Bought a house with a ber of F

onzlo

Hi all, I know there is a ton of threads about upgrading your ber rating, but I would like some advice on my house and to tell me whether my plan so far is ok. Currently I has a rating of F and I would like at least a C3.

My head is literally wrecked looking at the different grants, insulation, heating controls, windows etc... And I was wondering if anyone could boil it down a bit for me to get a better idea of what to do.

Anyway, a few details: it's a 4 bed semi, built circa 1971. Roughly 1600sq ft, 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 2 sitting rooms (one will be made bigger and the other knocked into the kitchen), kitchen, utility, garage, hall. Front windows are old aluminium double glazed, rear ones are single glazed alu. The walls are cavity walls, the garage has a flat roof and the house roof is a typical A style roof...

So the plan so far is to rewire, re-plumb (replace the gun barrel with copper and insulate the pipes), put in triple glazed windows, new high efficiency oil burner with condenser, new heating controls (I was thinking that snazzy climote by electric ireland), trvs on all new radiators, insulate the cavity walls with them beads, insulate the hell out of the attic and the rest is aesthetics

So any recommendations or have I it fairly thought out? Also, I'm quite a young first time buyer which is the reason for all the questions :P

sinnerboy

Grants will contribute very little here. Work out what your realistic budget is first disregarding them. List all the works starting with must haves and ending with nice to haves.

K.Flyer

Put the budget emphasis on keeping the heat inside the house (insulation) rather than generating the heat.
While generating heat effeciently is important, the effort is lost on cutting any corners on insulating the house.

BryanF

how will you ventilate the house? the 70's house may not have background ventilation (wall vents) so when you put in the 3g windows, you'll potentially tighten up the air-tightness and causing greater chance of mould etc, also is there any chinmeys/open fires- prehap consider a stove but again consider ventilation carefully. - do consider whether you can live with hole in the wall vents, trickle vents or whether a demand controlled mechanical system is worth looking at while you're renovating anyway.

onzlo

Thanks for all the replies

@sinnerboy and K.Flyer. My budget is approximately 50-60k including finish. At least a third will be going on proper insulation and good windows and doors. An help at all to reduce the costs would be fantastic.

@BryanF. The house currently has wall vents put in place by the previous owner. What's the difference between wall and trickle vents? There are two chimneys, one will be blocked up and made a feature wall in the kitchen and the other will be raised and an insert (cassette?) stove will be put in. What I would prefer the most would be a vent that has minimal heat loss and adequate airflow in and out of the house. I was thinking of leaving the wall vents there and putting a breathable foam in it to reduce any wind noise and heat loss but still let the air pass through.

BryanF

onzlo wrote: »

What's the difference between wall and trickle vents?

google.ie;)

What I would prefer the most would be a vent that has minimal heat loss and adequate airflow in and out of the house.

demand controlled mechanical system - maybe 2k

I was thinking of leaving the wall vents there and putting a breathable foam in it to reduce any wind noise and heat loss but still let the air pass through.

that's a definite no no

sinnerboy

Take a look here

onzlo

sinnerboy wrote: »

Take a look here

Thanks sinnerboy, gave me a better idea of the costs

Anyway, I think the money for the hrv system would be better spent on better insulation and put the standard wall vents will do, shouldn't make too much of a difference anyway...

Oh just thought, can anyone recommend a oil burner that can heat the water and rads seperately or is that a fancy plumbing technique? Or at least a burner with an efficiency rating in the 90's?

Also can anyone recommend someone to do a ber assessment and to give me recommendations? Someone who covers the carlow area.

BryanF

onzlo wrote: »

Thanks sinnerboy, gave me a better idea of the costs

Anyway, I think the money for the hrv system would be better spent on better insulation and put the standard wall vents will do,

(btw i was not recommending hrv 'heat recovery ventilation' )

tedimc

re-plumb (replace the gun barrel with copper and insulate the pipes),

I may get shot down here for this - but why copper? The plastic pipe I've seen used in the past is far easier to install, doesn't require insulation (you may need to double check this) and is probably cheaper given the high price of copper at the moment.

onzlo

I will be putting qualplex down for it actually, just never thought of it when I was typing the list :P Thanks for reminding me!

fclauson

I would take a wholistic approach to this

Start by getting a ber or energy consultant on bored and perhaps get a photo done

Model the house and then work out where you will get the max return on investment

Saying things as you have done put in lots of insulation but then have open vents is madness

Spend time doing empirical mathematical modelling of the build prior to making any "Ashhha that will work " type decisions

I promise you it will be fun and you will get a better refurb at the end

Froststop

BryanF wrote: »

how will you ventilate the house? the 70's house may not have background ventilation (wall vents) so when you put in the 3g windows, you'll potentially tighten up the air-tightness and causing greater chance of mould etc, also is there any chinmeys/open fires- prehap consider a stove but again consider ventilation carefully. - do consider whether you can live with hole in the wall vents, trickle vents or whether a demand controlled mechanical system is worth looking at while you're renovating anyway.

The insulation company will do the ventilation as part of their contract as it's regulation, so don't waste money getting it done yourself. Sort heating first, followed by windows and doors, followed by insulation. The insulation company will do your BER cert so everything else needs to be done first.
If your unemployed the insulation can be done free through SEAI grants.

MicktheMan

Froststop wrote: »

The insulation company will do the ventilation as part of their contract as it's regulation, so don't waste money getting it done yourself.

Is it?

MicktheMan

Froststop wrote: »

Sort heating first, followed by windows and doors, followed by insulation.

Imo, you got it wrong way round!
It is best practice to spend on the house fabric first (air tightness/ insulation) and then look at supplying the reduced demand for heating

Froststop

MicktheMan wrote: »

Imo, you got it wrong way round!
It is best practice to spend on the house fabric first (air tightness/ insulation) and then look at supplying the reduced demand for heating

You are right but: "Air Tightness" is a completely different matter.
He has only mentioned insulation. The rads can be sized allowing for the insulation. I would actually size boiler without allowing for new insulation, it will be more efficient after as the house will heat faster resulting in shorter running times for the boiler.
The idea is he wants to achieve a higher BER. I assume as cost effective as possible & is not going to the expense of an air tight house. Built in 1971, it would cost a fortune in my opinion. Maybe on a new build.

I got my house done a few months back. I went through the SEAI.
The insulation company did their bit. They were followed a few days later by an inspector to do the BER. The new reg's are, 4" vents in all rooms, 5" vents in kitchen, utility (boiler fitted) and sitting room. 2" vents fitted along front and back sofits at approx 8" centres.

If he does insulation first the BER will be completed before he can get the rest of the work done.

It's more a case of following procedure to get everything to fall into place saving hassle and as much cost as possible on the refurbishment.
But at the end of the day it's a matter of choice.

I would: sort plumbing and electric's, windows & doors, insulation, repair rendering floors etc, decorate.

Froststop

MicktheMan wrote: »

Is it?

They have to sort wall vents as per SEAI reg's and made necessary changes to my existing vents or they won't get paid by SEAI. If there is no wall vents in the rooms they will drill them out.

If not going through SEAI then they may not, but will it be as per reg's and it could effect the BER rating not to mention house value.

BryanF

Froststop wrote: »

The insulation company will do the ventilation as part of their contract as it's regulation, so don't waste money getting it done yourself. Sort heating first, followed by windows and doors, followed by insulation.

have you heard of the energy hierarchy? the idea that one should deal with fabric first and heating last. And as other have stated take a holistic approach to any retro-fit.

The insulation company will do your BER cert so everything else needs to be done first.
If your unemployed the insulation can be done free through SEAI grants.

explain to us why you think its a good idea to leave the design of your ventilation strategy to the insulation installers? as others have asked why insulated and then place holes in the wall (please dont come back with 'its the seai', as there are other options)

Froststop wrote: »

The rads can be sized allowing for the insulation. I would actually size boiler without allowing for new insulation, it will be more efficient after as the house will heat faster resulting in shorter running times for the boiler.

not sure about that, it sounds kind of lazy to me

The idea is he wants to achieve a higher BER.

is it?

I assume as cost effective as possible & is not going to the expense of an air tight house. Built in 1971, it would cost a fortune in my opinion. Maybe on a new build.

really? when doing all that work to building envelop, would improving the air-tightness not be practical?

I got my house done a few months back. I went through the SEAI. The insulation company did their bit. They were followed a few days later by an inspector to do the BER. The new reg's are, 4" vents in all rooms, 5" vents in kitchen, utility (boiler fitted) and sitting room. 2" vents fitted along front and back sofits at approx 8" centres.

there are other options, you shouldn't discount them and neither should the OP, especially at design stage

Froststop

"explain to us why you think its a good idea to leave the design of your ventilation strategy to the insulation installers? as others have asked why insulated and then place holes in the wall"

I didn't say it was a good idea for them to design it because they won't. I stated what I have seen them do on numerous jobs. What designing is in making a 4" or 5" hole in a wall.
They are not designing a "ventilation system".

Does the same not apply to air tightness? regarding air circulation.
If it can be done in budget then great.

BryanF

Froststop wrote: »

What designing is in making a 4" or 5" hole in a wall.

none, thats my point. what does an insulation installer know about ventilation?

They are not designing a "ventilation system".

exactly. how much heat is lost through a 4" hole (multiplied by Xno of room vents) over the course of a winters day? (multiplied by X no heating days) is this worth considering when the OP is spending thousands on retro-fitting insulation, windows, boiler etc?

Does the same not apply to air tightness? regarding air circulation.

please explain

If it can be done in budget then great.

if i was on budget id leave sizing the boiler till after id considered my insulation, ventilation and air-tightness;)

have you considered broadening your outlook beyond the SEAI ? these may be of interest:

http://www.passivehouseacademy.ie/#!cpht-be-19-mar-2013-newry/c1239

http://www.lit.ie/HEATPlus/default.aspx

Froststop

"Does the same not apply to air tightness? regarding air circulation.
please explain"

It's a straight forward question! i.e. make the house Air tight and then fit a ventilation system for air circulation.

BryanF

Froststop wrote: »

"Does the same not apply to air tightness? regarding air circulation.
please explain"

It's a straight forward question! i.e. make the house Air tight and then fit a ventilation system for air circulation.

I prefer the term 'strategy', and ill reiterate: if your going to the trouble of doing (what i consider to be from the OP) a major retro-fit of a 70's house then the 'ventilation strategy' should be considered, which would include options other than holes in the external walls. And if air-tightness is improved then ventilation holes in the external fabric without mechanical control would seem counter productive.

looksee

We have much the same house but it was already an E with double glazing - front ok, back better. We did more or less what you are suggesting though the glazing was done. Flat roof room completely insulated, new boiler and piping, new cylinder, more insulation. We got it up to a high C, if the glazing was all the better kind we would just about have scraped a B. even a C is good for a 70's house.

We get all day hot water from an hour of heat a day, and the house is comfortable all year round.

Froststop

BryanF wrote: »

I prefer the term 'strategy', and ill reiterate: if your going to the trouble of doing (what i consider to be from the OP) a major retro-fit of a 70's house then the 'ventilation strategy' should be considered, which would include options other than holes in the external walls. And if air-tightness is improved then ventilation holes in the external fabric without mechanical control would seem counter productive.

This is what I was getting at. Is the mechanical control a full ventilation system ducted into the rooms/through the house or can you get something to fit into the wall vent holes only?
I see some new builds being tested a few times and they had a lot of trouble getting the result required by the engineers.
Do you know if it's harder to get an existing building done?

BryanF

Froststop wrote: »

Is the mechanical control a full ventilation system ducted into the rooms/through the house

heat recovery ventilation generally requires this type of system

or can you get something to fit into the wall vent holes only?

demand control mechanical extract systems
or positive input type systems

I see some new builds being tested a few times and they had a lot of trouble getting the result required by the engineers.

only because the client didnt appreciate the design/spec required or the builder didnt appreciate/get a decent spec or there was not an update to date arch/arch tech on board. its not easy - it took the guy about a week to install all tapes & membranes + half day after first fix test and another few hours after second fix test

Do you know if it's harder to get an existing building done?

depends on the level of work being carried out - we just finished a retro-fit where passive levels of air-tightness were specified = air-permeability results q50 1.06m3/(h.m2) @ 50pa - with some window seals still to be addressed, I'm reasonably happy with this result. anything below 2m3/(h.m2) is a good result for a retro. (this was with a demand control mechanical system costing in the region of 2k, with control on the room wall vents and extract on the wet rooms & kitchen)

Froststop

"demand control mechanical extract systems
or positive input type systems"

I haven't seen this type, have you any info on them or links?

BryanF

Froststop wrote: »

"demand control mechanical extract systems
or positive input type systems"

I haven't seen this type, have you any info on them or links?

try Google..

this is my preference in an existing/ retro-fit only (HRV should be used in new build)

'demand control mechanical extract systems'
Aereco are the main Irish suppliers

'positive input ventilation systems'
beam & drip-master are up first in google
http://www.seai.ie/EnergyMAP/Energy_Wizard/Action/Demand_control_ventilation_.html

I have no connection to any of the above

1930sRevamp

Hi Guys,

This is a really interesting thread with excellent input - thank you all :P

I'm at start of total refurb of 1930s solid cement 4 up 4 down house. House is totally gutted at present, roof being replaced, and extension being added. We've concluded on double glazed, but windows co are saying that vents in windows will ruin air-tightness/u-value etc of windows etc. This seems logical to me. However, I'm not sure how feasible it is to install external vents with solid cement walls, and am veering away from SEAI grant application as a result. I think I'll have a look at the links in the last post - it just seems like another chunk of money that I hadn't budgeted for. Builder is of the opinion that installing 100mm insulation on floor, and only 50mm, rather than 90mm, on walls "allows the house to breath", without need for whole ventilation system. What do you all reckon? I'm sitting in our rented house now, shivering with the cold from drafts from every angle, so its hard to imagine sitting in our new house, with lack of ventilation being a problem :cool:

Froststop

1930sRevamp wrote: »

Hi Guys,

This is a really interesting thread with excellent input - thank you all :P

I'm at start of total refurb of 1930s solid cement 4 up 4 down house. House is totally gutted at present, roof being replaced, and extension being added. We've concluded on double glazed, but windows co are saying that vents in windows will ruin air-tightness/u-value etc of windows etc. This seems logical to me. However, I'm not sure how feasible it is to install external vents with solid cement walls, and am veering away from SEAI grant application as a result. I think I'll have a look at the links in the last post - it just seems like another chunk of money that I hadn't budgeted for. Builder is of the opinion that installing 100mm insulation on floor, and only 50mm, rather than 90mm, on walls "allows the house to breath", without need for whole ventilation system. What do you all reckon? I'm sitting in our rented house now, shivering with the cold from drafts from every angle, so its hard to imagine sitting in our new house, with lack of ventilation being a problem :cool:

When you say solid cement do you mean no cavity's as in mass concrete walls?
If it is, it can be rectified, your looking at dry lining inside. External insulation may be an option. IMO the window vents would not be enough for proper ventilation.

BryanF would be the man here I'd say.

MicktheMan

1930sRevamp

I've just read your other posts and it seems to me that you are being led by 1)seai grants and 2)what your builder wants to do. Do you have any independent professional looking out for what is best for you?

Insulation, air tightness & ventilation should not be specified in isolation to each other. Get it right and you will have a very comfortable, healthy and affordable indoor environment. Get it wrong and you will get any combination of cold, drafty, damp, mouldy & costly indoor environment.

1930sRevamp

Froststop, yes, mass concrete walls, they're very thick.

Mick, thanks for your comments. In short, we've no independent professional acting for us-the builder is it! However, he's on fixed price contract, we're paying for materials directly, he's done great job on several other houses I know and is likely to get more stemming from my job, so hoping that his interests and ours are closely enough alligned to get a good result. I'm just on here trying to educate myself and get other people's opinions.