Nationalism.

Karl Stein

Bannasidhe wrote: »

have you never met an Irish Protestant who was treated as 'foreign' either - or heard Graham Norton speak of how he was made to feel less than 'proper' Irish when he was growing up in Bandon?

I'm familiar with both Catholics and Protestants in the area and, anecdotally at least, the feeling that 'they're different' isn't just as a result of Catholics treating Protestants differently but Protestants considering themselves different too.

Really, using the experiences of a Protestant gay man growing up in rural Ireland in the 70's and 80's to make a point about not feeling welcome in his community and attributing it to nationalism is rather convenient.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

Where did I say that? As always you seem to love putting words in my mouth. It exists in isolation of course but in the mainstream no.



The general consensus of what? That you can only be a true Australian if you are of the 'Anglo-Celtic' background? Now that is absurd! Maybe you lived here in the 70's or 80's but it isn't like that now and I work in one of the most multi cultural industries here. You love antidotal evidence.



Well done, as I said they are a minority but you seem to subscribe the notion that their belief system is of the majority which we both know is not true so bringing them up is a poor poor argument against mainstream nationalism which you are arguing.



Extreme nationalism is what you are describing in which I would agree with you if it ended there BUT it was YOU who stated that mainstream society would think that they are somehow better or favoured by god over their neighbour. You have not explained that one at all, instead you have gone off on a tirade about extreme right wing nationalism trying to cover your tracks. Throw as much **** and hope some sticks is the motto.



Golden Dawns vote decreased in the last election actually.




...Ah OK, nationalism is the bain of human society, is at fault for most if not all of the worlds ills and should be stamped out asap. I got the memo and will sing the internationale from now on in. Thank You.



Interesting you bring up North Korea as they probably have no concept on 'nationality' like we would have, they only have a concept of being comrades under the protection of their supreme ruler. Communism doesn't really do nationalism in the same way as Fascists, but their ideology sure does kill as many if not more.




If it were just a matter of blood then why can anyone who comes to Ireland to live, work for a number of years gain Irish citizenship. I will be able to give an Australian passport to my children. I don't really see the problem with that. Your problem is with the nation state i feel.




Yes, you are right because Graham Norton says so. Never mind the fact he now lives around the same area most of the year. Have you ever thought that I might be an Irish Protestant by way? Or do you assume that I am Catholic? Why do you assume I am a Catholic? I think you have fell into your own trap there.



Do you try and Godwin all threads? But I am running out of straw for you. Germany.. blood lines... ethnicity.... 1930..... Where is my Glenn Beck chalkboard!



Oh so its extreme nationalism now? First I thought it was nationalism, then only ethnic nationalism, then purely race, blood and ethnicity now its extreme nationalism you have a problem with. What next, Humans?



I think you enjoyed that tirade!

So I think we can agree that there are extreme elements that may subscrine to what you outlined.


As I mentioned the majority of society do not subscribe to this notion nor would the default definition nationalism reference an inbuilt favouritism or imperial supremacist outlook in general. So my point still stands

What you are doing is referencing the more extreme examples of nationalism and using that selection to justify your statement that nationalism means that one is 'favoured' by God or nature. Can one only be a nationalist if they must think they are favoured

...and breathe Jank - you must be hyperventilating after all of that hyperbolic nonsense. I imagine the air supply must be limited in the bubble you appear to live in where ethnically based nationalism is not on the rise in Europe and 'Anglo-Celt' Australians view the relevantly recent immigrants from Mediterranean countries as true true blue Aussies so there is no need for government sponsered anti-racism websites (http://www.racismnoway.com.au/teaching-resources/factsheets/56.html) nor have 'Wop' actors carved a career out of exploring how un-Australian they are considered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Giannopoulos#Film_career). BTW - WOG BOY which explores this whole area was released in 2000 and is the 14th highest grossing Australian film of all time. It would appear to have struck a cord....

The only thing I can assume about you jank is that you never let the facts get in the way of your rants or the charter in the way of your thinely disguised personal digs - and you can write that on your Glenn Beck chalkboard.

Humans? Nothing special about humans apart from our capacity for mindless destruction and ability to have 'faith' in utter rubbish.

Michael Nugent

jank wrote: »

So answer me this. How does human society rule itself if we do not have the concept of a nation state?

Through a combination of democratic and interdependent civic states, that treat all of their citizens equally before the law regardless of their nationality, and with governmental decisions being taken either at a local level, a state level or an interstate level depending on which is most appropriate.

There were times when people would have asked (and indeed some still do) how does human society rule itself if we do not have the concept of a god or a king. I believe that the nation state will eventually be seen to be a similar anachronism.

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

...and breathe Jank - you must be hyperventilating after all of that hyperbolic nonsense. I imagine the air supply must be limited in the bubble you appear to live in where ethnically based nationalism is not on the rise in Europe and 'Anglo-Celt' Australians view the relevantly recent immigrants from Mediterranean countries as true true blue Aussies so there is no need for government sponsered anti-racism websites (http://www.racismnoway.com.au/teaching-resources/factsheets/56.html) nor have 'Wop' actors carved a career out of exploring how un-Australian they are considered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Giannopoulos#Film_career). BTW - WOG BOY which explores this whole area was released in 2000 and is the 14th highest grossing Australian film of all time. It would appear to have struck a cord....

The only thing I can assume about you jank is that you never let the facts get in the way of your rants or the charter in the way of your thinely disguised personal digs - and you can write that on your Glenn Beck chalkboard.

Humans? Nothing special about humans apart from our capacity for mindless destruction and ability to have 'faith' in utter rubbish.

Still after all your words and writing I have no idea what your core point is except that "nationalism is bad" and you prove it by pointing at some right wing extremists and a few nut jobs that nobody in main stream society identifies with. Now if you said extreme nationalism is bad I would agree with you as would many others but I think you backed yourself in a corner and have come out all guns blazing hoping others will go for cover.

What I find interesting that you find a Australian born Greek comedian who does a comedy show about Wogs i.e. himself, to be a measure of how racist the country is. People take the piss out of themselves all the time with satire, Pat Short is an example of this in Ireland with his paddywahckery. Is that racist? I dont think one can quantify how racist a country is based on the box office receipts of a movie. Are you trying to say that?

Your view of Australia is that from the 60's and dare I say it borders on reverse racism and a cliched stereotype. That level of racism that was there in the past is not there anymore in mainstream society. Its a hell of a lot more diverse and accepting in my experience than Ireland. Nobody really cares where I come from, what school I went to, who I know or what area of the city/county i was born in once I can do the job. I work in an office that is comprised of about 25% 'true blue Aussies' as you would put it. My other roles were similar.

The stats are for all to see. About 25% of Australians are born over seas, with a massive 40% of Sydney siders born overseas which begs the question what is a true blue Aussie? Irish people have been feed a diet of Home and Away and Alf Stewart with his 'flaming mongrel'. I hate to break it you but that is a TV show and its not real, well not anymore at least.

Check out Jen Kwok, I think you need cheering up.

How terribly racist!!!

Maybe I should leave you with a quote from 'Wog Boy' himself.

Yeah Australia has some racists in it, some bigots, some corrupt officials, some bad crims & some real embarrassing stuff in it's past BUT it's also the country that gave my parents & millions of others a second chance at life. It's a beautiful, honest country with a heart of gold. Time for each one of us to look deep within & ask "How can I make it even better"

https://www.facebook.com/nickg1/posts/10151626924392072

Mardy Bum

jank wrote: »

Still after all your words and writing I have no idea what your core point is except that "nationalism is bad" and you prove it by pointing at some right wing extremists and a few nut jobs that nobody in main stream society identifies with.

I think the main point is that nationalism is a social construct which is inherently exclusionary.

jank

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Through a combination of democratic and interdependent civic states, that treat all of their citizens equally before the law regardless of their nationality, and with governmental decisions being taken either at a local level, a state level or an interstate level depending on which is most appropriate.

There were times when people would have asked (and indeed some still do) how does human society rule itself if we do not have the concept of a god or a king. I believe that the nation state will eventually be seen to be a similar anachronism.

In the truest sense this has been tried already. It was called the U.S.S.R.
There seems to be another attempt to try this again with the European Union but damm those Germans, they won't give us free money, so it may all go Pete Tong. Interestingly enough Capitalism and Globalisation is bringing us closer to such a world with the freedom of movement in terms of human capital, products and services but I know those words are not the most welcome.

There may be a time where we live in such a utopian world (I hope) but you can put that utopian idea into the 'World peace' and 'No Poverty' time vault for a long long time.

Frank Lee Midere

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Through a combination of democratic and interdependent civic states, that treat all of their citizens equally before the law regardless of their nationality, and with governmental decisions being taken either at a local level, a state level or an interstate level depending on which is most appropriate.

There were times when people would have asked (and indeed some still do) how does human society rule itself if we do not have the concept of a god or a king. I believe that the nation state will eventually be seen to be a similar anachronism.

When Islam takes over? Universalism is generally a cloaked form of imperialism. If you want local states to have their own laws, and cultures then that is what we have, if you want some kind of universalism don't assume that it will be western liberalism. Otherwise borders protect cultures.

And it's not looking like nationalism is on the wane. The EU is largely disliked, Yugoslavia is no longer with us, Soviet man is a historical reference. And for that matter I don't see the British Empire either. Even the UK is under threat.

Anti-nationalism is merely a faddish ideology for pseuds. The nation state is stable, multinational states are not.

jank

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I think the main point is that nationalism is a social construct which is inherently exclusionary.

Exclusionary based on what? That they do not have the same passport? I am not entitled to an American passport, so I should feel inferior and excluded or should I feel superior that I have an irish passport? Maybe both at the same time?

The same could be said of anything if that is the case. Being in a relationship with another person (your excluding the entire world but your other half) to having a job with a certain company of department (you are excluding everyone else but your work colleagues ).

At the end of the day we are human, for 90% of people that is enough.

Frank Lee Midere

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I think the main point is that nationalism is a social construct which is inherently exclusionary.

It seems to be a stronger "social construction" than international or mutinational states. Furthermore Britain has had 200 years to socially construct "Britishness" but a good percentage of the Scottish seem to have rejected that, as we did a while back. So how come some "social constructions" work and others don't?

Mardy Bum

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

It seems to be a stronger "social construction" than international or mutinational states. Furthermore Britain has had 200 years to socially construct "Britishness" but a good percentage of the Scottish seem to have rejected that, as we did a while back. So how come some "social constructions" work and others don't?

Indeed similar to religion's indefatigable grip across the world; In group out group behaviour.

Karl Stein

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Anti-nationalism is merely a faddish ideology for pseuds.

Yeh. There's definitely a stench of of being above all that nonsense round these parts.

I wonder how the same people would feel if the borders fell and hundreds of thousands of graduates from India flooded into to compete for jobs.

A la carte nationalism anyone?

Frank Lee Midere

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Indeed similar to religion's indefatigable grip across the world.

Good. Glad we're back to real people. Good luck with having any world wide state being a western liberal state though.

Btw your opposition to religion is itself tribalism. It's clear that hostility to religion has risen in the West in the last decade, the honest anti-Islam of Fox News and the dishonest hate all religions of the left.

Atheism is correct - there is no God - but for most of the world belief is very important. Any world government which over ran local particularisms would be an extremely religious government.

Bannasidhe

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Yeh. There's definitely a stench of of being above all that nonsense round these parts.

I wonder how the same people would feel if the borders fell and hundreds of thousands of graduates from India flooded into to compete for jobs.

A la carte nationalism anyone?

Nearly as bad as Indians felt when white Europeans flooded into the subcontinent and said 'this is all ours now' I imagine.

As a matter of interest - why did you choose India? Why not hundreds of graduates from say, England? Or Sweden?

robindch

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Btw your opposition to religion is itself tribalism. It's clear that hostility to religion has risen in the West in the last decade, the honest anti-Islam of Fox News and the dishonest hate all religions of the left.

There's so much fail in those two sentences that the rest of this thread could be taken up in trying to sort it all out.

Mardy Bum

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Good. Glad we're back to real people. Good luck with having any world wide state being a western liberal state though.

Btw your opposition to religion is itself tribalism. It's clear that hostility to religion has risen in the West in the last decade, the honest anti-Islam of Fox News and the dishonest hate all religions of the left.

Atheism is correct - there is no God - but for most of the world belief is very important. Any world government which over ran local particularisms would be an extremely religious government.

You made a point that nationalism has been a very strong construct in the past and now in its consumerist form it will probably continue to be due to our in group out group behaviours and I agree. Similarly religion has been a very strong construct due to this instinct.
My opposition to religion is when it encroaches on my liberties.
Fox News are in no way honest either. See Reza Aslam interview.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

Still after all your words and writing I have no idea what your core point is except that "nationalism is bad" and you prove it by pointing at some right wing extremists and a few nut jobs that nobody in main stream society identifies with. Now if you said extreme nationalism is bad I would agree with you as would many others but I think you backed yourself in a corner and have come out all guns blazing hoping others will go for cover.

What I find interesting that you find a Australian born Greek comedian who does a comedy show about Wogs i.e. himself, to be a measure of how racist the country is. People take the piss out of themselves all the time with satire, Pat Short is an example of this in Ireland with his paddywahckery. Is that racist? I dont think one can quantify how racist a country is based on the box office receipts of a movie. Are you trying to say that?

Your view of Australia is that from the 60's and dare I say it borders on reverse racism and a cliched stereotype. That level of racism that was there in the past is not there anymore in mainstream society. Its a hell of a lot more diverse and accepting in my experience than Ireland. Nobody really cares where I come from, what school I went to, who I know or what area of the city/county i was born in once I can do the job. I work in an office that is comprised of about 25% 'true blue Aussies' as you would put it. My other roles were similar.

The stats are for all to see. About 25% of Australians are born over seas, with a massive 40% of Sydney siders born overseas which begs the question what is a true blue Aussie? Irish people have been feed a diet of Home and Away and Alf Stewart with his 'flaming mongrel'. I hate to break it you but that is a TV show and its not real, well not anymore at least.

Check out Jen Kwok, I think you need cheering up.

How terribly racist!!!

Maybe I should leave you with a quote from 'Wog Boy' himself.


https://www.facebook.com/nickg1/posts/10151626924392072

1960s Australia under the White's Only immigration policy which South Africa used as inspiration for Apartheid - no Idea what it was like to live there as I was a wee girl growing up in Cork at the time.

Australia of this century I am very familiar what with me having a permanent visa and all with as is Professor Kevin Dunn from the University of Western Sydney who in 2008 had a bit of a looksee at the issue of race in Australia

New research suggests that one in 10 Australians is a racial supremacist.

Professor Dunn says New South Wales, where 47 per cent say some ethnic groups do not belong, registered as the most racist state.

"About 45 per cent of Australians do identify groups who they think don't belong in Australia," he said.


...Professor Dunn interviewed more than 12,000 people over almost a decade.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-10-01/race-relations-still-struggle-in-lucky-country/527278

I hope those Indian graduates referred to by a another poster don't 'flood' the Melbourne area as apparently they are not particularly welcome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_violence_in_Australia#Attacks_against_Indian_students

Once again I have provided examples and citations - or guns blazing as you put it - you have failed to provide any evidence of any kind that I am incorrect but instead resort to hyperbole - I don't think you understand how this 'discussion' thing works... implying I suffer from reverse racism is not debating either.

Let me simplify my position for you - I believe that Any concept or construct which states that A is 'better' than B because of religion, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation or national identity is absurd.

I am Irish and I am proud of that - do I think this makes me 'better' than anyone else - absolutely not. Do I think 'my country right or wrong' - absolutely not.

Do some Irish people believe it makes them better yes they do

The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) received 27 serious incidents of racism over the first seven months of this year, but believes many more go unreported.
A sinister development since the start of the year has been the emergence of the use of symbols and language associated with right-wing extremism.

The ICI said it had become aware of the posting of an Irish flag with a swastika, the defacing of a playground with graffiti related to the Ku Klux Klan, and a letter posted on an individual’s car with references to white supremacists.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-racist-incident-reported-each-week-207802.html

That is absurd.

Now, do try and retort with some evidence rather than the usual rhetoric.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nearly as bad as Indians felt when white Europeans flooded into the subcontinent and said 'this is all ours now' I imagine.

As a matter of interest - why did you choose India? Why not hundreds of graduates from say, England? Or Sweden?

...because hundreds of thousands sounds scarier than a few hundred?

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

...because hundreds of thousands sounds scarier than a few hundred?

Does hundreds of thousands of Indians sound scarier than hundreds of thousands of Swedes?

Karl Stein

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As a matter of interest - why did you choose India? Why not hundreds of graduates from say, England? Or Sweden?

Graduates can already travel between EU states and the salaries, terms and conditions probably don't vary hugely.

I chose India because graduates are plentiful and their standard of living would improve markedly.

Why the interest?

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Does hundreds of thousands of Indians sound scarier than hundreds of thousands of Swedes?

The Swedes sound far scarier to me, what with my perception of them as stereotypical rule-mongers......and all that blond hair? Tis enough to make me stand up for closing the borders altogether :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Graduates can already travel between EU states and the salaries, terms and conditions probably don't vary hugely.

I chose India because graduates are plentiful and their standard of living would improved markedly.

Why the interest?

Most Indian graduates I know have excellent standards of living as they tend to come from professional and well-off backgrounds- unlike many graduates in the U.S. who are saddled with huge debts - would you have an issue with them 'flooding' us?

claypigeon777

God has a poor track record.



Ivan's neck will surely be crushed under our jackboots!



Our economy can never fail!



The American satans can never invade us!

Karl Stein

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Most Indian graduates I know have excellent standards of living as they tend to come from professional and well-off backgrounds- unlike many graduates in the U.S. who are saddled with huge debts - would you have an issue with them 'flooding' us?

In the current climate I think immigration should be targeted for sectors where shortages are and where greater competition would drive down the costs of services for the public. I care not where the immigrants come from. That's a personal view.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Does hundreds of thousands of Indians sound scarier than hundreds of thousands of Swedes?

....you couldn't have hundreds of thousands of swedes. If you're trying to imply this person is racist, I can tell you now he isn't.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

....you couldn't have hundreds of thousands of swedes. If you're trying to imply this person is racist, I can tell you now he isn't.

Just wondering why he picked India as an example is all.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Just wondering why he picked India as an example is all.

Sounds suspiciously like dog-whistle politics to me, but then again, I'm a dreadfully suspicious sort.

Nodin

....India has a massive population....that's as deep as it gets I'd imagine. He's not a racist and has torn into them in the past.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

....India has a massive population....that's as deep as it gets I'd imagine. He's not a racist and has torn into them in the past.

Yes, I have seen and supported him in the past when he has torn in - which is one of the reasons I wondered why he picked India.

Karl Stein

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, I have seen and supported him in the past when he has torn in - which is one of the reasons I wondered why he picked India.

You're fighting phantoms. I chose India off the top of my head for no other reason than it has lots of ambitious graduates - absolutely nothing to do with skin colour or 'race' or nationality.

As for the accusations of dog-whistle politics - well that's utter bollocks to be frank.

Bannasidhe

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

You're fighting phantoms. I chose India off the top of my head for no other reason than it has lots of ambitious graduates - absolutely nothing to do with skin colour or 'race' or nationality.

As for the accusations of dog-whistle politics - well that's utter bollocks to be frank.

Fair enough - I was only asking. I am sure you would do the same.

nagirrac

Bannasidhe wrote: »

1960s Australia under the White's Only immigration policy which South Africa used as inspiration for Apartheid

Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this as I have never encountered this hypothesis before?. Racial segregation was practiced in most colonies long before the Australian immigration policy you are citing. Dutch and/or British colonial racists were surely the "inspiration" for racial segregation, and not just in South Africa. The evidence seems to suggest Australian immigration policy of 1901 was designed to keep out cheap labor, so it was more economic protectionism rather than overt racism.

Bannasidhe

nagirrac wrote: »

Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this as I have never encountered this hypothesis before?. Racial segregation was practiced in most colonies long before the Australian immigration policy you are citing. Dutch and/or British colonial racists were surely the "inspiration" for racial segregation, and not just in South Africa. The evidence seems to suggest Australian immigration policy of 1901 was designed to keep out cheap labor, so it was more economic protectionism rather than overt racism.

Not to hand as it is all in my office sorry - you are correct to say that Dutch/British law was the primary source for SA laws but Apartheid itself was influenced by Australia's White's Only - a fact that SA politicos loved to sling at the Oz Anti-Apartheid movement. I tried to see if I could remotely access various scholarly articles on it but can't gain access to my dept's server as I am on OH's laptop (dog ate my charger last night) which it won't recognise.
Will see if I can get in tomorrow when I have my own laptop back.

robindch

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

As for the accusations of dog-whistle politics - well that's utter bollocks to be frank.

Good to hear. If you want to avoid the suspicion, you should probably choose your examples with more care - some posters here are old enough to remember things like Mind Your Language.

Karl Stein

robindch wrote: »

Good to hear. If you want to avoid the suspicion, you should probably choose your examples with more care - some posters here are old enough to remember things like Mind Your Language.

I'm not familiar with that show.

I think people's suspicions say more about them than me tbh.

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nearly as bad as Indians felt when white Europeans flooded into the subcontinent and said 'this is all ours now' I imagine.

I think people are deliberately confusing nationalism with imperialism and colonialism in trying to make very lose points. The concept of a nation state is a very new one in human history.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

....India has a massive population....that's as deep as it gets I'd imagine. He's not a racist and has torn into them in the past.

Doesnt stop people from making acusations though in an effort to defame his/her opinion. Read my sig.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Most Indian graduates I know have excellent standards of living as they tend to come from professional and well-off backgrounds- unlike many graduates in the U.S. who are saddled with huge debts - would you have an issue with them 'flooding' us?

Yes, that is why hundreds of thousands of Europeans/Americans/'Blue blooded' Australians are queueing up to get into India. The standard of living in the west is superior than that of India, I dont think one really needs to argue that point.

onemorechance

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The same thing can be said about nationalism - I really do not see any difference between I am of xxx religion so I am favoured by God and I am of xxxx nationality so I am favoured by God/Nature. A collective psychosis rooted in our deep seated need to be special - more than an animal and exalted among our own kind. There is no 'logic' to it that I can see.

The logic of being proud of nationality is that it can preserve and celebrate the achievements of those who have gone before.

Aboriginals can be proud of their nations and they way in which they lived, and they should have the right to preserve that and celebrate it so that future generations can know that there are other ways of living life. It's especially important considering how it was iterrupted by other nations who considered themselves superior in every way. They can be proud of how they were able to reach and settle in new lands and create unique cultures and ways of living that while not completely harmless, were much more in tune with natural harmony than today.

People can be proud of being Irish because of the history of the country and the people that have lived here for thousands of years and their achievements to this day. Ireland has a long history of literature and music, and much of this can be due to the inspirtation that the unique geography of the island provided. Some of the oldest examples of writing are in Irish and it's one of the oldest language in Europe.

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

1960s Australia under the White's Only immigration policy which South Africa used as inspiration for Apartheid - no Idea what it was like to live there as I was a wee girl growing up in Cork at the time.

Australia of this century I am very familiar what with me having a permanent visa and all with as is Professor Kevin Dunn from the University of Western Sydney who in 2008 had a bit of a looksee at the issue of race in Australia


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-10-01/race-relations-still-struggle-in-lucky-country/527278.

By matter of interest when did you leave Australia, you must have been here are recent as 2008 if you are still a permanent resident.

Anyway. From the same ABC piece you linked.

Asma Yusra is a 21-year-old from Lakemba, a suburb of New South Wales with the highest ethnic diversity.

She says her experiences have been mixed.

"I am an Australian Muslim with an Indonesian background," she said.

"I've already gotten used to the occasional dirty look but I think what makes Australia very unique is the fact that it's much more multi-cultural and it's wanting to accept other cultures.

Comparatively, Australia does not shape up too badly against other countries in terms of racial tolerance.

"About one in 10 people in Australia have views akin to racial supremacy," he said.

"Now in parts of Western Europe and Central Europe you would find three in 10, four in 10. So Australia compares quite favourably in that regard.

"Some of the closer comparisons that we can make would be countries like New Zealand and Canada.

So Australia is BETTER than most places in Europe. I am sure you think it was otherwise when you quote only the most negatives aspect of any report or survey you put forward. Anyway.... I never said Australia was racist free/perfect/utopia so not too sure what actual point you are making. You brought up wogs/australia/white only policy etc.. and all that trying to make some point... I disagree with rasicm.

As I said 40% Australian residents are forgein born, probably the highest in ANY country in the planet. Looking at the big picture Australia in the most part is a very welcomig place for migrants of all race and creed. So much so they many are risking their lives in be here.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-26/indonesia-asylum-seeker-boat-sinking-death-toll-video/4844808

The number of people confirmed dead in the latest boat tragedy off Indonesia rose to 13 overnight as Home Affairs Minister Jason Clare accused people smugglers of lying to asylum seekers about Australia's 'PNG solution'

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I hope those Indian graduates referred to by a another poster don't 'flood' the Melbourne area as apparently they are not particularly welcome - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_violence_in_Australia#Attacks_against_Indian_students.

I remember that being on the news but once the headlines are embeded truth wins out, many dont remember the truth though. Headlines win the day it seems!

Australia is a popular destination for students from India. During 2009, some media in Australia and India publicised reports of crimes and robberies against Indians in Australia and alleged that they were racially motivated crimes. There were 120,913 Indian students enrolled to undertake an Australian qualification in 2009 and India was the second top-source country for Australia’s international education industry.[29] A subsequent Indian Government investigation concluded that out of 152 reported assaults against Indian students in Australia that year, 23 such incidents involved "racial overtones".[30] in 2011, the Australian Institute of Criminology released a study entitled Crimes Against International Students:2005-2009.[31] This found that over the period 2005-2009, international students were statistically less likely to be assaulted than the average person in Australia]. Indian students experienced an average assault rate in some jurisdictions, but overall they experienced lower assault rates than the Australian average. They did, however, experience higher rates of robbery, overall.[32] Additionally, multiple surveys of international students over the period of 2009-10 found a majority of Indian students felt safe

I remember one case where an Indian student claimed that he was assaulted by a gang of four white men robbed him, pushed him into a car and set it alight. A paper will never refuse ink and the allegations were made immediately in Australia and India (Headline News!) that this was a hate crime. Que more sensationalism...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/indians-injuries-raise-questions/story-e6frg6nf-1225817870787

However, it turned out that he was trying to burn out the car himself in an effort to claim the insurance but he messed it up just missing out on a Darwin award.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/burned-indian-faked-attack-to-claim-insurance-20100203-ncfy.html

Again, Australia aint perfect, never said it was but again no idea what actual point you are trying to make.

Final statement on the above.

Indian community leaders in Australia said Indian media has blown the issue out of proportion, and that their coverage could overcast the real issues faced by students.[48]

The Indian media's coverage has been likened to hysteria by the Australian media.[49] Australia's Immigration Minister, Chris Evans, said "There's been a lot of concern inside India and there's been, I think, some fairly hysterical reporting of what's occurred."[50] The Herald Sun's conservative right wing columnist, Andrew Bolt, described the events as a "circus",[51] whilst another said that Indian TV networks ignored the higher murder rate in India.[52] The Victorian Premier said the Indian media's coverage of the incidents was "unbalanced" and emphasised that two Indian nationals were charged with the murder of Jaspreet Singh.[53] An editorial by Radio Australia on the crimes used the words "media circus" in its headline

The NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research states there has been no recorded increase in assault crimes in Harris Park in the past two years. A member of the NSW upper house, Gordon Moyes, cited changing victim demographics for the suburb, "What has happened over the last few years is that a number of Indian students, attracted by fairly cheap accommodation, have come into the area, the target - always the soft targets - moved from elderly people walking on the street to Indian students with laptops.[78]

New South Wales Police have stated that Indians are not over represented in Australian crime statistics.[79]This view was supported by Sydney-based United India Association president Dr Prabhat Sinha, who took the view that the attacks were not necessarily racially motivated. He said: "They become soft targets by groups of four to six drug users, for example, who just want cash

Australia is so unwelcoming to Indians that.

As of 2012 the number of Indians migrating to Australia has increased to such an extent that Indians are now the most numerous nationality moving to Australia per year, overtaking China and the UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_attacks_on_Indians_in_Australia#Statistics_controversy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Once again I have provided examples and citations - or guns blazing as you put it - you have failed to provide any evidence of any kind that I am incorrect but instead resort to hyperbole - I don't think you understand how this 'discussion' thing works... implying I suffer from reverse racism is not debating either..

Hyperbole? That is funny when you just try and prove your point by headlines and employ senstationlism in your posts. You Godwined a few posts back.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let me simplify my position for you - I believe that Any concept or construct which states that A is 'better' than B because of religion, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation or national identity is absurd.

For the 4th time I agree! Will I say it again. I AGREE!! However not all nationalists or people who believe in nationality or a nation state think like that. A supremisct or racist will more than likely be a extreme nationalist but one can be a nationalist and not think they are superiour than {Insert Counrty/Group/Race} Your own post proved it. Only 10% of Australians harbour the notion that being from Country A you are 'favoured' by God/nature. 90% do NOT think like that besides all your effort to claim otherwise.

I am Irish and I am proud of that - do I think this makes me 'better' than anyone else - absolutely not. Do I think 'my country right or wrong' - absolutely not.

Do some Irish people believe it makes them better yes they do
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-racist-incident-reported-each-week-207802.html

That is absurd..

Yes, racism is absurd, I agree.

jank

nagirrac wrote: »

Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this as I have never encountered this hypothesis before?. Racial segregation was practiced in most colonies long before the Australian immigration policy you are citing. Dutch and/or British colonial racists were surely the "inspiration" for racial segregation, and not just in South Africa. The evidence seems to suggest Australian immigration policy of 1901 was designed to keep out cheap labor, so it was more economic protectionism rather than overt racism.

You actually raised a very good point. There was a definitive economic element to the white Australia policy where by workers were afraid of cheap labour coming in and flooding the workforce from much poorer countries that were of close proximity.

Surprise surprise it was the left leaning Labour Party with its afflilations with the unions that wanted to keep the policy in place when it came up for discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy#Support_from_the_Australian_Labour_Movement

It was the right leaning Liberal party under Holt that actualy abolished it in 1966.