Boundary walls

Uriel.

So my neighbour is building a single story extension to the back of their house. We are semi detached.

No problem.

But i came home last night to discover that they builders have constructed their wall on top of the boundary wall separating our house and theirs. Essentially they have built upwards on the wall (with blocks covering the entire top of the wall) in a tiered fashion. Presumably for the roof to be constructed.

I know planning permission is not required to build at the back but I am wondering of the legal position in regards to the full use of the wall like that.

Looking at it we'd have nowhere to build off if we ever wanted to build an extension which we hoped to do next year when money was better.

Seems mad to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

Any advice would be great thanks

OMD

Uriel. wrote: »

So my neighbour is building a single story extension to the back of their house. We are semi detached.

No problem.

But i came home last night to discover that they builders have constructed their wall on top of the boundary wall separating our house and theirs. Essentially they have built upwards on the wall (with blocks covering the entire top of the wall) in a tiered fashion. Presumably for the roof to be constructed.

I know planning permission is not required to build at the back but I am wondering of the legal position in regards to the full use of the wall like that.

Looking at it we'd have nowhere to build off if we ever wanted to build an extension which we hoped to do next year when money was better.

Seems mad to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

Any advice would be great thanks

Assuming it is a shared wall you will be able to build off the same wall. Essentially your neighbour will have built one wall for you. They should have discussed this with you first as you can refuse to allow them permission on a shared wall. They should really stop building immediately pending discussions with you.

By the way not all extensions do not need planning permission. It must be less than 40m2 and must be at back if property (not to the side).

Uriel.

Thanks.

So are you saying it's a non issue in terms of future work. I'm just wondering when the roof goes on what would be the impact for an extension on our side. Surely now we couldn't use the same wall without affecting their work.

So they can use the wall completely?

Images attached if it's any use

Marcusm

A bit idiotic of them to do this without discussing with you but the builder may have told them not to bother. Even to render that wall, they will hve to have access to your property. Equally, it's hard to see how the roof will not encroach beyond the wall line and thus trespass on your property. It would have been much easier for you both to have built at the same time.

handlemaster

a boundary wall is a boundary wall as far as I know you can't build on it. anyhow its cheeky

ButtersSuki

handlemaster wrote: »

a boundary wall is a boundary wall as far as I know you can't build on it. anyhow its cheeky

No,you can build on it (I recently checked this on here and with Co. Co and architects) but the done thing is to discuss and agree with neighbours in advance.

miss no stars

OMD wrote: »

Assuming it is a shared wall you will be able to build off the same wall.

Sincerely doubt that.


OP - get to a solicitor with experience of party wall disputes ASAP and have them check all the title documents to your house and advise you from there. This is for nobody but a good solicitor to advise on.

ButtersSuki

As I said above, I have checked this. You can check your local County Council website under "Planning Permission" to get more detailed info too. I was more than a little surprised to find that you can do it, but it is so. Here's a copy of something one of the mods here sent to me if it helps (point 2 is the relevant section):

1. Yes. Under the 'Land and conveyancing act' 2009, powers have been afforded to building owners when it comes to party structures. Theres a good explanation here or for a more detailed look see here. Basically, you do not need permission when carrying out exempted development, but you will need to
Quote:
(a) make good all damage caused to the adjoining owner as a consequence of the works, or reimburse the adjoining owner the reasonable costs and expenses of such making good, and

(b) pay to the adjoining owner—
(i) the reasonable costs of obtaining professional advice with regard to the likely consequences of the works, and
(ii) reasonable compensation for any inconvenience caused by the works.
so as you can see, its a good idea to have this all sorted out amicably before any works happen.


2. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house. (b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
(c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
from exempted requirements here

while there is no specified height, its generally considered that once the wall is sufficient to structurally and technically cover a single storey extension, with a parapet for a hidden gutter, then thats the maximum it can be.

miss no stars

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As I said above, I have checked this. You can check your local County Council website under "Planning Permission" to get more detailed info too. I was more than a little surprised to find that you can do it, but it is so. Here's a copy of something one of the mods here sent to me if it helps (point 2 is the relevant section):

1. Yes. Under the 'Land and conveyancing act' 2009, powers have been afforded to building owners when it comes to party structures. Theres a good explanation here or for a more detailed look see here. Basically, you do not need permission when carrying out exempted development, but you will need to
Quote:
(a) make good all damage caused to the adjoining owner as a consequence of the works, or reimburse the adjoining owner the reasonable costs and expenses of such making good, and

(b) pay to the adjoining owner—
(i) the reasonable costs of obtaining professional advice with regard to the likely consequences of the works, and
(ii) reasonable compensation for any inconvenience caused by the works.
so as you can see, its a good idea to have this all sorted out amicably before any works happen.


2. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house. (b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
(c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
from exempted requirements here

while there is no specified height, its generally considered that once the wall is sufficient to structurally and technically cover a single storey extension, with a parapet for a hidden gutter, then thats the maximum it can be.

This needs to go to a solicitor with experience in party wall disputes.

Let's consider all 3 scenarios:

1. Neighbour owns the wall and land it's built on - no problem for the OP, but they're perfectly entitled to refuse overhanging of the roof of their land.
2. OP owns the wall and land it's built on - big problem for neighbour.
3. OP and neighbour jointly own the wall and land it's built on - herein lies the problem. The neighbour acting without consultation has led to a wall being built to support one extension. If the OP wants to extend now, they can't use the space they should have been able to use. In effect - the neighbour has devalued the OP's home.

Hence, the OP needs to go to a solicitor.

Uriel.

Marcusm wrote: »

A bit idiotic of them to do this without discussing with you but the builder may have told them not to bother. Even to render that wall, they will hve to have access to your property. Equally, it's hard to see how the roof will not encroach beyond the wall line and thus trespass on your property. It would have been much easier for you both to have built at the same time.

Agreed, if we both built at same time it would be far simpler but resources don't all that for me at present unfortunately.

I agree I can't see how we could possibly build an extension in the future without essentially building a new wall running alongside the party wall. Thus losing the width of a full wall

But even aside from that. Surely the roof and guttering to be constructed would mean an extension on this side would be very difficult without interfering with that work.

Nightmare situation. I certainly don't begrudge the neighbours extending etc but I'd prefer it to be done in a measured way

moy83

At least the builder covered your patio before blocklaying !
You should chat with the neighbour to see what he might do for you , Id say his soffit will be overhanging your place now . Im not sure how possible it would be but if you had a small few bob now would be the time to join both roofs if you are doing an extension down the line anyhow .
Could you work from his new roof and wall with a steel beam and wall plate on your side that would carry the roof for now and just leave it like that until you were ready to do the rest down the line ? The neighbour might even split the cost of your roof to keep you sweet

Uriel.

miss no stars wrote: »

This needs to go to a solicitor with experience in party wall disputes.

Let's consider all 3 scenarios:

1. Neighbour owns the wall and land it's built on - no problem for the OP, but they're perfectly entitled to refuse overhanging of the roof of their land.
2. OP owns the wall and land it's built on - big problem for neighbour.
3. OP and neighbour jointly own the wall and land it's built on - herein lies the problem. The neighbour acting without consultation has led to a wall being built to support one extension. If the OP wants to extend now, they can't use the space they should have been able to use. In effect - the neighbour has devalued the OP's home.

Hence, the OP needs to go to a solicitor.

Thanks for your advice.

God I'd prefer not to be undertaking legal proceedings or anything, we still have ton live next door to each other. And not to mention the cost of even a consultation with a solicitor.

I wonder if there's any chance the builders proceeded without express direction from my neighbours. Probably not I guess

miss no stars

moy83 wrote: »

Id say his soffit will be overhanging your place now .

No it won't be! Not unless the OP expressly gives permission for it.

Uriel.

moy83 wrote: »

At least the builder covered your patio before blocklaying !
You should chat with the neighbour to see what he might do for you , Id say his soffit will be overhanging your place now . Im not sure how possible it would be but if you had a small few bob now would be the time to join both roofs if you are doing an extension down the line anyhow .
Could you work from his new roof and wall with a steel beam and wall plate on your side that would carry the roof for now and just leave it like that until you were ready to do the rest down the line ? The neighbour might even split the cost of your roof to keep you sweet

I'm not sure of the legal position using the boundary wall in such a manner but I would be f@irly certain that anything overhanging the boundary would be entering my property and therefore fully illegal.

I really have no funds to prep a site for construction in the future as you suggest. Unfortunately. Would be a handy solution but it's just not available. I wouldn't even have a clue of the estimated cost of such work

Uriel.

Uriel. wrote: »

I'm not sure of the legal position using the boundary wall in such a manner but I would be f@irly certain that anything overhanging the boundary would be entering my property and therefore fully illegal.

I really have no funds to prep a site for construction in the future as you suggest. Unfortunately. Would be a handy solution but it's just not available. I wouldn't even have a clue of the estimated cost of such work

Ps I'd even have to question the strength of the wall and/or foundation to hold two roofs in the future

miss no stars

Uriel. wrote: »

Thanks for your advice.

God I'd prefer not to be undertaking legal proceedings or anything, we still have ton live next door to each other. And not to mention the cost of even a consultation with a solicitor.

I wonder if there's any chance the builders proceeded without express direction from my neighbours. Probably not I guess

I don't think it has to come down to legal proceedings really but you do need to act quickly. At the moment it's just a wall. When it's finished it's a wall supporting a roof containing a living space etc., etc. But your solicitor is the best person to advise on WHO owns how much (if any) of the wall and where you can go from there - e.g., try talking to them first and if no joy a letter from the solicitor.

As for the chances that the builder proceeded without permission...? Who knows? It could be that the builders said to the neighbours "oh sure we've done loads of these where you just build up on the wall and it saves you €xxx" and the neighbours said "oh is the wall strong enough?" to which they're told yes and they don't even consider the impact on you. Possible, but they'd have to be fairly air-headed. Although it could be a tactful way to raise it with them...?

miss no stars

Uriel. wrote: »

Ps I'd even have to question the strength of the wall and/or foundation to hold two roofs in the future

If it's a standard concrete block wall laid on the edge, so would I.

Uriel.

miss no stars wrote: »

I don't think it has to come down to legal proceedings really but you do need to act quickly. At the moment it's just a wall. When it's finished it's a wall supporting a roof containing a living space etc., etc. But your solicitor is the best person to advise on WHO owns how much (if any) of the wall and where you can go from there - e.g., try talking to them first and if no joy a letter from the solicitor.

As for the chances that the builder proceeded without permission...? Who knows? It could be that the builders said to the neighbours "oh sure we've done loads of these where you just build up on the wall and it saves you €xxx" and the neighbours said "oh is the wall strong enough?" to which they're told yes and they don't even consider the impact on you. Possible, but they'd have to be fairly air-headed. Although it could be a tactful way to raise it with them...?

I think I'll speak to the builders on site later and suss out their response first.

Whatever happens there'll be no permission for anything over hanging that's for sure.

ezra_pound

The middle of the boundary wall is the boundary so if he builds in your half of the wall he is builsing on your Property.

ButtersSuki

As I said in my original post, the done thing is to discuss these works with your neighbour and agree in advance of any work starting what can and can't be done.

Ad this hasn't happened I'd suggest you have that chat NOW to avoid further confusion/disagreement/cost etc and hopefully avoid having to go legal in it.

Whilst your neighbour can use the wall, he can't overhang onto your property.

Hopefully it works out amicably for you.

martinn123

Your neighbour is very foolish, as has been mentioned above the original foundations were for a boundary wall, not an extention.

What they are doing does not comply with Building Regulations, and should they sell in the future, no Lender will pass a mortgage on that rubbish.

The Facia and Soffit, will overhang your property, and they will have to access your side to render, ( waterproof ) this wall.

If that is the level of expertise the ''Builder '' has, the whole thing will probably collapse.

Uriel.

martinn123 wrote: »

Your neighbour is very foolish, as has been mentioned above the original foundations were for a boundary wall, not an extention.

What they are doing does not comply with Building Regulations, and should they sell in the future, no Lender will pass a mortgage on that rubbish.

The Facia and Soffit, will overhang your property, and they will have to access your side to render, ( waterproof ) this wall.

If that is the level of expertise the ''Builder '' has, the whole thing will probably collapse.

Jebus don't say that.

Sigh. I can't see this turning out well so.

Uriel.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As I said in my original post, the done thing is to discuss these works with your neighbour and agree in advance of any work starting what can and can't be done.

Ad this hasn't happened I'd suggest you have that chat NOW to avoid further confusion/disagreement/cost etc and hopefully avoid having to go legal in it.

Whilst your neighbour can use the wall, he can't overhang onto your property.

Hopefully it works out amicably for you.

Thanks for your advices. I'll have a chat tonight. Hopefully a roof won't be on by then. I have a feeling it won't end overly amicably

miss no stars

ButtersSuki wrote: »

As I said in my original post, the done thing is to discuss these works with your neighbour and agree in advance of any work starting what can and can't be done.

Ad this hasn't happened I'd suggest you have that chat NOW to avoid further confusion/disagreement/cost etc and hopefully avoid having to go legal in it.

Whilst your neighbour can use the wall, he can't overhang onto your property.

Hopefully it works out amicably for you.

No - the neighbour can use what they own. If the wall is jointly owned the neighbour can't decide unilaterally that they are to have full use of it, denying the OP access to the half of the wall owned by the OP. To determine who owns what, a solicitor needs to look at the title documents. If the OP can't afford that they could contact the local planning department and have them inspect the site and buy some time/leverage with the neighbour.

OMD

martinn123 wrote: »

Your neighbour is very foolish, as has been mentioned above the original foundations were for a boundary wall, not an extention.

What they are doing does not comply with Building Regulations, and should they sell in the future, no Lender will pass a mortgage on that rubbish.

The Facia and Soffit, will overhang your property, and they will have to access your side to render, ( waterproof ) this wall.

If that is the level of expertise the ''Builder '' has, the whole thing will probably collapse.

It is perfectly possible to build on the boundary wall without anything overhanging the OPs property. I've done it (with the full permission of neighbour).

mikom

Very cheeky by the neighbor.
Shades of "A Soft Touch" from the The Acid House by Irvine Welsh.

gaius c

Having looked at the picture, I wouldn't be remotely happy about sitting under that wall.

Also, does it block light?

Uriel.

gaius c wrote: »

Having looked at the picture, I wouldn't be remotely happy about sitting under that wall.

Also, does it block light?

I'm not sure about the light blocking it doesn't seem to be I haven't fully checked that yet.


I spoke with the builder who outlined that it was permitted to build as they done and that there will be no guttering on our side but there may be a 20mm overhang of the roof.


He says that if we build into the future we can build into the roof and work from there. He claims that they're building a support wall on the other side and we'd need to do the same if w build in the future

It doesn't make a lot sense to me to be honest but I'm not an expert in this field. I think I'll ask a mate who is in the construction game for his thoughts on that claim

martinn123

Uriel. wrote: »

I'm not sure about the light blocking it doesn't seem to be I haven't fully checked that yet.


I spoke with the builder who outlined that it was permitted to build as they done and that there will be no guttering on our side but there may be a 20mm overhang of the roof.

With your permission??

He says that if we build into the future we can build into the roof and work from there. He claims that they're building a support wall on the other side and we'd need to do the same if w build in the future

Great so where we had a foundation for a boundary wall, he now wants to hang two new roofs on it. Who is this Guy,

I wonder if he is putting down a foundation for this so called ''Supporting Wall''

It doesn't make a lot sense to me to be honest but I'm not an expert in this field. I think I'll ask a mate who is in the construction game for his thoughts on that claim

Good idea,

miss no stars

Uriel. wrote: »

I'm not sure about the light blocking it doesn't seem to be I haven't fully checked that yet.


I spoke with the builder who outlined that it was permitted to build as they done and that there will be no guttering on our side but there may be a 20mm overhang of the roof.


He says that if we build into the future we can build into the roof and work from there. He claims that they're building a support wall on the other side and we'd need to do the same if w build in the future

It doesn't make a lot sense to me to be honest but I'm not an expert in this field. I think I'll ask a mate who is in the construction game for his thoughts on that claim

They're building a cavity wall basically. The inner leaf of the cavity provides the structural support, the outer leaf contributes to the weatherproofing. You then use the party wall as your weatherproofing and build your structural wall the other side. I wouldn't be certain about building into the roof though, good practice is that separately owned buildings should not rely on each other for structural support so that's one I'd want cleared up immediately. Also, there "will be" an overhang? Em, no. Not unless you permit it. Not a hope. Let them continue the party wall up and have no overhang.

It's not a perfect situation and I think you'd have a case to argue if you wanted - builders aren't solicitors with experience in title documents! For all they know, it could be that each house owns the wall to the left of it (not saying this is the case or even common... but it's not impossible and needs to be checked soon!) and the wall they say they're "entitled" to build on is 100% yours.

That said, you need to decide a couple of things..

• you want to extend in the future - will the wall being built line up properly with what you want to do? If it will... how much of an inconvenience is it really? If it won't, how easily will you be able to extend it further into the garden?

• Do you want to allow them to overhang? If you've plans to extend in the future the answer to this should be a categorical "no" and your neighbours need to be informed that if they do overhang they'll have the planning inspectors out and have the expense of having to put it right after the fact

miss no stars

martinn123 wrote: »

I wonder if he is putting down a foundation for this so called ''Supporting Wall''

I'd bloody well hope so.

Also, the roof will should be supported by the inner, structural leaf (i.e. the new supporting wall being built on the other side) so if the ground has good bearing and the party wall is in good nick there's no reason to presume it's not up to scratch.

What I'm interested in is how they're tying the two leafs together :eek: