The Elephant in the room.

sim3620

lets do some quick math, give you a idea of the problem.
In the papers today,
400k passengers a day, revenue 600k
for arguments sake assume prepaid tickets are the same price as cash fares

The 400k use the bus 2 times a day, that works out at 75c per journey..
We know the minimum fare is €1.65 , thats a 90c difference to the average..

If all passengers pay €1.65 a journey, 2 times a day, that a daily revenue of €1,320,000.

The government gave CIE €278 million in subvention in 2012 http://www.dttas.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=603
Now this money is spread around all of CIE not just Dublin Bus

Lets just assume that this money only goes to pay for the free travel passes, (i know ,this is a rough and ready idea).

Approximately 1 million free travel pass holders, so thats €278 a year for unlimited travel on all types of transport, for a grand total of 76c per day or 38c per journey if 2 are made per day on Dublin bus.

For this 38c per day you can travel free across the country on trains, which would cost up to €50 each way.

Can you see the problem, the free travel pass scheme has grown to be the elephant in the room, if it is not addressed soon it will collapse, and those who genuine deserve it will loose it along side all those who should not have it.

There is no way a private operator would take over Dublin bus and carry people unlimited journeys for 76c per day.

Gatling

Elephant ??

Greedy unions and drivers

SandyfordGuy

subvention is.not for the free travel pass

there isseparate funding for that

Dravokivich

sim3620 wrote: »

Approximately 1 million free travel pass holders,

If they were all in Dublin, no one would pay to use the bus. It's part of the problem regarding incoming moneys, but I'm unsure if it's a focal point that needs to be addressed primarily.

foggy_lad

sim3620 wrote: »

lets do some quick math, give you a idea of the problem.
In the papers today,
400k passengers a day, revenue 600k
for arguments sake assume prepaid tickets are the same price as cash fares

The 400k use the bus 2 times a day, that works out at 75c per journey..
We know the minimum fare is €1.65 , thats a 90c difference to the average..

If all passengers pay €1.65 a journey, 2 times a day, that a daily revenue of €1,320,000.

The government gave CIE €278 million in subvention in 2012 http://www.dttas.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=603
Now this money is spread around all of CIE not just Dublin Bus

Lets just assume that this money only goes to pay for the free travel passes, (i know ,this is a rough and ready idea).

Approximately 1 million free travel pass holders, so thats €278 a year for unlimited travel on all types of transport, for a grand total of 76c per day or 38c per journey if 2 are made per day on Dublin bus.

For this 38c per day you can travel free across the country on trains, which would cost up to €50 each way.

Can you see the problem, the free travel pass scheme has grown to be the elephant in the room, if it is not addressed soon it will collapse, and those who genuine deserve it will loose it along side all those who should not have it.

There is no way a private operator would take over Dublin bus and carry people unlimited journeys for 76c per day.

How can anyone on the internet say who is or is not genuinely deserving of free travel?

spank_inferno

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can anyone on the internet say who is or is not genuinely deserving of free travel?

Who can say it then?

I think workers are just as entitled to free travel as the non-workers.

At the moment the users of CIE are paying for CIE twice.

foggy_lad

spank_inferno wrote: »

Who can say it then?

How about those civil servants and medical referees who decide if people meet the criteria for payments such as the blind pension or invalidity pension or any of several other payments which make one eligible to recieve a free travel pass.

Owryan

My issue with the FTP is that once someone is awarded Disability Allowance they are awarded the pass whether they need it or not.

For the record I have and use one. My opinion is that it should be given on a needs basis only and not free but only offer subsidised fares.

Gatling

Owryan wrote: »

My issue with the FTP is that once someone is awarded Disability Allowance they are awarded the pass whether they need it or not.

For the record I have and use one. My opinion is that it should be given on a needs basis only and not free but only offer subsidised fares.

Define needs only

foggy_lad

Owryan wrote: »

My issue with the FTP is that once someone is awarded Disability Allowance they are awarded the pass whether they need it or not.

For the record I have and use one. My opinion is that it should be given on a needs basis only and not free but only offer subsidised fares.

Who gets to decide the disabled persons needs? Loom at the madness in the UK at the moment where disabled people have their benifits cut because the agency involved decides against those in genuine need because they need to cut costs and so if a wheelchair user can walk a few metres on crutches even if that takes an hour or two they will have their payment cut as they are marked down as having higher level of mobility.

My main issue is that a small change to the requirements like a requirement to carry photo id(passport or age card only) along with your pass would eliminate 99% of fraudulant use but this move has never been considered.

Frank Black

sim3620 wrote: »

lets do some quick math, give you a idea of the problem.
In the papers today,
400k passengers a day, revenue 600k

The 400k use the bus 2 times a day, that works out at 75c per journey..

Is the 400k figure not passenger trips though?
In which case multipling the figure by 2, as you've done, would be incorrect.

Owryan

Gatling wrote: »

Define needs only

In my own case , I have have medical condition that doesnt affect my driving or require excessive travel for treatment yet I still have a pass .

I would consider only providing passes to those who fulfill certain needs, ie does their issue affect whether they can drive or not, is personal mobility affected, how frequent do they attend hospital/distance to and from hospital.

davidlacey

I think varadkar is the elephant in the room sitting back and watching this unfold while doing nothing about it while alan kelly chipping in with a few comments and no action, they dont want to face the problems and keep kicking the dublin bus empty piggy bank down the road

bazza1

davidlacey wrote: »

I think varadkar is the elephant in the room sitting back and watching this unfold while doing nothing about it while alan kelly chipping in with a few comments and no action, they dont want to face the problems and keep kicking the dublin bus empty piggy bank down the road

The Minister for Leo, Mr Varadakar, smilingly opened the new station in Oranmore, on a rail line that shows a 90% loss. The minister will not sanction the closing of this line or any other service. He, Mr Kelly and TDs in the west got this line opened and are now blaming IR for losing money on it due to no passengers. Similarly at DB. Reducing subvention, higher costs, increasing fuel costs should necessitate a cull in very unprofitable routes. BE are in a similar position. Over recent years, IE have reduced costs by 39% due to cost efficiencies, Voluntary severance and productivity changes. Subvention reductions and fuel increases have written that off, so back to square one. Not one service has been cut. The VS scheme has been reduced, making voluntary severance unappealing. Terms and emplyment conditions have been removed or decreased. Dont be so quick to disparage transport workers who are struggling to get by like everyone else in the country! I dont see many Rolls Royces in the car park...or many cars at all for that matter!

LXFlyer

bazza1 wrote: »

The Minister for Leo, Mr Varadakar, smilingly opened the new station in Oranmore, on a rail line that shows a 90% loss. The minister will not sanction the closing of this line or any other service. He, Mr Kelly and TDs in the west got this line opened and are now blaming IR for losing money on it due to no passengers. Similarly at DB. Reducing subvention, higher costs, increasing fuel costs should necessitate a cull in very unprofitable routes. BE are in a similar position. Over recent years, IE have reduced costs by 39% due to cost efficiencies, Voluntary severance and productivity changes. Subvention reductions and fuel increases have written that off, so back to square one. Not one service has been cut. The VS scheme has been reduced, making voluntary severance unappealing. Terms and emplyment conditions have been removed or decreased. Dont be so quick to disparage transport workers who are struggling to get by like everyone else in the country! I dont see many Rolls Royces in the car park...or many cars at all for that matter!

Oranmore is on the line between Athenry and Galway - that section of line is not the one that is showing the loss. That is the line between Athenry and Ennis.

Athenry/Galway performs more than adequately.

Services to Waterford and Sligo have been cut, as have the number of trains operating between Limerick and Waterford, and Limerick and Galway, and between Connolly and Arklow. ICRs are operating between Dublin and Cork, capacity on the DART has been cut back also. So incorrect to say that services have not changed.

mickydoomsux

Owryan wrote: »

In my own case , I have have medical condition that doesnt affect my driving or require excessive travel for treatment yet I still have a pass .

I would consider only providing passes to those who fulfill certain needs, ie does their issue affect whether they can drive or not, is personal mobility affected, how frequent do they attend hospital/distance to and from hospital.

Nah, the DSP just take the easy way out of chucking them out to everyone.

lucernarian

I wouldn't say nothing has been cut, in the case of Sligo there are definitely fewer trains running and having 4-car DARTs running is as good as a cut if they're full to bursting!

sabat

The almost complete absence of the usual "heads" around the city over the last couple of days is IMO definitive proof that amongst a certain demographic the free travel pass has effectively become a subsidy towards the illegal drug trade. Why bother trying to locate and travel to your customers when they're ferried into your marketplace courtesy of the taxpayer and given an extra €5+ saved on fares to spend on your goods?

Grandeeod

sabat wrote: »

The almost complete absence of the usual "heads" around the city over the last couple of days is IMO definitive proof that amongst a certain demographic the free travel pass has effectively become a subsidy towards the illegal drug trade. Why bother trying to locate and travel to your customers when they're ferried into your marketplace courtesy of the taxpayer and given an extra €5+ saved on fares to spend on your goods?

Interesting observation. I'd love to think you are right, but I can only go on what you say as I'm no longer a regular visitor to the city centre. Anyone else notice a downturn in undesirable drug abusers while the bus strike was on?

hfallada

Its funny how the papers keep quoting FF and FG but not a word from labour. Its nice to see they still protect the interest of unions and its members and not that of the tax payer.

I seriously hope the Government doesnt cave in with the bus drivers, as I think this is the litmus test of potential cuts in the future. The ESB will probably decide whether to go on strike depending the outcome of this strike. The Government must not give into unions every demand

Victor

sim3620 wrote: »

lets do some quick math, give you a idea of the problem.
In the papers today,
400k passengers a day, revenue 600k
for arguments sake assume prepaid tickets are the same price as cash fares

The 400k use the bus 2 times a day, that works out at 75c per journey..
We know the minimum fare is €1.65 , thats a 90c difference to the average..

If all passengers pay €1.65 a journey, 2 times a day, that a daily revenue of €1,320,000.

The government gave CIE €278 million in subvention in 2012 http://www.dttas.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=603
Now this money is spread around all of CIE not just Dublin Bus

Lets just assume that this money only goes to pay for the free travel passes, (i know ,this is a rough and ready idea).

Approximately 1 million free travel pass holders, so thats €278 a year for unlimited travel on all types of transport, for a grand total of 76c per day or 38c per journey if 2 are made per day on Dublin bus.

For this 38c per day you can travel free across the country on trains, which would cost up to €50 each way.

Can you see the problem, the free travel pass scheme has grown to be the elephant in the room, if it is not addressed soon it will collapse, and those who genuine deserve it will loose it along side all those who should not have it.

There is no way a private operator would take over Dublin bus and carry people unlimited journeys for 76c per day.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Reports/Annual-Reports/

Revenue in 2012 was €191,054,000 - this includes the amount from the Department for Social Protection for the free travel scheme and commercial activities (private hires, Nitelink, etc.). Total passenger journeys for 2012 amounted to 115.2 million. That equates to an average fare of €1.66. While there would have been some income from advertising, private subventions (property developers, shopping centres, employers, etc. paying them to operate routes to their sites), it is going to be fairly modest.

The Public Service Obligation payment was €69,435,000 for 2012.

Peppa Pig

sim3620 wrote: »

lets do some quick math, give you a idea of the problem.
In the papers today,
400k passengers a day, revenue 600k

It's €600k that DB did not take in yesterday.
What they did not lose was the revenue from the monthly/annual ticket holders who have to make up a substantial amount of the journeys.
Unless you know the that figure you cannot get an average price per journey.

devnull

Not really, since if you have a rambler they're non consecutive days so therefore they do lose the revenue since the ticket lasts a day longer.

Dravokivich

devnull wrote: »

Not really, since if you have a rambler they're non consecutive days so therefore they do lose the revenue since the ticket lasts a day longer.

I think they're referring to Taxsavers, which would be based within a period.

On a bus as i write this - why and how is it that every young tracksuit wearing ne'er do well type of person seems to jump on for free with a bus pass?

I seriously do not get it... What reason is it that they even have a pass? Makes me sick when i'm paying such a premium to use the bloody bus.

munchkin_utd

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

On a bus as i write this - why and how is it that every young tracksuit wearing ne'er do well type of person seems to jump on for free with a bus pass?

I seriously do not get it... What reason is it that they even have a pass? Makes me sick when i'm paying such a premium to use the bloody bus.

actually probably flashing their medical card that they also get for free, because folks that work and pay taxes dont get sick and would never need to see a GP, so obviously you dont need it but they would.

Losty Dublin

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

On a bus as i write this - why and how is it that every young tracksuit wearing ne'er do well type of person seems to jump on for free with a bus pass?

I seriously do not get it... What reason is it that they even have a pass? Makes me sick when i'm paying such a premium to use the bloody bus.

I can go one better.

I saw a girl in her 20's board a 27 bus this morning flashing her DSP pass to get her free trip into town. She was wearing an Eddie Rockets managers uniform.

Infini

Well from what I heard from one of the lads in work apparently the Unions brought up the issue about the free travel scheme abuse with both the Dept of Finance and Dept of Social and family affairs. Finance told them to mind their own buisness apparently though the social welfare lads later turned around and said they raised a fair point and were gonna look into it.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I can go one better.

I saw a girl in her 20's board a 27 bus this morning flashing her DSP pass to get her free trip into town. She was wearing an Eddie Rockets managers uniform.

So whats the story? Are they being copied and passed around? Yer one got on in coolock, right? Are we to assume that this type of fraud is more prevelant in working class areas? I.e. A family member or mate gets one and it's just copied and passed around.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So whats the story? Are they being copied and passed around? Yer one got on in coolock, right? Are we to assume that this type of fraud is more prevelant in working class areas? I.e. A family member or mate gets one and it's just copied and passed around.

It wasn't in Coolock but to be honest the area isn't relevant as it's happening everywhere. Another morning I saw a woman flash a pass wearing a HSE embossed tunic while 2 months ago in Sandyford I saw a man wearing a Hi Viz work jacket carrying a hard hat and tool box get onto an 11, again two more brazen cases of use.

In short, 4 things seem to be happening.

1. Passes are forged and then used by passengers.
2. Passes are passed around between friends and family members. Passes of dead people commonly outlive their supposed bearers in this guise.
3. Passes are issued on a short term basis and either not recalled back or the pass are not returned upon change of circumstances.
4. Passengers board and plain don't show a pass to the driver/inspector/ticket checker.

In all cases, public transport staff are routinely abused and even attacked for checking and confiscating misused or forged passes. Even then, confiscated passes are replaced or returned to their "rightful" owner by the DSPs so vetting the passes is mere lip service.

foggy_lad

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Do you or anyone else commenting here know for a fact that this woman was not issued a free travel pass for her own use? Is it not possible that she works part time and spends the rest of her days caring for a parent or elderly relative? Carers are issued with free travel passes including those who work for the new companies which make millions providing "carers" for the HSE.

bumper234

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can anyone on the internet say who is or is not genuinely deserving of free travel?

Simple.

Pensioners = entitled

Low life junkies who have never worked a day in their lives = NOT entitled.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It wasn't in Coolock but to be honest the area isn't relevant as it's happening everywhere. Another morning I saw a woman flash a pass wearing a HSE embossed tunic while 2 months ago in Sandyford I saw a man wearing a Hi Viz work jacket carrying a hard hat and tool box get onto an 11, again two more brazen cases of use.

In short, 4 things seem to be happening.

1. Passes are forged and then used by passengers.
2. Passes are passed around between friends and family members. Passes of dead people commonly outlive their supposed bearers in this guise.
3. Passes are issued on a short term basis and either not recalled back or the pass are not returned upon change of circumstances.
4. Passengers board and plain don't show a pass to the driver/inspector/ticket checker.

In all cases, public transport staff are routinely abused and even attacked for checking and confiscating misused or forged passes. Even then, confiscated passes are replaced or returned to their "rightful" owner by the DSPs so vetting the passes is mere lip service.

The easiest and cheapest way to eliminate all these abuses is to change the rules slightly to require all holders to produce a passport or Garda age card with their travel pass. Anything else takes too much time and costs a lot more than this easy to implement change. for the cases where no pass is shown well that is an issue for the transport operator to address with their staff as it is up to them to regulate the boarding of the vehicle!

bumper234

Grandeeod wrote: »

Interesting observation. I'd love to think you are right, but I can only go on what you say as I'm no longer a regular visitor to the city centre. Anyone else notice a downturn in undesirable drug abusers while the bus strike was on?

I mentioned this on Tuesday in the Dublin bus thread. Definitely a LOT less junkies around the city center that day. Tuesday was business as usual.

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

The easiest and cheapest way to eliminate all these abuses is to change the rules slightly to require all holders to produce a passport or Garda age card with their travel pass. Anything else takes too much time and costs a lot more than this easy to implement change. for the cases where no pass is shown well that is an issue for the transport operator to address with their staff as it is up to them to regulate the boarding of the vehicle!

Why not just give everyone a leap card type pass that can be cancelled electronically? It has to end, puts me right off even using the bus.

dowlingm

Having a second form of ID doesn't solve the problem of people who think rules like that don't apply to them (still less the tap the pocket types) and drivers who feel management won't backstop them if any hassle arises from them upping their game in the checking area.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

How can anyone on the internet say who is or is not genuinely deserving of free travel?

It's very simple. No one should be entitled to free travel, no one. Heavily subsidised token amount, sure, but not free.

Dravokivich

dowlingm wrote: »

Having a second form of ID doesn't solve the problem of people who think rules like that don't apply to them (still less the tap the pocket types) and drivers who feel management won't backstop them if any hassle arises from them upping their game in the checking area.

There were no issues with drivers rejecting the passenger, or with inspectors confiscating conterfeit or miss used travel passes. They had no support from those who distrubuted the passes.

bk

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's very simple. No one should be entitled to free travel, no one. Heavily subsidised token amount, sure, but not free.

I agree totally, the whole scheme should be scrapped and replaced by quarter fares for old age pensioners like in most EU countries.

Make it so that the reduced fare can only be gotten with a leap based ticket with photo id on it.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Having a second form of ID doesn't solve the problem of people who think rules like that don't apply to them (still less the tap the pocket types) and drivers who feel management won't backstop them if any hassle arises from them upping their game in the checking area.

At the end of the day if drivers allow people board without a ticket or without checking their pass if they have suspicions they are to blame for any losses arising from that misuse as they are allowing it. BUT If the drivers and checkers are not being supported by management in their efforts to check passes then it is no longer the drivers issue as any losses are caused by managements failure to allow proper checking of validity of travel passes.

The rules must apply across the board for all pass holders just as all yearly/monthly/weekly ticket holders must have their photo id card and all others must have the correct ticket.

Has any driver/checker looked at people with yearly/taxsaver tickets and wondered how they got those tickets? do they ask where they work that enables them to get such tickets? why should the same drivers/checkers wonder how some seemingly able bodied people have free travel?

Loads of able bodied "carers" have free travel passes and there are tens of thousands(and more) of carers considering that a parent with a disabled child or adult child will be their carer or those with elderly parents/relatives that they look after can be paid carers allowance and while they may get no payment due to means tested payments they will still get the free travel and will usually also have a disabled parking card to use in their large SUV in the disabled spaces in the local Tesco.

Requiring a passport or Age Card will eliminate most fraudulent use of the pass as those using passes of deceased persons will not be able to any more.

LeinsterDub

There are new biometric Social Security Cards on the way, put the leap functionality on this and give the inspector access to it.

OldNotWIse

bumper234 wrote: »

Simple.

Pensioners = entitled

Low life junkies who have never worked a day in their lives = NOT entitled.

Why do so many of them have them? I know I'll get shot for asking but there are a serious amount of them with free travel passes...

bumper234

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Why do so many of them have them? I know I'll get shot for asking but there are a serious amount of them with free travel passes...

It's disgraceful to see how many saunter on the bus with them then straight upstairs for a smoke and nothing said or done apart from the annoying automated announcement that smoking is illegal. Have never seen or heard of anyone getting done for this.

Dravokivich

foggy_lad wrote: »

At the end of the day if drivers allow people board without a ticket or without checking their pass if they have suspicions they are to blame for any losses arising from that misuse as they are allowing it. BUT If the drivers and checkers are not being supported by management in their efforts to check passes then it is no longer the drivers issue as any losses are caused by managements failure to allow proper checking of validity of travel passes.

The problem needs to be addressed with those who issue the passes. Drivers and Inspectors act on it when they can, but there's very little they are able to do if new passes just get printed back out again and again.

dowlingm

Dravokivich wrote: »

There were no issues with drivers rejecting the passenger, or with inspectors confiscating conterfeit or miss used travel passes. They had no support from those who distrubuted the passes.

Fair point.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bumper234

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well it's a system that needs to be looked at because it's for sure being abused.

Gatling

There already looking into it ,

bumper234

Gatling wrote: »

There already looking into it ,

So some action sometime around 2037:rolleyes: