trained to the highest possible standard in the most efficient possible time, anything else is playing politics with lives and delivering a sub standard service to the public. If you can't grasp that concept you've no businesses in the voluntary emergency services. If one voluntary emergency services organisation is able to train people up to EMT standard after 3 years, but another refuses to do it until "5 years plus", serious questions have to be asked about that organisations ability and commitment to it's members and the public, and not continually avoided. But I suppose you can continue to attack the poster again and not the post.

Francesco wrote: »

Spoken with no clue about what I'm also involved in. Its precisely because I have this experience I'm able to smell bullshyte answers a mile off.

So every volunteer should be trained to EMT level regardless of cost or time involved?

Right post your questions in numerical order and ill answer them for you.