Gotham (Fox) [** Spoilers **]

bren2001

Personally thought it was a ridiculous way to introduce the Joker. We had this before when we first met Jerome. At the end of an episode or two he dies and it's proposed that the Joker is an idea more than a person with it cutting to different people laughing. They brought Jerome back to life and started to flesh out his character. There was some motive to everything he was doing. They have bizarrely decided to throw all that in the bin and the Joker will now form out of his non-evil twin brother who was gassed and turned evil. The thing is, this might not even be the case, the impact of death has completely been removed by the showrunners. Jerome could easily be brought back to life like so many characters. I also wonder how many people Gordon has shot and killed at this stage because he is racking them up. This arc really highlights how poorly written this is. Its just needless twist after needless twist.

Some of the small details on the show are extremely annoying. For example, when Gordon is trying to save Jerome its broad daylight, he falls onto the car and dies. By the time Gordon gets down there, its nighttime. Just silly mistakes.

Clareman

bren2001 wrote: »

Personally thought it was a ridiculous way to introduce the Joker. We had this before when we first met Jerome. At the end of an episode or two he dies and it's proposed that the Joker is an idea more than a person with it cutting to different people laughing. They brought Jerome back to life and started to flesh out his character. There was some motive to everything he was doing. They have bizarrely decided to throw all that in the bin and the Joker will now form out of his non-evil twin brother who was gassed and turned evil. The thing is, this might not even be the case, the impact of death has completely been removed by the showrunners. Jerome could easily be brought back to life like so many characters. I also wonder how many people Gordon has shot and killed at this stage because he is racking them up. This arc really highlights how poorly written this is. Its just needless twist after needless twist.

Some of the small details on the show are extremely annoying. For example, when Gordon is trying to save Jerome its broad daylight, he falls onto the car and dies. By the time Gordon gets down there, its nighttime. Just silly mistakes.

The whole Indian Hills story line was a good way to introduce the villains, having the Joker given an extra layer of complexity, especially after the whole face removal thing, was great. Hopefully he's just forgotten for a while and it takes "a bad day" for Jerome to come to the front again

Chancer3001

Loving the show again

Joker is amazing! Very very well done. A bit TOOOO heath ledger at times, but I'd forgive that cos he's the best thing about the show.

I'm a bit cynical in that I think they made the twin just do they could change jeromes makeup! Was probabaly a pain in the ass for them!

New Barbara angle should be good. She s fantastic too

Clareman

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Loving the show again

Joker is amazing! Very very well done. A bit TOOOO heath ledger at times, but I'd forgive that cos he's the best thing about the show.

I'm a bit cynical in that I think they made the twin just do they could change jeromes makeup! Was probabaly a pain in the ass for them!

New Barbara angle should be good. She s fantastic too

I thought he was a brilliant Joker, very Hamill-esque, must watch a few of the animated movies again, the scene from the maze especially was very well done in my opinion.

jaxxx

Clareman wrote: »

I thought he was a brilliant Joker, very Hamill-esque, must watch a few of the animated movies again, the scene from the maze especially was very well done in my opinion.

Don't watch The Killing Joke anyway. My god one of the greatest Batman stories, with THE Batman and THE Joker themselves (Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill), and they made a mess of it. Even the animation wasn't great. I've watched many of the animated DC movies multiple times, but never would I watch that again.

^ Batman aside, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Death of Superman (near the end of the year I think). Footage was released a few weeks back and it looks good.

Clareman

jaxxx wrote: »

Don't watch The Killing Joke anyway. My god one of the greatest Batman stories, with THE Batman and THE Joker themselves (Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill), and they made a mess of it. Even the animation wasn't great. I've watched many of the animated DC movies multiple times, but never would I watch that again.

^ Batman aside, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Death of Superman (near the end of the year I think). Footage was released a few weeks back and it looks good.

It really was terrible wasn't it, the very start where

Batman and Bat-girl got it on, ffs he's a father figure

, they totally glossed over the whole Joker/Barbara thing as well, I thought they could have done it like they did with Robin in Batman Beyond but they totally glossed over it.

In regards the TV show, hopefully that's the end of the Joker now until Bruce becomes Batman, the fact that the Joker doesn't have a history is a lot to do with his mystique. IMO the best villains are the villains who are just bad, no need for a reason, they just are, bit like Vader in A New Hope, he's just a baddie, I think that built up a lot of his character.

steve_r

jaxxx wrote: »

Don't watch The Killing Joke anyway. My god one of the greatest Batman stories, with THE Batman and THE Joker themselves (Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill), and they made a mess of it. Even the animation wasn't great. I've watched many of the animated DC movies multiple times, but never would I watch that again.

^ Batman aside, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Death of Superman (near the end of the year I think). Footage was released a few weeks back and it looks good.

The Batgirl stuff they added to the Killing Joke was ridiculous. I don't like the animation but in fairness to them they may have been looking to emulate the style of the original comic

jaxxx

Clareman wrote: »

It really was terrible wasn't it, the very start where

Batman and Bat-girl got it on, ffs he's a father figure

, they totally glossed over the whole Joker/Barbara thing as well, I thought they could have done it like they did with Robin in Batman Beyond but they totally glossed over it.

In regards the TV show, hopefully that's the end of the Joker now until Bruce becomes Batman, the fact that the Joker doesn't have a history is a lot to do with his mystique. IMO the best villains are the villains who are just bad, no need for a reason, they just are, bit like Vader in A New Hope, he's just a baddie, I think that built up a lot of his character.

steve_r wrote: »

The Batgirl stuff they added to the Killing Joke was ridiculous. I don't like the animation but in fairness to them they may have been looking to emulate the style of the original comic

And isn't it ironic that yesterday I brought up The Killing Joke, and now today it's available on Sky Movies Premiere (starting in 5 minutes as well) !!! :pac: Yeah that whole Batgirl bit with Bruce was just.... ugh. I know it's been hinted in the past in other media (The Animated Series and Batman Beyond), but the way it was handled there was just bad.

The Joker is the one villain in the entirety of fiction that truly encompasses what you said Clareman about "just being bad for no reason". That Alfred quote from The Dark Knight sums it up perfectly:

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn"



Honestly when they first introduced Jerome (was it S1, S2?), I was kinda of annoyed because of what you said about Joker having an unknown origin. And now he does have an origin. A very unique one at that but, now he's just pretty much an experiment, he didn't become The Joker naturally. Unless there's a big twist coming and fools us all with Jerome coming back in some mad way.

EPAndlee

Catching up on this today. I do admire how Jerome took on the role I also like the new take with Ivy. She has grown on me excuse the pun and she's easy on the eye. My favourite character has to be Victor. Anthony Carrigan plays him well and the humour he brings to it

I don't like the whole thing of giving Joker a back story even tho there's been a few, they should just leave it a mystery.

Clareman

jaxxx wrote: »

Honestly when they first introduced Jerome (was it S1, S2?), I was kinda of annoyed because of what you said about Joker having an unknown origin. And now he does have an origin. A very unique one at that but, now he's just pretty much an experiment, he didn't become The Joker naturally. Unless there's a big twist coming and fools us all with Jerome coming back in some mad way.

Jerome and his reason for being the Joker is dead, he had problems and issues and Indian Hills and all the rest, but Jerome is dead, his brother is alive with no direct link to Jerome as well as a load of witness protection, I can put up with this new "Joker" as from the outside no one knows who he is, even his only link to the outside world is dead, btw this is a great link to the Joker knowing all Gotham's weaknesses

Sudden Valley

i'm kind of disappointed the Joker origin story makes his whole personality just drug induced. I know he's generally a victim in a lot of origin stories but he still has some agency in those- here he is 100% a victim.

Chancer3001

Sudden Valley wrote: »

i'm kind of disappointed the Joker origin story makes his whole personality just drug induced. I know he's generally a victim in a lot of origin stories but he still has some agency in those- here he is 100% a victim.

Not at all. Jerome went to great lengths to explain to the audience that his brother was just as evil/ if not more evil, than he was.
He framed Jerome. He was hiding his true personality. Maybe partly the reason he hid himself away

ERG89

jaxxx wrote:

Don't watch The Killing Joke anyway. My god one of the greatest Batman stories, with THE Batman and THE Joker themselves (Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill), and they made a mess of it. Even the animation wasn't great. I've watched many of the animated DC movies multiple times, but never would I watch that again.

I really enjoyed the Dark Knight Returns I'm not sure if people were disappointed by it. Michael Emerson was very good as the Joker imo.
I've only started watching the start of season 4 on e4 last week but I found the crime passes thing just plain stupid so I didn't seek the other episodes elsewhere.

jaxxx

Was all excited for a new episode today (or was it yesterday....) and then BAM. No episode this week. !"£??~@~:@!!!!!!!!!!

EPAndlee

Not really a fan of how the last episode played out

Chancer3001

Me neither.

Thought the 2nd last ep was better

jaxxx

Jesus christ monkeyballs... That episode was insane! All the references and the plot referencing 'The Killing Joke' and omg that ending! I did not see that coming!!

EPAndlee

jaxxx wrote: »

Jesus christ monkeyballs... That episode was insane! All the references and the plot referencing 'The Killing Joke' and omg that ending! I did not see that coming!!

Just watched it. Was not expecting that ending

Daxve

Yeah that ending! - 2 down

7 to go

Word is this will be picked up for season 5 if they can't find a replacement for Clane Crawford on Lethal Weapon and they only have a few days to do that.

Chancer3001

Amazing ending.

Weird joker tho. So monotonous. Bring back charismatic joker

jaxxx

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Amazing ending.

Weird joker tho. So monotonous. Bring back charismatic joker

Honestly I'm still undecided on how I feel about how they went with the whole Jerome/Jeremiah schtick. I just can't shake that feeling that The Joker (when Jeremiah officially becomes known as him) is now just going to be a second version rather than an original, if you get my drift? I said it back in the very first season that I thought Joker was the one character they shouldn't touch or mess with because historically he's doesn't have an origin, i.e. his past is completely unknown. Can't fault the actor who plays Herome/Jeremiah, jesus christ he's well in the league of Ledger/Nicholson/even Hamill!

Clareman

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Amazing ending.

Weird joker tho. So monotonous. Bring back charismatic joker

I'm liking this Joker, he's not supposed to be the finished article just the starting off of his peronia, or in this case 1 of multiples

EPAndlee

jaxxx wrote: »

Honestly I'm still undecided on how I feel about how they went with the whole Jerome/Jeremiah schtick. I just can't shake that feeling that The Joker (when Jeremiah officially becomes known as him) is now just going to be a second version rather than an original, if you get my drift? I said it back in the very first season that I thought Joker was the one character they shouldn't touch or mess with because historically he's doesn't have an origin, i.e. his past is completely unknown. Can't fault the actor who plays Herome/Jeremiah, jesus christ he's well in the league of Ledger/Nicholson/even Hamill!

He would be perfect for a film if they decided to make another one

CastorTroy

Renewed for final season
http://tvline.com/2018/05/13/gotham-renewed-final-season-5-fox/

Clareman

Hopefully the writers will be able to do a proper job in finishing all the different arcs as well as bringing the characters to the fore

Chancer3001

Such a pity it's the final season

jaxxx

Eh wut? Final season?? Geez! Way too soon for Bruce to become Batman (which I assume he'll do in the very last episode), goddammit he's way too young! And he hasn't had the proper training yet! AND THERE'S NO BATCAVE! Don't tell me he's gonna rapidly age into his 20's, master all known forms of martial arts AND build the batcave all in the space of a single season! Unless they do a skip forward X years thing, which would be sh@te. Fekc sake....... But I think the single most important question is, when is Jeremiah's hair gonna turn green??

McLoughlin

jaxxx wrote: »

Eh wut? Final season?? Geez! Way too soon for Bruce to become Batman (which I assume he'll do in the very last episode), goddammit he's way too young! And he hasn't had the proper training yet! AND THERE'S NO BATCAVE! Don't tell me he's gonna rapidly age into his 20's, master all known forms of martial arts AND build the batcave all in the space of a single season! Unless they do a skip forward X years thing, which would be sh@te. Fekc sake....... But I think the single most important question is, when is Jeremiah's hair gonna turn green??

His hair can't turn green as that would be too Joker like as Gotham can't use Joker name or the Joker look. There is a "Bat Embargo" on using any aspect of The Joker in Gotham.

jaxxx

McLoughlin wrote: »

His hair can't turn green as that would be too Joker like as Gotham can't use Joker name or the Joker look. There is a "Bat Embargo" on using any aspect of The Joker in Gotham.

I say again.... GEEZ! I'm pulling my hair out at this point! Flippin' mother-truckin' sons of fiddly dinks! Gah!

Daxve

They may not even get a full season order as the renewal has the episode number TBC. Rumour yesterday (before renewal) was that they’d only get 13 episodes to wrap it up as that’s all that’s needed to hit the 100 episodes required for syndication (there will be 88 episodes at the end of season 4)

Clareman

jaxxx wrote: »

Eh wut? Final season?? Geez! Way too soon for Bruce to become Batman (which I assume he'll do in the very last episode), goddammit he's way too young! And he hasn't had the proper training yet! AND THERE'S NO BATCAVE! Don't tell me he's gonna rapidly age into his 20's, master all known forms of martial arts AND build the batcave all in the space of a single season! Unless they do a skip forward X years thing, which would be sh@te. Fekc sake....... But I think the single most important question is, when is Jeremiah's hair gonna turn green??

The batcave is there, it's where his father had his supercomputer, behind the fire in the study.

leggo

I don't see it being that much of a stretch. He's already fighting crime, has some training, has the Batmobile and Batcave, has his 'public persona' seeded and accepted that this is his life's calling. He's not that far off. I had always hoped/anticipated the show would end with him leaving to get his training, so basically leading into Batman Begins. With how quickly Gotham moves, I could easily see them wrapping it up in a season, and it's probably for the best that they do.

Chancer3001

I reckon he'll end up going away with raz at the end.

Leaving Gotham behind to do his training

Pribabaly leaving to further his training cos the villains got too much for him

Frank O. Pinion

Daxve wrote: »

They may not even get a full season order as the renewal has the episode number TBC. Rumour yesterday (before renewal) was that they’d only get 13 episodes to wrap it up as that’s all that’s needed to hit the 100 episodes required for syndication (there will be 88 episodes at the end of season 4)

100 episodes is not the number needed for syndication.

Chancer3001

What does syndication mean

McLoughlin

Chancer3001 wrote: »

What does syndication mean

You can sell a TV show to other stations other than the one that first showed the TV show. 100 was seen as a good number as you could show an episode a day during the week for 5 months but Star Trek only had 79 and that was syndicated to death after the show finished.

EoinMcLovin

Fox revealed their fall schedule and Gotham has been moved to mid season

Chancer3001

Does anyone else hate when they announce its the last season in advance ? Why not tell the writers but not the audience...

Now every episode I'm expecting something dramatic leading to the end of the arc

If I'm just watching free, I enjoy it way more.

It's why I never ever check how many episodes in a season.

Always expect a season finale to be dramatic. Better to just have a dramatic episode

jaxxx

The foreshadowing, omg the foreshadowing! There were a few bumpy moments alright (maybe slightly more than a few) but the goddamn setup for the final season!

Chancer3001

That was absolutely epic

Spoilers below here


Those creepy mask people at the end. That'll be cool

Bruce becoming the dark knight. Ras gone again.

How is selina crippled!?

What strange gonna do to riddler?

Penguin. What. A. Dick. Brilliant

And babs stealing every scene again as usual. Looks amazing too.

Also, how hot is talia. Character does sfa but She s gorgeous

Clareman

That was brilliant, just end it there, no need for anything else just leave it, you can see how the villians got to where they are, you can see the start of Batman, you can see how Gotham has descended into chaos.

Chancer3001

Introducing new mask characters is nearly unnecessary

Daxve

"creepy masked people" are rumoured to be Mother and Orphan or at least Gothams version of them.

Also in that final villians montage was Man Bat

Decent ending that would have served well enough as a series finale had it come to it.

It will be interesting to see how far they take the killing joke reference. I just can't see them leaving Silena with spinal damage but they have deviated quite far with Barbara Kean so there could be a different Batgirl in this continuity and the whole Mother and Orphan bit ties into that, not that it will ever get there with just 13 episodes left.

I really don't know what they've been trying to achieve with Ra's.

EPAndlee

The villains have truly risen

jaxxx

No way in hell are they going to leave Selena crippled, though that was a nice little nod to The Killing Joke I must say. The one thing I didn't like was the angle they took with Butch. Back when he was killed off and his real name was revealed I was like, "sh!!!!!!t Grundy". And then we got Grundy. Then Grundy no more.... for 5 minutes and now Butch no more again. Looking back I'm kinda surprised how I didn't see it coming, but like what now? Is Grundy gonna rise again or are they just gonna keep him dead this time? I did love the little setup they did of all the villains at the end, a small compilation of all Batman's villain gallery all claiming turf. The dawn of the Gotham that needs Batman. That was very well done I think.

Shane St.

really good season finale

CastorTroy

So finally got up to date (about 10 episodes over the past week) and looking forward to next season now, with all those teases.

Wonder if they'll get the third "Joker" out of Cameron as well. He's as good at portraying the multiple roles as Tatiana Maslany is in Orphan Black.
It is annoying WB won't let them actually use the Joker name, but we all know that's who he is. Both times.

Liked the 60's Batman theme at the concert.

How lucky were Barbara, Tabitha and all the Jeremiah's men have really bad aim and can't shoot them when standing still a few feet away.

Wonder if Mother and Orphan will somehow be Sofia and Martin.


And may I say at one point during this season, they probably had the hottest female cast of any tv series currently airing with the likes of Peyton List, Crystal Reed, Morena Baccarin, Jessica Lucas and Erin Richards

EPAndlee

Check out @anygivenchunday’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/anygivenchunday/status/1054381244140666880?s=09

EoinMcLovin

Season five starts on January 3rd and episode count increased from 10 to 12

BandMember

The next season is the final one, yes?