A bit cheeky?

JayRoc

Wanted a second opinion on something that bugged me about a meal out:

L'Ecrivain in Dublin 2 have been doing a deal of late, on their Tasting Menu, to push sales during their quieter part of the week.
The deal's done as a voucher through thediningroom.ie, voucher costs 65.00 for the dinner for two, when it would normally be 130.00 (65 each).

Good value I thought, it's the only starred restaurant in Dublin I'd never been to, and as the missus and I haven't been out for a nice meal in a while we snapped it up and booked a table for last night.

Other than waiting half an hour to be seated even though we were there on time, the service was good and so was the food.

The only sour note was at the end.
We'd both work early this morning so I knew we wouldn't be having drinks with dinner, so I had only thought to carry a tenner in my pocket to leave as a tip (just over 15% of the cost of the meal), but when the bill came I found they'd added a service charge of 12.5% of the full price for dinner (130.00) then just deducted the amount of the voucher, the cheeky beggars.
In other words without asking they simply added a tip to the bill (who DOES that anyway, nowadays?) that came to a quarter of what I'd paid for dinner, 16.25!

I didn't have enough to cover the amount, and I was mortified having to explain that to the waiter who in fairness was bang on about it.
But I felt it put a real downer on a lovely meal.

So...do you think they were taking the piss, or should the voucher have said that 25% would be automatically added to the amount when paying...or should I just be grateful I got top-class food at a good price and shut up whining?



(Edit: I know that probably makes me sound cheap, and the amounts are small enough, but it was the way it was thrown in with no warning that narked me and it ended with me being embarrassed as a result)

the beer revolu

If I was I your shoes, they wouldn't have even gotten the tenner after pulling that stunt.

rubadub

On lots of those vouchers like groupon etc I have noticed restaurants having statements like "please tip an amount which would be appropriate for the meal at its normal price" -or phrases along those lines, none I saw were demanding or insistent but it makes sense to me that the tip might be based on the normal price.

The whole percentage thing makes no sense in some instances, like a waiter is really expecting to get €125 to open a €1000 bottle of wine? do they get more difficult to open the dearer they are?

Some of the vouchers sites really screw the guys using them (their own fault). Groupon typically take 50%. So if you get a 50% off groupon voucher the restaurant is only getting 25% of what they normally charge.

thegreatiam

rubadub wrote: »

Some of the vouchers sites really screw the guys using them (their own fault). Groupon typically take 50%. So if you get a 50% off groupon voucher the restaurant is only getting 25% of what they normally charge.

yes, but at the potential cost of getting a repeat customer. Why then risk alienating the potential customer by insisting they leave a bigger tip then they feel comfortable.

runawaybishop

JayRoc wrote: »

So...do you think they were taking the piss, or should the voucher have said that 25% would be automatically added to the amount when paying...or should I just be grateful I got top-class food at a good price and shut up whining?

The service charge should have been clearly indicated on your menu or on a sign. If it wasn't you are under no obligation to pay it.

rubadub

thegreatiam wrote: »

Why then risk alienating the potential customer by insisting they leave a bigger tip then they feel comfortable.

As I said, the ones I saw it on were not demanding or insistent, some were humorous. I don't think what happened with the OP is acceptable.

I am just playing devils advocate, when I get these vouchers I do not expect an identical experience, especially after I found out groupon take 50%. It would be an advantage to them if they made it clear it was not usual service, i.e. just do not give 50% off if you are going to not give as much.

There is a restaurant & takeaway near me that had this €5 deal going via some website. I tried it once and was not impressed with the portion size and was never back, maybe it was just scabby portions due to the deal, so it can totally backfire on them, anybody who asked me about it was also put off.

thegreatiam

rubadub wrote: »

There is a restaurant & takeaway near me that had this €5 deal going via some website. I tried it once and was not impressed with the portion size and was never back, maybe it was just scabby portions due to the deal, so it can totally backfire on them, anybody who asked me about it was also put off.

I cant see the point of doing that, when I go to a deal I expect the best service as though I am paying full price.
The way I see vouchers is that the business wants to increase custom, so offers a discount. Why then treat those discounts worse simply because, on this occasion, they are paying less than full price. Surely that is the time to go full whack and impress the crap out of the customer so they are more prepared to return at full rate.

Any restaurant that invest in groupon etc and misses this point doesn't deserve the repeat business.

Ive used a few vouchers and have returned to the places which treated us well. I havent set foot in any place that ive felt put off by, and that would include an enforce tip, smaller portions or a "Voucher Menu"

JayRoc

runawaybishop wrote: »

The service charge should have been clearly indicated on your menu or on a sign. If it wasn't you are under no obligation to pay it.

In fairness, on the standard menu it DID mention 12.5% being added to the bill automatically as a "discretionary" charge...I assumed if applied it would be 12.5% of what I had actually paid, but at that stage it was too late anyway. I only had a tenner on me and no card.

I don't object in principle to tipping an amount consistent with the normal price of the meal, if I'd been flush I may well have done. I'd even say that maybe I should have brought a larger tip with me in the first place or else not have gone to dinner there.

But I object to not being able to decide for myself how much to tip, or at least for the voucher to have a note advising of the charge so I wouldn't have been caught short.
I would consider myself far more assertive than the average person (without being a pushy dickhead) but even I would probably balk at haggling over a charge like that if I was in company.

I would simply resolve never to come there again.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

JayRoc

Melendez wrote: »

I did the L'Ecrivian deal a while back. It never occurred to me to assume a 50% discount on the tip - I agree, though, it should be explicitly spelled out in the offer details. L'Ecrivain is one of those restaurants where I feel they did provide the full experience for the discounted price. They also are up front about only giving off-peak bookings - others have been known to just happen to always lack availability at the peak times you wish to book.

Cheers, that's exactly why I posted...
Wanted to see if some people thought what happened was fair enough and obviously that's the case.

As for the times, yeah, the voucher clearly stated Mon-Wed only, no ambiguity.
The waiter said the majority of last night's custom was vouchers so it would have been dead otherwise.

the beer revolu

runawaybishop wrote: »

The service charge should have been clearly indicated on your menu or on a sign. If it wasn't you are under no obligation to pay it.

You are under no obligation to pay service charge, ever.
It is always discretionary.

runawaybishop

the beer revolu wrote: »

You are under no obligation to pay service charge, ever.
It is always discretionary.

It can be compulsory, as long as it is clearly marked as such.

the beer revolu

runawaybishop wrote: »

It can be compulsory, as long as it is clearly marked as such.

That's news to me.

runawaybishop

the beer revolu wrote: »

That's news to me.

You might see stated like "parties of 6 or more will incur a service charge of X%" more often, but as long as its stated clearly they can charge a compulsory amount.

JayRoc

the beer revolu wrote: »

That's news to me.

But who (in real life not the internet!) regardless of whether or not they're legally obliged to do it, is honestly going to refuse to pay part of the bill unless there was a major let-down in service (and even then, most Irish people still wouldn't make a fuss, in my experience)?

Especially if you're in company...

whomitconcerns

i have asked for service charges to be removed. Once for a party of 10 as the waiter told us that the management didn't share any of the service charge with them. And once because the service was terrible. Regardless of what it says you never have to pay a service charge, just ask for it to be removed.

NothingMan

A friemd of mine worked for years in an Italian, a well enough known chain. They at some point decided to add a service charge to all meals. As a customer if I see a service charge added I usually won't tip extra or much extra anyway. So my friend and her colleagues went from splitting reasonable tips to nothing. Service charge went to the house.
She would, when appropriate, nudge the conversation in such a way with customers she had a repore with towards this subject and explain they did not have to pay the service charge if they did not want to, and they would then leave a tip so the waiting staff got what should always have been theirs.

runawaybishop

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Regardless of what it says you never have to pay a service charge, just ask for it to be removed.

This is not true, you can only refuse discretionary charges that are marked as discretionary.

whomitconcerns

runawaybishop wrote: »

This is not true, you can only refuse discretionary charges that are marked as discretionary.

Interestingly true...but what constitutes a charge that is not discretionary.

Does just saying that "a service charge of X% will be added" mean that this is compulsory?

I mean if i didnt get what I felt was a service worthy of that I would feel i could waive that

Mrs Fox

rubadub wrote: »

The whole percentage thing makes no sense in some instances, like a waiter is really expecting to get €125 to open a €1000 bottle of wine? do they get more difficult to open the dearer they are?

Flippin hell I never looked at it that way, you're dead right!

loveisdivine

We used that same voucher and they didn't add a tip to ours. I thought it was great value too and excellent service. We didn't want the foie gras course so they swapped it for the hake dish off the main menu instead.

What annoys me most when you buy a restaurant "deal" is getting there and being handed a ****ty menu that only has a tiny selection of dishes on it.
Its not much of a "deal" in that case, I might aswell have just gone for an early bird.

We've made a point to only buy the deals where its say €20 for €40's worth of food. That way you know you can order whatever you like, not be restricted to the cheap crap.

I remember we went to Tante Zoe (I think thats the name) on a deal voucher. Its supposed to be cajun and they do things like Gumbo and Jambalaya. Well the menu we were handed didn't have any of the gumbo or jambalaya dishes and the most "cajun" dish on it was cajun chicken/salmon. Something you will find on a lot of pub menus.

schemingbohemia

JayRoc wrote: »

In fairness, on the standard menu it DID mention 12.5% being added to the bill automatically as a "discretionary" charge...I assumed if applied it would be 12.5% of what I had actually paid, but at that stage it was too late anyway. I only had a tenner on me and no card.

I don't object in principle to tipping an amount consistent with the normal price of the meal, if I'd been flush I may well have done. I'd even say that maybe I should have brought a larger tip with me in the first place or else not have gone to dinner there.

But I object to not being able to decide for myself how much to tip, or at least for the voucher to have a note advising of the charge so I wouldn't have been caught short.
I would consider myself far more assertive than the average person (without being a pushy dickhead) but even I would probably balk at haggling over a charge like that if I was in company.

I would simply resolve never to come there again.

Sorry but did you not understand what discretionary meant?

The waiter in this instance did exactly what would be expected at l'ecrivain and not make a fuss of it. You said you didn't have the money on you for that, it was removed from the bill, what's the problem?

JayRoc wrote: »

But who (in real life not the internet!) regardless of whether or not they're legally obliged to do it, is honestly going to refuse to pay part of the bill unless there was a major let-down in service (and even then, most Irish people still wouldn't make a fuss, in my experience)?

Especially if you're in company...

I would have expected anyone to pay their tip on the basis of the gross cost not the discounted cost - so you'd tip €2 when you've had €40 worth of food? Really?

OldNotWIse

the beer revolu wrote: »

That's news to me.

Sometimes menus will say "service charge for parties of 6 or more" so I guess it can be compulsory?

OldNotWIse

loveisdivine wrote: »

We used that same voucher and they didn't add a tip to ours. I thought it was great value too and excellent service. We didn't want the foie gras course so they swapped it for the hake dish off the main menu instead.

What annoys me most when you buy a restaurant "deal" is getting there and being handed a ****ty menu that only has a tiny selection of dishes on it.
Its not much of a "deal" in that case, I might aswell have just gone for an early bird.

We've made a point to only buy the deals where its say €20 for €40's worth of food. That way you know you can order whatever you like, not be restricted to the cheap crap.

I remember we went to Tante Zoe (I think thats the name) on a deal voucher. Its supposed to be cajun and they do things like Gumbo and Jambalaya. Well the menu we were handed didn't have any of the gumbo or jambalaya dishes and the most "cajun" dish on it was cajun chicken/salmon. Something you will find on a lot of pub menus.

Yup, or when there are supplements for everything. Whats the point? Give with one hand and take it back with the other. Also annoying is charging a few euro extra to put chicken in a caesar salad - isnt it meant to have chicken in it?

janja

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Yup, or when there are supplements for everything. Whats the point? Give with one hand and take it back with the other. Also annoying is charging a few euro extra to put chicken in a caesar salad - isnt it meant to have chicken in it?

No just lardons of bacon .(rashers)

JayRoc

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sorry but did you not understand what discretionary meant?

Of course I know what it means. But I object to any restaurant deciding for the customer how much they ought to tip. I wasn't worried about being legally obliged to pay the service charge...I was embarrassed because I hadn't enough to cover it and had to go through the rigmarole of a waiter going to his manager to ask if it could be removed. Do you get me?

As we all know, in the real world the vast majority of Irish people would pay any service charge added to their bill whether it was "discretionary" or not, and the restaurant knows this. So the "discretionary" bit is meaningless.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I would have expected anyone to pay their tip on the basis of the gross cost not the discounted cost - so you'd tip €2 when you've had €40 worth of food? Really?

Fair enough, that's why I posted. I wanted other people's opinions on that. Bear in mind I wasn't aware of the regular price of the meal when we booked it, I just knew we were getting it cheap, but take your point, absolutely.

dudara

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Also annoying is charging a few euro extra to put chicken in a caesar salad - isnt it meant to have chicken in it?

A Caesar salad is just that, a salad. It means leaves with Caesar salad dressing. Chicken Caesar salad is more.

Back to the original topic - I also ate at l'Ecrivain on the voucher deal. For the sake of comparison, I should say that I've also eaten there as a "regular" customer as well. Food was good, but the service felt a little rushed and not *quite* at the standard I'd expect.

DebDynamite

OP, a discretionary service charge is quite common in many restaurants, so I feel you are unfair in singling L'Ecrivain out. I don't quite understand why you say you have resolved to never go to again - you said yourself the waiter was fine in taking it off.

Are you perhaps taking your embarrassment of the situation out on L'Ecrivain?

Also, I'm sorry, but I don't know anyone who would go out for a meal (albeit one that was pre-paid) with only €10 in their pocket. What if the tap water (which I presumed was all you drank) wasn't very nice so you had to pay for bottled water? Or you fancied a side dish?

schemingbohemia

JayRoc wrote: »

Of course I know what it means. But I object to any restaurant deciding for the customer how much they ought to tip. I wasn't worried about being legally obliged to pay the service charge...I was embarrassed because I hadn't enough to cover it and had to go through the rigmarole of a waiter going to his manager to ask if it could be removed. Do you get me?

As we all know, in the real world the vast majority of Irish people would pay any service charge added to their bill whether it was "discretionary" or not, and the restaurant knows this. So the "discretionary" bit is meaningless.




Fair enough, that's why I posted. I wanted other people's opinions on that. Bear in mind I wasn't aware of the regular price of the meal when we booked it, I just knew we were getting it cheap, but take your point, absolutely.

I'm sorry but the part I have bolded is just wrong, maybe most people generally take the view that where a service charge has been added then by accepting it they are deeming the service to have been worth that, if you think the service wasn't worth that then say so.

I've asked for service charges to be removed where I found out the waitress wouldn't be getting the full amount we left cash on the table in excess of the service charge.

Don't ask, don't get.

Chewabacca

I find, whether they say it on the menu or not, places don't mind if you ask not to pay the service charge and pay the tip separately. My fear with service charges is that it won't go to the server. It's often a way for the owners to steal the servers tip.

In this case however it was very cheeky of them to charge that. They decided to do the vouchers, hence they deal with a lower tip.

I always ask to leave the tip seperately, I hate the idea of the server not getting the tip. It's the only thing that motivates them to do a good job.

Chewabacca

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm sorry but the part I have bolded is just wrong, maybe most people generally take the view that where a service charge has been added then by accepting it they are deeming the service to have been worth that, if you think the service wasn't worth that then say so.

I've asked for service charges to be removed where I found out the waitress wouldn't be getting the full amount we left cash on the table in excess of the service charge.

Don't ask, don't get.

It's a known thing in the industry that the Irish are particularly bad at not complaining when something's wrong. People will eat awful food, say its nice, pay full price and go on about it after. It's a shame as it makes the standard of foods in restaurants drop as they think the foods fine when it often isn't.