Were you religious before you were atheist?

kylith

Obliq wrote: »

It wasn't all fun trips to church though. I was also the only child to be thoroughly questioned by teachers in school as to why I didn't believe in God. No child was asked why they did? I was also put on the spot in front of 3 classes (age 10 approx) and asked "what do you think happens then, when we die?".

I was the one who mumbled through prayers in an attempt to look the same as everyone else.

Kiwi has a totally different experience of being brought up atheist, in that it didn't come up for her in the same way at all. In Ireland (land of saints and indoctrination), I stuck out like a sore thumb

That is absolutely fúcking horrible to do to a child, you poor thing. If that happened any kids in my family I would be livid.

I kept pretty quiet about my atheism until near the end of secondary when I stopped giving a frak. My proudest moment was during a religion class when the teacher was blathering on about cults and how they were only after your money. "Like Catholicism?", I asked. "Certainly not!" she said. "So," says I, "are you telling me that they don't pass a collection plate around in mass?" She left me alone after that and I got a reputation as a smart arse, which didn't hurt.

ShooterSF

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

agree its far from ideal, but i wouldn't consider going along with religion, for their sake, as massively upsetting as that would give religion way too much importance. same as going along with santa- still lying to your kids.

i think the guilt/ religious pressure that some of us may have experienced at school is not quite there these days, they wouldn't get away with the cr@p they once did years ago.

have a buddy who just says to his kids that some people would believe X when they come home with some religious nonsense. doesn't express his own opinion, just puts it out there.

Leaving aside my probable issue with santa, the Santa myth is a lot less dangerous psychologically. It doesn't teach people that certain urges or sexual actions are sinful and should be resisted for example. And by starting a child down the path of Catholicism and exposing them to it's methods of indoctrination you risk playing a part in them becoming a full fledged member (and I don't mean the a la carte variety) and as much damage as my own indoctrination did to me seeing myself playing such a role in my child's development would break me.

And maybe they don't get away with the worst parts but even if they simply dull your child's natural curiosity about the world and the universe around them by peddling easy answers that aren't up for debate, that itself is bad enough.

I think if I was in your buddy's shoes (not that I'm offering mind ) I'd like to think I'd ask my child what they think and then ask them why they think it. Even if it's a silly idea and they give a silly reason it might teach them to question other people's beliefs and ask themselves why they believe something.

robindch

Obliq wrote: »

I was also the only child to be thoroughly questioned by teachers in school as to why I didn't believe in God. No child was asked why they did? I was also put on the spot in front of 3 classes (age 10 approx) and asked "what do you think happens then, when we die?".

Stuff like this makes me (a) absolutely livid and (b) wonder whether there should be a sticky thread in the forum for people's experiences of religion in schools.

Any interest?

jimmytwotimes 2013

ShooterSF wrote: »

Leaving aside my probable issue with santa, the Santa myth is a lot less dangerous psychologically. It doesn't teach people that certain urges or sexual actions are sinful and should be resisted for example. And by starting a child down the path of Catholicism and exposing them to it's methods of indoctrination you risk playing a part in them becoming a full fledged member (and I don't mean the a la carte variety) and as much damage as my own indoctrination did to me seeing myself playing such a role in my child's development would break me.

And maybe they don't get away with the worst parts but even if they simply dull your child's natural curiosity about the world and the universe around them by peddling easy answers that aren't up for debate, that itself is bad enough.

I think if I was in your buddy's shoes (not that I'm offering mind ) I'd like to think I'd ask my child what they think and then ask them why they think it. Even if it's a silly idea and they give a silly reason it might teach them to question other people's beliefs and ask themselves why they believe something.

oh i'm not saying you'd never encourage them to question things, i definitely would. i don't think there is much done on the sexual side of catholicism at primary level, so that wouldn't be as much of a worry.

i have seen what some of the religious crowd trot out awful stuff on sex at second level though. a question and answer book i got to see once, one question along the lines of 'i think i might like people of my own sex, what does this mean?' then the book explains how it'll pass and its not what god intended for you and all the appalling stuff. but i would definitely have stepped in by second level to tell them its all fantasy anyway.

female friend has great story of her kid coming home from a rural primary school to tell her mom that they learned that the virgin mary was their real mother and that she was only watching her kid until she went to heaven. the mother just replied 'oh yeah, did she go to hospital to give birth to you as well?'

like i said, i wouldn't take it massively seriously. if i thought there was some serious damage being done, i would step in, but i think generally its something in the background that doesn't bother a lot of young kids who are too busy running around and having fun. but like i said, if a kid of mine ever started to feel bad over some religious nonsense i would step in. doesn't happen as much anymore i think- the guilt and sin and rubbish like that.

god in my parents' day was apparently a vindictive so-and-so- these days he's mellowed out apparently and loves everyone and is not so quick with the smiting!!

lazygal

robindch wrote: »

Stuff like this makes me (a) absolutely livid and (b) wonder whether there should be a sticky thread in the forum for people's experiences of religion in schools.

Any interest?

Like this? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78583324

Obliq

kylith wrote: »

That is absolutely fúcking horrible to do to a child, you poor thing. If that happened any kids in my family I would be livid.

I kept pretty quiet about my atheism until near the end of secondary when I stopped giving a frak. My proudest moment was during a religion class when the teacher was blathering on about cults and how they were only after your money. "Like Catholicism?", I asked. "Certainly not!" she said. "So," says I, "are you telling me that they don't pass a collection plate around in mass?" She left me alone after that and I got a reputation as a smart arse, which didn't hurt.

Aw, well it was a great start to growing the rhino hide skin that I have at this stage! This was in the 70's of course, and nothing like that ever would happen a child now (we hope) - not to forget that's the same school where blackboard dusters were fired down the classroom at small children's heads and desks were flung over on a regular basis. It's all relative really!

My own kids sailed happily through the local N.S. (Catholic, of course) as two little unafraid atheists and I've nothing but respect for their teachers who managed to be inclusive and fair-minded in spite of having to teach the empty rhetoric of sinning to kids. I always had the impression that they had far more trouble putting across god-fearing notions to small children without scarring them for life, than not teaching that stuff to mine.

Cabaal

My experience in school with religion, i didn't speak out much in primary,
But come secondary school the teachers really disliked me as I always questioned stuff in religion class

One day that sticks out is when our religion class teacher was talking about morals and how we are born with them,

I called bull**** on this belief and outlined that society teaches you morals, you are and never will be born with them.
I gave an example, that if you grew up in a society where if somebody disrespected you or your family you could put them to death then you would believe that morally you are entitled to do so and morally it is right.

She disputed my example claiming that even if you killed somebody you'd know its wrong, I clearly explained society would have thought the person otherwise and gave a more recent example of something people used to think was wrong but now they know its not (damned if I can remember exact details)

She told me to shut up in the end,

My example was based on Klingons in Startrek, after all September 11th hadn't happened yet and as we can see history has very much proven me correct on this one. Society and as we can see religion can be used to justify very very bad things as "right".

After 3rd year the teacher kicked me out of the class, which was fine for me

jimmytwotimes 2013

Obliq wrote: »

My own kids sailed happily through the local N.S. (Catholic, of course) as two little unafraid atheists and I've nothing but respect for their teachers who managed to be inclusive and fair-minded in spite of having to teach the empty rhetoric of sinning to kids. I always had the impression that they had far more trouble putting across god-fearing notions to small children without scarring them for life, than not teaching that stuff to mine.

i'd say a lot of teachers these days think its absolute horsesh@t as well, but just go along with it.

would love to know the amount of people who do just go along with it just because its less hassle. the church still has a big influence in life in certain parts of the country (especially rural areas) and obviously education. how many parents just couldn't be doing with the bother required to stand against it?

obviously the longer that goes on, the less likely it is to change.

Obliq

Jaysus lads, I've just been reading some of the first pages in that thread Lazygal linked to (can't think why I missed the whole thread before?!) - BRUTAL experiences. Robin, my little experience of being called out as an atheist in a religious school pales in comparison to nearly many comments I've read there so far.....

Easy to see how atheism is on the rise anyway. Bloody hell, I clearly went to very nice schools

kylith

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

female friend has great story of her kid coming home from a rural primary school to tell her mom that they learned that the virgin mary was their real mother and that she was only watching her kid until she went to heaven. the mother just replied 'oh yeah, did she go to hospital to give birth to you as well?'

Funnily enough I had a similar experience. It was figuratively beaten into us at school that we were God's children, and we were all brothers and sisters. I went home one day and told my parents that I wished the girl around the corner wasn't my sister because I didn't like her. Cue my religious parents asking where I'd gotten the idea I was related to her from and telling me not to take it literally. I think that it is something to take seriously; children believe what adults tell them, so taking the attitude to just go along with it is, imo, setting your children up to have their heads filled with nonsense in a setting that is supposed to be educating them. Letting it go until it becomes a problem is shutting the stable door when the horse is long gone.

These days they don't like it when I tell them that they're the reason I'm an atheist; my dad seemed genuinely shocked when I pointed out to him that they're the ones who told me not to take it literally, who bought me books and encouraged me to read, and who showed me documentaries which taught me about evolution.

lazygal

As a new-ish parent, I've found the bizarre thing is that it takes more effort to opt out than opt in. We set a bit of a marker by not having a church wedding, but still had people ask about a christening, as though we were depriving our child of it. The theme we encountered was very much that it was all very well for us to have our way with opting out of the church, but it was downright selfish to not give a child the option. We've also had to navigate school enrolment policies since our child was born. We've luckily been pretty much guaranteed a school place in an educate together (barring unforseen hoards of sibling applications) but I still had to make sure we'd be able to enrol in our second choice school and inquire about baptism cert policies. We've had questions about what we'll do when cousins/friends do communions, whether we'll 'bother' with Christmas, whether we'll 'do' Easter, all that sort of thing.

No one we know who's done the magic water splash has been subject to half the amount of questioning. It's accepted as a given that its okay to do it, rather than people asking why they feel the need to baptise.

krudler

Sarky wrote: »

Ever tried to imagine what life would be like if you were still religious?

It'd be awful, the notion that you're presented with making choices in life, but the being that gives you that choice already knows which one you'll make and you'll be punished accordingly for making the "wrong" one is abnormal thinking.

I prayed as a kid, around about my confirmation started seeing the cracks in all the nonsense, was on the fence after that for a few years, haven't gone to mass for non funeral/wedding reasons since 1997, I remember because it was the same weekend the special edition of Star Wars was rereleased into the cinema and I skipped mass to go see that instead, never looked back :pac:

swampgas

kylith wrote: »

Funnily enough I had a similar experience. It was figuratively beaten into us at school that we were God's children, and we were all brothers and sisters. I went home one day and told my parents that I wished the girl around the corner wasn't my sister because I didn't like her. Cue my religious parents asking where I'd gotten the idea I was related to her from and telling me not to take it literally. I think that it is something to take seriously; children believe what adults tell them, so taking the attitude to just go along with it is, imo, setting your children up to have their heads filled with nonsense in a setting that is supposed to be educating them. Letting it go until it becomes a problem is shutting the stable door when the horse is long gone.

+1

I wonder why so many people can't see the harm in teaching kids to be irrational?

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

We've also had to navigate school enrolment policies since our child was born. We've luckily been pretty much guaranteed a school place in an educate together (barring unforseen hoards of sibling applications) but I still had to make sure we'd be able to enrol in our second choice school and inquire about baptism cert policies. We've had questions about what we'll do when cousins/friends do communions, whether we'll 'bother' with Christmas, whether we'll 'do' Easter, all that sort of thing.

No one we know who's done the magic water splash has been subject to half the amount of questioning. It's accepted as a given that its okay to do it, rather than people asking why they feel the need to baptise.

therein lies the problem, not everyone has an educate-together in their area. we did the christening, just so our one will get into a school without hassle.

unrelated to this post, but one or two others commenting. i would never let the religion thing scar, upset or do anything or the sort to the small one, not a chance. i would hope she'd sail through it mostly, see communion (as a lot of 7 yr olds do) as a day where they get dressed up and people make a fuss over them- religion, for me, that day wasn't even a consideration.

but unfortunately, as regards education, in parts of this country you'd still have to play the game- a lot do.

kylith

lazygal wrote: »

As a new-ish parent, I've found the bizarre thing is that it takes more effort to opt out than opt in. We set a bit of a marker by not having a church wedding, but still had people ask about a christening, as though we were depriving our child of it. The theme we encountered was very much that it was all very well for us to have our way with opting out of the church, but it was downright selfish to not give a child the option. We've also had to navigate school enrolment policies since our child was born. We've luckily been pretty much guaranteed a school place in an educate together (barring unforseen hoards of sibling applications) but I still had to make sure we'd be able to enrol in our second choice school and inquire about baptism cert policies. We've had questions about what we'll do when cousins/friends do communions, whether we'll 'bother' with Christmas, whether we'll 'do' Easter, all that sort of thing.

No one we know who's done the magic water splash has been subject to half the amount of questioning. It's accepted as a given that its okay to do it, rather than people asking why they feel the need to baptise.

I can never understand how people take the line that not baptising children is depriving them of a choice when it's the exact opposite.

And I wish my family would let me not bother with Christmas. Every time I've tried to do that my dad showed up on my doorstep on the 24th and insisted on taking me home, where I was obviously surly about having my plan to watch sci-fi in my dressing gown whilst eating biscuits thwarted. These days we get OH's mum every year. At least while she's religious she doesn't bother us about it.

Cabaal

Sure might as well post present day stuff,

So i got married a few years back, I'm not religious (obviously) but my wife would be I guess what you call spiritual and she would consider herself a christian.

She came from a very catholic household, the type that go to mass three times during the weekend of good Friday and all that lark.

If my wife was home visiting her parents she'd be dragged to mass with them and if I was there I'd sometimes go just to keep my wife happy....though it was always a bone of contention between us.

My family on the other hand wasn't religious, everyone in my house had a church wedding (just like so many people in Ireland) but my parents wouldn't be pushed if I decided I wasn't going to.

Anyway we did discuss the no church wedding and her parents wouldn't have attended our wedding if it wasn't in a church, so perhaps foolishly we gave in and got married in a church.

I've always been very clear about the church wedding part, even on the day itself I explained the church part means nothing at all to me I made this extremely clear to the priest before hand and I've even made this extremely clear to my mother in-law.

Since getting married obviously there's been further revelations about the sexual abuse in the catholic church amongst other things.

My wife now refuses to attend mass with her parents due to this, it all came to a head shortly after the Murphy report was published later in 2009. The week after it was released (and i had read many parts of it I might add) we did the usual thing of going to mass with her parents and we happened to go to the cathedral in Waterford.

Now this place is normally packed out according to my wife but it was next to empty, the priest decided now was the time to read out a statement they had during which several people walked out. I just felt so angry at that moment and I could see so was my wife, the only reason I didn't walk out was to stop grief between her and her family.

Once I got outside I told her I won't be going to any further masses with her parents, no if's or buts. My wife also said she wasn't going to go anymore and later outlined to her mother that because she worked with children in her job she could no longer in good conscious have anything to do with the catholic church.

So that was the end of me attending mass with my wife's parents,

Even before we got married we had made that decision that any children we have will not be christened and we will not caving on this matter. We could not inflict further brain washing on another generation like it was inflicted on us.

We know this is going to be a bone of contention when the time comes but it just won't be happen, I will admit the school aspect of not christening my kid does worry me but I won't be giving in any further.

lazygal

I happen to love Christmas. When we got married we nicely but firmly told our families we'd be having our own Christmas from now on, and staying in our own home and suiting ourselves. I'm so glad we did this as now children are in the picture I'd dread having to pack up and head here, there and everywhere to please families every Christmas. We see loads of them over the festive season, but Christmas day is our day.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Stuff like this makes me (a) absolutely livid and (b) wonder whether there should be a sticky thread in the forum for people's experiences of religion in schools.

Like this? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78583324

Yes - but stickied, so people can add to it over time and mods move relevant posts into it from other threads like this one.

lazygal

robindch wrote: »

Yes - but stickied, so people can add to it over time and mods move relevant posts into it from other threads like this one.

I don't mind that thread being a sticky. Or would it be better to start a new one?

Obliq

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

would love to know the amount of people who do just go along with it just because its less hassle. the church still has a big influence in life in certain parts of the country (especially rural areas) and obviously education. how many parents just couldn't be doing with the bother required to stand against it?

obviously the longer that goes on, the less likely it is to change.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

therein lies the problem, not everyone has an educate-together in their area. we did the christening, just so our one will get into a school without hassle............

but unfortunately, as regards education, in parts of this country you'd still have to play the game- a lot do.

Jimmy, I do live in rural Ireland, in a very small village and my kids were the first in the history of the school not to make communion/confirmation. It's not as hard as you seem to think - nobody has to play the game - you have choices.

I quoted both your posts because between the last lines of each, there's a bit of a contradiction! Leads me to think you're in two minds about what to do. As far as "obviously the longer that goes on, the less likely it is to change", honesty from people is the only thing that will cause change. As for "in parts of this country you'd still have to play the game- a lot do" - yes, a lot do, but more and more they don't "have" to.

I have seen how my kids experience has paved the way for more atheist parents to send their kids to the same school, whereas before, they would have travelled way out of their area. It doesn't hurt to stick your neck above the parapet sometimes....

jimmytwotimes 2013

Obliq wrote: »

It doesn't hurt to stick your neck above the parapet sometimes....

true, if ur in a position to- different circumstances for everyone.

kylith

There are several people who've posted here who've brought their kids out for a special day instead of them making their communion, and had no problems.

And yes, the longer it goes on the harder it is to change, but non-Catholics 'playing the game' is what's causing it to go on so long and be so hard to change. The more people say 'I am not doing this. Do not include my child in religious instruction' the quicker we can get it out of schools, being seen to want a change in the school system is the only thing that will give us a more inclusive schools system.

jimmytwotimes 2013

kylith wrote: »

but non-Catholics 'playing the game' is what's causing it to go on so long and be so hard to change.

i don't know, maybe.

biggest problem is obviously the religious gang sitting on boards of management in schools. they can decide between someone getting/ or not getting employment. shur even in the case of sexuality, if you're a gay teacher you keep your mouth shut as a religious school would probably move you along fairly quickly if they knew about it. i would know of two privately gay teachers who live absolute miles from where they teach so they can lead their lives as they wish. still a lot of hurdles to be overcome on this issue.

i respect anyone who makes a stand, but anyone choosing that they just don't want the hassle, or indeed aren't so offended by a bit of religious nonsense should be respected and allowed raise their own as they see fit.

religion won't be an issue for schools the day the church walks away from school patronage. until then.........

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i don't know, maybe.

biggest problem is obviously the religious gang sitting on boards of management in schools. they can decide between someone getting/ or not getting employment. shur even in the case of sexuality, if you're a gay teacher you keep your mouth shut as a religious school would probably move you along fairly quickly if they knew about it. i would know of two privately gay teachers who live absolute miles from where they teach so they can lead their lives as they wish. still a lot of hurdles to be overcome on this issue.

i respect anyone who makes a stand, but anyone choosing that they just don't want the hassle, or indeed aren't so offended by a bit of religious nonsense should be respected and allowed raise their own as they see fit.

religion won't be an issue for schools the day the church walks away from school patronage. until then.........

What would be the problems caused by not baptising your child? I'm going on anecdotes, but in more rural areas the school places issue doesn't seem to be as much hassle as more urban areas. Certainly cousins of my husband's had no problems in their local rural school in the 1980s when they were the only atheists for miles around.

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

What would be the problems caused by not baptising your child? I'm going on anecdotes, but in more rural areas the school places issue doesn't seem to be as much hassle as more urban areas. Certainly cousins of my husband's had no problems in their local rural school in the 1980s when they were the only atheists for miles around.

clue would be in the post, but not going into my own specifics. a decision like that could make things difficult for me personally, would love it to be otherwise. and like i said, if a smallie came home to me and said 'daddy, i was told X at school....' i'd make fairly light of it and put them at their ease, or if needed i'd all-out contradict it, that would be fine. maybe that in itself is also a life-lesson for kids, don't get too rattled, or bothered, by nonsense others spout. i'd be fairly relaxed about my atheism, i really don't let religion bother me, just see it as an absolute joke. hopefully a smallie of mine will develop the same attitude. this method was used by my parents, didn't screw me up too much- bar the eyes twitching and the neck spasms, but the doctor said that'll pass

Cabaal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i don't know, maybe.

As somebody that got married in a church to keep the peace, I can honestly say I'm part of the problem.

Ok on the census I don't and will never say I'm catholic but still I did the wrong thing by doing a church wedding as that kind of stuff gives power to the catholic church in Ireland. But with me the wrongs stop with that, their will be no christening for any kids I have.

biggest problem is obviously the religious gang sitting on boards of management in schools. they can decide between someone getting/ or not getting employment. shur even in the case of sexuality, if you're a gay teacher you keep your mouth shut as a religious school would probably move you along fairly quickly if they knew about it. i would know of two privately gay teachers who live absolute miles from where they teach so they can lead their lives as they wish. still a lot of hurdles to be overcome on this issue.

i respect anyone who makes a stand, but anyone choosing that they just don't want the hassle, or indeed aren't so offended by a bit of religious nonsense should be respected and allowed raise their own as they see fit.

religion won't be an issue for schools the day the church walks away from school patronage. until then.........

But there stems the problem, the longer people don't change the longer this crap goes on and the harder its made for people.

The more people that stand up and say their child isn't christened the easier it is to push this matter with the department of education,

jimmytwotimes 2013

Cabaal wrote: »

As somebody that got married in a church to keep the peace, I can honestly say I'm part of the problem.

Ok on the census I don't and will never say I'm catholic but still I did the wrong thing by doing a church wedding as that kind of stuff gives power to the catholic church in Ireland. But with me the wrongs stop with that, their will be no christening for any kids I have.



But there stems the problem, the longer people don't change the longer this crap goes on and the harder its made for people.

The more people that stand up and say their child isn't christened the easier it is to push this matter with the department of education,

i agree, i did the church wedding. didn't care what the priest was saying it didn't bother me. i do fill the census form as atheist.

unfortunately, in certain quarters, if you stand up and get a name as a bit of a mouth people can move you along- you're only hurting yourself in that scenario. not worth it, look after number one- you and the family. and think in your own head whatever you want.

i would think that the census form thing is a more likely way to force change anyway, rather than a local stand nobody will hear about. if some day the census returns a 10% catholic population in ireland, then the government would have to provide education as required by the public and church patronage would get shoved out. as it stands we're way off that. why screw yourself up locally if its not really going to make a difference?

Cabaal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i agree, i did the church wedding. didn't care what the priest was saying it didn't bother me. i do fill the census form as atheist.

unfortunately, in certain quarters, if you stand up and get a name as a bit of a mouth people can move you along- you're only hurting yourself in that scenario. not worth it, look after number one- you and the family. and think in your own head whatever you want.

i would think that the census form thing is a more likely way to force change anyway, rather than a local stand nobody will hear about. if some day the census returns a 10% catholic population in ireland, then the government would have to provide education as required by the public and church patronage would get shoved out. as it stands we're way off that. why screw yourself up locally if its not really going to make a difference?

How are you looking after yourself and your family when you are doing things to your family that you honestly really don't want to do?

Regretfully as we've seen, unless people stand up and are counted then stuff rarely changes and if it does then it'll change really, really slowly.

kylith

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

clue would be in the post, but not going into my own specifics. a decision like that could make things difficult for me personally, would love it to be otherwise.

Obviously I don't know your situation (though by your last post I suspect you may be a teacher and concerned about losing your job if your atheism was discovered), but I've found that once you're a grown-ass adult it's perfectly fine to use phrases like 'Because I don't believe in it', 'Do you have a problem with that?', 'If you don't like it you're free not to do it' and 'I'll thank you to mind your own damn business, thank you so very much'. Unless you are a teacher and your job would be on the line, in which case I can't say much other than it's time to get your union to start lobbying against religious discrimination in schools.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Cabaal wrote: »

How are you looking after yourself and your family when you are doing things to your family that you honestly really don't want to do?

by not caring that much about it? doesn't bother me, won't bother them and i'll still have a job and we can all eat and stay warm?

jimmytwotimes 2013

kylith wrote: »

Obviously I don't know your situation (though by your last post I suspect you may be a teacher and concerned about losing your job if your atheism was discovered), but I've found that once you're a grown-ass adult it's perfectly fine to use phrases like 'Because I don't believe in it', 'Do you have a problem with that?', 'If you don't like it you're free not to do it' and 'I'll thank you to mind your own damn business, thank you so very much'. Unless you are a teacher and your job would be on the line, in which case I can't say much other than it's time to get your union to start lobbying against religious discrimination in schools.

let me put it this way, i would know of a lady who got moved along from her area of employment when it emerged she was living with her boyfriend. the mind boggles i know, but that's reality unfortunately. obviously this was not the reason given for her not having work there,

................they may be deluded, but they're not stupid!

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

by not caring that much about it? doesn't bother me, won't bother them and i'll still have a job and we can all eat and stay warm?

Well, I for one don't want to send the message to my children that its okay to do something because everyone else is doing it and you don't ever want to be different and stand out from the crowd. I don't have to pretend to be or not be anything to keep my employment, but equally I don't have to pretend to my children that fibbing about our family's belief system is ok because its just how things are done.

Obliq

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

by not caring that much about it? doesn't bother me, won't bother them and i'll still have a job and we can all eat and stay warm?

.....Aaaand there's the church's power, right there. It's outrageous. I can understand how lives are affected by this (I know two teachers who don't dare speak up about religion being taken out of the school for fear of their jobs - and it's a real fear, not a baseless one), but when you say it doesn't bother you.....that's strange. The power they have over you makes me incredibly angry on your behalf, tbh.

kylith

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

let me put it this way, i would know of a lady who got moved along from her area of employment when it emerged she was living with her boyfriend. the mind boggles i know, but that's reality unfortunately. obviously this was not the reason given for her not having work there,

................they may be deluded, but they're not stupid!

And there was an openly gay male science teacher in my convent secondary school and no-one gave a damn. He kept his sexuality outside school, just like the straight teachers, and he was liked and respected.

Challenging attitudes is the only way to change them, though I do appreciate that it's difficult to do if your job is on the line.

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

Well, I for one don't want to send the message to my children that its okay to do something because everyone else is doing it and you don't ever want to be different and stand out from the crowd. I don't have to pretend to be or not be anything to keep my employment, but equally I don't have to pretend to my children that fibbing about our family's belief system is ok because its just how things are done.

fair enough, i do have to fib to keep my employment.

will your kids have santa?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Obliq wrote: »

The power they have over you makes me incredibly angry on your behalf, tbh.

thanks, but like i said it really doesn't bother me at all. all that bothers me is providing for my family and seeing them happy. principles are great if you can afford them.

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

fair enough, i do have to fib to keep my employment.

will your kids have santa?

Yeah, they will. That's not religion though. And I won't pretend we do Santa if we don't.

I can't afford not to have principles.

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

Yeah, they will. That's not religion though. And I won't pretend we do Santa if we don't.

I can't afford not to have principles.

but santa is lying too! and religious- St. Nick

like i said, food on the table comes first. we wouldn't be much good without it!!

Dfmnoc

Born an atheist raised a catholic. Dragged to mass kicking and screaming for nearly 14 years. Believe i'm owed 20k+ hours of my life back. Should be some way of sewing the c*nts

Turtwig

Dfmnoc wrote: »

Should be some way of sewing the c*nts

That's an odd fetish. :pac:

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

but santa is lying too! and religious- St. Nick

like i said, food on the table comes first. we wouldn't be much good without it!!

I can't understand your passivity. A private coporation is dictating how your family works, and all you can muster is a shoulder shrug.

Dfmnoc

Jernal wrote: »

That's an odd fetish. :pac:

was educated a catholic aswell

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

I can't understand your passivity. A private coporation is dictating how your family works, and all you can muster is a shoulder shrug.

not exactly dictating much to my family, just a small bit of rubbish they have to listen to occasionally. i don't mind it at all, a bit of hypocrisy is good for 'em, least they'll know it when they see it again!!

as a fella once said- there's one thing worse than a religious person, and thats a militant atheist!

thats a joke now people!

i would be wary of teaching kids to be always honest, forthright and upstanding. life don't work that way, they'll just end up disappointed.

Sarky

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i would be wary of teaching kids to be always honest, forthright and upstanding. life don't work that way, they'll just end up disappointed.

o_O

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

not exactly dictating much to my family, just a small bit of rubbish they have to listen to occasionally. i don't mind it at all, a bit of hypocrisy is good for 'em, least they'll know it when they see it again!!

as a fella once said- there's one thing worse than a religious person, and thats a militant atheist!

thats a joke now people!

i would be wary of teaching kids to be always honest, forthright and upstanding. life don't work that way, they'll just end up disappointed.

I.....don't get this. I really don't. Do you actually have children? What will you do when the lie to you about something?

kylith

lazygal wrote: »

I can't understand your passivity. A private coporation is dictating how your family works, and all you can muster is a shoulder shrug.

If his career depends on it, I can understand it. Sometimes a man must swallow his pride so his children can swallow bread.

That said, I'd be looking for a new job every second I could.

lazygal

kylith wrote: »

If his career depends on it, I can understand it. Sometimes a man must swallow his pride so his children can swallow bread.

That said, I'd be looking for a new job every second I could.

If the poster is a teacher in a permanent established position and is a member of a union, I would be very surprised if he/she would be removed from the position. It is incredibly difficult to fire a teacher in Ireland.

SpaceTime

Nope!

My religion teacher (a priest) regularly referred to me as a heathen!

He also kept telling me that I would be banned from making my confirmation if I didn't go to mass and that would mean not being able to go to secondary school.

I also asked him if Mary had just gotten pregnant and had to make up an elaborate story and it got out of hand.

I got thrown out and a letter sent home saying I was disruptive!

So, in short no..I've always been a heathen, atheist sceptic.

I didn't fall for that tooth fairy and Santa stuff either

jimmytwotimes 2013

lazygal wrote: »

If the poster is a teacher in a permanent established position and is a member of a union, I would be very surprised if he/she would be removed from the position. It is incredibly difficult to fire a teacher in Ireland.

and if they are not?

lazygal

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

and if they are not?

Are you in that position?