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Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

2

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 585 ✭✭✭enas


    For those of you who think Dublin is too hilly, I'd like to see you cycle against those massive headwinds they get in the Netherlands. It's so flat that nothing stops it. And of course, that's on a heavy upright Dutch bike, no drop bars allowed...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭f1dan


    Has anybody mentioned the weather? Galway is the perfect city for making short commuter trips by bicycle but the wind and rain in the west would put off even the hardiest of folk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,691 ✭✭✭dubrov


    There is little doubt that a lot more people would cycle in Ireland if the cycling infrastructure was similar to the Netherlands.

    The question is really why the infrastructure is so poor here compared to other countries.

    Politicians in the past have generally been ant-cycling but they just reflect the views of the population that they serve.

    My own personal opinion is that corruption in Irish politics over the years (especially the key period when cars became popular) has resulted in very little taxpayer money being spent on initiatives that generate a real benefit to the public but little profit for the state.

    The poor cycling infrastructure here has led to a general public opinion that cycling is dangerous and unnecessary.

    I do think opinions are beginning to change though as more and more people are starting to cycle and seeing the benefits for themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    f1dan wrote: »
    Has anybody mentioned the weather? Galway is the perfect city for making short commuter trips by bicycle but the wind and rain in the west would put off even the hardiest of folk.


    Was the weather responsible for the decline in cycling in the Netherlands up to the 1970s, and its subsequent revival? Did the wind and rain get substantially worse in Galway between 1986 and 2006?


    dubrov wrote: »
    There is little doubt that a lot more people would cycle in Ireland if the cycling infrastructure was similar to the Netherlands.

    The question is really why the infrastructure is so poor here compared to other countries.

    Politicians in the past have generally been ant-cycling but they just reflect the views of the population that they serve.



    Of importance in this regard are the inter-related phenomena of path dependence, network effects, technological lock-in and institutional inertia, as recognised academically by economists and sociologists and at gut level by politicians.

    In broad terms path dependence means that once particular decisions are made or innovations occur, certain outcomes are more likely down the line.

    Networks effects (or network externalities) occur when increasing adoption of, for example, a technological innovation brings benefits to individuals using that technology. Telephones and the internet spring to mind. The more people use the technology the more infrastructure is created to service it, which makes using that technology more attractive.

    Lock-in means that once a technology has been widely adopted it's costly and troublesome to switch to something new, even if the alternative is more efficient or otherwise preferable. The classic example often used is the QWERTY keyboard. Microsoft Windows might be another. Fossil fuel dependence is the biggest lock-in on the planet, perhaps, and a huge barrier when trying to prevent runaway climate change.

    Institutional inertia is just a fancy term for group-think. Why did the civil engineers cross the road? Because that's what they did last year.

    A huge technological, infrastructural, political and social apparatus was built up around private motorised transport in the 20th Century, with the result that we have become physically, psychologically and socially dependent on cars.

    Car users benefit from being part of the huge drivers' club, and as the network effects increase so do the advantages of being a motorist. Urban areas are developed for vehicular access. Built-up areas spread out, and facilities and services are located in order to be readily accessible by car. For non-drivers it's the opposite. Pedestrians, cyclists and bus users are disadvantaged by the increased distances, general inaccessibility, sheer weight of traffic and the inadequacy of public transport services in conditions of inexorable sprawl. There is a thus strong incentive to join the car-owners' club. As the club increases in size more benefits accrue for the members, which exacerbates the disadvantages for non-members, who then seek to join the club. That's called the cycle of car dependence.
    tdm100_01.jpg

    For many politicians it's just a numbers game: how many current voters are motorists, and how many are cyclists? I recall a local politician a few years ago dismissing objections to a highly questionable road "upgrade" because cyclists were a mere 3% of the population. The Councillors voted for this travesty at the time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,624 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental
    EB_2013 wrote: »
    Is it that bad? I thought that with so many bikes nobody would bother. Also the bikes are pretty basic.
    seamus wrote: »
    *Bike theft in Netherlands is also big, but a post here a while back suggested that there was a kind of pseudo-sharing scheme in operation. Go to a Dutch city and you will see hundreds, literally, of bikes parked at the side of the road unlocked. Etiquette if you find your bike has been stolen, is to simply take the closest bike to it which is unlocked and cycle off. Because there are so many bikes, bike theft basically becomes a non-problem because nobody is left without a bike. If you have a bike that you really want to hold onto, you either don't ride it into the city or you lock it
    As Seamus says this is what goes on. I was interested in it and asked the hotel owner about it the last time I was there. Combined with the "take a bike, leave a bike" system that operates the council and Rail company clear dozens of old bikes a day but it doesn't seem to make a dent of the numbers left around. You will not see nice road bikes though as they wouldn't last long, everyone seems to have the horrible upright ones for commuting.

    The bike park at the main station is something to see, 2,500 spaces!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 48 Suckfisher


    Big one not seen mentioned here is they ahve proper bike lanes.

    Maybe not i Amsterdam but most of the country.

    The road will be at a higher level and a bike lane may run parallell to a canal ata lower level
    no to going to hit parked car or fear for your life.

    Bike theft is widespread bought many a bike of a junkie for 10 guilders in the late 90s in Utrecht


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    lived in the bay area for a few years. for anyone arguing that it's about hills, bike use in San Francisco is far higher than dublin. and i doubt anyone can reasonably argue that dublin is on par with san francisco for hills.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭McTigs


    f1dan wrote: »
    Has anybody mentioned the weather? Galway is the perfect city for making short commuter trips by bicycle but the wind and rain in the west would put off even the hardiest of folk.
    I cycle salthill to liosban (bout 2 miles) and back five days a week, 12 months of the year. It actually doesn't rain as much as you think.

    And even in the worst weather i'd sooner be making that journey on the bike, i'd be half the day getting home otherwise.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    mossym wrote: »
    lived in the bay area for a few years. for anyone arguing that it's about hills, bike use in San Francisco is far higher than dublin. and i doubt anyone can reasonably argue that dublin is on par with san francisco for hills.

    Cycling modal share is around the same in both cities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 154 ✭✭del_boy13


    Another point that was made in that programme was that on average the Dutch spend £30 per capita on cycling infrastructure each year. In the UK it was around £2. Does anyone know what it is in Ireland?? Would guess its less than the UK


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    monument wrote: »
    Cycling modal share is around the same in both cities.

    could be, but most people in san fran don't own cars and cycle every day, i wonder how many of the cyclists lsited for dublin only cycle 1 or two days.

    anyway, even if it's the same, to me it still negates the hills arguments. people are right .holland is flat. but Dublin doesn't have hills. san fran is an example that even if it did, it doesn't put people off. similar numbers, having to cope with these:

    san-francisco-hills_zps5d0850ca.jpg

    SanFrancisco-hills_zps6ef190a0.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,506 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    And not a bike in sight :)

    At home, the big arguments are:

    1) I prefer driving
    2) Not at my age
    3) It's slow
    4) It's sweaty
    5) I'm not having more bikes in the house

    And the big one: "It's too dangerous!"

    I was quite pleased that my brother, the one who watches the Tour with me but mocks cycling the rest of the time, came back from inter-railing this summer and said they rented bikes to get around parts of Europe and that he now wanted a bike for college. I think this is part of the problem: We were never allowed cycle to school, my one moment of exposure to cycling was a class trip in secondary school where we cycled out to Wicklow and back on whatever mountain bike was kept in the garage. I enjoyed it, but the trip was cancelled after that because it was deemed "dangerous". After that, we always got lifts, car pooled and finally a private bus was organised by several parents in the area. A few people in my school cycled. Out of 600 I would say the number was probably less than 20, and most lived within 2km. No one is given the opportunity or the training to cycle in Dublin, so when you reach college and adulthood, cycling is almost an exotic, esoteric concept. Only poor people cycle, or hippies trying to save the planet. The big thing about turning 17 (at least where I came from) was learning to drive. Once you learn to drive, why bother cycling? It's dangerous!

    I'd like to see more organisation at school level, I don't know how really, I'd imagine a large peloton of parents and children could be a little tricky to manage, but maybe the government could organise a "bike to school" program, get parents and kids on bikes together. I'd really love if my parents cycled and had introduced me to it, I'd imagine it's a fantastic thing to share with a child.

    The only mention of cycling in School were those "wear high viz and lights" posters.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    mossym wrote: »
    i wonder how many of the cyclists lsited for dublin only cycle 1 or two days.

    Very few.

    The main Dublin modal share figures are from the 2011 census and the cycling figures are only supposed to record commuters who use bicycles as their main mode of transport (ie those who drive three days and cycle two days are excluded, as are those who mainly travel on a bus or train and then cycle a shorter distance at one end of the trip, ie lots of DublinBike users).

    Dublin actually seems to be somewhat above San Fran.... Co Dublin is at 5.1% while Dublin City is at 7.6%.

    In San Fran in 2011, cycling was at 3.5% of "all trips" - different ranking than the census which records commuter trips, so not directly comparable.

    What makes you think Dublin is lower than SF?

    Image attached from the infograph in the centre of this: http://cyclingindublin.com/in-print/inprint-edition-2/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,491 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    The only mention of cycling in School were those "wear high viz and lights helmet" posters.
    Sad, but true...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,741 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    San Francisco is actually grand for cycling, most people just use 'The Wiggle', which is a route which bypasses any major hills.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭f1dan


    McTigs wrote: »
    I cycle salthill to liosban (bout 2 miles) and back five days a week, 12 months of the year. It actually doesn't rain as much as you think.

    And even in the worst weather i'd sooner be making that journey on the bike, i'd be half the day getting home otherwise.

    I cycle myself from Westside to Mervue every day. There is definitely a perception about the weather though cos it's the main reason why people I work with, who make shorter trips, all travel by car.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭thebionicdude


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    With regard to children cycling the CSO says in its 2011 report on commuting patterns:
    The number of secondary school students travelling to school on a bicycle has decreased from a peak of 50,648 in 1986 to 6,592 in 2011, a fall of 87 per cent. The decline in the number of girls using a bicycle has been particularly stark, falling from over 19,000 in 1986 to only 529 in 2011.

    Likewise the proportion of Third Level students cycling to college dropped precipitously from around 25% in 1986 to 5% in 2006.

    Those stats are depressing.

    Do you know are there also stats for walking, being driven to school and taking public transport for the same years to put these stats in greater perspective?

    Ironically, the roads are less safe for children biking to school because parents insist on driving them, adding greatly to congestion.

    In addition, one would think parents would want their kids to make their own way to places to save them the hassle. It's annoying to hear parents complain of being taxi-drivers for all their kids' activities.

    We have developed a culture of worrying about the worst-case scenario. Before media/marketers could prey on our fears we weren't as worried about things. The fear of being an irresponsible parent must play on parents' minds greatly if they don't wish to school them in safely making their own way to class and home again when they are mature enough.

    When one considers the distance involved in most commutes, there is little reason for people not to either walk, cycle or avail of public transport. The reason we don't owes to both bad habits and our perception of what is convenient. There are a lot of inconveniences associated with having a car but culturally these aren't challenged. People accept them the way we cyclists accept the inconvenience of small hills, wind and rain. People make the switch both ways, these are the people we need to hear from as their views are likely less entrenched.

    It's up to people to make their own choices but it helps if they are informed ones as opposed to simply cultural ones. The idea that whole generations of kids don't discover the mobility and independence a bike gives them for free scares me greatly. Clearly, cyclists face serious headwinds in twenty years time in terms of public policy if cycling does become this esoteric thing, which it clearly is at risk of becoming.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Those stats are depressing.

    Do you know are there also stats for walking, being driven to school and taking public transport for the same years to put these stats in greater perspective?



    To depress you some more: http://www.cso.ie/en/census/

    To cheer you up again: http://www.flickr.com/groups/dublincyclechic/


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    monument wrote: »

    What makes you think Dublin is lower than SF?

    nothing other than personal observation, always seemed to be much more cyclists on the roads in SF than I've seen in Dublin, but happy to stand corrected in the face of actual stats. my observation could be based on the quote below, greater concentration on some routes to avoid hills
    stetyrrell wrote: »
    San Francisco is actually grand for cycling, most people just use 'The Wiggle', which is a route which bypasses any major hills.

    exactly, hills don't deter people, they just find routes around them if they want.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭mossym


    DirkVoodoo wrote: »
    And not a bike in sight :)

    At home, the big arguments are:

    1) I prefer driving
    2) Not at my age
    3) It's slow
    4) It's sweaty
    5) I'm not having more bikes in the house

    And the big one: "It's too dangerous!"

    i'd accept any of those excuses over the hills argument any day


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    A lot of people making reasons for not cycling simply haven't tried it.

    Though I will say that road design, layout and junctions around Dublin in particular are very poorly designed. They seem to be designed by someone without any experience of cycling or driving. Its like someone drew them out on paper so they looked nice, or fit the space and left it at that.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    mossym wrote: »
    nothing other than personal observation, always seemed to be much more cyclists on the roads in SF than I've seen in Dublin, but happy to stand corrected in the face of actual stats. my observation could be based on the quote below, greater concentration on some routes to avoid hills.

    By the way, I was asking out of interest, not to correct you or anything.

    Another factor could be that you don't see the following amounts of cyclists in all parts if Dublin... so perceptions can vary a lot from area to area...

    http://m.flickr.com/lightbox?id=9216937811
    http://m.flickr.com/photos/cianginty/9216941735/lightbox/

    A lot of areas in Dublin may also have reasonally high (in Dublin terms) commuter numbers, but much lower levels of cyclists outside rush hour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭thebionicdude


    Possibly veering off topic but just pasting in the complete stats prompted by Iwannahurl. They show the drop in kids pedaling to school over the years and the large increase in numbers being driven to class instead. I also paste in the breakdown of boys and girls pedaling.

    It would be interesting to compare Irish census figures with Dutch ones if the same question is asked there but the numbers suggest less and less Irish parents are encouraging their children to commute by bike.

    Unless the reasons for this are addressed it is hard to see cycle-commuting being seen as anything but a fringe activity in time. In addition, the joys of cycling will be something that people discover when they are adult.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    monument wrote: »
    In 2006 almost 100,000 people in Dublin drove 4km or less to work!

    We really have to get past the myth that the majority are now doing really long commutes.

    Source for this being?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,917 ✭✭✭✭GT_TDI_150


    Being a belgian myself I would say first and foremost that all dutch people are cheap skates ;) and dont want to pay for fuel.

    On a serious note, as the countries are side be side I'm going to look at this from the view point that the reasons me and my friends, family, etc cycled when I was living at home are:

    1)infrastructure
    my 'commute' to school used to be 10km from a town the size of say 'Bantry' to the outskirts of Antwerp city, the entire route has a cycling path!, my gran used to live 25-30km in the other direction - same storey cycle paths all the way, including along dual carriage ways, etc.

    2)Habit
    There was a bus on my route to school, with a bus stop 50m from my house that would stop outside the school ... very seldom did we take the bus. From a early age parents take their kids cycling along designated (car free) paths. To a kid in Belgium it is 100% normal to jump on the bike and go to school, training, friends, family in the local area. If a parent suggested to their child here that they head to gaa training on their bike I reckon in most cases the kid would have a heart attack.

    3)Drivers attitude towards cyclists
    Much more positive in Belgium, this might be down to my first point that every one has their space on the road, but I cant remember any close calls with cars/vans/buses I had whilst cycling(for 14-15 years) in Belgium

    4) Weather being an issue in Ireland a ridiculous argument, Belgium's weather would be similar to Ireland, a tad hotter in summer, a tad colder in winter - plenty rain there too - and that didn't stop most of the kids in my school from cycling EVERYDAY, no matter what the weather was the bike shed was always full(a few 100 bikes) - Gave many a day trying to keep our bike upright on the way to and from school on icy winter days :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,624 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Source for this being?

    2006 census and the DoT


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    2006 census and the DoT

    Just checking because the source I'm looking at for the 2006 census says 96665 traveled to work over a distance of 2-4 Km not drove

    http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76562

    So are we viewing the same stats? as I assume that the mode of transport would be this table

    http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76542


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭dave_o_brien


    beauf wrote: »
    Though I will say that road design, layout and junctions around Dublin in particular are very poorly designed. They seem to be designed by someone without any experience of cycling or driving. Its like someone drew them out on paper so they looked nice, or fit the space and left it at that.


    This is pretty much what has happened, with few exceptions. Dublin is a former medieval city, which has had much of it's medieval fabric demolished to make way for Georgian and Victorian buildings. Most of the Georgian new builds was replacing the same footprint as it's medieval predecessor. When the city began to expand, the wide roads commission made compulsory purchase orders to locations such as capel street, leeson street, etc, to provide for broad boulevards. But all of this design and planning was done in an era before the motor vehicle. At this point in time, the largest, fastest vehicle was the horse drawn carriage, and they weren't that common.

    Unlike the Georgians, we in the 21st century are terrified of new things, so protect many unworthy aspects of our architectural heritage ferociously, in the misguided belief that if we allow the mediocre elements of our heritage go, the exceptional will be next. Same insane logic that applies to the abortion debate- known as the "slippery slope" argument. Which to me seems obviousle erroneous, and leaves us crippled by fear of replacing the mediocre old with the bad new. Simple solution: replace it with something better.

    To clarify, I'm not condoning replacing all, or even most, of Georgian Dublin, just parts that are not of merit.

    But why do I say all that? It has left us with a pattern of streets that were largely leftover space, not "designed" for cars. Not designed for traffic, of any meaningful description. Yet we insist on streets such as leeson street to put three lanes of traffic down it. Merrion square has four lanes, plus parking. O'Connell Street, which doesn't really go anywhere, has 4 lanes. Nassau Street is a terrifying 2 lane+massive bus lay by. Why?

    All of this makes it very easy to drive. There won't be a modal shift in Ireland by choice. To make people choose, you need to actively make driving unattractive, and tell the public that this is what is happening. If you want to drive into town, there will be very, very few routes through town, with mass car parks along it, which will be very expensive. You will not be able to drive to where you want to go. You will drive to a car park, and walk the rest of the way. We should reduce rates for shops in the city centre, recovering that cost with a congestion charge.

    There obviously isn't the political will for this, because there is no public desire for change. It's all well and good to ask what we can do to make cycling more attractive. The answer is very simple: make driving significantly less attractive.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    ^^^^^^ This + 1 same goes for all our larger towns


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Just checking because the source I'm looking at for the 2006 census says 96665 traveled to work over a distance of 2-4 Km not drove

    http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76562

    So are we viewing the same stats? as I assume that the mode of transport would be this table

    http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=76542

    Ok I don't know about Dublin but I did a quick pull from Table 57A
    Table 57A Persons at work aged 15 years and over usually resident in the State and present in their usual residence on Census Night, classified by distance travelled and by means of travel to work, distinguishing the Aggregate Town and Aggregate Rural Areas

    Motor car driver
    Less than 1 km --- 1,637
    1 to 2 km
    43,264
    2 to 4 km
    158,434

    Total
    203,335

    This does not include those who travelled to work as passengers


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