Questions : EMT in Civil Defence

miju

Francesco wrote: »

Spoken with no clue about what I'm also involved in. Its precisely because I have this experience I'm able to smell bullshyte answers a mile off.

Francesco wrote: »

Spoken with no clue about what I'm also involved in. Its precisely because I have this experience I'm able to smell bullshyte answers a mile off.

Right so, lets get to crux and this knowledge of yours. Can you give me a rough calculation as to how long an ambulance volunteer takes to ''pay' for themselves between uniform and training costs from basic to cfr to ofa to efr to emt

For the fun of it we wont include that volunteers equipment cost or indeed the cost of anything to do with a veichle and we wont include turn over of volunteers either.

And I'll even be very generous and say the volunteer does at least one duty every week.

So whats the timeframe ?

Francesco

No Logo wrote: »

First of all, I only joined so I could respond to this thread, loathsome as I am to fuel the fire. I usually just look at the photos

Essentially Francesco, what you've done in the space of a couple of posts and in the absence of any meaningful experience, is portrayed Civil Defence as some amateur clique of tea drinkers. I for one have been a little insulted. Someone gave you an honest assessment of the period of time needed to make EMT level. 5+ years sounds like a fair average. I'm 2 years involved, and I don't think I'd be comfortable going forward for EMT training before 5 years minimum. You could conceivably go on every casualty duty for a year and not encounter a serious emergency despite the intensive CD training you'd receive.

What makes you think you'd be ready for EMT training after 2/3 years, let alone be a competent practitioner that could have clinical lead (read: "responsibility") in an ambulance?

The reality is that a lot of casualty instructors are HSE P / AP's and if they think your ready to progress to the next clinical level there shouldn't be an issue. You might be exceptional and get an EMT course in two years. Unlikely though, as the reality is most people aren't exceptional and are merely human and thus require experience and practice.

Your ideas about setting up radio nets etc. in times of infrastructural failure are actually worthy of discussion but your jump to conclusions about the organisation based on EMT training has overshadowed everything else.

If all you want to do is casualty work I'd advise joining another Vol. CD's roles are wide ranging and vary from county to county. Casualty training is a core skill but it also compliments all the other roles, ranging from SAR to adverse weather to supporting other agencies at potentially anything (within reason) depending on their needs.

In the private sector certified EMT to the complete satisfaction of PHECC can be delivered in 120 hours, I'm not asking for that, I've no interest in that, but I don't want to wait 5 years plus to offer the public the best service possible, when other voluntary organisations can provide the public with fully trained members in 3. Something is wrong there, CD cannot be as serious about putting the best possible volunteer in front of the public if its 5 years plus before you receive the same training. PHECC introduced common standards for a reason.

I'm glad you took the time to answer and at least tried to make an attempt to answer the questions seriously instead of attacking the poster, one of the first to do so, but not completely. If the CD, or any voluntary organisation wants new members they are going to have to be prepared to be straight and up front with potential members and answer their questions without getting defensive and hostile.

I was generally interested in the CD, but due to the extremely defensive and hostile reactions to asking basic common sense questions, I suspect there's something fundamentally not working in the CD in terms of providing the public with as many members with quality first aid training as possible, whether your aware of it or not. I'll be looking towards the IRC, OMAC and SJA now.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

In the private sector certified EMT to the complete satisfaction of PHECC can be delivered in 120 hours, I'm not asking for that, I've no interest in that, but I don't want to wait 5 years plus to offer the public the best service possible, when other voluntary organisations can provide the public with fully trained members in 3. Something is wrong there, CD cannot be as serious about putting the best possible volunteer in front of the public if its 5 years plus before you receive the same training. PHECC introduced common standards for a reason.

I'm glad you took the time to answer and at least tried to make an attempt to answer the questions seriously instead of attacking the poster, one of the first to do so, but not completely. If the CD, or any voluntary organisation wants new members they are going to have to be prepared to be straight and up front with potential members and answer their questions.

I was generally interested in the CD, but due to the extremely defensive and hostile reactions to asking basic common sense questions, that tells me there's something fundamentally not working in the CD. I'll be looking towards the IRC, OMAC and SJA now.

Ironic how he ignores me when I offer to answer all of his questions if he lays them out in an orderly fashion isnt it :P

sgthighway

Francesco wrote: »

I was generally interested in the CD, but due to the extremely defensive and hostile reactions to asking basic common sense questions, that tells me there's something fundamentally not working in the CD. I'll be looking towards the IRC, OMAC and SJA now.

You would got a similar reply if you put down you were generally interested in Order of Malta Ireland.

You can only volunteer so much. Our Ambulance can sit 5 people and has one trolley stretcher so there is only 4 members on each team. There are x amount of teams on a roster. There would be a minimum of one EMT on each crew and sometimes 2 or an EMT and Paramedic. Sometimes the EFRs don't get to treat and sometimes the EMTs/Paramedics sit back and observe the EFR treating. Between all the different groups there is not as many duties so it can be a struggle to get enough experience CPC points as it is.

Some groups struggle to get their members up to EFR Standard because Instructors are not available.

I suggest you call to your local vol group and ask them the story there because every unit/branch will be different even within the same org. They might not have the money to send you after a few years.

Reckon this is going to be locked soon ;-)

miju

Francesco wrote: »

I'll be looking towards the IRC, OMAC and SJA now.

Just for giggles, in my 20 odd years of volunteering in ambos through breaks and what not i've experience of most of them being a member except for CD and Im a vol trained EMT who got on the course after 14 months (yes Im exceptional)

Just so you know OMAC is worse for politics and you'll be waiting longer than 3 years and I can say that with 100% confidence.

IRC cant say how long you'll wait but I had to wait 5 months for a uniform and only then I had bottoms and they still hadnt started the basic coursr for members in it a few months.

SJA always had politics also but that said I'm on way back to where I started

Somehow, I dont think any vol you join will keep you happy

CB19Kevo

Your attitude stinks,Highly possible that you are trolling though.
Maybe you should use google and look at what civil defence is before coming on here and bad mouthing an entire organisation and its members.

You will receive EMT training IF AND WHEN you are deemed ready by instructors.
It's a serious role and that is why it may take many years to build knowledge, Communication skills and confidence.

Get off your high horse,And if a org take's you i hope you wont display this attitude as it will not serve you well.

Francesco

Rob32 wrote: »

Ironic how he ignores me when I offer to answer all of his questions if he lays them out in an orderly fashion isnt it :P

They are there in all my earlier posts, the ones you continue to ignore.

No Logo

Francesco wrote: »

In the private sector certified EMT to the complete satisfaction of PHECC can be delivered in 120 hours, I'm not asking for that, I've no interest in that, but I don't want to wait 5 years plus to offer the public the best service possible, when other voluntary organisations can provide the public with fully trained members in 3. Something is wrong there, CD cannot be as serious about putting the best possible volunteer in front of the public if its 5 years plus before you receive the same training. PHECC introduced common standards for a reason.

I'm glad you took the time to answer and at least tried to make an attempt to answer the questions seriously instead of attacking the poster, one of the first to do so, but not completely. If the CD, or any voluntary organisation wants new members they are going to have to be prepared to be straight and up front with potential members and answer their questions without getting defensive and hostile.

I was generally interested in the CD, but due to the extremely defensive and hostile reactions to asking basic common sense questions, I suspect there's something fundamentally not working in the CD in terms of providing the public with as many members with quality first aid training as possible, whether your aware of it or not. I'll be looking towards the IRC, OMAC and SJA now.

With the greatest respect, you seem to have had an agenda from the outset. You seized upon the 5+ years comment very quickly and have based all your assumptions on the CD accordingly. As a result, though you seem unawares, you've denigrated the character of CD and offended people. I think I answered you basic question which was "how long will it take to make EMT" and my answer was, in a nutshell, if the instructors think you're ready you'll get the course.

PHECC may have common standards but so does the RSA. Are you suggesting all drivers are of equal competence?

CD has volunteers at all PHECC clinical levels up to EMT because most casualty incidents do not require an EMT's full compliment of skills and training and thus OFA and EFR can also play a valuable role.

I think you may be better off in another Vol, as you've suggested, and the very best of luck with it. If you decide to volunteer with CD, you should speak to your local CDO and instructors and not base your views on d'internet.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

They are there in all my earlier posts, the ones you continue to ignore.

Im in a voluntary organisation so make it easy for me seeing as im incompetent and drink too much tea.

Francesco

sgthighway wrote: »

You would got a similar reply if you put down you were generally interested in Order of Malta Ireland.

You can only volunteer so much. Our Ambulance can sit 5 people and has one trolley stretcher so there is only 4 members on each team. There are x amount of teams on a roster. There would be a minimum of one EMT on each crew and sometimes 2 or an EMT and Paramedic. Sometimes the EFRs don't get to treat and sometimes the EMTs/Paramedics sit back and observe the EFR treating. Between all the different groups there is not as many duties so it can be a struggle to get enough experience CPC points as it is.

Some groups struggle to get their members up to EFR Standard because Instructors are not available.

I suggest you call to your local vol group and ask them the story there because every unit/branch will be different even within the same org. They might not have the money to send you after a few years.

Reckon this is going to be locked soon ;-)

miju wrote: »

Just for giggles, in my 20 odd years of volunteering in ambos through breaks and what not i've experience of most of them being a member except for CD and Im a vol trained EMT who got on the course after 14 months (yes Im exceptional)

Just so you know OMAC is worse for politics and you'll be waiting longer than 3 years and I can say that with 100% confidence.

IRC cant say how long you'll wait but I had to wait 5 months for a uniform and only then I had bottoms and they still hadnt started the basic coursr for members in it a few months.

SJA always had politics also but that said I'm on way back to where I started

Somehow, I dont think any vol you join will keep you happy

And now some of the real answers start to trickle out, pity you couldn't be open and truthful at the start. Answers I never would have got unless I persisted. Also noted is the continued inability to answer questions without personal abuse.

Rob32

Francesco wrote: »

And now some of the real answers start to trickle out, pity you couldn't be open and truthful at the start. Answers I never would have got unless I persisted. Also noted is the continued inability to answer questions without personal abuse.

Here goes:

1.To become EMT 3-5+ yrs depending on ability/organisational procedure

2. Yes we drink tea, some even drink coffee!!!

3. Every organisation has good and bad people in them, same as any organisation, company etc

4. Your attitude is sh1te

5. Training is generally done on the basis of who does more duties, more experience etc

anything i missed?

carzony

so when I join the civil defence in september i'll learn nothing for the first year?

civdef

carzony wrote: »

so when I join the civil defence in september i'll learn nothing for the first year?

Basic tea drinking takes a minimumn of 14 months in CD, we're quite slow learners!

Seriously though, your first year normally comprises induction course, cardiac first responder, occupational first aid etc etc.

I'm beginning to thing this whole tread is a wind-up.

carzony

civdef wrote: »

Basic tea drinking takes a minimumn of 14 months in CD, we're quite slow learners!

Seriously though, your first year normally comprises induction course, cardiac first responder, occupational first aid etc etc.

I'm beginning to thing this whole tread is a wind-up.

problem is mate the civil defence is like a secret organisation. I found it very hard to find any basic information about what they actually do. The civil defence website just keeps freezing on me so it's hard to find these things out.


No wind up mate. I am dying to get involved in an organisation. I just want to know my efforts are worthwhile.

sgthighway

Go to the Order of Malta Ireland website for more information and you will see how secret we are ;-)

civdef

carzony wrote: »

No wind up mate. I am dying to get involved in an organisation. I just want to know my efforts are worthwhile.

Ah no, wasn't referring to your post, ask any questions you have and I or someone else will try answer.

ectoraige

I know I shouldn't...

The Civil Defence unit I'm in works as follows, I can't comment on any others.
Training is typically a two-hour weekly session running from October to April, then May-September is concentrated on covering events.

Training covers a wide range of skills including:

• First aid
• Radio communications
• Search Management
• Rescue techniques
• Navigation
• Pump drills
• Foot drill
• Risk Assessment
• Major Emergency Planning
• Welfare provision
• Food Safety
• Manual Handling
• Patient Handling

This is all covered in the 100 hours or so of routine training hours.
On top of that extra training sessions are held, usually at weekends for specific courses such as:

• Advanced driving
• Blue light driving
• EFR training
• EMT training
• Boat crew training

As far as first-aid training goes, I've been a member for three years and will be doing my EFR exams in October. In year one, I completed the PHECC CFR course, and did some other basic first-aid training. During the summer my first-aid role at events was as little more than an observer as the EFRs and EMTs typically take the lead in treating patients. It's a good introduction though as I would have had zero experience at that point.

In year two I was trained up to FETAC OFA level, which has been a benefit to me in work as well. In year two volunteers are issued with their full uniform, prior to that they are only loaned jackets as required.

This year I started the EFR course. There were exams held in May, but due to having three young children I was happy to wait until October for the exam. I should probably be studying for that instead of writing this post...

I'm not expecting to do the EMT course next year as, to be honest, I'd rather gain more experience as an EFR before going up another level.
I'd also like the opportunity to advance my expertise in other areas such as comms or search & rescue. The radio training we have received to date has been to the basic level of being able to operate on a radio net. Every member has to have this certification before they can be issued with a radio. More advanced training does cover establishing networks, and civil defence do possess mobile antennae units, unfortunately not in our unit though. Hopefully we'll see TETRA rolling out soon too.

So it is likely that it'll be year five before I do my EMT course. This doesn't seem like a slow progression to me as there is so much other training done as well, unlink the other vols Civil Defence is not purely an ambulance corps.

You also have to understand the practicalities involved. The time given by the limited number of instructors here is unreal. As well as training new EFRs, there are a number of EFRs who are recertifying this year. These are members who are not interested in doing the EMT course, but they still need to keep their skills up. For all the skills I listed above, we have instructors giving their time to deliver the courses. Most of them do more than one course so the amount of training that is delivered is unreal.

I see little evidence of "politics" in who gets to do what training. The one thing that I do know happened was when PHECC was established, training to their levels was prioritised in favour of the more experienced members. I see little political about this, when you've one member with a decade of pre-PHECC experience, it's natural that they received the certified training before a new volunteer. At this stage though the PHECC levels are embedded into the Civil Defence training structure.

I would expect that volunteers in other organisations would reach EMT level faster than me. That's because first-aid is only a part of the Civil Defence skillset, albeit the most visible.

carzony

civdef wrote: »

Ah no, wasn't referring to your post, ask any questions you have and I or someone else will try answer.

How long would it take to be allowed to drive for them? I'd love to get in the drivers seat:p.

I hear there is a lot more men than women that join?

What days would you typically expected to work?

civdef

How long it takes to drive depends on loads of factors - how many drivers are there already, what age you are, have you a steady head etc etc.
In this neck of the woods it's pretty much 50:50 gender wise.
Members are expected to attend weekly training on a very regular basis as there's just so much to cover. After that, you're expected to make a good effort to attend duties and events and to be available for call-outs, it's definitely recognised that people have other commitments and lives to live, but in general a good effort is expected.

Mycroft H

If you're committed and pick the right unit (last bit is very important) you could see EMT in 2 years in OMAC. If you come in as an EFR you could nearly jump onto a course in a year.

jamesdiver

carzony wrote: »

How long would it take to be allowed to drive for them? I'd love to get in the drivers seat:p.

I hear there is a lot more men than women that join?

What days would you typically expected to work?

Where are you based? Most of the units have a public fbook page. Make contact and have a chat with whoever runs the page. Should sort you out.

Sandals and Shorts

BX 19 wrote: »

If you're committed and pick the right unit (last bit is very important) you could see EMT in 2 years in OMAC. If you come in as an EFR you could nearly jump onto a course in a year.

That sounds a bit more straightforward, up front and structured. Exactly what I'm looking for. I'll pop down to my local unit and have a chat and see what they're like. Thanks.

Mycroft H

Sandals and Shorts wrote: »

That sounds a bit more straightforward, up front and structured. Exactly what I'm looking for. I'll pop down to my local unit and have a chat and see what they're like. Thanks.

Again, choose carefully. Some units are wedged with EMTs, especially some of the larger dublin ones. Chances of getting into an EMT course is slim, especially when there is a queue ahead of you.

Small country unit strapped for members is what you want. They'll have more need for higher clinical levels usually.

Sandals and Shorts

BX 19 wrote: »

Again, choose carefully. Some units are wedged with EMTs, especially some of the larger dublin ones. Chances of getting into an EMT course is slim, especially when there is a queue ahead of you.

Small country unit strapped for members is what you want. They'll have more need for higher clinical levels usually.

I'll have a talk with a few units and see, thanks.

seven_eleven

I know some of you might think 2 - 3 years is a long time, but its worth it if you put in the effort and are commited to the job.
You'll be far more experienced with basic first aid and EFR level stuff, and you'll get so much support on the voluntary EMT courses and are taught more than any private course provider will teach you.

Bear in mind that a lot of the voluntary EMT courses are several months long with a lot of aspects including online content, MCQ's, regular practice with your unit and placements.
As opposed to a 3 week long private one.

Wanting to become an EMT in the vollys is a long commitment. They wouldnt send you on a course unless you can show that you're willing to give back to the unit.

Sandals and Shorts

I don't think anyone doubts the level of commitment needed, but in return people like to see some structure and assurance for that voluntary commitment and where it's headed. If an organisation offers assurance to members it values and respects that voluntary commitment and will reward that commitment in some structured way, then they'll receive further commitment and loyalty in return. I don't think it should be some unknown or haphazard random process. Yes, it's a good thing to take an intensive 2 years of commitment to be considered for EMT to weed out the less able and committed, but I also believe the public don't deserve any less a level of training, competence, and qualification these days from all voluntary ambulance crews at public events. Aspiring to improve the minimum level of standard qualifications and training can only be a good thing in the long run. If a unit is over staffed with volunteers perhaps they should not be recruiting for a while.

Mycroft H

Sandals and Shorts wrote: »

I don't think anyone doubts the level of commitment needed, but in return people like to see some structure and assurance for that voluntary commitment and where it's headed. If an organisation offers assurance to members it values and respects that voluntary commitment and will reward that commitment in some structured way, then they'll receive further commitment and loyalty in return. I don't think it should be some unknown or haphazard random process. Yes, it's a good thing to take an intensive 2 years of commitment to be considered for EMT to weed out the less able and committed, but I also believe the public don't deserve any less a level of training, competence, and qualification these days from all voluntary ambulance crews at public events. Aspiring to improve the minimum level of standard qualifications and training can only be a good thing in the long run. If a unit is over staffed with volunteers perhaps they should not be recruiting for a while.

Hahah remember you're talking about a voluntary organisation where things that make sense don't usually happen. To many brass hats still around.






I do wholeheartedly agree with you however.

Sandals and Shorts

I know it's not a perfect world, but I'm sure there are some fairly good units out there with an attitude of equal opportunity, if I have a look around, I'm bound to find one.

carav10

Five years would be appropriate enough for someone with absolutely no background or knowledge of first aid, anatomy/physiology, pathologies etc maybe but if for example you've been an OFA for years using it as part of your outdoor activities, and have a good strong background of anatomy, pathologies, differential diagnosis etc, due to other studies, are fairly clued in with a strong interest, then no, I wouldn't be happy waiting 5yrs. I can see where the OP is coming from & also why he doesn't want to hang around waiting. What some people are thinking is arrogance by the OP is what I'm reading as a desire to progress & advance, nothing wrong with it. Five yrs for some people that might be grand for them, but others are well able to progress faster & there's nothing wrong with wanting to. Why shouldn't someone express a desire to advance quicker if they're more than able and more than willing to give the time back to the voluntary?

However OP, as mentioned above, a small unit with less EMTs but actively progressive is what you're looking for. Go to one training evening of any of the voluntaries you're considering and you'll get a vibe straight away that you'll either like or not.

carzony

Anyone got any official dates for the September recruitment? I keep ringing but they won't tell me