Abandoning mortgage?

michael thomas · 08-08-2013 6:46pm #1

What happens to the peole who have left their houses and mortgages and just emmigrated? Can the banks really pursue them or do they just have to suck up the loss?? btw im not thinking of doing this i was just curious as to why people would do this as how could they come back home? whats the legal stand point on the above issue?

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 7:38pm

Depends on where you've emigrated to. If it's anywhere in the EU, then you can be pursued for the debt. Outside the EU - very unlikely.

However - emigration isn't a silver bullet. What happens if you need to return to Ireland for whatever reason? If the bank's sold the property, then it'll be sold for peanuts (certainly won't cover the debt) and compound interest will be charged on the shortfall. Which the owner would be still be liable for!!

Is it worth it??

michael thomas · 08-08-2013 8:20pm

yeah, thats what i was curious about! is it worth it? do they actively try to recuperate their losses and if so how can they get you to pay it if your not in the same country??

wexie · 08-08-2013 8:30pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Depends on where you've emigrated to. If it's anywhere in the EU, then you can be pursued for the debt. Outside the EU - very unlikely.

However - emigration isn't a silver bullet. What happens if you need to return to Ireland for whatever reason? If the bank's sold the property, then it'll be sold for peanuts (certainly won't cover the debt) and compound interest will be charged on the shortfall. Which the owner would be still be liable for!!

Is it worth it??

Is there not supposed to be some kind of 7 year statute of limitations on debt?
Or so I've been told in the most vaguest of terms? (didn't sound all that plausible to me)

hfallada · 08-08-2013 8:30pm

If you emigrated I would imagine you would have to become bankrupt to stop them recovering your debts.

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 8:44pm

wexie wrote: »

Is there not supposed to be some kind of 7 year statute of limitations on debt?
Or so I've been told in the most vaguest of terms? (didn't sound all that plausible to me)

It's not. There is no Statute of Limitations on a mortgage. The debt is secured on property. It also doesn't apply to taxes.

wexie · 08-08-2013 8:48pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's not. There is no Statute of Limitations on a mortgage. The debt is secured on property. It also doesn't apply to taxes.

So just 'regular' unsecured debt then?

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 8:49pm

wexie wrote: »

So just 'regular' unsecured debt then?

Yes.

wexie · 08-08-2013 8:52pm

makes a lot more sense, it seemed a bit odd you could get out of a 30 year commitment by not paying it for only 7 :S

michael thomas · 08-08-2013 9:01pm

so how would they recover the money? and can they actually track some one? how likely are they to try and recover a sall sum considering the amount thats still owed by property tycoons?

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 9:06pm

It's not unknown for banks to chase mortgage debt outside the EU. If they track you down, that is!

A lot of people go over to the UK for a year and declare themselves bankrupt there. It's discharged after 12 months.

verysimples · 08-08-2013 10:20pm

Don't sweat it.

A.) If you plan to stay in Ireland or return soon. Your bank will get a judgement against you and anybody else on your mortgage. I.e wife, business partner etc. This can currently last for up to 12 years, for the most part banks will write it off after six/seven years. HOWEVER your credit will be bad for another seven years after the debt is settled. So you might be looking at 19 years. If you are in your twenties maybe this will work for you. Probably not though. Chances are you'll never get credit again ever.

B.) Move ANYWHERE abroad and don't leave a Hansel and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs behind you, after seven years come back and start again with no ties to your previous life at home. You''ll be in the same position as an eighteen year old starting out fresh. Typical repossession can cost up to 30K for bank, chasing you in a far off land can add significantly to this, they'd also have to pay fees to people chasing you for debt in new country etc etc. I.e NOT WORTH IT FOR THEM.

C.) Move abroad for a year or two, make sure property in Ireland has been REPOSSESSED or you have surrendered or sold the property voluntarily with the approval of the bank. Your negative equity is then unsecured debt. Then apply for bankruptcy. Move back and start again after 12-24 months when your bankruptcy has been discharged. Probably better than 19 years, and you might find that time away might convince you to stay away from pixieheadland!!!

D.) Use the Irish insolvency service and be on a defaulters list for life (even if you don't end up using them), no thanks. BAD option.

Hope this helps in some way, I had to post. Tired of seeing advice from people that have no experience of these matters.

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 10:26pm

verysimples wrote: »

Don't sweat it.

A.) If you plan to stay in Ireland or return soon. Your bank will get a judgement against you and anybody else on your mortgage. I.e wife, business partner etc. This can currently last for up to 12 years, for the most part banks will write it off after six/seven years. HOWEVER your credit will be bad for another seven years after the debt is settled. So you might be looking at 19 years. If you are in your twenties maybe this will work for you. Probably not though. Chances are you'll never get credit again ever.

B.) Move ANYWHERE abroad and don't leave a Hansel and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs behind you, after seven years come back and start again with no ties to your previous life at home. You''ll be in the same position as an eighteen year old starting out fresh. Typical repossession can cost up to 30K for bank, chasing you in a far off land can add significantly to this, they'd also have to pay fees to people chasing you for debt in new country etc etc. I.e NOT WORTH IT FOR THEM.

C.) Move abroad for a year or two, make sure property in Ireland has been REPOSSESSED. Your negative equity is then unsecured debt. Then apply for bankruptcy. Move back and start again after 12-24 months when your bankruptcy has been discharged. Probably better than 19 years, and you might find that time away might convince you to stay away from pixieheadland!!!

D.) Use the Irish insolvency service and be on a defaulters list for life (even if you don't end up using them), no thanks. BAD option.

Hope this helps in some way, I had to post. Tired of seeing advice from people that have no experience of these matters.

I assume you mean the UK? I don't know how long a bankruptcy is before discharge elsewhere...
I personally know of a case where the debtor left the keys in the door and went to Japan for four years. I have no idea HOW the bank found him (applied for credit? I don't know), but they did. He was in court for an 85k debt which was the shortfall after the bank reposessed and sold.

verysimples · 08-08-2013 10:52pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I assume you mean the UK? I don't know how long a bankruptcy is before discharge elsewhere...
I personally know of a case where the debtor left the keys in the door and went to Japan for four years. I have no idea HOW the bank found him (applied for credit? I don't know), but they did. He was in court for an 85k debt which was the shortfall after the bank reposessed and sold.

This is exactly why I posted, please reread my previous post & it's good to see that you agree with my other points.

To recap:

Irish law 12 years with Judgement, in most cases banks will write off debt six/seven years. ICB will retain this info for seven years after that date.

Nearly all EU countries offer a fair bankruptcy option, with different lengths in discharge times depending on the country. Pretty much all are better than the republic....

Your statement is unclear, was the person you know brought before a Japanese or Irish court? If it was a Japanese court do you know what legislation the charge that was brought against the person in question?

What was the outcome, and did they declare bankruptcy afterward? if so where?

verysimples · 08-08-2013 11:29pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's not. There is no Statute of Limitations on a mortgage. The debt is secured on property. It also doesn't apply to taxes.

This is scaremongering, I don't understand what pleasure/kick you get from posting this type of stuff on an anonymous message board but you should stop.

To clarify, if you default on a mortgage your bank will repossess your house and can chase you for any outstanding balance for up to twelve years. Typically they will see sense and probably halfheartedly chase you for a few years and then write it off. (Your credit will be destroyed though for another seven years) Any taxes outstanding on your home/mortgage will be finalized when the bank repossess your house. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE FILLED FOR A DEFERRAL WITH REVENUE. Otherwise you may be liable.

Hope this is of some help, Don't Panic. SH 1T happens

wexie · 08-08-2013 11:34pm

verysimples wrote: »

To clarify, if you default on a mortgage your bank will repossess your house and can chase you for any outstanding balance for up to twelve years. Typically they will see sense and probably halfheartedly chase you for a few years and then write it off. (Your credit will be destroyed though for another seven years) Any taxes outstanding on your home/mortgage will be finalized when the bank repossess your house. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE FILLED FOR A DEFERRAL WITH REVENUE. Otherwise you may be liable.

Hope this is of some help, Don't Panic. SH 1T happens

B.) Move ANYWHERE abroad and don't leave a Hansel and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs behind you, after seven years come back and start again with no ties to your previous life at home. You''ll be in the same position as an eighteen year old starting out fresh. Typical repossession can cost up to 30K for bank, chasing you in a far off land can add significantly to this, they'd also have to pay fees to people chasing you for debt in new country etc etc. I.e NOT WORTH IT FOR THEM.

Could you explain how the 2 above statements fit together?
Lets say someone was to just leave Ireland and (obviously) default on their mortgage, come back (from well outside of the EU) after 7 years.

Surely then the ICB would still have this information? How does the starting with a clean slate (like an 18 year old) fit into this?

ABajaninCork · 08-08-2013 11:46pm

verysimples wrote: »

This is scaremongering, I don't understand what pleasure/kick you get from posting this type of stuff on an anonymous message board but you should stop.

To clarify, if you default on a mortgage your bank will repossess your house and can chase you for any outstanding balance for up to twelve years. Typically they will see sense and probably halfheartedly chase you for a few years and then write it off. (Your credit will be destroyed though for another seven years) Any taxes outstanding on your home/mortgage will be finalized when the bank repossess your house. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE FILLED FOR A DEFERRAL WITH REVENUE. Otherwise you may be liable.

Hope this is of some help, Don't Panic. SH 1T happens

HOW DARE YOU??? Where the **** do you get off posting crap like this? I think YOU should stop posting if this is the way you carry on.

This post has been reported...

verysimples · 09-08-2013 12:52am

ABajainCork

Sorry for any offence caused, didn't mean to upset you.

I'm happy enough to stand by my comments on the thread though. Have you any issue with the points I made?

Again no personal offence intended

verysimples · 09-08-2013 1:14am

DON'T KNOW HOW TO QUOTE WEXIES POST #16

"For up to twelve years" is for people who they (the banks) can get engagement from. Who choose to remain in Ireland, and who don't avail of Irish insolvency.

If the bank have a good idea you have fled, debt will be written off after six/seven years. BUT they could still technically chase you up to 12 years.

To be absolutely sure of no debt when you come back to Ireland you should go bankrupt in your adopted country, make sure that this applies in Ireland though!!! If in the EU you are fine, outside you should seek legal advice.

Other than that there are many options, speak to a specialist accountant or solicitor.

It's late hope this makes sense.

Victor · 09-08-2013 6:17am

verysimples wrote: »

This is scaremongering, I don't understand what pleasure/kick you get from posting this type of stuff on an anonymous message board but you should stop.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

HOW DARE YOU??? Where the **** do you get off posting crap like this? I think YOU should stop posting if this is the way you carry on.

This post has been reported...

Knock it off both of you.

Moderator[/]

Be very wary of adopting any of the suggestions above without proper advice from a solicitor.

Attempting to walk away from a mortgage may have fundamentally life-altering implications.

Boardieman · 13-08-2013 12:22pm

This happened to a friend of mine. He was given a ridiculous mortgage during the boom when realistically she was too old to ever be able to pay it off in her lifetime. Long story short his company went bust and she could no longer pay her mortgage. He then moved out of the house and stopped paying his mortgage. Every week he receives letters but he just ignores them at this stage. For the last 4 years he has been told it will go to court and as of yet nothing has happened. There is a guy from Dublin defending people who were put in these situations by greedy banks. At this stage there is a good chance that the mortgage may be written off and he will either be allowed keep the house or it will be resold. If there is a good back-story there to why you should not of got a mortgage in the first place then technically you can just walk away and ignore the consequences. The only thing is your credit rating will be black-listed and you will probably have to live under the radar for the rest of your life. You would never be able to apply for another mortgage or loan and you could never link yourself financially to a family member again.

gaius c · 13-08-2013 12:26pm

Boardieman wrote: »

This happened to a friend of mine. She was given a ridiculous mortgage during the boom when realistically she was too old to ever be able to pay it off in her lifetime. Long story short her company went bust and she could no longer pay her mortgage. She then moved out of the house and stopped paying her mortgage. Every week she receives letters but she just ignores them at this stage. For the last 4 years she has been told it will go to court and as of yet nothing has happened. There is a lady from Dublin defending people who were put in these situations by greedy banks who should never of lended to people like my friend and she is doing all the work and research for free. At this stage there is a good chance that the mortgage may be written off and she will either be allowed keep the house or it will be resold. If there is a good back-story there to why you should not of got a mortgage in the first place then technically you can just walk away and ignore the consequences. The only thing is your credit rating will be black-listed and you will probably have to live under the radar for the rest of your life. You would never be able to apply for another mortgage or loan and you would could never link yourself financially to a family member again.

So your friend signed the contract for a ridiculous mortgage she hadn't a hope of paying off and expects to keep the house she hasn't paid a cent for in 4 years?

mitosis · 13-08-2013 12:27pm

Can someone explain to me how it is that a foreign (UK eg) court can discharge (bankrupt) a person of debts owed to Irish institutions?

Boardieman · 13-08-2013 12:47pm

gaius c wrote: »

So your friend signed the contract for a ridiculous mortgage she hadn't a hope of paying off and expects to keep the house he hasn't paid a cent for in 4 years?

Yes and well for him if he gets it. If every individual in Ireland employed their own risk management team back in 2008, things would be very different in this country today. He had plenty of money at the time to pay it off early and had no idea there was a financial crisis on the horizon. I have no time for bashing people on here, especially individuals would used to run successful businesses employing lots of people in this country that have been pigeonholed as greedy business men due to lack of regulation in the banks with regards to lending pre 2008.

gaius c · 13-08-2013 12:51pm

Boardieman wrote: »

Yes and well for him if he gets it. If every individual in Ireland employed their own risk management team back in 2008, things would be very different in this country today. He had plenty of money at the time to pay it off early and had no idea there was a financial crisis on the horizon. I have no time for bashing people on here, especially individuals would used to run successful businesses employing lots of people in this country that have been pigeonholed as greedy business men due to lack of regulation in the banks with regards to lending pre 2008.

"She" has become a "he" now?
Onto the proven liars list you go.

Boardieman · 13-08-2013 1:25pm

gaius c wrote: »

"She" has become a "he" now?
Onto the proven liars list you go.

Well done Sherlock. A hermaphrodite actually, if your first response is anything to go by.

Ray Palmer · 13-08-2013 4:14pm

I think people have a strange idea of how easy it is to disappear to another country. Then there is the idea that all is fine after you declare bankruptcy in another country.

Banks will sell these debts to debt collectors and these people will not have trouble finding you. Emigrate to Australia leaves a huge paper trail. You think everybody who can view this information won't take a bribe to find your address? Are you going to stay out of the country for 12 years?

Are you going to stop using any social media to stay in touch with family or friends? Are your kids going to?

The UK have plans to change their laws to stop bankruptcy tourists.

I am pretty sure some countries will kick you out if you aren't solvent too especially when you are on a temporary visa.

Then the final bit is you will never buy a home in this country ever again. Unlikely to ever get credit either.

If you think that debit collectors wouldn't find you I can say I would do it for the money involved as you would only need to catch 2-3 people a year to make good money. A nice trip to Australia once a year to go find people.

Might not catch everybody but enough.

Godge · 13-08-2013 4:26pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I think people have a strange idea of how easy it is to disappear to another country. Then there is the idea that all is fine after you declare bankruptcy in another country.

Banks will sell these debts to debt collectors and these people will not have trouble finding you. Emigrate to Australia leaves a huge paper trail. You think everybody who can view this information won't take a bribe to find your address? Are you going to stay out of the country for 12 years?

Are you going to stop using any social media to stay in touch with family or friends? Are your kids going to?

The UK have plans to change their laws to stop bankruptcy tourists.

I am pretty sure some countries will kick you out if you aren't solvent too especially when you are on a temporary visa.

Then the final bit is you will never buy a home in this country ever again. Unlikely to ever get credit either.

If you think that debit collectors wouldn't find you I can say I would do it for the money involved as you would only need to catch 2-3 people a year to make good money. A nice trip to Australia once a year to go find people.

Might not catch everybody but enough.

A better way for the banks to catch people in the smaller towns of Ireland is keep an eye on the death notices. You will generally be aware of the family connections and if a person comes home for the death of a parent, there is a double benefit, catch the person and get the money for the outstanding debt from the inheritance.

It will all come down to each person's individual circumstances so while there will be stories of people going to the UK and coming back and having a great life escaping their debts, there will be others who try something similar, get caught out and end up in a horrible mess.

Ray Palmer · 13-08-2013 4:48pm

Godge wrote: »

A better way for the banks to catch people in the smaller towns of Ireland is keep an eye on the death notices. .

An erratic way to find people. Much easier to wait for Christmas, Easter and summer holidays. Many people come home then

No Pants · 13-08-2013 4:49pm

Godge wrote: »

A better way for the banks to catch people in the smaller towns of Ireland is keep an eye on the death notices. You will generally be aware of the family connections and if a person comes home for the death of a parent, there is a double benefit, catch the person and get the money for the outstanding debt from the inheritance.

That's pretty much what I was going to ask about. The people who are contemplating this action are of an age where there's likely to be a future inheritance. Not even any need to "catch" a person, just the cheque before they receive it.

Mr. Loverman · 13-08-2013 4:53pm

There is no way you can stay out of the country for 7+ years.

Will you really avoid going to a loved one's funeral? Their wedding? The last chance to talk to them face to face before they die?

Most people aren't that cold. You might think you can handle it but when the situation arises you won't be able to.

Abandoning mortgage?

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