Is the MacBook worth it?

Torqay

The "cleaness of a mac"...

Damn those filthy Windoze boxes!

CDSM101

Had to choose between a windows laptop and MacBook myself last year.

I decided to go with the €1200 MBA and have loved it ever since.

I've always found it fairly initiative. Can't really understand why so many people buy them, turn them on and then moan because it's not windows!

I'd say go and try a MacBook in the shop first and decide that way.

looking_around

melekalikimaka wrote: »

and so damn slow

Did you ever spend 1200 on a windows machine??

Can also tell you haven't checked out win 8 either.

Tony EH

Fieldog wrote: »

Just for music stuff the Mac is way ahead....

I, like others, would like to know how you quantify this.

I've worked in businesses that utilise professional audio booths for sound recording and they've all used PC's. The head of the audio dept. in a previous job wouldn't use anything else.

The company I work for now uses PC's do to their audio and video work.

There really is nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't.

In fact, when I had to use a mac, I ran into all sorts of issues with files that I couldn't open and software that was cobbled together version of ehat everyone else was using on their PC's. It was, frankly, a pain in the arse.

Flash files, alone, were a bleedin nightmare.

Uberbeamerman

Bought one of the last unibody macbooks, haven't looked back since....much more stable OS, much nicer feel of keys etc (no cheap plastic) and best of all no "Windows has stopped working and is looking for a solution to the problem (which it won't find...it will just shut down the programme and all your work will be lost)"

The_Honeybadger

Uberbeamerman wrote: »

Bought one of the last unibody macbooks, haven't looked back since....much more stable OS, much nicer feel of keys etc (no cheap plastic) and best of all no "Windows has stopped working and is looking for a solution to the problem (which it won't find...it will just shut down the programme and all your work will be lost)"

Again this is comparing an expensive mac vs a cheap pc, (you mention cheap plastic etc so I'm guessing it wasn't a top spec pc you had), totally unfair comparison as one is a budget machine the other is not. I can't remember the last time windows crashed on me.

andrewdeerpark

mickeyk wrote: »

I can't remember the last time windows crashed on me.

Same here windows is every bit as stable and fast as a MAC with better compatibility and application choice.

Torqay

Tony EH wrote: »

The company I work for now uses PC's do to their audio and video work.

There really is nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't.

You're absolutely right.

Long gone are the golden days of Quark Xpress, when the Macintosh revolutionized dsktop publishing. Past glories. How often have I heard since, "Yes, but Macs are better for graphics, for sound, for video... blah blah blah". None of this holds true. And just when I thought I've heard it all, i'm slapped with the unsurpassable "cleaness of a mac". How bizarre.

5uspect

I use OS X, Windows and various flavours of Linux on a daily basis. Based on this experience I've found you can do pretty much the same thing on all of them, within reason, and software support. Some tasks are easier than others, while some can require a lot of messing about. Linux and OS X are POSIX systems so you get a proper UNIX terminal out of the box. You'll have to install Cygwin or PuTTy for Windows. You can get Office, if you must, for both Windows and OS X but not for Linux unless you want to try Wine. (LibreOffice works on everything)

Historically Photoshop was a Macintosh only affair. Of course it was inevitable that it would come to Windows, but Apple have been considered more common within the creative professions as a result. Partially because of this Macs come with high quality displays. But it's more related to the differences between how Apple and Windows machine are marketed.

Microsoft are happy to let their OS be distributed on a wide range of hardware. This is mostly great, you can build a powerful machine and stick Windows on it and off you go. It has a downside in that many OEMs are happy to hobble ****ty machines together and fill them with bloatware. (interestingly we're seeing almost the exact same thing happen with Android)

Apple take a different tack. They design the hardware and the OS in tandem Something Microsoft is now attempting with their Surface. Instead of building a gaming powerhouse or a low cost OEM box as above, they tend to go for a well built solid all rounder. So yes you can get more powerful machines, you can get cheaper machines but you're not likely to get all that in one. Invariably you're going to have to contend with a crappy touchpad/keyboard or a low gamut screen. Of course you pay for the privilege.

Linux on the other hand is broadly used within research. Like OS X it comes with a host of compilers (gcc), interpreted languages (Python) and tools pre-installed. Windows typically does not - but it's not lacking such support if you go looking for it. Anyway you'll typically find Linux on high end workstations and clusters.

Out of all these platforms I prefer a Mac laptop running OS X for day to day use. I write code on my Mac (I even use Vim) and distribute it out to other machines. I write papers in TeXShop and generate beautiful equations in LaTeXit. Native PDF support in OS X is awesome. I use CAELinux for running numerical simulations. I play games on my custom built Windows machine and use it for precessing RAW camera files.

I tried to use Ubuntu on a Dell Laptop for a few years but the terrible driver support by wifi vendors in particular made it a royal pain. Windows 7 is a fine OS but I miss my multiple desktops when using it (yes I know it can be hacked in). Windows 8 on the other hand is a nightmare (I've used it since the developer preivew). Microsoft's insistence on putting a ribbon interface on everything with a widescreen leaving a letterbox of space behind drives me nuts. It seems that since Vista they attempt to copy the aesthetic of a user interface but completely miss the intended purpose. (The ribbon tabs are similar to the panels you find in Adobe software but lack the control and workflow they were designed for)

So to conclude I can't understand all the Apple hate. The only thing that makes sense to me that most of the haters either haven't used OS X for any extended period of time or have never used a non-Windows system and simply don't understand the advantages of a POSIX system that can run popular commercial software.

Torqay

5uspect wrote: »

So to conclude I can't understand all the Apple hate.

I don't hate Apple. I'm just tired of silly argiments like superior hardware, better value, better "cleaness", better for sound engineering, better for graphic design, better for video editing, better for everything.

If you buy a Core i5 MacBook it will be just as outdated in 3 years as any Windows laptop with the same specs. If you're willing to spend 1,200 yoyos for it, be my guest. The question was, is it worth to spend this kinda money for surfing the interwebs and doing some college work and my answer is "are you kidding me?"

If you're buying an Apple, you're buying prestige. But please don't tell me there's anything I can't do with any other computer.

another question

Torqay wrote: »

I don't hate Apple. I'm just tired of silly argiments like superior hardware, better value, better "cleaness", better for sound engineering, better for graphic design, better for video editing, better for everything.

If you buy a Core i5 MacBook it will be just as outdated in 3 years as any Windows laptop with the same specs. If you're willing to spend 1,200 yoyos for it, be my guest. The question was, is it worth to spend this kinda money for surfing the interwebs and doing some college work and my answer is "are you kidding me?"

If you're buying an Apple, you're buying prestige. But please don't tell me there's anything I can't do with any other computer.

If only I bothered to ask the 'Is the MacBook worth it?' question myself before I went to the bother of ordering it, waiting for it to arrive, opening it, being disappointed, calling Apple to arrange a return, packing it back up after watching several YouTube videos on how to use it, then waiting for the courier, saying goodbye and now waiting for my refund so that I can buy the same beautiful design and same spec if not better but with Windows 8 that I can use for €400 cheaper. Ahhhhh.

Gael23

One thing does really appeal to me about the mac is the small screen size which I think makes it look neater. But other than that a Samsung with the core i5 can be got for around €750

shamrock55

No!, i used a macbook pro for 3 months last year and i hated everything about it, i wouldnt take one if it was given to me for free,but thats just me;)

5uspect

Torqay wrote: »

I don't hate Apple. I'm just tired of silly argiments like superior hardware, better value, better "cleaness", better for sound engineering, better for graphic design, better for video editing, better for everything.

If you buy a Core i5 MacBook it will be just as outdated in 3 years as any Windows laptop with the same specs. If you're willing to spend 1,200 yoyos for it, be my guest. The question was, is it worth to spend this kinda money for surfing the interwebs and doing some college work and my answer is "are you kidding me?"

If you're buying an Apple, you're buying prestige. But please don't tell me there's anything I can't do with any other computer.

It's not just about the GHz of the CPU. You seem to obsess on this single factor. It's the entire experience. Unless you're running simulations or playing games a three year old intel CPU isn't going to hold you back for general usage. If anything the only real difference is power consumption and thermals. OS X has always been much more power efficient than windows. (I'm not sure how this compares to Windows 8, the battery in my Dell was toast)

Yes a Mac and OS X is cleaner. Windows 8 is a mess, the current state of explorer alone is appalling. On the other hand Finder is clean and uncluttered. That's not to say that you can't do things the same tasks on either machine, one is simply more ergonomic. Similarity the hardware is free of the usual visual details you often see in plastic laptops. Things like ribbing and seams and faux vents that fill up with dust don't exist. Apple's industrial design is clean and others are copying it. Heck even Microsoft borrowed heavily from OS X before they jumped off the edge with 8.

The whole package can be better. I have the exact same keyboard on my own MBP and on my work iMac. I can move from one machine to another with ease. I frequently use the screen zoom feature in OS X, the windows equivalent is clunky.

As I said above you'll struggle to find a machine with all these software and hardware benefits in one unit. You won't get a trackpad as good, you have to make do with a crap screen or a poor battery life. If you do manage to find such a system you be paying just as much if not more.

5uspect

shamrock55 wrote: »

No!, i used a macbook pro for 3 months last year and i hated everything about it, i wouldnt take one if it was given to me for free,but thats just me;)

Care to elaborate? Was it just that everything was unfamiliar as a Windows user? Or are you a die hard Linux user who wanted their gnome desktop back?

AlmightyCushion

5uspect wrote: »

As I said above you'll struggle to find a machine with all these software and hardware benefits in one unit. You won't get a trackpad as good, you have to make do with a crap screen or a poor battery life. If you do manage to find such a system you be paying just as much if not more.

5 or more years ago you would have been right but nowadays Windows laptops have come a long way. Good battery life and touchpads are on a lot of models even on some budget models. Screen resolution is still stuck at 1366x768 on those models though. Microsoft should ban that resolution from anything with a screen size bigger than 13". It's horrid.

When you look at premium models like the Series 7 Chronos then you get a great laptop that has similar performance and features to Apple laptops.

Apple make great laptops, there is no denying that but the way some people go on you'd swear they were the only company who made great laptops and every other computer manufacturer just shít in a box and glued a screen to it.

melekalikimaka

Torqay wrote: »

You're absolutely right.

Long gone are the golden days of Quark Xpress, when the Macintosh revolutionized dsktop publishing. Past glories. How often have I heard since, "Yes, but Macs are better for graphics, for sound, for video... blah blah blah". None of this holds true. And just when I thought I've heard it all, i'm slapped with the unsurpassable "cleaness of a mac". How bizarre.

final cut

The_Honeybadger

I certainly don't hate apple either, and own several of their products which are all great. I think people just get annoyed about being lectured to by mac users about how much cleverer than you they are because they chose to own a mac, and the baseless and often ridiculous sweeping generalisations that some people make about pc's, eg windows crashes constantly etc. it's all down to personal opinion, choice and budget at the end of the day, and neither is necessarily better.

whiteandlight

I hemmed and hawed about on in June. Bought one in the end (friend it it in the states so a bit cheaper than here)

Best decision I've ever made-I adore the thing! It's slim (air), fast, similar gestures to the iPad, os was easy to get used to and I spend more time on my laptop now than I ever had on any previous one

Ziegfeldgirl27

I thought about getting a Macbook Pro for ages. Finally decided to get one last October.

It is absolutely the best thing I have ever done. I think it is a brilliant machine. Took a little while to get used to since I used Windows all my life, but I cannot tell you how much I love it. I will never get Windows again. I have not had a single problem with it, nor has it slowed down on me.

Torqay

5uspect wrote: »

It's not just about the GHz of the CPU.

Yep, thet's what I'd be telling myself if I just bought a horribly overpriced piece of kit.

5uspect wrote: »

Windows 8 is a mess

I wholeheartedly agree, but there are plenty alternatives like those many beautiful Linux distros to choose from or Windows 7 (80 yoyos if you're not entitled to a free downgrade).

5uspect wrote: »

you'll struggle to find a machine with all these software and hardware benefits in one unit.

Whom are you kidding? Under the hood you'll find exactly the same hardware or do you really believe, Apple is getting their Intel processors and Nvidia graphic chips from different shelves than other manufacturers?

And the software benefits are clearly on the Windows side as the users have a vastly greater variety to choose from.

Corvo Attano

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I spend more time on my laptop now than I ever had on any previous one

I cant believe that OS X is convincing you to go on your laptop for any longer than you would be on any other one. The OS is "fun" to use so its not whats keeping you on the laptop.

looking_around

5uspect wrote: »

Windows 8 is a mess, the current state of explorer alone is appalling. On the other hand Finder is clean and uncluttered.

Oh yeah, cause finder works soooo well!!!! :pac:

If you do manage to find such a system you be paying just as much if not more.

Of course, if you want a top rate machine, you have to pay top dollar. That's what we want people to see. TOO many compare mac with cheap windows models. Which is always an unfair comparison.

5uspect

Torqay wrote: »

Yep, thet's what I'd be telling myself if I just bought a horribly overpriced piece of kit.

...

Whom are you kidding? Under the hood you'll find exactly the same hardware or do you really believe, Apple is getting their Intel processors and Nvidia graphic chips from different shelves than other manufacturers?

Component binning is common practise with OEMs. You're applying a custom desktop building mentality to a laptop. What's the point of an overpowered CPU if the chassis gets uncomfortably hot? What if the cooling fan is too loud? What if it weighs 4kg because of the huge copper heatsink? What if the battery only lasts a few hours because they need to keep the weight down? What if the keyboard is crap? What if the touchpad is the size of a postage stamp? What if the custom OEM software for the touchpad is rubbish? What if there is no linux support for the wifi card?

You cannot simply compare mobile devices, be it a laptop or tablet, based on the specs of just one or two common components. The whole equation must balance. You keep ignoring this.

And the software benefits are clearly on the Windows side as the users have a vastly greater variety to choose from.

But PC shipments are falling off a cliff, most people are realising all they need is a web browser, word processor and an email client at a stretch. Your average PC perhaps runs MS Office and not much else. Going back to your previous point, there is very little that you can do under Windows that you can't do with any other OS.

The main benefit of Windows is gaming. It's probably the main thing keeping high end hardware sales going too. Specialist software will usually dictate your choice from the outset, and there's probably just as much specialist software across the Windows/OS X/Linux platforms since they're popular in so many different areas.

looking_around wrote: »

Oh yeah, cause finder works soooo well!!!! :pac:

It's not perfect but it's infinity better than this monstrosity:

Of course, if you want a top rate machine, you have to pay top dollar. That's what we want people to see. TOO many compare mac with cheap windows models. Which is always an unfair comparison.

Of course, that's exactly what's I been saying! Both side of the debate are guilty of this.

Torqay

5uspect wrote: »

most people are realising all they need is a web browser, word processor and an email client at a stretch.

And Apple will give them all that for only 2 grand.

shleedance

I've a MBP 17" and I have to say, it's frankly a waste of money. I only got mine due the course being fully Mac-based. It works fine as a laptop, but I could have got much better for less in terms of performance. At the time of buying it, a Windows-based laptop with similar specs cost... nearly 1000 less.

On top of that, I'm not too keen on OSX. It works fine as an OS, but I much prefer Windows for it's better file management, handling of windows and easier access to "under the hood" functions if things go wrong. If OSX has a problem with a driver or device (and it does with some hardware I have), good luck fixing it. Simply put, "it just works" is a false claim.

looking_around

@5uspect:

Well I've never used copy in that way..or the clipboard. So I can't comment.

But as to actually finding anything, explorer does this better.

__
On your post about the heating and fans.
There are laptops, with the same build/spec as macs. Only difference is the OS. Are you saying windows can't bring these altogether well? With equal battery life? Lolz at that.

andrewdeerpark

Torqay wrote: »

And Apple will give them all that for only 2 grand.

Plus the MAC sales are stagnant so the personal computer is not selling (PC and MAC) at the expense of tablets and smartphones.

5uspect

looking_around wrote: »

@5uspect:

Well I've never used copy in that way..or the clipboard. So I can't comment.

But as to actually finding anything, explorer does this better.

I don't understand what you're saying here. OS X uses almost the exact same file system as any UNIX system. You have a home directory, ~, and all your usual directories are found there. Windows is much the same, but you don't the the handy tilde shortcut. Win 7 introduced Libraries, I had to explain them to pretty much everyone I know who was using it at the time and had no idea where their files actually were.

As regards finding things, spotlight in OS X (and copied by MS) is pretty quick at finding files. I find it better than the Microsoft implementation as in Windows you have to type the exact utility name for Windows to return a result. msconfig for example. You just need to hit CMD+Space instead of Super on a Windows keyboard.

__
On your post about the heating and fans.
There are laptops, with the same build/spec as macs. Only difference is the OS. Are you saying windows can't bring these altogether well? With equal battery life? Lolz at that.

'Windows' doesn't build Laptops, that's the point. OEMs do. And they typically try to build them as cheap as possible (which is what we all expect of them). Now Torqay is insisting that it's foolish to buy a machine with a less powerful CPU. What I'm saying is that you're better off going for a system with a balanced set of components. Pick parts what work well together from metrics other than raw performance.

Take a look at any number of laptops on somewhere like Anandtech and you will see machines that are hamstrung by various factors. Apple typically do well in this area because they control everything. A lot of OEMs have a 'good enough' mentality - Dell in particular.

As I've already said, PC sales are falling off a cliff. Apple is one of the few who are actually growing. As a result there is a scramble amongst the likes of Samsung and Asus etc. in the last couple of years to build similar machines in the intel ultrabook spec. And only recently are we seeing the same level of quality, and at similar prices.

Asking him to show me a machine of complete, comparable components is a different point. What you find is that OS X is more energy efficient than Windows but has poorer 3D performance on the same hardware.

andrewdeerpark

5uspect wrote: »

As I've already said, PC sales are falling off a cliff. Apple is one of the few who are actually growing.

No they are not:

http://www.imore.com/mac-sales-slip-latest-apple-quarterly-results-whats-it-mean

iOS - Iphone and Ipad is the apple profit machine, with iTunes doing good aswell not MACS.

5uspect

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

No they are not:

http://www.imore.com/mac-sales-slip-latest-apple-quarterly-results-whats-it-mean

iOS - Iphone and Ipad is the apple profit machine, with iTunes doing good aswell not MACS.

Sorry, that was market share not sales. They're taking more of a shrinking market so the market is responding to them by making similar products. That was my point.

shleedance

I would say the advent of cheap tablets is one of the reasons why Windows PCs are falling out of favour. Buy a half-decent android tablet for under €200 and most people's needs are met. My mother got a tablet from argos for about €120, and now she uses it much more than her previous laptop!

The other problem is this: cheap, crap, mass-produced laptops advertised in stores such as PC World. They don't last long, come loaded with bloated software and are woefully underspecced for anything that's more than typical office stuff. They should be banned and companies should be forced to make more high quality computers. Windows is not the issue here.

Torqay

shleedance wrote: »

The other problem is this: cheap, crap, mass-produced laptops advertised in stores such as PC World. They don't last long, come loaded with bloated software and are woefully underspecced for anything that's more than typical office stuff. They should be banned and companies should be forced to make more high quality computers. Windows is not the issue here.

There is that... you buy cheap, you get cheap.

My advice for college students with money to burn: If you want something that lasts, get a Thinkpad T, starting at around 900 yoyos, you'll get a laptop that can take a helluva lot more abuse than anything Apple has to offer. Not as flashy as a MBA, au contraire, ugly as sh*t but it is build like a tank and similarly robust.

Overheal

Fieldog wrote: »

Bull****....

I hate Apple generally, dont own an iphone or pad but yet I own a Macbook Pro - purely for Music stuff, I couldn't do what I need to do with music on a Windows platform....

I'm sure the same could be said about a graphic designer using Photoshop, he is hardly gonna have a Windows machine....

Im too tired for my normal rigamarole where I would break apart this asinine post in rather comical fashion. Suffice it will to say that is utter tripe, I cant think of what you would do with music you cant do on windows and anything to do with graphics I'd rather get a workstation laptop with a workstation card - you know, the kind of graphics cards that are engineered to render things far better in applications like Adobe/Maya/etc etc etc than a traditional consumer card, which are the only cards you see in the mac laptops. The Mac Pro is another story, but even it is not running anything you cant find or build for a windows environment. Speaking of which, while the new Mac Pro "trashcan" is actually a rather beautiful machine and when you break it down really appeals to my nerdy engineer side of my personality, it comes at a practically-ridiculous price point to boot. Am I mad I didn't design it first? Yes! The thermal design for the case is admittedly genius. But that doesn't mean Im going to pay for it. I'd sooner build my own machine by hand for half the price. The real point though is that the mac isn't doing anything that makes it any better at professional graphics than a PC.

When you look at premium models like the Series 7 Chronos then you get a great laptop that has similar performance and features to Apple laptops.

Its been rebranded the Ativ Book 8 I believe. Sold one to a colleague. For the same price as an i5/4gb/500gb MBP she got an i7/8GB/1TB/1GB GDDR5 8770 Radeon with a touch screen and more ports and connections sans DVD drive. Samsung is hot on the heels of Apple since the death of Jobs. They are across the US ingrained in Best Buy retail stores as a Premium brand, with their own "store within a store" dedicated sections staffed with samsung-payroll experts in every store in the company. They are gaining serious traction, when they sell phones, laptops, tablets and televisions. They have blown the roof on this myth that you need Apple for the Ecosystem Experience. I have to give them kudos. The other thing Samsung is up on, and a few other vendors now, its newer tech like Wacom digitizers. Apple shot themselves in the foot by not joining that initiative. Their computers are starting to feel dated with a lack of touch and a lack of digital pen tech.

I think the Mac brand has changed so much in the last decade this discussion was really warranted again. Maybe back during the "Im a Mac" campaign this was more of a fanboi thing but with the emergence of serious competitors and more choices in the phone and tablet sectors its perfectly fair to put Apple under the microscope and see if its really worth it. Frankly, I feel as though they are approaching a crisis point where they might have to redecide what position they want in the industry, because their current position is being severely threatened.

looking_around

5uspect wrote: »

I don't understand what you're saying here.

I was simply talking about using "search".

Overheal

^ hold your breath, because 8.1 preview broke the search function. broke it horrifically. And I sincerely hope its just a bug with how I installed it or something but I cant get the search to work as described and have been crawling around the OS like - like I have windows XP or something. Bleh. Glad I installed it on my testbed laptop.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

8.1 preview broke the search function. broke it horrifically.

MS bought all sorts of cr@p... why didn't they buy Voidtools?

Overheal wrote: »

And I sincerely hope its just a bug with how I installed it or something but I cant get the search to work as described and have been crawling around the OS

Like so many people before you crawled around the OS in search for a decent start menu and shutdown button?

Tony EH

Torqay wrote: »

You're absolutely right.

Long gone are the golden days of Quark Xpress, when the Macintosh revolutionized dsktop publishing. Past glories. How often have I heard since, "Yes, but Macs are better for graphics, for sound, for video... blah blah blah". None of this holds true. And just when I thought I've heard it all, i'm slapped with the unsurpassable "cleaness of a mac". How bizarre.

It's gas, isn't it?

It's impossible to stress just how long it is since those days too. We're talking decades and still there are people, some of whom were too young to be using PC's or Mac back then, repeating these hoary old cliches.

If people want to use a mac, that's perfectly fine. But it's the "there just better" crowd that display an ubelievable ignorance and constantly throw their weight around.

In saying that, I dispise Apple as a business and hate the business models. the whole nonsense with Samsung and Motorola recently just showed how petty Steve Jobs was and pathetic Apple is as a company.

another question

shleedance wrote: »

I've a MBP 17" and I have to say, it's frankly a waste of money. I only got mine due the course being fully Mac-based. It works fine as a laptop, but I could have got much better for less in terms of performance. At the time of buying it, a Windows-based laptop with similar specs cost... nearly 1000 less.

On top of that, I'm not too keen on OSX. It works fine as an OS, but I much prefer Windows for it's better file management, handling of windows and easier access to "under the hood" functions if things go wrong. If OSX has a problem with a driver or device (and it does with some hardware I have), good luck fixing it. Simply put, "it just works" is a false claim.

Couldn't agree with this more. File management and access to 'under the hood' functions was a seemingly impossible task to me, even after spending a couple of hours using the os. To uninstall a programme - simply move it to trash. That was definitely not good enough for me.

The_Honeybadger

Torqay wrote: »

There is that... you buy cheap, you get cheap.

My advice for college students with money to burn: If you want something that lasts, get a Thinkpad T, starting at around 900 yoyos, you'll get a laptop that can take a helluva lot more abuse than anything Apple has to offer. Not as flashy as a MBA, au contraire, ugly as sh*t but it is build like a tank and similarly robust.

Toyally agree and Lenovo outlet store has them for around 700 sometimes. The x series looks much nicer if you can't bear to look at the t series

5uspect

another question wrote: »

Couldn't agree with this more. File management and access to 'under the hood' functions was a seemingly impossible task to me, even after spending a couple of hours using the os. To uninstall a programme - simply move it to trash. That was definitely not good enough for me.

This is just as bad as those claiming that one system is 'just better'. You're not giving any substantive examples. What constitutes an 'under the hood' function?
You have a full terminal emulator if you want to dig deep. What does good file management consist of? Windows didn't even have a equivalent to Disk Utility until Vista. (Not to mention indexed search). File preview in OSX is bounds better than Windows with Quick Look.

The reason you can just drag applications to the trash is because of the way OS X and many UNIX systems are built. Everything is a file - there is no registry. There is just a compiled executable. Why would you want a complicated uninstall? If you're worried about left overs there are clean up applications (just like in Windows).

I can install some program (even compile it from source and put it on /opt/ or /Applications/ or wherever. I can set up my environment if necessary and run that program. If I want to I can rm that directory and it's gone. What on earth is wrong with that?! There are tons of Windows programs that are exactly the same.

If you don't like the feel of the OS then fine, that's subjective and down to the individual. If you're applying a Windows mentality to different OS then you're making a mistake. UNIX systems are very different under the hood.

shleedance

OS9 and before also had this "feature" of making applications a pain to uninstall, which was clearly not UNIX based. To point out, it would be easy if everything was bundled into a singular area, but some programs do not follow this and thus causes a lot of hassle to remove. I have had issues with kernel panics simply because I removed programs such as Parallels, because without a cleaner program I would not be able to find all the necessary files, and those files are loaded up with the OS on startup. The advantage of having an uninstall system built right into the OS is simply to avoid these issues. It's not perfect - some files are indeed left over, but there is no risk of causing havoc to the OS itself. Having to rely on a cleanup program to uninstall programs is a failure of the OS itself, as far as I'm concerned.

As for the file system, I am aware a terminal is at hand. But why would I have to mess with command lines just to sort folders out neatly, tidy up windows without hassle and so on? OSX may be UNIX based (actually a hybrid kernel with bits of BSD to be pedantic), but clearly it's not aimed at UNIX users. If I want to mess with a command line, I stick to messing with Linux or other UNIX-inspired OSes. With Windows, it handles it's files brilliantly in this aspect - folders can easily be sorted, arranged and so on without hassle. While you can do this too on OSX, the problem is that it stores it on a strictly folder to folder basis, and sometimes it even forgets that or changes behavior depending on how you entered the folder (ie. if you went straight into the HDD via desktop rather than through opening Finder first). It is clumsy and half arsed at best, and Finder replacements such as Path Finder do a far superior job.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

Like so many people before you crawled around the OS in search for a decent start menu and shutdown button?

nothing that bad. the sidebar still functions but the search charm has broken functionality. I just have to navimigate to the desktop>settings charm>control panel>etc etc to get to windows update at the moment instead of the simpler call-up from the search

5uspect

shleedance wrote: »

OS9 and before also had this "feature" of making applications a pain to uninstall, which was clearly not UNIX based. To point out, it would be easy if everything was bundled into a singular area, but some programs do not follow this and thus causes a lot of hassle to remove. I have had issues with kernel panics simply because I removed programs such as Parallels, because without a cleaner program I would not be able to find all the necessary files, and those files are loaded up with the OS on startup. The advantage of having an uninstall system built right into the OS is simply to avoid these issues. It's not perfect - some files are indeed left over, but there is no risk of causing havoc to the OS itself. Having to rely on a cleanup program to uninstall programs is a failure of the OS itself, as far as I'm concerned.

Erm... Mac OS 9 was not a UNIX based OS - and is about 15 years old. Why don't we compare with Windows 98?

As for the file system, I am aware a terminal is at hand. But why would I have to mess with command lines just to sort folders out neatly, tidy up windows without hassle and so on? OSX may be UNIX based (actually a hybrid kernel with bits of BSD to be pedantic), but clearly it's not aimed at UNIX users. If I want to mess with a command line, I stick to messing with Linux or other UNIX-inspired OSes. With Windows, it handles it's files brilliantly in this aspect - folders can easily be sorted, arranged and so on without hassle. While you can do this too on OSX, the problem is that it stores it on a strictly folder to folder basis, and sometimes it even forgets that or changes behavior depending on how you entered the folder (ie. if you went straight into the HDD via desktop rather than through opening Finder first). It is clumsy and half arsed at best, and Finder replacements such as Path Finder do a far superior job.

Who said anything about sorting folders with a terminal. You're making claims about doing things under the hood and when I point out that you have a powerful UNIX terminal you change the goalposts and go on about using a terminal to sort folders?!

I've worked in universities and research groups where Linux on workstations and clusters is the norm and the majority of the Academics used MacBook Pros as their primary machines because it offers them all the benefits of a UNIX based system in a well put together package. Installing Linux on a laptop can be a pain. You're not guaranteed driver support and updates can break what work you've done to get things working. I remember having to recompile a wifi driver to include a delay in the authentication handshake so it could actually connect.

shleedance

Thank you for pointing out something I already pointed out - OS9 is not UNIX based. Perfectly aware of its age too, have been using it on my old G3 iMac! I mentioned OS9 simply to point out that the issues with uninstalling programs were not exactly due to the nature of OSX, and is a "feature" that carried on. It's true the likes of Linux have similar issues, but are sorted with package managers.

You mentioned using a terminal, then with a vague question to file management. I picked that up as suggesting to use the terminal for file management. If I picked this up wrong, then I'm wrong, however my point about its file management still stands. Fix this up and I would tolerate OSX a whole lot more, since to me such things are important for workflow.

If I have a problem with hardware or drivers, in OSX all you can really do is mess about with kexts and fix permissions, and that is usually hit and miss. I had to do this with some of my hardware (ie. my audio interface) simply because the software did not install all the necessary components in the first place. There's no dedicated hardware manager were you can do this easily. Using the terminal is a pain in this regard, and again not exactly something most people will use.

I am not saying OSX is a rubbish OS, just pointing out what I feel are its downfalls.

Smash The House

if your still considering OP ....Buy any mac in Harvey Norman at the moment and get a free €100 voucher

Gael23

I had seen that alright. Not sure if it can be used with it or nor but can find out.

Eogclouder

Overheal wrote: »

nothing that bad. the sidebar still functions but the search charm has broken functionality. I just have to navimigate to the desktop>settings charm>control panel>etc etc to get to windows update at the moment instead of the simpler call-up from the search

It's much easier to hit the windows key and just start typing if you want to use search, much smoother than accessing the charms bar.

AlmightyCushion

Eogclouder wrote: »

It's much easier to hit the windows key and just start typing if you want to use search, much smoother than accessing the charms bar.

In windows 8 if you hit the windows key and start typing it will do a search as well.

mathepac

Then of course there are the advantages of doing business with Apple that in my mind don't get enough publicity :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86005376&postcount=32

Customer Service, Customer Service and Customer Service.