Bought a house with a ber of F

Andrew_Doran

MicktheMan wrote: »

Get it wrong and you will get any combination of cold, drafty, damp, mouldy & costly indoor environment.

It's absolutely key to get this right.

Either living in an "unlucky" dwelling or researching on PubMed and similar at your leisure will introduce you to the world of regular colds, asthma, sinus infections, GP/hospital visits and so on. Life's too short for that!

BryanF

1930sRevamp wrote: »

House is totally gutted at present, roof being replaced, and extension being added. We've concluded on double glazed, but windows co are saying that vents in windows will ruin air-tightness/u-value etc of windows etc. This seems logical to me.

logical! explain logical when you haven't appointed a independent consultant, and their is no mention of air-tightness measures, but your:

not sure how feasible it is to install external vents with solid cement walls,

Feasible! of course its 'feasible' it sounds like a simple core. and your

veering away from SEAI grant application as a result.

in to the arms of your 'BS talking builder'. ill give you an example of how i know this:

and only 50mm, rather than 90mm, on walls "allows the house to breath",

CONCRETE WALLS dont breathe! he's have a laugh

without need for whole ventilation system. What do you all reckon?

you need background ventilation. its in the regs: http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

I'm sitting in our rented house now, shivering with the cold from drafts from every angle, so its hard to imagine sitting in our new house, with lack of ventilation being a problem :cool:

'imagine' this:

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

Either living in an "unlucky" dwelling or researching on PubMed and similar at your leisure will introduce you to the world of regular colds, asthma, sinus infections, GP/hospital visits and so on. Life's too short for that!

Froststop wrote: »

When you say solid cement do you mean no cavity's as in mass concrete walls?
If it is, it can be rectified, your looking at dry lining inside.

what about the thermal bridges at every internal wall junction etc, and the rik of mould behind the drylining?

External insulation may be an option.

a better option

IMO the window vents would not be enough for proper ventilation.

agreed

MicktheMan wrote: »

1930sRevamp
I've just read your other posts and it seems to me that you are being led by 1)seai grants and 2)what your builder wants to do.

shocking isint it. and will this type of job get any better regulated next April, im not sure..

Insulation, air tightness & ventilation should not be specified in isolation to each other.

to late, by simply

1930sRevamp wrote: »

hoping that his interests and ours are closely enough alligned to get a good result.

best line ive heard in a long time:D

Get it right and you will have a very comfortable, healthy and affordable indoor environment. Get it wrong and you will get any combination of cold, drafty, damp, mouldy & costly indoor environment.

i agree with Mick here and if you're as you say:

1930sRevamp wrote: »

just on here trying to educate myself and get other people's opinions.

then take Mick's and Mine.

ill say no more on thread as the topic has veered towards a poster who needs a full spec. something that should not be given on a forum

fclauson

1930sRevamp wrote: »

Froststop, yes, mass concrete walls, they're very thick.

Mick, thanks for your comments. In short, we've no independent professional acting for us-the builder is it! However, he's on fixed price contract, we're paying for materials directly, he's done great job on several other houses I know and is likely to get more stemming from my job, so hoping that his interests and ours are closely enough alligned to get a good result. I'm just on here trying to educate myself and get other people's opinions.

I have said it before the "asha it'll be ok" is not a way to manage a build

you have to have empirical measurement and calculations to ensure the money you are spending will give you the return you looking for

looksee

For the first time ever, when we had our heating/insulation etc job done, I employed a project manager. In the end the job was done efficiently, in the right order, on time and cost less - even including his fee - than I would have paid otherwise. The plumber was excellent in the work he did, but a chancer on pricing, he was kept (mostly) in line. The whole job was done within 5 days.

I am pretty competent in knowing what needs to be done - though being female is not helpful in dealing with tradesmen - the project manager removed a whole layer of arm-chancing because the tradesmen knew that he would be looking for workers again, and they knew he knew what he was talking about. And he was male :rolleyes:

fclauson

looksee wrote: »

..- though being female is not helpful in dealing with tradesmen ..

I am not sure the inimitable mrs fclauson was more feared than I was !!!

looksee

Ah well I was doing diy in the (ahem) seventies and eighties when I would go into the builders providers and say ' I want a six inch bevel ended widget' and the assistant would suck his teeth and say 'what does he want it for'... I'm looking a little older and more bullyable now!

1930sRevamp

Guys,

thanks for your responses, although one of them is a lot more aggressive & sneering than I think is necessary! I do not work in construction, will probably never do a renovation again, so it should be easy to understand why it is so difficult for me separate BS from fact.

Who do I get to do emphirical testing to make sure my money is spent wisely? Engineers, BER assesser??
Who do I get to do emphirical measurements to make sure I've the right levels of insulation?

BryanF

1930sRevamp wrote: »

aggressive

perhaps, but given the statements made justified imo

sneering

i survey homes for homeowners who took your lax approach at construction stage and i have found more often than not they have outragous, fuel, comfort & even health associated issues from poorly designed and constructed buildings. I was not sneering but more irate at your builder and ulitmately your lack of caution in listening to him

I do not work in construction, will probably never do a renovation again,

exactly - get a professional arch involved in design and specify

so it should be easy to understand why it is so difficult for me separate BS from fact.

exactly

Who do I get to do emphirical testing to make sure my money is spent wisely? Engineers, BER assesser??

architect/arch tech to spec possibly a Qs to review builder quotes

Who do I get to do emphirical measurements to make sure I've the right levels of insulation?

architect/arch tech who does BER's and has an understanding of hygrothermal analysis
see here for retro-fit draft guidelines
http://www.nsai.ie/NSAI/files/45/458e3af7-babf-4be8-92f3-cc02377b7f4d.pdf

sinnerboy

1930sRevamp wrote: »

thanks for your responses, although one of them is a lot more aggressive & sneering than I think is necessary!

Reminder - from the forum Charter

1.1 This board is intended for discussion of Construction & Planning issues, by fellow users, and as a place to openly exchange tips and advice for free i.e. no one must seek to gain personally, professionally or financially from their participation in the forum . It is not a consultancy service and it is strongly advised that you always appoint your own professional advisor(s). Be aware that being an open public forum you may not always get exactly the response you would hope for. You will find that there are plenty of posters who will help you here but if you don't like some posts or posters try to pass over them .

1930sRevamp

Hi Guys,

BryanF, thank you for your response. I read your first one late at night in bed, and was probably more sensitive to the response than upon second reading was necessary. It is extremely over-whelming delving into a project, when admittedly, I have no idea what I am doing or who to believe. I've already has a QS price everything, so I'll find an arch tech to advise on insulation, windows & ventilation.

On the upside, the builder (having only started last Monday) has the whole place stripped out, roof off, site cleared and plans to be working on re-building by next week.

BryanF

1930sRevamp wrote: »

Hi Guys,

BryanF, thank you for your response. I read your first one late at night in bed, and was probably more sensitive to the response than upon second reading was necessary. It is extremely over-whelming delving into a project, when admittedly, I have no idea what I am doing or who to believe. I've already has a QS price everything, so I'll find an arch tech to advise on insulation, windows & ventilation.

On the upside, the builder (having only started last Monday) has the whole place stripped out, roof off, site cleared and plans to be working on re-building by next week.

when the construction is ahead of the design/specification, decisions CAN get made without due consideration.

I know this from instances where (for example) a site decision to redo a roof is agreed between the builder & client without the arch & QS having time to consider the details - the result is generally the details are not as good as they could have been and any bargaining on price is more difficult.

btw I wish you the very best with your build, your experience will no doubt have its ups & downs, but enjoy it!

adam88

BryanF wrote: »

how will you ventilate the house? the 70's house may not have background ventilation (wall vents) so when you put in the 3g windows, you'll potentially tighten up the air-tightness and causing greater chance of mould etc, also is there any chinmeys/open fires- prehap consider a stove but again consider ventilation carefully. - do consider whether you can live with hole in the wall vents, trickle vents or whether a demand controlled mechanical system is worth looking at while you're renovating anyway.

Regards ventilation what's the difference between the above. Pros and cons. Having good vents in the windows. Would that keep the seai crowd and ber assessor off my back. Not real interested in putting 4 inch holes in my walls

BryanF

adam88 wrote: »

Regards ventilation what's the difference between the above. Pros and cons. Having good vents in the windows. Would that keep the seai crowd and ber assessor off my back. Not real interested in putting 4 inch holes in my walls

• the seai wont be 'on your back'
• you must comply with part F Building regs
• IF your window vents provide the required room ventilation, they should be kept open.
• day time purge ventilation/ night time habitable room ventilation may still be required

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87037370&postcount=7

adam88

BryanF wrote: »

• the seai wont be 'on your back'
• you must comply with part F Building regs
• IF your window vents provide the required room ventilation, they should be kept open.
• day time purge ventilation/ night time habitable room ventilation may still be required

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87037370&postcount=7

It's only a renovation I'm doing. Must I still comply

BryanF

adam88 wrote: »

It's only a renovation I'm doing. Must I still comply

there is a general section that you should comply with yes

have you got some one overseeing this reno? arch/qs/eng? they will confirm what requirements need to be met

1930sRevamp

Hi All,

Just to update all on my progress. Thankfully, we got the whole job wrapped up mid-December, and moved in, in time for Santa!

We bought a 1930s solid masonry house, and knocked it back to the bare walls. We took up the floors, and put 72.5mm foil backed insulation on the floors, (12.5m is plasterboard I think), then re-poured concrete on the floors. We put the same on the walls, and battoned it on at 400mm gaps. We put in approx. 30mm of knauff in the gaps of the battons on all external walls, and put plaster board against the old internal walls, just so they'd all have the "new" look. We spent a long time deliberating over windows, and got sliding sash u-pvc double glazed without bored vents, in the end. We put in solar panels (got 3 packs of 10, if that makes sense), and have yet to test these. We put in a Grant boiler, along with a wood pellet stove. We have bored vents (2 in kitchen, 1 in kitchen and one in all wet rooms) for ventilation. We put on a new roof, and put in whatever the going rate for attic insulation is with knauff rockwool.

We got a BER certificate done recently, and the house went from a G rating (the roof was partially collapsed when we bought it), to a B2. We were delighted. On a practical level, we're still figuring out the heating system. If you could call it a problem, it is that the house is too warm. Everyone wears t-shirts etc. in the house, and the kids regularly run around with less on! We're finding that even a 2 or 3 degree difference outside, means that having the pellet stove on the lowest level 1, makes the house too warm. The temperature is ideal for lazing about on the couch, but once you get up to sweep the floor, tidy up, or cook, we need to open windows to let heat out. I think during the summer, we'll probably have to have windows open permanently, which brings its own concerns. We have 3 kids under 5, and sliding sash windows, so I don't feel 100% at ease, that the kids aren't in danger with the windows open. There are restrictors on the windows, but definitely, the opening gap is more than ample for my 2 or 1 year old to climb out. It probably means we'll have to put a baby-gate up to prevent access to whatever room we leave the window open in (just something to consider, seeing as we presumed any window type would be 100% safe these days and didn't really consider the practical usage of the windows). Overall though, we're thrilled with the results, and certainly all the stress and nightmares were worth the hassle.

Grant wise, our builder did some fast talking, and convinced us not to apply for the insulation grants, on the basis that the SEAI standards are too high for insulation, and the house would be far too uncomfortable to live in with those levels. I'm not convinced that this was true, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it now. Re the solar panels, the plumber convinced us that 30 panels was not enough for the SEAI grant, and that we'd need to put up 60. We told him to go ahead to put up the additional 30, but then he came back with another excuse, that we'd have too much hot water, and its illegal to have a run-off pipe of hot water into your surface water waste. This stank of BS, but bottom line, we were too exhausted to fight anymore, and ended up discontinuing the application for the solar grant. We applied for the BER grant and the central heating grant, and had the payment in the bank account a week later (we submitted the docs on the last date of the grant period). It was so easy, that I was annoyed with myself for swallowing BS from the builder and plumber regarding the other two categories.

Anyway, we're moving on the garden now, so that's much less of a big deal, and I don't really care if it never gets done, although my husband is all about it!!

Thanks everyone for your help and guidance on here.:) It was great to try to read snippets on here, so I could try to educate myself as best I could, so I could haggle and debate with the trades when needed.