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Gardai operating 'gotcha' speed traps.

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    How can you possible know that I was not driving at a safe speed. You do not have to know exactly what your speed is to know that you are driving safely and carefully.

    You where not driving at a safe speed because you don't know what speed you where driving at. You claim that you where going at a safe speed but how do you know it was safe seen as you don't know the speed?
    Like I said did you pass your theory test by claiming that you didn't know the answer but knew it was right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    By your own admission you don't know what speed you were driving at.

    How can you know that your unknown speed was a "safe" speed?
    Many years of accident-free, (not even a prang), driving experience. To follow your logic, if your speedometer stopped working for some reason, you would have to stop and abandon your car because you could not drive safely without it. Your point is getting a bit silly here.:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Who came up with the speed limits?

    There's method in my madness here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I love this one. It keeps showing up on Boards like a bad penny, and it might help to explain why speeding is so common.

    Firstly, the words "exactly", "constantly" and "staring" are red herrings.

    Secondly, speed is the main source of risk.

    On a 50 km/h road, which type of behaviour do you think poses the bigger risk in relative terms: (a) driving at 50 km/h or slower and occasionally checking the speedometer; (b) driving at, say, 65 km/h or faster and not checking the speedometer?

    And which type of driver should be prosecuted?
    Good intentions but a little misguided and misinformed. At 50kph, which would mostly be in streets/built, you should be keeping your eyes on the road to watch out for kids, bikes, cars, busses, pedestrian crossings, signs etc. etc. That moment you choose to check your speedo could be far more costly than €80. Estimated cost to put it in such horrific terms, to the state of a life is between one and 2 million euro.

    And to continue the stark reality, speed cited as the cause of accidents resulting in death is between 10 and 20% over the last few decades, whereas being on the wrong side of the road is between 40 and 50%
    Drink accounts for a good portion of the remaining.

    Being on the wrong side of the road is a behaviour I see every day and endemic in Irish driving, so no surprise in the real statistics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I never quite understand this whole idea of hidden speed traps. Great, you've caught the person for speeding but usually a lot of drivers never ever see the speed trap to begin with. A more effective way to slow people down would be to have the speed check highly visible. Yeah, you'd probably catch a lot less people because they'd be tipped off but you'd slow them down - not have them speeding, possibly dangerously, then catch them and drop them a fine.

    I think it'd be worth our while implicating the Russian Inflatable tank manouevre. Place several inflatable speed camera vans on each road in the country. People wouldn't really be able to tell which is the real van and so they'd have a very strong compulsion to slow down. No guarantee that they would as the thing about folks who break the laws is that they don't anticipate they'll ever get caught.

    I'm all for improving road safety but the way road deaths from year to year are used and compared to say to speed traps and the like are working is farcical. One year? There's tonnes of other reasons why deaths on the road may vary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,201 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    This obsession with numbers on a speedo (which over-reads by as much as 10% anyway) is exactly what it wrong with Irish motorists really.

    It's the same type that dawdle along on the N/M roads holding up a line of traffic because "it's a limit, not a target"

    Like poor persecuted Mr 007 here I too don't worry too much about the speed limits. Most of them are nonsensical anyway and completely inappropriate for the stretch of roads they apply too (eg; country laneways with 80 km/h limits)

    That's not to say that I tear around the place everywhere at 150 km/h, but I pay far more attention to things like...

    - How busy the road is (other cars, cyclists, pedestrians)
    - Where I am (in town, passing a school)
    - Time of day/visibility (is it raining, dark, dusk or otherwise hard to see)
    - Road surface/condition (is it pot-holed, temporary surfaced, slick from the rain showers)

    All of these mean I'll be generally under the posted limit regardless of what it says I can do!

    But equally.. if I'm on one of our new-ish and deserted motorways (M3, M7 after Kildare etc) I will have no problem doing the limit either

    I also check my mirrors constantly, look before I change lanes, have my dip lights/DRLs on regardless and know how to indicate and use roundabouts! :) I'm not saying I'm the perfect driver either though, but awareness and cop-on is far more important as a driver than a blind obedience of "the rules" IMO


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Many years of accident-free, (not even a prang), driving experience. To follow your logic, if your speedometer stopped working for some reason, you would have to stop and abandon your car because you could not drive safely without it. Your point is getting a bit silly here.:confused:

    Actually that's a great point. I have been driving for a long time - over two decades. Husband says I drive badly, but I have never had an accident. Maybe others drive better than me, thus no accident.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    wil wrote: »
    Being on the wrong side of the road is a behaviour I see every day and endemic in Irish driving, so no surprise in the real statistics.

    Yep, I see that too and the failure to understand how roundabouts work. It's not rocket science.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Jester252 wrote: »
    You where not driving at a safe speed because you don't know what speed you where driving at. You claim that you where going at a safe speed but how do you know it was safe seen as you don't know the speed?
    Like I said did you pass your theory test by claiming that you didn't know the answer but knew it was right?
    I don't know if you are a driver or not, but if you are and you cannot drive safely without looking at your speedometer all the time, then you should not be on the road. Good driving is about good judgement and awareness of what's going on around you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Surprise surprise the usual high horses are arriving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Many years of accident-free, (not even a prang), driving experience.

    Just on this. If a person smokes from birth until 70 there's no guarantee they'll get any ill effects from the cigarettes. They can be very very lucky. Just because you haven't had an accident yet is a terrible way to justify you are safe driver. Likewise, just because you've had an accident wouldn't be necessarily be justification for you being a bad driver. Your behaviour and attitude on the road is what counts. You can only control your vehicle, you've no control over the the road conditions or the actions of other agents on the road.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying you aren't a safe driver. :) Just saying fortune or circumstances often plays a bigger role on the road than drivers like to admit. 9/10 times a person will get away with an idiotic overtaking manoeuvre but it only takes just the once.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Good driving is about good judgement and awareness of what's going on around you.[/QUO

    So true.
    Observe, anticipate, and if there might be a problem think of how you'll get out of it in a safe way


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    By your own admission you don't know what speed you were driving at.

    How can you know that your unknown speed was a "safe" speed?

    I saw several motors pulled in.

    He wasn't (nor was I)

    Probably safe to assume he wasn't speeding so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I don't know if you are a driver or not, but if you are and you cannot drive safely without looking at your speedometer all the time, then you should not be on the road. Good driving is about good judgement and awareness of what's going on around you.

    You right good judgement and awareness make good drivers. I never said that you need to stare at the speedometer but you need to know your speed. A speedometer is something you can read in a second or less. They are designed to be read quickly. Under your definition of a good driver you not a good driver. Why? You don't have good awareness because you didn't know what speed you where at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    Hurtlocker,
    I'm not on a high horse, maybe I am, sorry.
    On an average day I drive for two hours plus, and it's not city driving.

    I am shocked at what I see some days....not most days....but some days.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    wil wrote: »
    Good intentions but a little misguided and misinformed. At 50kph, which would mostly be in streets/built, you should be keeping your eyes on the road to watch out for kids, bikes, cars, busses, pedestrian crossings, signs etc. etc.

    That moment you choose to check your speedo could be far more costly than €80. Estimated cost to put it in such horrific terms, to the state of a life is between one and 2 million euro.

    And to continue the stark reality, speed cited as the cause of accidents resulting in death is between 10 and 20% over the last few decades, whereas being on the wrong side of the road is between 40 and 50%
    Drink accounts for a good portion of the remaining.

    Being on the wrong side of the road is a behaviour I see every day and endemic in Irish driving, so no surprise in the real statistics.



    And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

    Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    This obsession with numbers on a speedo (which over-reads by as much as 10% anyway) is exactly what it wrong with Irish motorists really.

    It's the same type that dawdle along on the N/M roads holding up a line of traffic because "it's a limit, not a target"

    Like poor persecuted Mr 007 here I too don't worry too much about the speed limits. Most of them are nonsensical anyway and completely inappropriate for the stretch of roads they apply too (eg; country laneways with 80 km/h limits)


    Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Mattyy wrote: »
    Just wondering what type of speed traps do they have

    1. Mobile safety camera (automatic fine)

    2. Laser/radar
    (pulled over by them and fined)

    3. Fixed location safety camera
    (Automatic fine)

    4. Traffic car
    (must pull you over to issue fine)

    Someone told me that a traffic car
    Parked on the side of the road can
    Issue you a fixed fine and penalty like the gatso van ... The info on various
    Sites says they must pull you

    Any views on this ?

    There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

    The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

    Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

    Do you ever get bored of arguing on every single speed camera thread?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭Mattyy


    HurtLocker wrote: »
    There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

    The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.


    What's pacing ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Jernal wrote: »
    Just on this. If a person smokes from birth until 70 there's no guarantee they'll get any ill effects from the cigarettes. They can be very very lucky. Just because you haven't had an accident yet is a terrible way to justify you are safe driver. Likewise, just because you've had an accident wouldn't be necessarily be justification for you being a bad driver. Your behaviour and attitude on the road is what counts. You can only control your vehicle, you've no control over the the road conditions or the actions of other agents on the road.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying you aren't a safe driver. :) Just saying fortune or circumstances often plays a bigger role on the road than drivers like to admit. 9/10 times a person will get away with an idiotic overtaking manoeuvre but it only takes just the once.
    I take your point that you can be lucky but because my job involves a lot of driving I would estimate that I have driven over 1 million miles including driving in most European countries and in the US, I can claim some of my 'luck' must be due to good driving. I have never had a penalty point on my licence or any penalty for any traffic violation in any other country I've driven in. So I must be very, very lucky.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    a relation of mine drives a hospital bus (as a volunteer) a couple of times a week. Some months ago he got a letter in the post from the speed van crowd, to say he had been doing 97kph in an 80kph zone, and that he was being fined whatever amount.

    So he took the tachograph out of the bus and checked it to the time and date he was being accused of speeding, it turns out he was doing 82kph at the time.. and the tac doesn't lie. So he is going to take it as far as he can, radio shows, newspapers etc. also, the bus owner is refusing to pay it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,201 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    HurtLocker wrote: »
    There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

    The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.

    There are a few fixed cameras around the place alright (M1 outside Drogheda southbound springs to mind, also just up from Swords after the Topaz garage. There's ones (to be installed) on the M50 too at Blanch and Exit 12)

    Unless they pull you in you'll probably be fine - unless it's a van or they have a camera on a tripod.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭Mattyy


    Mattyy wrote: »
    What's pacing ?

    Oh pacing I get you sorry I read it wrong you explained it in the same sentence :) thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    See it from my point of view, and I am no law breaker.

    I drive for 20/25 minutes at 100 km an hour.

    I arrive on the's outskirts of a town, speed limit 60 km.
    So I go from 100 to 60.

    A very short space from the 60km to 50km.

    100 to 60 is crazy. There are no houses or anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Mattyy wrote: »
    What's pacing ?

    If they see a car they think is speeding they match the speed of their patrol car with the "offending ve-ha-cle". If the cars speedo is over the limit by too much (Garda's discretion) they pull the car and give out points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    a relation of mine drives a hospital bus (as a volunteer) a couple of times a week. Some months ago he got a letter in the post from the speed van crowd, to say he had been doing 97kph in an 80kph zone, and that he was being fined whatever amount.

    So he took the tachograph out of the bus and checked it to the time and date he was being accused of speeding, it turns out he was doing 82kph at the time.. and the tac doesn't lie. So he is going to take it as far as he can, radio shows, newspapers etc. also, the bus owner is refusing to pay it.

    I got one a few weeks back to say I was doing 95 in an 80 zone in Dungarvin County Waterford.

    problem. I've never been in Dungarvin in my life. I was also in Cookstown in County Tyrone that whole week on a work project.

    currently appealing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    HurtLocker wrote: »
    Do you ever get bored of arguing on every single speed camera thread?



    It does get a bit boring from time to time because very few of the speed fans ever manage to come up with any arguments other than the usual regurgitated guff, mangled stats and assorted flummery.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,201 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.
    Not at all..

    If you want to dawdle along at 10-20 km/h below the limit when it's perfectly safe and appropriate to do the limit, you are free to do so.. but NOT to hold up a line of cars behind you!

    Move over and let them pass when possible (I'm not suggesting anyone should drive into a ditch either)

    What you're describing above (bolded) is inconsiderate driving and without due care and attention.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Not at all..

    If you want to dawdle along at 10-20 km/h below the limit when it's perfectly safe and appropriate to do the limit, you are free to do so.. but NOT to hold up a line of cars behind you!

    Move over and let them pass when possible (I'm not suggesting anyone should drive into a ditch either)

    What you're describing above (bolded) is inconsiderate driving and without due care and attention.



    You keep returning to the specific topic of "dawdling" which suggests an obsession, to use your own term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    HurtLocker wrote: »
    If they see a car they think is speeding they match the speed of their patrol car with the "offending ve-ha-cle". If the cars speedo is over the limit by too much (Garda's discretion) they pull the car and give out points.

    I don't know about the individual guards. But I believe the machine detectors have to allow for a tolerance value of 10%. If your vehicle says you're going at 100km/hr the reality is you could going anywhere above or under that amount depending on the vehicle manufacturer's tolerance. Usually leeway is given so that if your car is clocked at 110km/hr in a 100km zone it's deemed acceptable. After all, the driver might not have known his speedometer is 10km/hr too slow. I'd expect the Guards pacing probably have to take into account something similar or have just been told some arbitrary figure like 12km/hr over the limit.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,201 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    You keep returning to the specific topic of "dawdling" which suggests an obsession, to use your own term.

    Driving a car isn't a right, it's a privilege - and there are many Irish drivers out there who frankly shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

    - Poor awareness of what's going on around them
    - Maneuvering without looking or indicating
    - Poor lane discipline or the "I'm in the right" types on the motorway
    - Phone glued to their ear as they drive along
    - Doing 80 km/h on a 100 km/h wide stretch of road.. and continuing to do 80 as they reach the next town
    - No/minimal lights in bad weather or at night

    etc etc.. I could go on but we've all seen examples of this every day

    And yes, if you are incapable or unwilling to drive at the posted limit where the surface, time of day and conditions (weather, traffic etc) allow for it AND by doing so you are impeding the progress of others then yes, you should get off the road!

    It's probably a good thing we don't have autobahn's in Ireland with the behavior and attitudes above


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Driving a car isn't a right, it's a privilege - and there are many Irish drivers out there who frankly shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

    - Poor awareness of what's going on around them
    - Maneuvering without looking or indicating
    - Poor lane discipline or the "I'm in the right" types on the motorway
    - Phone glued to their ear as they drive along
    - Doing 80 km/h on a 100 km/h wide stretch of road.. and continuing to do 80 as they reach the next town
    - No/minimal lights in bad weather or at night

    etc etc.. I could go on but we've all seen examples of this every day


    Yes, you could go on:

    Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
    Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
    Dangerous overtaking
    Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
    Failing to yield at roundabouts
    Driving on footpaths
    Parking on footpaths

    And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

    Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.


    Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.
    and on and on

    Having learned and driven on the most consistently safe roads in the world, I place more faith in their generations of much researched stats, and funnily enough they also don't place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents.

    And I don't think anyone else interprets driving as being a number.
    It is entirely relative and dependent on a dozen or more factors at any particular moment. Most people don't get upset if they cant put an exact figure on current speed without checking. But that doesn't mean not occasionally "multitasking":rolleyes: and checking as appropriate. Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.

    I have a fair idea (sorry not perfect) of what speed I am doing relative to whats going on around me. That's what really matters when it comes to collisions. I just add that to the 924705kph I'm already doing.:rolleyes:

    Given the obsession over figures, it would probably be better to concentrate more on the road than the speedometer, safer for all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Yes, you could go on:

    Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
    Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
    Dangerous overtaking
    Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
    Failing to yield at roundabouts
    Driving on footpaths
    Parking on footpaths

    And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.
    So ignore the list you just put. Oh gawd!!!

    You just arrived in from the 19th century?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,201 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Yes, you could go on:

    Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
    Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
    Dangerous overtaking
    Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
    Failing to yield at roundabouts
    Driving on footpaths
    Parking on footpaths

    And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.

    I actually completely agree with almost everything you've said there. :)

    However, it's not "speed" or even "excess speed" that causes the danger.. it's INAPPROPRIATE speed that causes the issues!

    Example: 5-10 km/h over a 50 km/h limit in a built-up area or outside a school IS indeed a danger and inappropriate and completely unacceptable... however, the same 5-10 km/h over on a deserted motorway is no risk to anyone*

    (* = obviously assuming the car/tyres etc are in good working order and so on)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    wil wrote: »
    Having learned and driven on the most consistently safe roads in the world, I place more faith in their generations of much researched stats, and funnily enough they also don't place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents.

    [...]

    Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.


    In what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed"?

    Who said anything about 'stopping to monotask'? If you can't check your speedometer occasionally while driving then I have to wonder about your ability to multi-task, driving being an everyday example of multi-tasking.


    wil wrote: »
    So ignore the list you just put. Oh gawd!!!

    You just arrived in from the 19th century?


    Yeh wha?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭ratracer


    Jernal wrote: »
    I never quite understand this whole idea of hidden speed traps. Great, you've caught the person for speeding but usually a lot of drivers never ever see the speed trap to begin with. A more effective way to slow people down would be to have the speed check highly visible. Yeah, you'd probably catch a lot less people because they'd be tipped off but you'd slow them down - not have them speeding, possibly dangerously, then catch them and drop them a fine.

    I think it'd be worth our while implicating the Russian Inflatable tank manouevre. Place several inflatable speed camera vans on each road in the country. People wouldn't really be able to tell which is the real van and so they'd have a very strong compulsion to slow down. No guarantee that they would as the thing about folks who break the laws is that they don't anticipate they'll ever get caught.

    I'm all for improving road safety but the way road deaths from year to year are used and compared to say to speed traps and the like are working is farcical. One year? There's tonnes of other reasons why deaths on the road may vary.

    Like this: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0630/105165-roads/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    I actually completely agree with almost everything you've said there. :)

    However, it's not "speed" or even "excess speed" that causes the danger.. it's INAPPROPRIATE speed that causes the issues!

    Example: 5-10 km/h over a 50 km/h limit in a built-up area or outside a school IS indeed a danger and inappropriate and completely unacceptable... however, the same 5-10 km/h over on a deserted motorway is no risk to anyone*

    (* = obviously assuming the car/tyres etc are in good working order and so on)


    Both examples are of excess speed. The key issue is risk. In all cases higher speed means higher risk, but the risk profile is different in different situations. There's nothing remarkable about that. It's why the speed limit is four times higher on the M6 than it is in the centre of Dublin, for example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It does get a bit boring from time to time because very few of the speed fans ever manage to come up with any arguments other than the usual regurgitated guff, mangled stats and assorted flummery.
    Now really I want to hurl.
    I am very far from a speed fan but yet I see how uninformed wannabe dogooders cant see the wood for the cheese.

    Regulating speed by rules because some cant use common sense is fine, it whats we have to do. Misguidedly blaming everything on a single factor is as misguided as the flag carrier in front of the first vehicles, and is a dangerous practice. It excuses people to veer away from learning to drive as has been the way for decades and blindly, ignorantly and as we see here, so vehemently ignore all other real issues over a scapegoat one.
    The training issue is only now slowly being resolved. but with these sort of attitudes, it is no wonder it is difficult for learners to know what is correct,


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed"?

    Who said anything about 'stopping to monotask'? If you can't check your speedometer occasionally while driving then I have to wonder about your ability to multi-task, driving being an everyday example of multi-tasking.






    Yeh wha?
    Don't look for help if you are struggling to keep up with the lack of logic in your own arguments and please stop halfquoting me, my sentence didn't finish at "speed"
    Just this once, - you listed a lot of road abuses, then blanket blamed speed, ignoring the list you just gave. Actually that's pretty much what I said last time.

    I said about stopping to monotask, look
    wil wrote:
    Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.

    And its very relevant.
    It explains why drink, tiredness, mobile phone usage and other distractions are high risk factors. Accident rates are often high at police checkpoints because drivers get distracted from proper driving and start over checking speedometers etc, forgetting to use mirrors, rearending other cars etc. Similar in rubbernecking, all the concentration goes in to one novel activity and all coordinated multitasking goes on hold. Alcohol and sleepiness impair multitasking abilities, as evidenced for evidence in sobriety tests.

    Just wondering, as you might know, can you get speedometer for horses, or how do you know how fast you are travelling?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,220 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So it's uniformly "safe" up to 100 km/h and then it's suddenly not safe?

    Rubbish straw man argument.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So you don't know what speed you were driving at, but you do know that the unknown speed was safe?

    You would want to be a bit simple to rely solely on your speedometer for driving at a safe speed.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    By your own admission you don't know what speed you were driving at.

    How can you know that your unknown speed was a "safe" speed?
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

    Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

    Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.

    Your entire argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that one cannot drive safely UNLESS he/she knows what speed he/she is doing. It's not possible to know this all of the time, so by your flawed logic, nobody can drive safely.

    Your argument is bullshít, simple as. It's not that difficult to píss all over it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I was leaving Dublin airport today driving on the link road from the roundabout on the old N1 towards the roundabout on the M1

    Its a regular spot for them. And a good one - target rich. Their aim is to catch speeders, and they should be commended for once, for setting up where they can be most productive. There simply arent enough resources to properly enforce correct driving, so it must be targetted to where they can be most effective. Thumbs up for the Gardai.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Almaviva wrote: »
    Its a regular spot for them. And a good one - target rich. Their aim is to catch speeders, and they should be commended for once, for setting up where they can be most productive. There simply arent enough resources to properly enforce correct driving, so it must be targetted to where they can be most effective. Thumbs up for the Gardai.
    What a crass point of view. What do you mean by 'most productive'. If you mean produce most revenue and make the stats look impressive you may be right. As a contribution to road safety it is a complete waste of time and resources. If you think that this is how the Gardaí should be spending their time, you must be either a Garda or someone who thinks that the letter of the law is more important than what is the intention of the law, i.e. road safety.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,221 ✭✭✭NuckingFacker


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I was leaving Dublin airport today driving on the link road from the roundabout on the old N1 towards the roundabout on the M1. I noticed the Gardaí had set up a speed check near the latter roundabout. I am not sure what speed I was driving at but it was not very fast. I don't know if I will get a ticket for this but if I do, there should be dozens of others because everyone seemed to be driving at the same speed as me, i.e. a safe speed.
    I mentioned this incident to a friend and he told me that there is a speed trap there every other day. If this is true, then I would consider this to be a very cynical exercise on the part of the Gardaí. They are supposed to concentrate their resources on known black spots. I don't think this road would be an accident black spot.
    Have the Gardaí gone back to 'shooting fish in a barrel' again? It is difficult to have respect for them when they operate a 'gotcha' policy.
    Been through speed-traps at this point several times - the limit is a feckin un-do-able 50 - I always shake my head when I see them there- it's a dopey limit and a dopey spot - pure revenue raising, like every other speed trap, every where.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    What do you mean by 'most productive'.

    Catch as many people as possible. Points on the licence slow people down on all roads.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Almaviva wrote: »
    Catch as many people as possible. Points on the licence slow people down on all roads.
    If you are a driver ask yourself two questions:
    1. Have you ever exceeded any speed limit even marginally,
    2. If you have, do you think you deserve a fine and penalty points for each time you have done.

    Most, if not all, drivers will marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis because it is a near-impossibility not to do so. It does not mean they are reckless or dangerous but by your logic they should all be off the road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    If you are a driver ask yourself two questions:
    1. Have you ever exceeded any speed limit even marginally,
    2. If you have, do you think you deserve a fine and penalty points for each time you have done.

    Most, if not all, drivers will marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis because it is a near-impossibility not to do so. It does not mean they are reckless or dangerous but by your logic they should all be off the road.

    It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Almaviva wrote: »
    It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.
    Suppose all vehicles were, by law, fitted with a device which would, using GPS, record every time you exceeded any speed limit and transmitted that information automatically to the authorities. You would automatically be fined each time you did it and automatically banned from driving when you reached 12 points. Very soon most drivers would be off the road. Problem solved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Almaviva


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Suppose all vehicles were, by law, fitted with a device which would, using GPS, record every time you exceeded any speed limit and transmitted that information automatically to the authorities. You would automatically be fined each time you did it and automatically banned from driving when you reached 12 points. Very soon most drivers would be off the road. Problem solved.

    No. They would drive within the specified limits. Its only getting away with it that has Irish drivers with such poor discipline.

    Ever driven in Sweden ? Try their 30 and 50 zones and see that it can be done - and is expected by other road users.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭HurtLocker


    Almaviva wrote: »
    It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.

    So you have never broken a speed limit ever. If so did you turn yourself in and volunteer for penalty points and take the insurance hit? Only fair if you advocate fish in a barrel, and hidden cameras.


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