Refusals at shows but not at home

dave66

Ok, looking for some thoughts input from experienced showjumpers please.

Something strange going on with my daughter's pony recently. The pony LOVES jumping, I mean she really loves it. She'll do dressage and performs well, but the moment she walks into the arena a she's jumps, her ears immediately go forward and you can sense her excitement and the prospect of jumping.

At home in the arena, she has progressed to 80s & 90s, clearing them like they'e not there and recently moved up to 1m (and occasional meter 5s/10s). My daughter has worked in training on spreads and used lots of weird and wonderful fillers. My daughter is really careful about not overdoing jumping as she doesn't want the pony going sour. She works out a schedule each week, includes 2 rest days, a day of ground work, a hack, jumping, bareback riding and lunging, so lots of variety. The pony has come on so much in the last year it's incredible, so well toned (in all the right places) that when we compare photos from last June to now, it's hard to believe it's the same pony.

The relationship between rider & pony is really great and at the risk of being biased, my daughter is a very competent rider.

She's gone to some local small events and performed perfect clear rounds at 70s-90s, but at 3 recent events she began refusing. My own feeling as a bystander is that the problem isn't the courses, heights, coloured fences etc but it's the long waits when shows run late.

For me the common factor between the events has been that we went to do clear round jumping at 80s/90s, the last two events were 3-4 hours late starting. The pony is incredibly patient, never a problem loading, travelling, unloading or just waiting in the box. However, to me I think she's been kept waiting around so long after travelling for 40 minutes that by the time she gets to jump "the mood is gone off her".

I'm actually considering renting an arena somewhere like Boswell just so that we can go, warm up and then jump the course a few times but before doing that (and I'd plan waiting a few weeks) is there anything else we should consider?

The only other factor to be considered for last Monday, is that she had been in season the previous week, but was out of season at least 3 days before the event.

As I have said before, I'm not a rider, I've done my best to learn as much as possible as quickly as possible in the last year, but I'd love to try help my daughter & her pony overcome this hiccup and assure her that it is only a hiccup.

Any thoughts/suggestions would be much appreciated.

Dave

Ave Sodalis

What does your daughter think it is? How old is the pony?
There are so many reasons for a pony to start refusing. At a show, is she kept in the horsebox or a stable? I don't think she would be turned off by a wait. It's your daughters job to waken her up during a warm up if that's the case.
Is she sore? Is it certain jumps she refuses? How many times a week is she jumped and how much per session? How many shows does she go to? Has she jumped the jumps she's refusing before? Is she slow coming into them? Is she too fast coming into them? What's her stride like before the jump? What's she like at lower heights? Is there anything your daughter does just before the jump that's refused that might put the pony off? How does your daughter react to a refusal?

dave66

Thanks for the reply. I'll get my daughter to answer your questions later, in the meantime I'll do my best to provide answers from what I'm seeing:

sup_dude wrote: »

What does your daughter think it is?

She's a little perplexed by it, in that at first she thought it could be the jumps, in that pony doesn't seem to like flat boards, however she does jump them. She's leaning towards that it's the waiting around.

sup_dude wrote: »

How old is the pony?

11

sup_dude wrote: »

There are so many reasons for a pony to start refusing. At a show, is she kept in the horsebox or a stable?

We keep her in the horsebox. Last Monday, as things were running so late, after an hour we took her out and walked her etc for about 45 minutes and then put her back in box so we could check if we were getting close to being able to jump. Took her out about 40 minutes before event and warmed up walk - trot - jump cross poles - jump straights at/above height of event jump. Pony performed great in warm up. The pony lives out. As I mentioned she's extremely calm & patient in the box, no loading/unloading issues & travels perfectly.

sup_dude wrote: »

I don't think she would be turned off by a wait. It's your daughters job to waken her up during a warm up if that's the case.

Yeah, my daughter takes the warm up very seriously

sup_dude wrote: »

Is she sore?

Hmm, now there's a point, we had the dentist out last week, he did some work on front teeth but he reckons mollars need attention but wants to sedate her lightly as she wasn't happy when he went to work on mollars (this could be also because pony doesn't seem to like men, except me). So I suppose that's a factor, altough I know my daughter doesn't pull on the pony's mouth at any stage, she's very adept at riding using seat/legs and light touch on the mouth.

sup_dude wrote: »

Is it certain jumps she refuses?

It does seem to be mostly flat boards that she doesn't like, but she will jump them. Spreads were a slight issue but she seems happy with them now.

sup_dude wrote: »

How many times a week is she jumped and how much per session?

Generally, she's jumped once a week, session would last 40 minutes'ish. Starts with a cross pole, then moves to a single straight (70s), then a double with the second of the double being a spread. Raises the single straight to 80, then raises double & spread, raises to 90s. Generally ends jumping single straight at meter/meter 10. No refusals and no knocked poles.

sup_dude wrote: »

How many shows does she go to?

We don't yet own our own box, have rented a box/borrowed, my daughter's real love is Dressage and so most outings are for that. I guess this year we've gone to 5-6 jumping events. It was really just the last 2-3 that there were refusals.

sup_dude wrote: »

Has she jumped the jumps she's refusing before? Is she slow coming into them? Is she too fast coming into them? What's her stride like before the jump?

She has certaily jumped the heights (and higher) before and she has jumped flat boards/planks too. Pace & strides seem to be fine (to me).

sup_dude wrote: »

What's she like at lower heights? Is there anything your daughter does just before the jump that's refused that might put the pony off? How does your daughter react to a refusal?

She hasn't done the lower heights for some time other than at home but was sailing over them as if they weren't there, pony is 14.2/14.3 and up to meter 10's (singles) don't take anything out of her, focusing on 80s & 90s for the moment, having worked up to the height. I haven't noticed her doing anything different before jumps that are refused compared to jumps that are cleared. My daughter sits all the refusals, encourages pony and takes jump again, on Monday there was only one double that the pony refused (2-3 times) it was a spread followed by a straight, refused the spread. My daughter was firm with her but continued to encourage her going into each fence.

I'm wondering if we should hold off jumping until after dentist finishes work (altough he said she's not in pain) and then rent a local & larger arena that has variety of jumps (we've no boards in our yard's arena).

Really appreciate your input and time answering my post. I'll get my daughter to check my replies above to see if she has anything to add or change.

Thanks again

Dave

Ave Sodalis

Is she sore anywhere else? Does the pony stop suddenly or start refusing before she gets to the jump? Does it stop or dodge to one side?
Anything different could mean a lapse in concentration or mentality. Ponies are notorious for cheekiness. For example, a few weeks ago, I was jumping a pony a small height (60cm) as he hadn't competed in years. We were going over a double, from a straight bar to a cross pole and I thought to myself "well, the only logical way to go is forwards as there's a jump to the left of us and it's only a cross pole which he's jumped loads before, he should be fine"... but of course, he ducked out at the last minute because I stopped thinking for a second. Same with another jump the week before, was a sharpish bend into it and I had arrived late so didn't get to properly walk the course. Coming into a straight bar and I only looked at it when I was about 2 strides out and thought "Ha! That jump's pink!" so the pony tossed it...
Edit; I know I'm asking a lot of questions but just trying to get a feel for what's happening

dave66

sup_dude wrote: »

Is she sore anywhere else? Does the pony stop suddenly or start refusing before she gets to the jump? Does it stop or dodge to one side?
Anything different could mean a lapse in concentration or mentality. Ponies are notorious for cheekiness. For example, a few weeks ago, I was jumping a pony a small height (60cm) as he hadn't competed in years. We were going over a double, from a straight bar to a cross pole and I thought to myself "well, the only logical way to go is forwards as there's a jump to the left of us and it's only a cross pole which he's jumped loads before, he should be fine"... but of course, he ducked out at the last minute because I stopped thinking for a second. Same with another jump the week before, was a sharpish bend into it and I had arrived late so didn't get to properly walk the course. Coming into a straight bar and I only looked at it when I was about 2 strides out and thought "Ha! That jump's pink!" so the pony tossed it...
Edit; I know I'm asking a lot of questions but just trying to get a feel for what's happening

Hi, it's Dave's daughter.
No pony isn't in any other pain we're very careful to check her and being a mare she lets us know if she's unhappy, if it was pain she would also be stopping at home however she's sailing over jumps at home and loving it! It's stops not run-outs that she does and you wouldn't know until a stride before or less that she was going to stop. She's seen other fillers/bright colours at previous shows and we had two lovely clears in June in an 80cm course but at the two previous shows we had an extremely long wait before our round where she got genuinely very tired and worn out and even after a good wake up and warmup I could still feel she was very sleepy and tired from the wait, think we plan on taking a break from show jumping competitions until September and heading to the beach etc for a change of scenery instead and then heading back for a school around a local course at 80s and 90s and will go from there, have the dentist up next week to finish the job so hopefully after a month away from shows and having her teeth done we'll head to a show that's actually run on time and pop her round a course! She's a very sweet & active pony and has been foot perfect at home and at all previous shows so the only real factor we can see to have caused it is the wait as my riding style and the height has not changed so hopefully it really is the long waits that's caused her refusals! Thanks for the advice btw!

convert

What surface(s) is the pony being ridden on at home? Is it possible that she's starting to 'feel the ground' given that we've had so little rain for the last while and the hard ground is taking its toll? Even though the pony's routine is varied with lots of different activities, it's still possible that she's becoming a little sore. It might be worthwhile taking a look at her feet and legs to see if she's tender (they don't have to be warm or swollen for her to be a little jarred).

If working on all weather at home and jumping on grass at shows, the pony may be finding a little difficult to 'find her feet' if she has to adjust her stride at the fences. I had a mare a few years ago who was jumping fantastically at home and in the practice arena at shows (where the ground was a little more cut up than the show arena), but once she got into the arena she just couldn't handle it and stopped, even though she never, ever stopped - I could count the number of times she stopped during her career on one hand - literally. She was fantastic. We put in bigger studs and it made such a huge difference - her feet weren't slipping at all and she was so much more confidence. (when I say slipping, I just mean moving a tiny bit when she went to adjust her stride, not a full on slip).

When waiting around at the shows, does the pony drink much? If she's dehydrated, she may not perform well.

dave66

convert wrote: »

What surface(s) is the pony being ridden on at home? Is it possible that she's starting to 'feel the ground' given that we've had so little rain for the last while and the hard ground is taking its toll? Even though the pony's routine is varied with lots of different activities, it's still possible that she's becoming a little sore. It might be worthwhile taking a look at her feet and legs to see if she's tender (they don't have to be warm or swollen for her to be a little jarred).

If working on all weather at home and jumping on grass at shows, the pony may be finding a little difficult to 'find her feet' if she has to adjust her stride at the fences. I had a mare a few years ago who was jumping fantastically at home and in the practice arena at shows (where the ground was a little more cut up than the show arena), but once she got into the arena she just couldn't handle it and stopped, even though she never, ever stopped - I could count the number of times she stopped during her career on one hand - literally. She was fantastic. We put in bigger studs and it made such a huge difference - her feet weren't slipping at all and she was so much more confidence. (when I say slipping, I just mean moving a tiny bit when she went to adjust her stride, not a full on slip).

When waiting around at the shows, does the pony drink much? If she's dehydrated, she may not perform well.

At home she's on a fibre/sand mix surface, last monday it was a similar surface. The time before that was grass, with far too many (IMHO) downhill jumps. She only has shoes on her front feet. I know my daughter is very careful about checking her legs feet etc but we'll check again. She lives out (grass livery) but sometimes before shows she stays in over night in a stable with a good bed - wonder if the change of surface followed by standing in the box (on rubber over metal floor) could be a factor.

As for drinking, she's a demon for not drinking during shows, I've called her a camel. We always have loads of water for her and offer it to her before loading, while waiting in the box, when she comes out, when she's standing waiting, after jumping but she rarely takes it. Even when not a shows, she rarely drinks when in the yard and waits to get to field to drink. I wonder if we added a little bit of apple juice or some form of suitable flavouring to the water if it would help.

We both really appreciate the input we are getting, thanks. Our main concern is not her performance at shows, we just want to make sure she's happy and to ensure she's not uncomfortable - her well being is our primary focus.

Esroh

Dave
Somewhere there has been a confidence loss.

Have you videoed any of these rounds.
99% of stops in the last few strides are due to a lack of confidence and its the loss of rein contact that is the trigger or excuse what ever way you look at it. Watch to see as you Daughter anticipates a problem does she lower her hands and therefore lose the contact enough for the pony to stop . (After this has happened at 3 events it maybe only a subconcius fear of the refusal so she will not realise its happening ). So even when schooling keep an eye on this to see if its happening as at home it will not lead to a stop but in a competition it can..

The main thing here is building confidence in the partnership so be careful of the idea that 'We must jump big' to get things right .

Measure the distance between your double at home as although she has no problem jumping there it maybe she is jumping it as she knows it and then when at a show decides she would prefer not. So be sure its not a bit short

If she is happy jumping in the first class at a show I would leave it at that the next time(or as you say if going for a schooling round do not go to jump big Go to jump a 70 track well)


You Daughter shows in your replies she has a bad case of 'Loving Horse Disease' and I'm sure you will sort things out.


One other thing You say dressage is the main discipline so I presume you have had some help. It maybe worth having a jumping lesson or 2

dave66

Esroh wrote: »

Dave
Somewhere there has been a confidence loss.

Have you videoed any of these rounds.
99% of stops in the last few strides are due to a lack of confidence and its the loss of rein contact that is the trigger or excuse what ever way you look at it. Watch to see as you Daughter anticipates a problem does she lower her hands and therefore lose the contact enough for the pony to stop . (After this has happened at 3 events it maybe only a subconcius fear of the refusal so she will not realise its happening ). So even when schooling keep an eye on this to see if its happening as at home it will not lead to a stop but in a competition it can..

I'm a photographer, so aside from transport manager, groom etc, I also shoot all her events (at her request), so we we'll review latest photos to see if we can spot something.

Esroh wrote: »

The main thing here is building confidence in the partnership so be careful of the idea that 'We must jump big' to get things right .

Measure the distance between your double at home as although she has no problem jumping there it maybe she is jumping it as she knows it and then when at a show decides she would prefer not. So be sure its not a bit short

If she is happy jumping in the first class at a show I would leave it at that the next time(or as you say if going for a schooling round do not go to jump big Go to jump a 70 track well)

Thanks, that's something else to check out.

Esroh wrote: »

You Daughter shows in your replies she has a bad case of 'Loving Horse Disease' and I'm sure you will sort things out.

Love is probably not a big enough word

Esroh wrote: »

One other thing You say dressage is the main discipline so I presume you have had some help. It maybe worth having a jumping lesson or 2

Yep, she's had lessons in the past and yesterday we were talking, the plan is to back of events for a little while, relax and have a jumping lesson or two towards end of the month.

One thing I can say, there's no panic involved here, no parental pressure, we're taking things easy and I reckon that'll help things come right.

Great bunch of people here, we appreciate the input, you know yourself, sometimes even with loads of experience it can be hard to see the wood for the trees.

Ave Sodalis

dave66 wrote: »

Great bunch of people here, we appreciate the input, you know yourself, sometimes even with loads of experience it can be hard to see the wood for the trees.

You can work with horses for 70 years and they'll still teach you new things
Maybe post the photos here too, and we'll see what we can see

Esroh

sup_dude wrote: »

You can work with horses for 70 years and they'll still teach you new things

+100 and remind you of things you have forgotten

Dark Phoenix

I don't agree that waiting around can't cause problems. I have seen it happen and have had it happen to me. Where there are hours of delays at shows ponies can 'switch off'.

What I would suggest that might help you figure out if this is the issue would be to rent a venue you are not familiar with and where you can unload and get going right away and see how it goes. if all is okay then the waiting might be a factor. if you have the same problems its something else.

one other question - does the pony jump courses of this height at home? When going up the heights there is a difference between jumping one or two big fences at home and jumping a course of it in competition where the ground and atmosphere are very different

Kevhog1988

Does your daughter carry a stick??

dave66

sup_dude wrote: »

You can work with horses for 70 years and they'll still teach you new things
Maybe post the photos here too, and we'll see what we can see

We'll post a few photo's later, I'm told she has gone over the photos and cannot see any difference in her/her approach/the pony between fences that are cleared and those that are refused.

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

I don't agree that waiting around can't cause problems. I have seen it happen and have had it happen to me. Where there are hours of delays at shows ponies can 'switch off'.

Funny that you used the phrase "switch off" that's exactly how Ruth phrased it.

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

What I would suggest that might help you figure out if this is the issue would be to rent a venue you are not familiar with and where you can unload and get going right away and see how it goes. if all is okay then the waiting might be a factor. if you have the same problems its something else.

There's a venue she can hack to in a few minutes and we plan going there towards the end of the month

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

one other question - does the pony jump courses of this height at home? When going up the heights there is a difference between jumping one or two big fences at home and jumping a course of it in competition where the ground and atmosphere are very different

She hasn't jumped courses at home, other than maybe 4-5 fences, but she has jumped these heights before at Boswell, without the hanging around.

theemigrant wrote: »

Does your daughter carry a stick??

Sometimes she carries a stick, she can generally sense if she'll need one, it's unusual for her to have to use it as the pony typically loves jumping and needs no extra "encouragement"

emma-fly

I have only started showjumping this season but have been getting a lot of lessons and sometimes the guy I get lessons from is even at events with his kids so gives me some tips after my rounds.

I went to maybe 5 events without a refusal and at the latest competition I had a refusal which I was pretty upset about. The reason being I was jumping jump number 4 but concentrating on jump number 5 so I gave my horse the slack he needed to run out

From going to competitions Ive found the best way to learn and correct mistakes/problems is to video everything! Video the warm up and video the round, Its much easier to learn that way, as a rider it can be difficult to see everything. After a competition Ill go home and sit and watch the video and I can see exactly where I made a mistake. Its great as a reference point too, to see where I have improved or what little mistakes keep popping up.

It could be very handy in this case to get information about which jumps the refusals are at, what the ponies reaction is to the jumps its refusing, if the pony looks distracted or in pain or if its possibly a rider mistake like my refusal

dave66

Quick update, pony has been rested from jumping, bar doing some single jumps last week at home when the owner came to visit. Horse dentist came yesterday and he did some work, he sees no issues with her teeth/mouth. So that's out of the equation now (not that we really think it was an issue)

We have a lesson booked for Friday evening and a local venue where there'll be a full course set up. Instructor knows both horse and rider, has worked with them over the past year and has been brought up to speed on recent issues.

marley123

Have you had the Pony's back checked?? also you have mentioned pony has changed shape the past year it would be worth getting saddle fit checked also.

dave66

Hi everyone, Dave's daughter again, really appreciate all the input! Had our lesson last Friday in a nearby yard with lots of bright fences etc, spoke to instructor and she agrees the wait definitely could have affected her at the first show as it hadn't happened before/at home however we believe the second show may have been more psychological, I was aware that the wait had affected her the first time so was winding myself up and losing confidence and almost expecting the refusals as it was in my mind the memory of the week before and so i was letting my mind getting ahead of me! So in the lesson we popped round a course and once I relaxed again and rode to the fences with power & confidence she cleared things by miles! It was the major confidence boost that we needed and are hopefully back on track! We cleared a 95cm course with some decent spreads with ease and really gained some helpful tips and experience! Hopefully it will help me man-up a bit and give us a bit of confidence! Only going to do 80s at our next show to keep it simple and positive! Really appreciate all the feedback. Also in answer to your question we haven't had her back seen to as of yet(am saving for it atm!) but will have him out soon just to ensure she's as happy and comfortable as she can possibly be

Dark Phoenix

Thats great news well done! Best of luck at the next few shows. Good idea to start with the 80's building both your confidence and going form there - very good attitude to have.

Having a lesson or schooling session is brilliant every so often as I find it will uncover issues that don't crop up when just doing a few fences at home or exercises at home.