Ireland u20 6 Nations and Junior World Cup 2014

Morf

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yeah well there's always a few predictions that will go wrong, in case of McCarthy he just didn't want to play pro rugby.
WRT Marsh he prob is one of the most skilful young players around but size is the issue with him and its always been an issue with him from minis up and he has been smallest player on pitch but a real real talent.

Same height and only 4kg less than Gopperth. Hardly insurmountable to put that on at his age.

Hagz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Anyway to the 6 Nations I know its difficult to make predictions at the best of times when you have squad and team lists etc never mind when you've nothing really but how do people feel the 20s will do this year in 6 Nations and world cup?
The 19s last season seriously struggled against a huge English pack and though of course we'll be stronger than that the English this year will be buoyed by winning the world cup last year and they've around 10 of last years world cup winning squad underage again.

I'm pretty optimistic. The word I would use to define this group of players is athletic. Dooley, Leavy, Timmons, O'Donoghue, Robb, Kelleher, O'Loughlin, Byrne. Those guys are all really big in stature, but also really dynamic. The pack is fairly easy to predict bar hooker and tight-head, but the back-line is very hard. Every-time I try, I come out with such a heavy Leinster presence that I assume I'm being biased. But there is really great depth to our back options.

My main concern is our scrum. We didn't have great options at tight-head last season and it put us under a lot of pressure in the 6N. It didn't have much influence in the JWC, but remember we came against NZ, AUS and Fiji, none of whom put much emphasis on the scrum.

I expect the back-line we'll see in the 6N will change a lot come JWC. It's also good to see a few of the players racking up game-time in the UBL. Dan Leavy and Peter Dooley are two guys I expect to blow people away.

niallerm

Last year Adam Boland and Chris Taylor did a great job at TH.

This year we are pretty weak there at least at this moment, someone may emerge though.

Hagz

niallerm wrote: »

Last year Adam Boland and Chris Taylor did a great job at TH.

This year we are pretty weak there at least at this moment, someone may emerge though.

Adam Boland did a good job when he was finally brought in at the 6N, but Taylor was under a lot of pressure in the 6N.

niallerm

i was referring to the RWC.. Taylor was pretty good there

this year's TH might be Rory Burke or Saba, can't see any others right now..

Morf

Hagz wrote: »

Adam Boland did a good job when he was finally brought in at the 6N,

He just seemed to buckle every time transferring all the pressure onto his hooker. I know people wrote him off immediately because of his frame but I wasn't impressed.

Leinster5

Old Wesley vs NUIM Barnhall
UCD vs Old Belvedere
St. Mary's College RFC vs Blackrock College RFC
Lansdowne vs Dublin University
Terenure College RFC vs Clontarf

Some great games this weekend. Will be watching the UCD game tomorrow as it'll be an interesting game with a fair few Ireland reps involved.

wise7

UCD 40 Belvo 22. Very good game.

wp_rathead

O'Hagan had smashing game at outhalf for corinthians friday night

The Lost Sheep

Munster-Connacht Division 1 results:
Cork Con 65 Sundays Well 5, Highfield 5 Buccaneers 47 and UCC 34 NUIG-Corinthians 0

UCC, Buccaneers and UL Bohs lead at the top on 14, 14 and 13 points respectively with UCC having played four games while Buccs and Bohs have only played three games.
In the next round of games in this league, next Saturday, the fixtures are:
Garryowen v Cork Cons
Highfield v Galwegians
NUIG-Corinthians v UL Bohs
Shannon v Sundays Well
Waterpark v Buccaneers

Leinster5

wise7 wrote: »

UCD 40 Belvo 22. Very good game.

22-38 it finished. Was a quality game, and was closer than the scoreline suggests, having said that, UCD fully deserved the win. Timmins, Murphy & Fortune were the difference really, all 3 were superb and are all capable of making an impact for the Ireland 20s. Byrne and Dardis were also impressive. Not many stand-outs for Old Belvedere, I thought Brennan, Larkin, Allen and Rock were their best players by some distance. Looking forward to the latter stages now as there will be some cracking games.

wise7

I agree with your assessment of the UCD V Belvo game. Timmins is a superb athlete with a terrific sense of go-forward. Murphy gets through immense work and fortune is very effective on the floor. Byrne showed his wide range of skills including his powerful line breaking capability. Dardis is becoming very accomplished under the high ball and his counters were impressive. Great effort by Belvo with Allen, Brennan and Rock the stand-outs for me.

RobbieRuns

wprathead wrote: »

O'Hagan had smashing game at outhalf for corinthians friday night

You can say that again....... was at the game, if you ever ask can a young fella handle pressure, then that lad answered all questions. Have never actually witnessed a finish like that. Amazing stuff

niallerm

Incomplete list of players eligible for the 20s this year who started AIL games last weekend

1: Peter Dooley(Ldowne)
6: Dan Leavy(UCD)
9: Ryan Foley(Cork Con)
10: Sean O'Hagan(Corinthians)
10: Gearoid Lyons(Shannon)
13: Dan Goggin(YM)
14: Greg O'Shea(Shannon)

guapos

Brian Byrne Clontarf hooker, is he still eligible?

niallerm

guapos wrote: »

Brian Byrne Clontarf hooker, is he still eligible?

no, overage.

RuPi

I suppose a bit different up in Ulster but most of the U20's have played AIL with Jordan Grattan and Ross Adair starting in 1A for hinch! Whilst Ross Kane and Ben Alexander (Malone) Frankie Taggart and Mark Best (Quins) have all started in 1B.

wise7

niallerm wrote: »

Incomplete list of players eligible for the 20s this year who started AIL games last weekend

1: Peter Dooley(Ldowne)
6: Dan Leavy(UCD)
9: Ryan Foley(Cork Con)
10: Sean O'Hagan(Corinthians)
10: Gearoid Lyons(Shannon)
13: Dan Goggin(YM)
14: Greg O'Shea(Shannon)

Just because 18 year olds are capable of playing AIL doesn't necessarily mean they should play. Neither does playing AIL week in week out make anyone more eligible or qualified to play U-20's representative rugby. If there is competitive club U-20's rugby available then promising potential representative talent should be allowed develop at this level for their first year out of U-18's rugby, schools or clubs. Where there is not very competitive U-20's club rugby on offer,then playing AIL probably becomes inevitable for the stronger underage players in that region.

niallerm

no one is saying is makes them more eligible or qualified to play U-20's representative rugby, but it's certainly interesting to watch.

wise7

niallerm wrote: »

no one is saying is makes them more eligible or qualified to play U-20's representative rugby, but it's certainly interesting to watch.

Certainly is interesting and very compelling from spectators viewpoint. But the IRFU have done a pretty good job in providing sound player welfare for professional players by ensuring they are not over-played through a season. My point is that if it is possible, then 18 year olds should not be rushed through to AIL every week if it can be avoided. That first year is an all important time for adjustment and development. Not always possible, but great if it can be accommodated in the interests of letting promising young talent grow into it rather than being pushed a bit early. That's all I am saying.

The Lost Sheep

wise7 wrote: »

Just because 18 year olds are capable of playing AIL doesn't necessarily mean they should play. Neither does playing AIL week in week out make anyone more eligible or qualified to play U-20's representative rugby. If there is competitive club U-20's rugby available then promising potential representative talent should be allowed develop at this level for their first year out of U-18's rugby, schools or clubs. Where there is not very competitive U-20's club rugby on offer,then playing AIL probably becomes inevitable for the stronger underage players in that region.

If 18 year olds in first year out of u19 rugby are capable of playing AIL it should be better for them to play that than playing just u20s club rugby.
Playing AIL doesn't make someone more eligible or qualified to play representative u20 rugby but it helps rather than someone just playing u20 rugby as they are playing to a higher standard and if they do well their it helps over someone doing well at 20s.
Munster are only province with u18 rugby competitions and that's at youths level. the others are at 19s though different eligibility rules. In Leinster/Connacht they have stuck to Jan 1st(this season u19/senior cup eligibility is 1/1/95) while in Ulster u19 youths rugby and schools cup eligibility is 1/7/94)
While plenty emerge out of school and still underage for senior cup(u19 level) and have 2 years at u20 level if good enough and old enough they should play AIL over 20s even if u20 AIL is on offer.

wise7 wrote: »

Certainly is interesting and very compelling from spectators viewpoint. But the IRFU have done a pretty good job in providing sound player welfare for professional players by ensuring they are not over-played through a season. My point is that if it is possible, then 18 year olds should not be rushed through to AIL every week if it can be avoided. That first year is an all important time for adjustment and development. Not always possible, but great if it can be accommodated in the interests of letting promising young talent grow into it rather than being pushed a bit early. That's all I am saying.

Not saying youngsters should be rushed into playing AIL but if good enough they're old enough. Look at S O Hagan, G Lyons this season 18 and starring in AIL. They are growing into it by playing AIL and not being pushed into anything
Nenagh AIL side last season had 2/3 18 years involved for most of the season and none were pushed into things and were allowed grow into playing at that level.
Shannon have played 18 year olds plenty of times in AIL recently.
Young players are not rushed into AIL every week. Don't see that anywhere really even in student clubs where you only have players for a short amount of time due to nature of their clubs.

RobbieRuns

I think that you will find Ronan O'Gara in his new book beating the drum of the importance of getting the good young players into the AIL senior set up as quickly as possible and stating that regular AIL rugby is the way forward, not just academies or A games either as a progression to the provinces.

niallerm

most academy lads do get regular AIL time, 18/19 year olds are mostly not ready for it yet..

its_phil

niallerm wrote: »

most academy lads do get regular AIL time, 18/19 year olds are mostly not ready for it yet..

It's mainly in Leinster where there is massive emphasis on playing 20s, which is fine. In the other provinces, AIL is the natural step and most players are ready for it

RobbieRuns

its_phil wrote: »

It's mainly in Leinster where there is massive emphasis on playing 20s, which is fine. In the other provinces, AIL is the natural step and most players are ready for it

I agree completely.

The fact is that opportunites vary in different places. The point is however that certain players who are talented, get given the opportunity. Did ROG not play AIL at 19? did Drico play full international rugby at 19? James O'Connor played for Wallabies at 18? etc etc

It is rare to see such talent, but I do believe that the IRFU and particularly the clubs would never rush a player. They are all well focused on ensuring that their welfare is the most important thing. No one should be rushed, but when the time is right and the opportunity is given, it is up to the players to make the most of that opportunity.

The Lost Sheep

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think that you will find Ronan O'Gara in his new book beating the drum of the importance of getting the good young players into the AIL senior set up as quickly as possible and stating that regular AIL rugby is the way forward, not just academies or A games either as a progression to the provinces.

And he is right. Playing against seasoned AIL players will teach young players aspiring to be top pro players a lot about the game, school of hard knocks....

niallerm wrote: »

most academy lads do get regular AIL time, 18/19 year olds are mostly not ready for it yet..

Depends on the division as well. Division 2 and players will be ready much more but top Division 1A games and most players just out of underage rugby are not ready and need a season of under 20 or junior rugby under their belt

its_phil wrote: »

It's mainly in Leinster where there is massive emphasis on playing 20s, which is fine. In the other provinces, AIL is the natural step and most players are ready for it

Big emphasis on playing 20s in other provinces as well but Leinster clubs have such bigger numbers playing so have bigger squads etc for AIL level and harder to make AIL squads(in recent times anyway)

The Lost Sheep

Interesting that as we are talking about u20s and lads leaving school etc and playing rugby Rob Murphy has a podcast discussing this issue on knockon.ie
Im a paid up member and writer on the site but if you are not a paid up member you may need to pay to listen.(€5 a year)

http://www.knockon.ie/2013/11/13/podcast-20-club-rugby/

niallerm

UCD u20 team that beat Old Belvo 37-22

1 Ivan Soroka
2 Sean McNulty
3 James Harrison(overage for Ireland)
4 Oisin Tegeler
5 Gavin Thornbury(overage for Ireland)
6 Josh Murphy
7 David Fortune
8 Peadar Timmins
9 Conor McQuaid
10 Ross Byrne
11 Robert Keenan
12 Jack Hitchcock
13 Garry Ringrose
14 Jonny McDonnell
15 Billy Dardis

Two things of note:
1. Sean McNulty, started for Munster u18 and Ireland u18 last year.
2. James Harrison, was the Ulster Schools player of the year in 2012 for Methody. Older brother(Rory) starts at TH for UCD 1sts.

Also a good few eligible players missing for UCD, Ross Molony, Adam Byrne and Rory O'Loughlin to name just 3.

Bridge93

niallerm wrote: »

UCD u20 team that beat Old Belvo 37-22

1 Ivan Soroka
2 Sean McNulty
3 James Harrison(overage for Ireland)
4 Oisin Tegeler
5 Gavin Thornbury(overage for Ireland)
6 Josh Murphy
7 David Fortune
8 Peadar Timmins
9 Conor McQuaid
10 Ross Byrne
11 Robert Keenan
12 Jack Hitchcock
13 Garry Ringrose
14 Jonny McDonnell
15 Billy Dardis

Two things of note:
1. Sean McNulty, started for Munster u18 and Ireland u18 last year.
2. James Harrison, was the Ulster Schools player of the year in 2012 for Methody. Older brother(Rory) starts at TH for UCD 1sts.

Also a good few eligible players missing for UCD, Ross Molony, Adam Byrne and Rory O'Loughlin to name just 3.

There's also Nick McCarthy, Bobby Holland and Dan Leavy.

niallerm

Bridge93 wrote: »

There's also Nick McCarthy, Bobby Holland and Dan Leavy.

yeah knew a few guys were missing..

wish Holland hadn't given up rep rugby, serious SH. Right him far higher than McCarthy.

Leinster5

Old Belvedere play Lansdowne this weekend in the first game of the Super 6, Terenure also face Blackrock College RFC, will try make at least one of these games if I can.

UCD have a wealth of talent, still think there has to be something done in order to stop this UCD-Lansdowne domination of 20s club rugby, as it's hurting the game.

niallerm

Guys are going to go where they want to go, if I went to college at UCD i'd want to play for UCD.

Blackrock need to do a better job of getting lads coming out of school, Terenure too.

Leinster5

niallerm wrote: »

Guys are going to go where they want to go, if I went to college at UCD i'd want to play for UCD.

Well it doesn't help clubs like my own(Terenure RFC) to attract the quality cup players from the strong schools as the likes of UCD and Lansdowne are offering scholarships and money which is making them have a crazy amount of quality school players, while clubs like St. Marys, Old Belvedere & Blackrock RFC might be able to tempt 2 or 3 players with real quality if they're lucky. Just felt that the podcast by Knock on.ie had a lot of truth to it, and with so many quality players being bench or not involved in these two clubs, they soon lose interest and stop playing.

The Lost Sheep

Leinster5 wrote: »

Old Belvedere play Lansdowne this weekend in the first game of the Super 6, Terenure also face Blackrock College RFC, will try make at least one of these games if I can.

UCD have a wealth of talent, still think there has to be something done in order to stop this UCD-Lansdowne domination of 20s club rugby, as it's hurting the game.

There should be. Its talked about in podcast I posted a few days ago. did you give it a listen? what you think of the discussion?

5 games in Munster-Connacht this weekend. Fixtures can be seen a few posts up

niallerm wrote: »

Guys are going to go where they want to go, if I went to college at UCD i'd want to play for UCD.

Blackrock need to do a better job of getting lads coming out of school, Terenure too.

Things could be done much better and in ways that would benefit more players, more clubs and the sport in general
Some of the bigger clubs are getting 60+ 20s players at start of year and too many fade away from the sport after not making main team. Changes to whole structure including links between clubs + schools need to be made to ensure young lads stay in the sport

niallerm

can't stop a kid from taking a scholarship nor should you want to..

money has always been a factor and always will.. can't really be controlled in any manner.

can't force a kid to a club either.. by linking a school and a club..

clubs just need to do a better job at appealing to kids to join them..

The Lost Sheep

niallerm wrote: »

can't stop a kid from taking a scholarship nor should you want to..

money has always been a factor and always will.. can't really be controlled in any manner.

can't force a kid to a club either.. by linking a school and a club..

clubs just need to do a better job at appealing to kids to join them..

Very few get scholarships though and of course you cant stop anyone from taking won.
Money is a factor but ambition is the big issue.
Yes clubs need to do better but that is why there needs to be better links between clubs and schools all the way up from when kids are in first/second year and that players are given plenty of opportunities to play with the club that they started playing the sport at mini level or in the case of kids who attended feeder schools like willow and never were with a club then they get to play with a club and link to won for the first time. the drop off rate of players in rugby is way too high and that needs to change

irishbucsfan

I'd agree with that (niallerm). There are some clubs who just recruit far better than others, and it's an ability that hasn't been nearly fully developed yet. You also often see these programs being driven by certain individuals who are very good at coordinating them, and if they move club it dies away quite quickly. I'd even venture to say that it's driven by those individuals more so than money, but I wouldn't be sure of it. This is not just the case in Ireland, it's all over, and I'd doubt it's something that's confined to rugby either.

niallerm

I know plenty of lads who just weren't interested in the commitment it takes to play a sport post school.. priorities change.. just look at America, how many kids play there last ever game of American Football in high school? hundreds of thousands every year..

obviously more could be done to keep lads playing but let's not pretend there aren't many factors at play here.. me myself, I wasn't interested in playing at a level below the highest and I wasn't that good but the main reason was the injuries.. rugby was preventing me from doing so many other things I wanted to do

The Lost Sheep

niallerm wrote: »

I know plenty of lads who just weren't interested in the commitment it takes to play a sport post school.. priorities change.. just look at America, how many kids play there last ever game of American Football in high school? hundreds of thousands every year..

obviously more could be done to keep lads playing but let's not pretend there aren't many factors at play here.. me myself, I wasn't interested in playing at a level below the highest and I wasn't that good but the main reason was the injuries.. rugby was preventing me from doing so many other things I wanted to do

And that is an issue that needs to be looked at. No real links between clubs and schools and no immediate team to play for following on from leaving school is an issue
All sports have a drop off in participation numbers in the age's between 16 and 21/22 but rugby is not helping itself in the slightest in the way the schools and clubs go about their business.
There is so much more that could be done to keep people in the sport from introducing more club-school competitions where clubs play at end of school season competitions that are totally open and players can be kept in clubs.
Many people in the country have closer ties to their school than to any club which is mad as once you leave the school gate you can only be a supporter in the vast majority of cases as there isn't a role for you unlike all the potential roles for you in a club.

niallerm

another camp during the week..

Frank Taggart, Sean O'Brien, Oisin Heffernan, Jacob Walshe, Rory Moloney, Ryan Foley, Shane Airey, Darragh Moloney just a few involved

CGD

No doubt none of UCD, Lansdowne, Belvo or Trinity are giving out about other clubs they just get on with their business and make their squads as strong as possible. The myth out there is that there is endless money being thrown around which is absouletly false. Young lads will go where they want to go and the clubs above are very lucky first of all in their geography as their location suits people going to 3rd level colleges, secondly UCD's and Lansdowne's facillities are second to none we have had endless amounts of players leaving our club and going to the 4 clubs mentioned above because their pitch and gym is "savage" money never came into it nor were they offered any. Thirdly young lads like being involved with teams that are successful and the above teams are, the better players want more exposure and a chance to shine at the top level all of the clubs above offer that as well as plenty of other clubs as well.

Terenure after years of giving out and moaning have finally got their act together and seem to have retained a lot of lads from the school set up and they are and will continue to reap the benefits all the way to senior level, because people in that club finally stopped complaining and just got on with their own business and put a lot of time and effort into it. Blackrock should follow suit but they are still at the moaning and giving out stage. Greystones doing brilliant work and their teams get stronger every year but again hard work goes into it.

Basically clubs get what they put into it many above have dedicated individuals doing trojan work with their only reward seeing their club improve and doing well and that's the simple fact of it.! Over complicate it and analysis it all you want but as the mother said "empty vessells make the most noise" to many empty vessells around! I say this as a neutralbut an informed neutral all the same

CGD

niallerm wrote: »

another camp during the week..

Frank Taggart, Sean O'Brien, Oisin Heffernan, Jacob Walshe, Rory Moloney, Ryan Foley, Shane Airey, Darragh Moloney just a few involved

Any sign of the Connacht 10 O'Hagan?

its_phil

CGD wrote: »

Any sign of the Connacht 10 O'Hagan?

Injured himself in the Buccs Corinthians game. He was with 19s last time, a promotion is in order though

CGD

its_phil wrote: »

Injured himself in the Buccs Corinthians game. He was with 19s last time, a promotion is in order though

From reports you would think he would be a cetainty for the squad probably ahead of Mckeon at this stage as he doesn't seem to have played any rugby and don't think he was involved in this camp, he could possibly be injured?

The Lost Sheep

CGD wrote: »

No doubt none of UCD, Lansdowne, Belvo or Trinity are giving out about other clubs they just get on with their business and make their squads as strong as possible. The myth out there is that there is endless money being thrown around which is absouletly false. Young lads will go where they want to go and the clubs above are very lucky first of all in their geography as their location suits people going to 3rd level colleges, secondly UCD's and Lansdowne's facillities are second to none we have had endless amounts of players leaving our club and going to the 4 clubs mentioned above because their pitch and gym is "savage" money never came into it nor were they offered any. Thirdly young lads like being involved with teams that are successful and the above teams are, the better players want more exposure and a chance to shine at the top level all of the clubs above offer that as well as plenty of other clubs as well.

Terenure after years of giving out and moaning have finally got their act together and seem to have retained a lot of lads from the school set up and they are and will continue to reap the benefits all the way to senior level, because people in that club finally stopped complaining and just got on with their own business and put a lot of time and effort into it. Blackrock should follow suit but they are still at the moaning and giving out stage. Greystones doing brilliant work and their teams get stronger every year but again hard work goes into it.

Basically clubs get what they put into it many above have dedicated individuals doing trojan work with their only reward seeing their club improve and doing well and that's the simple fact of it.! Over complicate it and analysis it all you want but as the mother said "empty vessells make the most noise" to many empty vessells around! I say this as a neutralbut an informed neutral all the same

Why would the strongest clubs and the clubs where majority top players migrate to upon entering third level give out? Theyre doing very well out of current situation.
No over complicated talk/analysis in this thread on this issue. Simple changes could be made to make 20s grade stronger and the sport stronger

CGD

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why would the strongest clubs and the clubs where majority top players migrate to upon entering third level give out? Theyre doing very well out of current situation.
No over complicated talk/analysis in this thread on this issue. Simple changes could be made to make 20s grade stronger and the sport stronger

All clubs provincial or metro will find their own level as I say clubs that put the work in get rewarded lazy clubs or clubs who think they have an entitlement to get good players and talk about the old days will and are suffering There will always be so called top clubs the names may change but there will always be 4 or 5 top top clubs and no secret to their success hard work!

KJY

Anyone know the Buccaneers FB and no 8? Two super players, just wondering are they in contention for Ireland places. Also so the Georgian prob Saba play yesterday and really don't think he's that great. We'd a pretty scratch front row and they had no upper hand in the scrum

Hagz

KJY wrote: »

Anyone know the Buccaneers FB and no 8? Two super players, just wondering are they in contention for Ireland places.

Callum Boland is overage and I'm fairly positive Satchwell is too.

KJY

Hagz wrote: »

Callum Boland is overage and I'm fairly positive Satchwell is too.

I'm talking about the under 20s side, sorry

Hagz

KJY wrote: »

I'm talking about the under 20s side, sorry

Ah right. I have no idea about their u20 side. Do you have their names?