simple question

shopaholic01

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Would I like to work as a prostitute? No
That's a personal thing for me, it would only be something I would consider if I had absolutely no other option. All my female friends assume it's something that happens out of desperation or coercion.

However, a lot of women willingly do. If it's properly regulated it becomes another job.

Would I think any less of a man who paid for sex? No, unless I was in a relationship with him at the time. So what if a man chooses to pay for a service he wants?

I also wouldn't think any less of a woman who paid for sex.

As for understanding male sexuality - well all you can do is have an honest discussion with a partner, find out what each others wants/needs and then decide what both are comfortable with.

I will never understand what it's like to have sex as man. If I could spend a day as a man I would try to have as much sex as possible to find out.

A woman's libido will vary dramartically during her menstrual cycle and will be affected by hormonal contraception, but otherwise I doubt there's any real gender differences regarding sex drive. In some relationships I have had a higher sex drive, in others a lower one.

I hate these kind of 'what are the differences between men and women' debates. We have more similarities than differences.

It is not a male verses a female issue at all, nor do I mean it in a personal way I have been very lucky with any man I have had a relationship with have a very happy second marriage. However The sort of different reasoning around the ethics of sex ( not actual sex ) between SOME women and men still astonishes me at times.

starWave

mariaalice wrote: »

It is not a male verses a female issue at all, nor do I mean it in a personal way I have been very lucky with any man I have had a relationship with have a very happy second marriage. However The sort of different reasoning around the ethics of sex ( not actual sex ) between SOME women and men still astonishes me at times.

What reasoning of ethics astonishes you? usually its down to hard wired evolutionary strategies, like its human instinct.

Is it just the fact of paying for it?

starWave

starWave wrote: »

What reasoning of ethics astonishes you? usually its down to hard wired evolutionary strategies, like its human instinct.

Well if it is all biologically controlled then the male and female are operating with two different and some what contradictory strategies when they getting in to a relationship, so that explain it all, but I suspect we are more that our biology.

starWave

mariaalice wrote: »

Well if it is all biologically controlled then the male and female are operating with two different and some what contradictory strategies when they getting in to a relationship, so that explain it all, but I suspect we are more that our biology.

Yes, sometimes the strategies contradict, but in general they align. That's why people have relationship issues, and why people cheat. And of course people are different, and live in different environments, so they choose different strategies. So its not just biology, but if you lump all men and women into groups, then the biology is the only common factor.

clairefontaine

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

women seem to understand male sexuality before marriage anyway, after that things become a bit more "complicated"

Lol.

shopaholic01

mariaalice wrote: »

It is not a male verses a female issue at all, nor do I mean it in a personal way I have been very lucky with any man I have had a relationship with have a very happy second marriage. However The sort of different reasoning around the ethics of sex ( not actual sex ) between SOME women and men still astonishes me at times.

I don't understand what you mean about ''different reasoning around the ethics of sex''. I think you mean individual preferences, which will vary greatly. A healthy relationship will be one where both parties have a similar outlook/values.

28064212

mariaalice wrote: »

However The sort of different reasoning around the ethics of sex ( not actual sex ) between SOME women and men still astonishes me at times.

I think you mean SOME women and SOME men. And some men and some other men. And some women and some other women. But that's a bit clunky, so it can all be replaced by "some individuals"

clairefontaine

Also are you talking about Irish men and women, or any men and women?

starWave

clairefontaine wrote: »

Also are you talking about Irish men and women, or any men and women?

I doubt Irish men and women are that different than any men and women. I'm sure there are cultural differences and variations, but not enough to astonish someone.

clairefontaine

starWave wrote: »

I doubt Irish men and women are that different than any men and women. I'm sure there are cultural differences and variations, but not enough to astonish someone.

I disagree. The world is a large and varied place.

The Corinthian

starWave wrote: »

I doubt Irish men and women are that different than any men and women. I'm sure there are cultural differences and variations, but not enough to astonish someone.

Oh, you'd be surprised.

Attitudes twoards sex, sexual practices, fidelity/monogamy, pornography, sex toys, prostitution and all things sexual can vary wildly. The average Berlin woman will have far more 'liberal' views on the above than the average Irish man, who in turn will have more 'liberal' views than the average man or a woman from Tripoli.

This is not to suggest that we don't all share the same base anthropological instincts, but culture plays a large part in how we behave or view things.

starWave

The Corinthian wrote: »

Oh, you'd be surprised.

Attitudes twoards sex, sexual practices, fidelity/monogamy, pornography, sex toys, prostitution and all things sexual can vary wildly. The average Berlin woman will have far more 'liberal' views on the above than the average Irish man, who in turn will have more 'liberal' views than the average man or a woman from Tripoli.

This is not to suggest that we don't all share the same base anthropological instincts, but culture plays a large part in how we behave or view things.

Ok the averages may be different, but you will still find such liberal people everywhere. You could still find a liberal person in Ireland, as liberal as the most liberal person in Berlin.

cantdecide

Really, OP, you're in a whole world of individual tastes, individual ethics and morals, individual pleasures, individual circumstances (age, marital status etc), individual character types and how it all melds with the opposing characteristics of the potential/ likely/ prosepective/ hopeful other. That's before you get into the cheating/ deceit/ misrepresentation. All THAT'S before you think about the things like co-dependency and all the other stuff that makes for unhealthy (often long-term) relationships.

If I were you, OP, I'd just sit back and thank whichever higher power you subscribe to for your, seemingly, easy relationship/ sex life because not every circle can be squared. That's the only lesson here.

The Corinthian

starWave wrote: »

Ok the averages may be different, but you will still find such liberal people everywhere. You could still find a liberal person in Ireland, as liberal as the most liberal person in Berlin.

The exception to the rule is not a very convincing argument.

Slide to power off

starWave wrote: »

Ok the averages may be different, but you will still find such liberal people everywhere. You could still find a liberal person in Ireland, as liberal as the most liberal person in Berlin.

Ah come on, do we really need to hear that the sky is blue. Of course there is variation in each group, it's the differing averages that's interesting.

starWave

Slide to power off wrote: »

Ah come on, do we really need to hear that the sky is blue. Of course there is variation in each group, it's the differing averages that's interesting.

What I think is interesting is what the OP is actually astonished about. So far, I can't figure it out, as male sexuality or the ethics of sex is so broad. I don't see the point of going into specific regions at this point in the discussion.

Yes, I've noticed a lot of differences in the sexuality of people from different countries, but thats not so astonishing. Seems like the OP is tip toeing around the idea of prostitution, and mens and women's views on it, but thats just my guess. Seems to have been the topic of a few threads on here recently.

The Corinthian

starWave wrote: »

What I think is interesting is what the OP is actually astonished about. So far, I can't figure it out, as male sexuality or the ethics of sex is so broad. I don't see the point of going into specific regions at this point in the discussion.

Her cultural background strongly affects how she views sex and sexuality is the point. Where we come from or grew up affects us all in this regard and it's quite difficult to shake that sort of thing - it actually takes a serious effort to step back and objectively consider these things rationally and most people are not capable (or just don't bother) of doing this to any serious degree.

Seems like the OP is tip toeing around the idea of prostitution, and mens and women's views on it, but thats just my guess. Seems to have been the topic of a few threads on here recently.

Prostitution appears to be a hot topic at present, I expect because of the proposed criminalization of clients in Ireland.

Personally, I've mixed views on the subject, but I do feel the anti-legalization side of the debate is too reliant on appeals to emotion, dubious 'facts' and moral outrage, which makes it difficult to find reasoned arguments or evidence to allow one to assess. Papers on the subject that have not been written by someone with an agenda are nigh impossible to find.

I also cannot help but feel that the tendency to see prostitution in terms of a male client / female prostitute betrays self-interest in people's positions on the subject - both genders, but especially women. It's almost as if some women dislike the idea of prostitution, not because they care about the welfare of prostitutes, but because they don't want their men to have the option to cheat on them.

MaxWig

The Corinthian wrote: »

Her cultural background strongly affects how she views sex and sexuality is the point. Where we come from or grew up affects us all in this regard and it's quite difficult to shake that sort of thing - it actually takes a serious effort to step back and objectively consider these things rationally and most people are not capable (or just don't bother) of doing this to any serious degree.

Prostitution appears to be a hot topic at present, I expect because of the proposed criminalization of clients in Ireland.

Personally, I've mixed views on the subject, but I do feel the anti-legalization side of the debate is too reliant on appeals to emotion, dubious 'facts' and moral outrage, which makes it difficult to find reasoned arguments or evidence to allow one to assess. Papers on the subject that have not been written by someone with an agenda are nigh impossible to find.

I also cannot help but feel that the tendency to see prostitution in terms of a male client / female prostitute betrays self-interest in people's positions on the subject - both genders, but especially women. It's almost as if some women dislike the idea of prostitution, not because they care about the welfare of prostitutes, but because they don't want their men to have the option to cheat on them.

I would go further.

Studies on why people have such strong reactions to sex in general have suggested that is is the inherent 'creatureliness' of sex that derives repulsion on one hand, and powerful attraction on the other.

I think that it takes so much effort, unconsciously, to transcend those base desires, that bearing witness to someone who is not conflicted is too much for some.

Its similar to the studies on homophobia.

Those who exhibit the most virulent homophobia are inevitably those who struggle the most with their own sexuality. This has been proven time and again.

I would love to see similar studies in areas like 'opinion on prostitution'

MaxWig

MaxWig wrote: »

I would go further.

Studies on why people have such strong reactions to sex in general have suggested that is is the inherent 'creatureliness' of sex that derives repulsion on one hand, and powerful attraction on the other.

I think that it takes so much effort, unconsciously, to transcend those base desires, that bearing witness to someone who is not conflicted is too much for some.

Its similar to the studies on homophobia.

Those who exhibit the most virulent homophobia are inevitably those who struggle the most with their own sexuality. This has been proven time and again.

I would love to see similar studies in areas like 'opinion on prostitution'

Of course there is a certain amount of our thought that are protectionism but it is way too simple an explanation for everything.

I am a product of my age and background, but I do try to get our side that when looking at a issues. I don't understand why people get annoyed with other people opinions.

One of the thing I like about boards is that it is a sort of..ask me anything, because in real life ( as opposed to the virtual one ) simple manners and social graces prevents you enquiring about some issues The reason why people do things and why they hold certain opinions are very varied, but there are underlining common themes, also boards is great for making you perhaps consider the issue from a new angle.

A resent example a woman is in the process of getting engaged to her boyfriend who tell her in all seriousness that the reason he goes to the pub every Sunday afternoon is because there is noting else to do! when I even vaguely alluded to the ridiculousness of saying they have to go to the pub because there is nothing else to do, I got a very frosty reaction. On boards I can ask why do people go merrily ahead and marry people when there are huge red flags in the relationships. In other words boards is a great way to ask about something you cant ask about in real life.

clairefontaine

MaxWig wrote: »

I would go further.

Studies on why people have such strong reactions to sex in general have suggested that is is the inherent 'creatureliness' of sex that derives repulsion on one hand, and powerful attraction on the other.

I think that it takes so much effort, unconsciously, to transcend those base desires, that bearing witness to someone who is not conflicted is too much for some.

Its similar to the studies on homophobia.

Those who exhibit the most virulent homophobia are inevitably those who struggle the most with their own sexuality. This has been proven time and again.

I would love to see similar studies in areas like 'opinion on prostitution'

A lot has to do with your own cultures attitude to the body.

clairefontaine

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course there is a certain amount of our thought that are protectionism but it is way too simple an explanation for everything.

I am a product of my age and background, but I do try to get our side that when looking at a issues. I don't understand why people get annoyed with other people opinions.

One of the thing I like about boards is that it is a sort of..ask me anything, because in real life ( as opposed to the virtual one ) simple manners and social graces prevents you enquiring about some issues The reason why people do things and why they hold certain opinions are very varied, but there are underlining common themes, also boards is great for making you perhaps consider the issue from a new angle.

A resent example a woman is in the process of getting engaged to her boyfriend who tell her in all seriousness that the reason he goes to the pub every Sunday afternoon is because there is noting else to do! when I even vaguely alluded to the ridiculousness of saying they have to go to the pub because there is nothing else to do, I got a very frosty reaction. On boards I can ask why do people go merrily ahead and marry people when there are huge red flags in the relationships. In other words boards is a great way to ask about something you cant ask about in real life.

I agree with him. There is nothing else to do but go to the pub on a Sunday afternoon. Especially in the winter.

What are you talking about? What are you asking? Why do people get married when there are red flags? Because people see what they want to see.

Why do people use prostitutes? Because they have needs.

CarlDunne1979

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course there is a certain amount of our thought that are protectionism but it is way too simple an explanation for everything.

I am a product of my age and background, but I do try to get our side that when looking at a issues. I don't understand why people get annoyed with other people opinions.

If someone says they like vanilla coke, I will have no problem whatsoever with their opinion even though I think it's gick. However, when someone starts condemning adult choices due to their own personal fears and insecurities, here's where a problem comes into the equation for me.

CarlDunne1979

The Corinthian wrote: »

Her cultural background strongly affects how she views sex and sexuality is the point. Where we come from or grew up affects us all in this regard and it's quite difficult to shake that sort of thing - it actually takes a serious effort to step back and objectively consider these things rationally and most people are not capable (or just don't bother) of doing this to any serious degree.

This site seems to be a hot pocket for people with SERIOUS problems with objectivity.

The Corinthian

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't understand why people get annoyed with other people opinions.

Because people get annoyed with prejudiced, simplistic or often stupid views; it is a reminder that in a democracy we are still subject to the views of morons.

For example, you citied prostitution as something that victimized women and children. In doing so you casually ignored that there is a substantial number of male prostitutes out there in Ireland too - certainly far more than there are child prostitutes (if there even is such a thing in Ireland).

All such prejudices do is perpetuate the issue as a male versus female thing and betray a complete lack of compassion for many of the 'victims' of prostitution - attitudes that can be seen in legislation and many of the groups that 'protect' prostitutes.

Peoples opinions can ultimately translate to real World injustices, at the end of the day, so there's little surprise that other people get upset by them.

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

This site seems to be a hot pocket for people with SERIOUS problems with objectivity.

This site is only a reflection of the outside World; we don't realize this mainly because, thankfully, people generally keep their opinions to themselves out there, as mariaalice pointed out.

clairefontaine

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because people get annoyed with prejudiced, simplistic or often stupid views; it is a reminder that in a democracy we are still subject to the views of morons.

For example, you citied prostitution as something that victimized women and children. In doing so you casually ignored that there is a substantial number of male prostitutes out there in Ireland too - certainly far more than there are child prostitutes (if there even is such a thing in Ireland).

All such prejudices do is perpetuate the issue as a male versus female thing and betray a complete lack of compassion for many of the 'victims' of prostitution - attitudes that can be seen in legislation and many of the groups that 'protect' prostitutes.

Peoples opinions can ultimately translate to real World injustices, at the end of the day, so there's little surprise that other people get upset by them.

This site is only a reflection of the outside World; we don't realize this mainly because, thankfully, people generally keep their opinions to themselves out there, as mariaalice pointed out.

Aren't there rent boys in Phoenix park?

You said there are more male prostitutes than children prostitutes.

Do you have anything to back that up?

I'd speculate some or not all of those rent boys might actually be children?

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

Aren't there rent boys in Phoenix park?

Apparently so.

You said there are more male prostitutes than children prostitutes.

Do you have anything to back that up?

I'd ask much the same of you - do you have anything to back up the contrary? For bonus points, the source has to be impartial - and that's where it gets difficult, because the entire area is suffocated with groups attempting to push one agenda or another.

Many years ago, I walked through Palmerstown Park, at night, with some friends on the way to a party; the central area of the park was a notorious area for 'rent boys' and indeed a half dozen or so where standing around waiting for 'business'. While it wasn't exactly a well lit area, it was clear that none were under the age of 20 or 25. Also, while I've never been to a brothel in Ireland, I've seen prostitutes on the streets over the years and while many dress up to look young, if you get close enough you quickly realize that they certainly are not.

To me it would stand to reason that there would be more male than child prostitutes, if for no other reason than demand. While demand may exist for child prostitutes, it's very unlikely that it would be on a par for male ones; regardless of whether they are servicing men or women.

I'd speculate some or not all of those rent boys might actually be children?

The term 'rent boy' is just a term - don't take it too literally.

MaxWig

clairefontaine wrote: »

A lot has to do with your own cultures attitude to the body.

Sure its cultural.

The current homophobia in Russia is cultural.
But 'culture' is simply the name given to the prevailing attitudes, opinions, behaviours etc. at a given time for a given people.

It does not provide legitimacy.

And it does not make the 'homophobia' in Russia any different to homophobia anywhere else simply because it has been provided a voice by 'culture'.

The same applies to attitudes to prostitution here.

Or to any phenomenon, anywhere.

You could say that 'culture' is simply the collective attempt of a people to transcend their baseness, their plain, dirty, animalistic creatureliness.

Happy thoughts

clairefontaine

@ Corinthian.

Thanks for the story, but that doesn't really give a clearer picture of a any facts on this subject.

In guess there is no way of knowing if there are more or less adult male prostitutes than child prostitutes, and by child I mean under 18, male or female.

Anyhow, ye there are male prostitutes, not to be forgotten for sure.

clairefontaine

MaxWig wrote: »

Sure its cultural.

The current homophobia in Russia is cultural.
But 'culture' is simply the name given to the prevailing attitudes, opinions, behaviours etc. at a given time for a given people.

It does not provide legitimacy.

And it does not make the 'homophobia' in Russia any different to homophobia anywhere else simply because it has been provided a voice by 'culture'.

The same applies to attitudes to prostitution here.

Or to any phenomenon, anywhere.

You could say that 'culture' is simply the collective attempt of a people to transcend their baseness, their plain, dirty, animalistic creatureliness.

Happy thoughts

Perhaps. The reaction to Russia's homophobia is unbelievable. Seriously. Homosexuals are a very small part of the population. Liberals are so outraged they are boycotting vodka.

Also, I don't know enough about Russia to know if its their culture, or if its Putin.

Now, what annoys me about this, is selective outrage. How about the default position of circumsizing infant males in the US? How about that for phobic abusive assault on male sexuality? Do these same wishy washy dumb liberals care about that and boycott Budweiser? No, they want to stick rainbow flags outside the Russian embassy. Idiots.

Not sure if homophobia is same as discomfort with prostitution.

I get what you were saying in your previous post and its worthy of thought. There is something there alright. However, we like to think of parity and mutual choice in sex and when that gets compromised it produces disquietude. When you pay someone for a service, they are there to serve you, the parity is lost. I wonder how much prostitutes can discriminate.

CarlDunne1979

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

If someone says they like vanilla coke, I will have no problem whatsoever with their opinion even though I think it's gick. However, when someone starts condemning adult choices due to their own personal fears and insecurities, here's where a problem comes into the equation for me.

No body is condemning anyone for their choices, disagreeing with some ones choices is not condemning them, subtle difference.

Yep you are right anyone who is uneasy with prostitution. Its all because they are repressed, fear their own sexuality, are afraid there own partner is going to be unfaithful with a prostitute or are religious. The the vast amount of philosophical and ethical debates around the issue really have nothing to do with it.


Peace to everyone.